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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 02:37 AM
Original message
Bill Maher blames outsourcing on Democrats
follow this logic.

He says that the reason companies are hiring people in India is because those people can actually do math.

Why can't Americans do math? Because you can't fire American schoolteachers. And whose fault is that? Unions! And who supports the unions? Democrats!

So if you've lost your job to an Indian making two bucks an hour, it's because of Democrats.

Sometimes I just want to punch that asshole.
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wtf Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 02:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. Are you sure
he wasn't using sarcasm to make a point about our failing education system?
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. no, not at all!
he was being very serious and getting himself all worked up about it.

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maveric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. If he was truly serious then he has finally gone over to the dark side.
ala his buddy Dennis Miller.
Are the bu$hitas paying him to turn or threatening him to?
Or both?
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
36. No, he was disgustingly serious
so I turned it off. I always thought he was an arrogant egotistical jerk and last night confirmed it.

I'm turning the friggin' tube off, AGAIN.
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glarius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
55. Ive always thought his reasoning is muddled...he thinks he's smarter than
he really is....IMO
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 02:41 AM
Response to Original message
3. Bill has hammered on Republicans for months
I will cut him a little slack. But if his solution to education problems is vouchers then he can kiss my ass!
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mot78 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
4. Clenis Clenis Clenis!!!!
Bill's arguement makes as much sense as blaming the Clenis for everything.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 02:46 AM
Response to Original message
6. There are plenty of Americans who are good at math.
There is no shortage of American computer programmers.

Companies prefer Indian computer programmers because of lower-wages, not because they're better at math.
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. it has a little bit to do with math
or we'd outsource all the tech jobs to Mexico.
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SilasSoule Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #11
22. What do you mean by that?
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blurp Donating Member (769 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
41. Yeah, and plenty that aren't -- even in the programming profession
There is no shortage of American computer programmers.

Companies prefer Indian computer programmers because of lower-wages, not because they're better at math.


I once worked with a programmer that had to be given the formula to compute the distance between two points.

It included a square root symbol and he asked me seriously: "what does that mean?"

I'm not joking.

I then asked him if he even had a high school diploma. He said "of course!"

Now how does someone get out of high school never knowing what a square root symbol looks like?


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scarface2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #41
51. that s a lie...
i was there..this freeper is jive!!!!!!!!!!
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ngGale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 02:47 AM
Response to Original message
7. He's been hanging out with Ann Colter too much...
she is getting to him. In the South we were lucky to work for 1.25 an hour at one time. Unions are not big in the South, you get fired for that.
I like to see him and Ann sew fitted sheets. That's when I decided I had to go to college. Motivation!
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lucidmadman Donating Member (551 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 02:58 AM
Response to Original message
8. He self-identifies as a Libertarian...
...can you get any more stupid than that?
I'm sure he'd like to get rid of that pesky, intrusive Pure Food and Drug Act so the 'free market' could reign and poison food would be available to responsible citizens...Bill Maher is a turd.
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formernaderite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #8
33. He self-identifies as a small "l" Libertarian, but voted for Nader...
...last election.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
9. bill maher can be an ass
and i'm tired of always blaming teachers also. parents need to make sure their kids are doing the work. i know some parents who never kept a watch over their kids progress. you can't blame the teachers on that. also, for kids who need extra help, we should fund programs to help them here. if it means staying after school for tutoring or whatever. public education should provide that. and make sure parents meet with teachers.
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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 04:23 AM
Response to Reply #9
21. Well, it sounds reasonable, except
Parents are so tired when they get home from working too damn hard that they have little energy left for helping their children. They're lucky to be able to feed them a meal and get them ready for bed, let along spend hours trying to tutor them on something they should be learning in school.

I think you're wrong. We need to pay teachers more and lift the requirements and have better teachers, with teacher's helpers to go around and check on children having problems, etc. The answer is simple. Put more money in education and make sure that the money is used wisely. Pay teachers $100,000 a year and gosh, darn, you'll get higher qualified teachers, and the ones that aren't will rush to get more education to qualify for those salaries. Plus, there is a lot wrong with the education that teachers get. I experienced this first hand in college. Their art education was pitiful, and they had lousy course work in math and history. It barely covers the basics.
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cyclezealot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. My wife is a teacher.
She tells me stories of student motivation. The turn over rate for teachers is enormous.She catches her kids gambling in a rooms' corners, fondling the girls' w/o the objection of them, sleeping. Swearing..Complaining the movies she shows once a month are not fun and related to boring stuff. Kids have to be entertained today, in order to remain interested. I have heard that from more than one teacher friend.
We don't need to hire teachers but clowns up there to keep them laughing. Send the kids to the Asst.Principal you get no support. Told how to treat sassy/nasty kids.."Talk nice to them."
Kids reflect our culture and that is compative, nasty, disprespectful,insolence. Just find and walk through almost any high school..Think you are going to find sugar and spice you are living in a dream world. For all that just ease drop on a group of kids outside the mall. you will get an ear full.I have. I can't imagine being a teacher..
100 Grand..Rather work in a mental health ward..There you can administer drugs.
In fact teachers now must be informed of kids' drug prescreptions.They have to know their doseages in an attempt to understand kids' behavior should they go off the deep end.
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Accurate and then some. I have a masters degree is elementary education
can do 4 languages and English, have a bachelor's degree in liberal arts, and couldn't get a job in public schools because I was "over-qualified", i.e., my salary cost too much compared to another teacher with a newly printed bachelor's degree and no experience.

It's about money, not quality.
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blurp Donating Member (769 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #27
42. And that's why the union is to blame
can do 4 languages and English, have a bachelor's degree in liberal arts, and couldn't get a job in public schools because I was "over-qualified", i.e., my salary cost too much compared to another teacher with a newly printed bachelor's degree and no experience.

It's about money, not quality.


More likely the union contract would make it impossible to pay you what you are worth.

Most of the salaries are based on seniority and not merit. That's typical union.

The only way you could get paid what you are worth is if everyone else got a big raise so they would be paid as much as you. That's the only way the union will take it.

Now that would be REALLY expensive. ie ain't gonna happen.


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wellstone_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #42
53. Hmmm... not in right to work states it isn't
I live in a "right to fire state" and so unions are not a factor at all and still, in the name of "merit" the same hierarchical pay rates exist. It does make it too expensive to hire a *good* teacher than a new grad of any teaching program.

And, I know this because I am largely responsible for monitoring that policy. All in the name of the almighty buck.

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Momof1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
52. Maher's sister is a teacher. And he said that before he made
this statement. He is pissed about what is going on.
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einniv Donating Member (260 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
10. The more I listen to Maher the more I think he is a sloth.
Sexist.
Racist.
And now an anti-labor elitist.

His "ride with bin laden" book made me grimmace.
The only thing I share in common with him is a love of open debate and a bit of the 'ole magic leaf ... if you know what I mean.
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raysr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. He has been having
trouble getting a gig like Miller. To get back on I gue$$ you have to ki$$ a$$!
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The Traveler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 03:04 AM
Response to Original message
12. Bill's a liberal
But he's not a sheep like person. He looks at things, forms an opinion, and puts it out there. Hey, people, we do screw up things from time to time. The public education system is screwed up. Everyone knows it. And, yes, we Democrats had a role in screwing it up. (Of course, the Repigs haven't helped. Did ya know that while "evolution" is back in the curriculm of Georgia, the Big Band Theory is out? That one didn't make the press ... but discussion of the physics of the origin of the universe is now out in this state.)
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. The public school system is as good as you and your parents
make it. If it means more to you to pay a dork
fifteen thrillion dollars to hit a ball and a
teacher fifteen seven as a starting wage, then
you get what you pay for. Frankly, anyone who
wants to blame the educational system for the
crap state of the country can kiss my chalk
covered ass. Look to your own work habits, look
to your parents, look to your interest and then
and only then look to the teachers.

I had to be expert in eight subjects and teach
every dork that came in. I have a knack for tough
kids, kids with arrest records and crap by fourth
grade and did fine. Why? Because his teacher and
the other fifteen special ed kids they gave me
in my regular ed classroom got a tough old broad
to make them toe the line.

Teachers are heroes. If you can read my letter,
you owe one a hug.
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The Traveler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. The problem is not with teachers
Sorry if you took it that way. Most teachers are good people. However, they are EXTREMELY underpaid. Which adds stress to their lives. Which makes it harder for them to accomplish a difficult task. They are often under protected. They are often unable to achieve enough discipline in the class room to actually teach. They have to deal with the prospect that some poor screwed up kid is going to show up with Daddy's gun and blow someone away.

The whole process has become highly politicized. Look at what is happening in Georgia right now.

My rebuke is not aimed at teachers, though perhaps their union has not always acted wisely. My rebuke is aimed at the SYSTEM itself ... the nation's efforts to "improve" it have often been cloaked in either left wing or right wing barely hidden agendas.

Teachers are caught in the middle of this shit. I know. I used to be one.
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blurp Donating Member (769 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
43. And many are underpaid -- why?
Sorry if you took it that way. Most teachers are good people. However, they are EXTREMELY underpaid.

Many are underpaid because unions typically force a seniority system when it comes to compensation.

This means that much of the money is paid to those in the system the longest while many at the bottom are paid a pittance.

That's typical union compensation -- it's too top-heavy.

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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #12
23. No Big Band Theory? Well, crap, an entire generation will

grow up without hearing Benny Goodman, Glenn Miller or Artie Shaw.

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The Traveler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. "sprays coffe over his monitor"
Oh jeeze ... I guess that is what they call a musical slip? And d is not even close to g on the keyboard. My mind is going. I can feel it, Dave.

... I meant Big Bang of course ...
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Zinfandel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 03:08 AM
Response to Original message
14. Maher is having far too many dinners in LA with the asshole Dennis Miller!
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fearnobush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 03:21 AM
Response to Original message
15. He's just gearing up for his Nader endorsement.
Said, but likely True.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 03:39 AM
Response to Original message
16. What a complete and total piece of crap. He may not know math
because he didn't bother to learn it. I busted my
ass teaching it for twenty seven years and my kids
are doing just fine, *BILL*!

Complete ass, making generalizations.
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blurp Donating Member (769 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #16
44. Good for you, but it didn't help me
I'm glad your kids are doing well.

Now let me give you an example from my experience.

I was taking a math class and we were being forced to measure angles with a protractor. I commented to the teacher that we were wasting time measuring many of the angles because we could apply the "opposite angles are equal" rule.

She said, "not necessarily".

We were measuring angles formed by lines intersecting in a plane. This was Euclidean geometry. So, "yes, necessarily."

Well, she made me approach the board and measure an angle she had created. When the numbers came up differently for opposite angles, I complained that what she had draw were arcs, not lines.

She then said "lines don't have to be straight."

Humiliated, I sat down.

Maybe you'd like to hear the story about all those chemicals evil corporations are putting into our foods like, riboflavin, and citric acid. I learned that in school, too.


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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 04:07 AM
Response to Original message
19. Well look at it this way, CEO's know math and it comes in cheaper help.
So blame it on CEO's and their ex-workers who do know math. Since the workers are going to have to take less pay it is also time we got the President and congress to take less pay and people on TV. The problem will be how long you work for the things you need in life. Not the said value of money. Sort of a silly statement when you first look at it but there is a lot of truth in it. The awful truth is we are all going to have to work for less if we wish to work, I think the writing is on the wall. and then to buy the stuff you need the cost must come down or no one can buy it so no need to produce it. With all Bush's cheap labor coming in from Mexico we have more problems. It is going to be like the 30's and you will be happy to have a job, I guess. Look what Holland is doing for teachers who they can not find. The upper class kids are teaching. That is what my step-mother's mother was. A teacher as she was smart and had only gone to high school. We will be back to those days I guess.The buggy whips are not gone, they are just made by some one else, cheaper.Now will the price come down so you can buy it, and will you have a job so you can?What a mess.
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 04:18 AM
Response to Original message
20. I blame clinton and NAFTA/WTO
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 06:46 AM
Response to Original message
26. Maher is a comedian and this is a joke
duh...
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #26
47. he wasn't joking. Watch it yourself.
they'll be re-running it all week
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #26
54. Maher was never even a good comedian
Smug, arrogant, obnoxious. Saw him over 20+ years ago in NYC, and he was practicaly booed off the stage. He stunk then and still does. Only thing good about 'his' show are some of his guests.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
28. yeah, but to give the devil his due................
he did give DK some air time last night without cracking on him.
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onebigbadwulf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
29. He's right- school teachers who work for 3 dollars an hour
are obviously much better and much more qualified than those who actually require enough money to live.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
30. WTF is he smoking?! What does math have to do with
Edited on Sat Feb-21-04 09:41 AM by HypnoToad
PC/network support? Apart from tallying the cost of shipping? :eyes:

Screw the bastard, and not in the fun way. $2 per hour is far less costly than $30/hr. That's why big corporations do it. That's why the repukes support them. It's the republicans, stupid!

I'll hold him down for you...
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
31. It's a myth that teachers and 'government workers' can't be fired...
...and this is simply a RWing talking point.

- What's the difference between union and non-union workers when it comes to firing? The difference is that most union workers are 'protected' and can't be fired without a process to determine if the dismissal is FAIR.

- That's what Rwingers hate more than anything else...not having the ability to fire workers for ANY bogus reason. They really hate this idea of due process.
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blurp Donating Member (769 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #31
46. I saw this first hand
- What's the difference between union and non-union workers when it comes to firing? The difference is that most union workers are 'protected' and can't be fired without a process to determine if the dismissal is FAIR.

It goes way beyond fair. The process is made to be as difficult as possible.

I saw first hand how difficult is was to fire someone that had actually punched a fellow employee in the face.

Now, you'd think it would be cut and dried. Well, it wasn't. It took nearly a year of meetings, conferences and all sorts of other sillyness to get this guy officially unemployed by the state.

You say "fair". I say the rules are an insult to fair.


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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
32. kids can't do math because of parents who dont demand excellence from them
anyone who has taught knows this awful truth, but teachers risk firing if they point to the parents, who should be the partners in the education of the children because parents think that their own shit doesn't stink when it comes to ensuring the education of their children.

any attentive adult can walk into a classroom of kids and see whose parents give a damn about their kids doing their school work.

i dont blame the kids or the teachers, because the kids learn their work habits and personal behaviors from their parents, not school teachers.

the teachers are in a hard way. they have to take 25 -30 kids/hour who have completely different home situations and attempt to teach all them something.
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Ripley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
34. I saw that...Maher has always been a Libertarian Repuke.
He likes to throw in his rant about legalizing pot and ending the drug war (to fake he is a liberal) then goes on bashing Democrats. He was very serious in blaming the teachers of America...because they can't be fired, they're ruining our children! What an idiot.

He also defending the Smirk to no end last night by saying we shouldn't look at ANY BODY'S youthful indescretions, because we all do dumb things when young. Does he really think smoking pot in college is the same as going AWOL?

I hate him most of the time.
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
35. One outsourcing issue that I never see addressed is
the quality of the work. My sister-in-law works for a company that makes slot machines, or, as she's fond of saying "gaming equipment." Anyhow, a few years ago the head honcho decided to outsource a lot of the software work to India. What he got back was a bunch of gibberish. Solution? Rehire the American programmers who did the job right.
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #35
48. you get what you pay for
that's what we say in MY business when people try to save money stupidly
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swinney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
37. EDUCATION democrats promoters
Democrats promote Republicans Destroy

Democrats promote a free education for all

Republicans promote two educations. One for well off one for less fortunate.

Republicans held presidency for 43 years from 1921 to Bush 2004.

Blame unions. Yes! They did many things wrong. But,overwhelmingly, did good.

Unions promoted--Adequate buildings--Trained teachers--Community colleges--funding for schools which was fought over and over by Republicans who said it would take away foam the military-industrial complex.

Education has been a LOCAL responsibility.

India is taking many lower skilled jobs.
China is doing the same.

Remember Japan? Education has made them King of Industry! OK! and Now?
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mountainvue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
38. I couldn't believe he said that.
I didn't like the little turn his show took there. His show seems to have more righty views this season.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
39. Maher sold out to get in the NeoCon good graces.
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AgadorSparticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. I'm a big fan. But this season has me wondering about him...
...wondering if he had a talking to about being too "left" because the epis this season seem more moderate compared to last season. He's losing his voice--maybe due to political corporate pressure. Look how hard it is for a progressive/liberal radio program to get nationally syndicated. And as much as I don't like it, it's still better than anything else on any network. We should give him a break. As for the outsourcing of jobs due to american fuzzy math, maher is too smart for that. Either he's smoking too many doobies or he's trying to appease the powers that be in his facetious way. Either way, he's much too smart for something that inane.
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
40. Maher was parroting the recent excuse
Republicans have made for outsourcing. It was all over the news this past week...Americans just don't have the math skills to compete for these jobs.

I'm surprised Maher isn't aware that most of the jobs being sent overseas, don't require a great deal of math skills. I'm surprised he isn't aware of Americans training these foreigners only to see them lose their jobs to those they just trained.

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ramapo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
49. Math has little to do with programming
Programming is all about logic, common sense, and the ability to understand a problem and solve it using the best tools most efficiently.

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scarface2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 04:01 PM
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50. wrong..........
even if we could do whatever, which i m sure my fellow citizens can, he defeats his own logic when he says the outsourcers will do it for $2/hr.

we can t touch that without having the standard of living here reduced to that of a third world country.
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