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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:05 PM
Original message
Nader running? Great News. Here's why...
He will pull votes from Bush leaning Greens and otherwise non-voters.

I cannot believe there are Democrats who would vote for Nader after all that we have been through with Bush, since the Florida scams and the SCOTUS coup.

Last time he got 2.8 million votes, of which 2 million might have gone to Gore. He will pull less than a million votes this time - getting them from those who would have voted for Bush.

Greens who vote for Nader would never have voted Dem in any case.

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salinen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Bush leaning Greens!
Is there such an animal?
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KissMyAsscroft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yeah, ok dude!


Back to the drawing board!
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Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
28. God, that phrase makes me laugh hysterically!
Bush-leaning Greens! Bush-leaning Greens! Has anyone seen the Bush-leaning Greens?
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EXE619K Donating Member (717 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. You might want to re-consider the "Bush leaning Greens" bit....
However, You are partially right..I think.

There are "I hate Dems and GOP" crowd and they could make a difference.

I call these people..."The Jesse Ventura" party....at least here in Minnesota.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Champion Jack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. "Ralph Nader is like a saint coming down to earth and live amongst us"
Good one!!!

ROFLMAO!!!!!!

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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
5. Ralph addressed this in his Commondreams post
basically he pointed out the incumbent party voters were the ones that sought the 3rd party. In 2000 that would have been the Dems, now the Pubs.
And if, and that is a BIG IF his theory is right, he will have been hated by the Dems and then loved by them in 2004 for the damage he causes to the other side.
But what would such an outcome prove if this scenario works out? His thesis of the 2 parties being indistinguishable in the long run, and the need for a 3rd...
:shrug:

but you are right, Dems have had it with St. Ralph.

peace,
dp

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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. my bad, i meant Nation article/letter
in Counterpunch
http://www.counterpunch.org/nader02192004.html

appropriately, the 13th paragraph down.

sorry,
dp
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
6. ABB or you are GOP
Its that simple. Anyone who votes for Nader will be just as responsible for allowing our kids to die and be maimed over there as anyone else. bring the troops home, vote Bush out.
ABB


http://www.bringthemhomenow.com
http://www.mfso.org
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BillZBubb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. Well said, Mari333!
A vote for ANYONE but the Democratic nominee is a vote for Bush*.

I will treat anyone who tells me they didn't vote for Bush* or the Democratic nominee as a Repug stooge. They deserve as much contempt as a Bushie*. The stakes are too high this time for any game playing.
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Woodstock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. Agree, this is a matter of life or death
Leave your ego at the door and vote Democratic this time.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #6
20. But the front runners
voted for war.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. logical disconnect ?
:shrug:
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. So?
Voting for war is not the same thing as initiating it and pushing it in the first place.

No one candidate is perfect. But ANY Democrat is better than ANY Repukes OR Nader.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
7. Bush leaning Greens?
snorf. :eyes:
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Bush-leaning Greens: as rare as the "missing link," I'd say......
hmmmmm, so much for that argument...
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #12
33. Bush-leaning Greens is not a joke. See Selection 2000.
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 06:21 AM by TruthIsAll
In Selection 2000, it is estimated that about 2/3 of Green voters would have gone to Gore, the remainder to Bush. Of courde, some would have stayed home and not voted.

So there were anywhere from 500,000 to 1 million Bush-leaning Greens. That's a fact.

You have had your fun. But remember:

TIA
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Woodstock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Environment-hating Greens, for sure
Edited on Fri Feb-20-04 10:46 PM by Woodstock
Anyone who would willfully let Bush remain in office by voting for someone who can't win hates the environment.

Bush hates the environment.

I'm seeing some leaning here.
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Orangepeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
8. Hopefully, he'll make our candidate LOOK less liberal
Ideally, Nader will get very few votes from progressives who don't want bush re-elected, but will give voters in the mushy middle an excuse to vote for our candidate by making him look more centrist.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
10. Stupid Raphie
I don't think the Green Party will accept him.

Sorry Ralphie, we're having something called a PRIMARY. Have you ever heard of it?
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RowWellandLive Donating Member (531 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
14. "Bush leaning Greens"
:wtf:
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
17. Depends on the party.
If the Green Party accepts him again as their candidate then I have no respect for them, and I am very close to registering Green. If he decides to run Reform, Libertarian or whatever semi-facist party suits him, I'm all for it. To bad old Ross Perot won't try again as well.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Pissed off Repukes will cast a protest vote for Ralph Rotten
Those who would never vote Dem now have a chance to vent..
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devinsgram Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
19. He claims he wants to help the people,
by giving them another choice which is all well and good. I just don't understand why he can wait till we get rid of *. What part of that doesn't he get. We need as much help as possible and he will only hinder the process. The only thing I can figure out is his ego is bigger than his brain.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
21. "Bush-leaning Greens"? Dude! Don't bogart that fatty!
Pass it around, it must be some wild-assed shit!

Oh! I get it! Kind of like a Green version of Zell Miller, right?

This is what will happen. They will ignore Howard Dean and stay home in those states where King Ralph fails to get on the ballot. "I'm sending a 'message'..."
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
23. With your permission, daveskilt
The following was posted as a new thread in GD, and was locked by moderators as a dulicate. I think daveskilt post deserves to be aired and discussed. I copied the following from the locked thread.

Reasons Nader running is a GOOD thing.

1. Huzzah for democracy - 2 parties only was always a bad idea. (see simpsons episode with kang and kronos posing as bob dole and bill clinton)

2. He can be the attack dog. He can say anything about Bush knowing that it isnt going to alter his chances of actually winning.

3. The repubs are going to have to deal with him on some level.

4. In swing states anyone informed enough to vote for Nader is informed enough to know that in their state they need to beat bush and vote dem this time (I'm assuming that nader voters would want rid of bush as much if not more than dems)

5. Nader brings people out to the polls who may not have voted (again huzzah for democracy) he gets people interested in issues that they care about that are often neglected - many of those people will hear his message and think - hey this bush guy really is awful on issues I care about, I will show up and vote this time (maybe for nader maybe for the dem, but not bush) or some who would have voted bush will hear Nader and decide not to.

6. Will he pull some dem voters? yes probably. but after 2000 I find it unlikely that florida or NH voters will risk it - states like Utah which will vote republican no matter what (I wonder what would happen if Hilary Clinton ran for president as a republican. I think many scannersesque head explosions in Utah would result. they would have no idea what to do ) - sure go vote Nader.

7. He can help keep the democratic party honest and not bush lite. He pulls support if the dems dont stay in touch with the left base.



I really don't see a reason for the anti-Nader hysterics. Is the Democratic party sooo weak that a single man can destroy it. If Nader's message is strong enough to destroy the Democratic Party, then we have a REAL PROBLEM.



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BillZBubb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. You need to understand why we have a real problem with Nader
I really don't see a reason for the anti-Nader hysterics. Is the Democratic party sooo weak that a single man can destroy it. If Nader's message is strong enough to destroy the Democratic Party, then we have a REAL PROBLEM.

You apparently don't understand non-linear systems. Small actions can produce huge repercussions.

Nader's message won't destroy the Democratic party. He's a flake and a vast majority of Democrats know that. Unfortunately, though, some who might otherwise vote for the Democrat will vote for Nader--that is inevitable in spite of what you think. Others might not vote at all since Nader will repeat the LIE that there is no difference between the Democrats and the Repugs.

The Democrats message is plenty strong, but Democrats suffer from key electoral disadvantages: the have less money to get the message out, they are not the favorites of the corporate media so their message gets distorted, and their voters lack the fanaticism of the right.

What all that means is a close election is likely. What Nader will do is pull marginal votes from the Democratic presidential candidate. Since the elections in many states might be decided by a few thousand votes, Nader can tip that state to Bush*.


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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. OK. so let's kill Ralph...
...to save the Democratic Party.

What you don't understand is that Ralph is NOT the problem.
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BillZBubb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Nader is ONE PART of the problem
I pointed out to you three of the biggest problems: Money, Media, and Intensity.

Those make for a close election. Nader then flips it to Bush*.
This really isn't that hard to understand.
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bushwakker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
24. Environmentalists for Bush?
pretty small group.
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brainwashed_youth Donating Member (640 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
30. HAHAHAHA!!!!
I want what you're smoking
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wellstone_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. "Bush* leaning Green"
I honest to god laughed until I cried.
I am often amused on DU but this was side-splitting hilarious!
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Ksec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
32. I agree the votes for Nader will come from repukes
who are dissatisfied with bushawol and his failures. Im not worried the slightest bit about Nader and he may be a big plus for us by pulling votes away from the idiotrepukes. Theyre the ones who are pissed about his lack of leadership. Theyre also the ones who will vote for Nader as a protest vote.
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Robin Hood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 06:21 AM
Response to Original message
34. All right!
put down the bong and enjoy the high.
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