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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:12 AM
Original message
"Boys Don't Cry" ...Brandon Teena
I posted a thread in the lounge on this....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=825171&mesg_id=825171


Apparently it was

a. too "homophobic"

b. too heavy/divisive for the lounge.

While I'm sorry for any feelings hurt by that thread, almost nobody seemed to get the premise of the thread.

Everybody read it as "Brandon was a TG, and very wild, so he deserved to die" - which was NOT what I was saying at all. In fact, some people read things into my post that were not there at all.

My whole point was my frustration at this young man, not at his being TG, but at his constantly flirting with danger, starting brawls, drunk driving, hanging around with thugs. He did NOT deserve to die.

having what I've written misinterpreted SO badly is extremely distressing.

Anyway, I'm just curious if anyone felt the same way about Brandon after seeing the film, or even just if you've ever posted something only to have it so badly misunderstood as my post here.


PS: I was very close friends with Allen Schindler, who was murdered by filthy gay-bashers back in '92, so anyone who says I don't know anything about this is full of it.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:18 AM
Response to Original message
1. what was he supposed to do? Act like a girl? Brandon had to
Edited on Sun Feb-29-04 02:19 AM by slinkerwink
act in a masculine way in what he saw his peers doing.
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Acting masculine and acting crazy are two different things
Machismo, especially when taken to extremes, is stupid, whether it is a male or a TG doing it. I avoided fights as much as possible when I was that age, and I don't care whether someone considers that "manly" or not. Lots off brash young men end up dead too, and I would chastise them, too.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #6
20. brandon was acting masculine, and you said implicitly that it was
his fault that he got murdered for asserting a masculine pattern he saw in his peers to get accepted.
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. Why do you equate masculinity with brawling, violent, wild behavior?
I do not.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #25
33. because most men think showing emotion is weak
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #33
53. Most men don't start brawls
or do the other things I've decribed here ad infinitum.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #53
62. I guess you missed that other post about how teenage boys think
emotions are weak, and need to act violently or aggressively.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:20 AM
Response to Original message
2. and why should your PS excuse you from your illogical post?
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. It's not to excuse anything-
somebody in the thread said that I shouldn't judge just on a 2 hour movie, and hinted that I didn't know a thing about the subject, or that I had no personal connection to it - that's all.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. you still don't know anything about transgenderism
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #12
28. But I do know about losing someone in a horrible way due to homophobia.
n/t
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:21 AM
Response to Original message
3. Gringo
First, I'm sorry your friend Allen Schindler was killed. As I recall, he was the sailor who was beaten to death by fellow servicemen. A horrible way to die.

I think if you read my posts in the other thread, you'd see that my main point was that queer youth, especially transgendered youth, simply do not have the societal framework (meaning family support, friends, teachers, etc.) to enable them to cope with the horrendous alienation they go through.

All teens make very bad decisions. Alienated, lonely, fearful teens do so to an even greater degree.

Brandon Teena made some bad decisions. But none of us, without understanding his situation, should judge him for it. He behaved no worse than millions of other adolescent boys. He did not deserve to be murdered for it.

I would hope we could have a little compassion and a little understanding of the situation he was in. He was young, confused beyond anything you or I can imagine, and had absolutely no role model or hero to emulate. He was on his own, rejected by his family, by his friends, by society.

His death is to be mourned. His murderers are to be blamed. Nobody else.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #3
14. Eloquently stated, Dookus...
Very eloquent. :hug:
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #3
17. Compassion
"I think if you read my posts in the other thread, you'd see that my main point was that queer youth, especially transgendered youth, simply do not have the societal framework (meaning family support, friends, teachers, etc.) to enable them to cope with the horrendous alienation they go through."

Yes, you make a good point there.

"All teens make very bad decisions. Alienated, lonely, fearful teens do so to an even greater degree. "

Do you think so? I've known an awful lot of level-headed, well-adjusted gay young people of Brandon's age (he was 21, I believe)

"Brandon Teena made some bad decisions. But none of us, without understanding his situation, should judge him for it. He behaved no worse than millions of other adolescent boys. He did not deserve to be murdered for it."

You're right, he didn't at all.

"I would hope we could have a little compassion and a little understanding of the situation he was in. He was young, confused beyond anything you or I can imagine, and had absolutely no role model or hero to emulate. He was on his own, rejected by his family, by his friends, by society. "

This is where I went wrong. I wrote the post in the manner in which I would have spoken to Brandon if he had been my friend - familiar and blunt "Brandon, you idiot, what the hell do you think you're doing? You're going to get yourself killed. Come home and we'll talk this thing over"

EVERYBODY read it as though I meant to say that Brandon was scum and deserved to die. Contrary to what you may think, I felt a HUGE amount of compassion for Brandon, that he couldn't be with the girl he loved in the way that he wanted to, that he didn't have access to the medical care to help his body match better with who he was in his heart, that he had to go to SO much trouble to conceal his identity (if the real Brandon was as wispy as Hilary Swank, I still don't know how he fooled anyone) I felt awful that such a unique life was wasted after that film, and thus frustrated that Brandon didn't try to stay safer. I understand what you're saying too, but I guess as a a young person I played it pretty safe (though I did have many gay friends and experimented with the same sex - it turned out not to be my cup of tea, but I have, IMO, always been fully supportive of GLBT rights), so it's hard for me to understand the drunk-driving, brawling thing...
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. actually, you berated him for deceiving the girl he was dating
because he dressed and acted like a guy.
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. Again- Check my posts
This is like the 5th time you have lied about my posts. I NEVER said he should not have acted like a guy. I said that he should not have acted like a thug. BIG difference.

Decieving his girlfriend was also not a good idea - most girls would have been very upset when they inevitably found out. Luckily, Lena was able too see beyond it and love Brandon for the boy he was inside.

Do you think it's a good thing to deceive someone you're dating about something as crucial as your gender?
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. if he hadn't acted like a thug, he still would've been beaten up
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. Yes, assuming he continued hanging out with thugs
When you watch a horror film, don't you ever say to the blonde bimbo on the screen "Don't open that door!"

That's kind of how I felt with this film. I kept saying "No, don't move in with these people that you don't know! Don't try to outrun the cop! Don't go bumper surfing! Don't do that girl without telling her the truth first! Don't hang out with those vaguely threatening, heavy-drinking thugs just out of prison!" Brandon struck me as a very sweet, and apparently INCREDIBLY naive person. At that age, I was already looking out for myself, and personally, I would have been out of that alcohol & violence-drenched house ASAP.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. well, when you're an isolated transgendered kid and your only
friends are homophobic ones, it's not your fault for hanging out with them.
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #36
43. These were people he barely knew
And even in homophobic communities, there are gentle people, and there are people who are a bit scary, like the family in question ( and I'm sure that there ARE a few tolerant Nebraskans around)

Look, I don't want to prosecute the kid. You are 100% right, that the only people responsible for his death were the killers themselves. They were horrible and brutal.

Please don't be mad at me for wishing that Brandon had made a run for it wheen he could've, or asked for police protection after he was raped, or whatever. Don't be mad at me for wishing things had been different. In that situation, who could have looked out for Brandon, other than Brandon himself?
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. please read post 29 and respond to jchild....
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #34
41. read jchild's response to this
Edited on Sun Feb-29-04 03:10 AM by slinkerwink
EVERYBODY read it as though I meant to say that Brandon was scum and deserved to die.

Hard not to see it that way when you called him a thick-skulled, ignorant SOB and posted numerous posts blaming him for provoking the two rubes who murdered him.


Contrary to what you may think, I felt a HUGE amount of compassion for Brandon, that he couldn't be with the girl he loved in the way that he wanted to

Why do you think that the way he was with the girl was NOT the way he wanted to be with the girl?


that he didn't have access to the medical care to help his body match better with who he was in his heart

Many transgendered and gender dysphoric people have no desire for surgery. Lots do, but many are content with their bodies the way they are.

that he had to go to SO much trouble to conceal his identity (if the real Brandon was as wispy as Hilary Swank, I still don't know how he fooled anyone)

Yeah, people can be assholes to gender dysphoric/transgendered people. Your posts in no way demonstrated acceptance, and quite frankly resembled the bigotry my sibling has experienced. Transgendered/Gender dysphoric conceal their gender identity because in public they face the same kind of hostility and ridicule you exhibited in your last feeble attempt to discuss this issue. And they aren't trying to "fool" people...again, your bigotry is STUNNING!

I felt awful that such a unique life was wasted after that film, and thus frustrated that Brandon didn't try to stay safer.

If gender dysphorics hide their identity, they often become suicidal--if they reveal their identity, they often are shot or ridiculed. Thanks for doing your part for making the world a safer place for transgendered and gender dysphoric people.

I understand what you're saying too, but I guess as a a young person I played it pretty safe (though I did have many gay friends and experimented with the same sex - it turned out not to be my cup of tea, but I have, IMO, always been fully supportive of GLBT rights), so it's hard for me to understand the drunk-driving, brawling thing

People fear most what they don't understand. Transgendered and gender dysphoric people often engage in high-risk behavior...they are suffering so much inside that they don't see death as a huge loss. If you had approached this subject with an attitude demonstrative of your wish to learn about the condition instead of an attitude hellbent on disparaging Brandon, then maybe you would not have received the responses you did.
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #41
47. "Stunning" bigotry?
Wow, I wonder what adjecctive you would use to describe the bioty displayed by Lena's mother, or the murderers?

Anyway...

"Why do you think that the way he was with the girl was NOT the way he wanted to be with the girl?"

Because he said that he wanted an operation, and was carrying literature about it.


"that he didn't have access to the medical care to help his body match better with who he was in his heart
Many transgendered and gender dysphoric people have no desire for surgery. Lots do, but many are content with their bodies the way they are."

But according to the film, Brandon did want surgery.

"Yeah, people can be assholes to gender dysphoric/transgendered people. Your posts in no way demonstrated acceptance, and quite frankly resembled the bigotry my sibling has experienced. Transgendered/Gender dysphoric conceal their gender identity because in public they face the same kind of hostility and ridicule you exhibited in your last feeble attempt to discuss this issue. And they aren't trying to "fool" people...again, your bigotry is STUNNING!"

He was trying to convince everyone that he was a man - I realize that he wasn't doing it for kicks, but he wasn't being forthright. Of course, he shouldn't have to be, except in the case of Lena. She deserved the truth before he slept with her.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. the simple reason is that brandon couldn't afford the surgery
and everyone makes mistakes when they're in love.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #47
52. I GIVE UP!
For the first time on DU, I give up. This person has no desire to learn about gender dysphoria.

Instead, he wants to cover his own ass so that other DUers will excuse his bigotry.

I'm letting this one go. If I want to fight with bigots, there are plenty here in Mississippi. DU USED TO BE a haven from such attitudes.

I am soooo glad that I never recommended this site to my sibling. Disgraceful.
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. If everybody her met your standards of tolerance
There would be about 10 members.

"For the first time on DU, I give up. This person has no desire to learn about gender dysphoria.
Instead, he wants to cover his own ass so that other DUers will excuse his bigotry.
I'm letting this one go. If I want to fight with bigots, there are plenty here in Mississippi. DU USED TO BE a haven from such attitudes.
I am soooo glad that I never recommended this site to my sibling. Disgraceful"

I've listened to every word you've said, and I've been civil in my replies. Nothing you or anything else have written contradicts what I wrote about HOW I FELT about the movie. It wasn't about "judging" Brandon, it was strictly what I felt at the end of it.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. thanks
but even though I'm gay, and went through hell as a teenager with the requisite suicide attempts and self-destructive behavior, I had it 1000 times easier than a transgendered youth.

I'm just asking that we all try to consider what he may have gone through before judging his actions. None of us can really understand that degree of alienation, and I understand alienation pretty damned well.

He wasn't stupid. He wasn't an asshole. He just had absolutely no fucking framework in which to contruct a life. I can't even imagine the horror of being in that situation, even though my own situation was pretty fucking bad.

I'm just asking for a little empathy before you judge him.
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. I like everything you wrote here
I do hope you understand what I was trying to say, though...
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #27
40. Goddam it, why don't you absorb what Dookus said instead of trying to
cover your ass?

You are so intent on justifying your hostile, offensive position that you are not even listening to DUers who are trying to explain his behavior to you.

"I like everything you wrote here...I hope you do understand what I was trying to say, though..." tells me that you don't give a SHIT about what he wrote and you are still hellbent on finding at least ONE DUer who will say, "it's cool, Gringo."

So far, zero for zero.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #23
38. I have been through it with a sibling...
thank you again for another very eloquent post. If Gringo won't listen to this, then he is uneducatable.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #17
29. point by point
Edited on Sun Feb-29-04 03:13 AM by jchild
EVERYBODY read it as though I meant to say that Brandon was scum and deserved to die.

Hard not to see it that way when you called him a thick-skulled, ignorant SOB and posted numerous posts blaming him for provoking the two rubes who murdered him.


Contrary to what you may think, I felt a HUGE amount of compassion for Brandon, that he couldn't be with the girl he loved in the way that he wanted to

Why do you think that the way he was with the girl was NOT the way he wanted to be with the girl?


that he didn't have access to the medical care to help his body match better with who he was in his heart

Many transgendered and gender dysphoric people have no desire for surgery. Lots do, but many are content with their bodies the way they are.

that he had to go to SO much trouble to conceal his identity (if the real Brandon was as wispy as Hilary Swank, I still don't know how he fooled anyone)

Yeah, people can be assholes to gender dysphoric/transgendered people. Your posts in no way demonstrated acceptance, and quite frankly resembled the bigotry my sibling has experienced. Transgendered/Gender dysphoric conceal their gender identity because in public they face the same kind of hostility and ridicule you exhibited in your last feeble attempt to discuss this issue. And they aren't trying to "fool" people...again, your bigotry is STUNNING!

I felt awful that such a unique life was wasted after that film, and thus frustrated that Brandon didn't try to stay safer.

If gender dysphorics hide their identity, they often become suicidal--if they reveal their identity, they often experience violence and ridicule. Thanks for doing your part for making the world a safer place for transgendered and gender dysphoric people. :eyes:

I understand what you're saying too, but I guess as a a young person I played it pretty safe (though I did have many gay friends and experimented with the same sex - it turned out not to be my cup of tea, but I have, IMO, always been fully supportive of GLBT rights), so it's hard for me to understand the drunk-driving, brawling thing

People fear most what they don't understand. Transgendered and gender dysphoric people often engage in high-risk behavior...they are suffering so much inside that they don't see death as a huge loss. If you had approached this subject with an attitude demonstrative of your wish to learn about the condition instead of an attitude hellbent on disparaging Brandon, then maybe you would not have received the responses you did.

Even the post to which I am now responding demonstrates that you have no intention or desire to expand your knowledge on the topic. You just want to find SOMEONE at DU who will excuse your shitty post.
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #29
51. STUNNING
"Even the post to which I am now responding demonstrates that you have no intention or desire to expand your knowledge on the topic. You just want to find SOMEONE at DU who will excuse your shitty post."

No, apparentlyI just want to come back and get vitriol and profanity spewed at me. It's such a pleasure. (sarcasm) You know, I haven't expressed one bit of hostility with ANY of the antagonistic posters here, and I'm trying to at least approach this sincerely, but you come back with this personal hatred.

You know, if I represent "Stunning Bigotry" You've got a helluva long way to go, because I'm pretty sure I'm less bigoted on GLBT issues than about 90% of the populace of this country. You'll have to think up some REALLY colorful adjectives for the Southern Baptists.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #51
56. YOU are woefully WRONG
When you call a person who had the same condition that my sibling now has a "thickheaded, ignorant, SOB" then you indeed DID express hostility AND hatred toward my sibling. Your unwillingness to listen to people who know much about this issue only further compounds your very evident bigotry.


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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #56
60. Apparently you can't separate the TG and the individual.
A person can be both TG and an SOB, A person can be a TG and a saint. Same goes for straight people. I called him that because he seemed oblivious to the obvious dangers building around him, NOT because he was TG.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #60
64. you again questioned why he was setting up his behaviors that way
and why he was deceiving the girl he was dating. First of all, he was emulating masculine behavior from his friends, and it's hard to come out to the ones you love the most.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
4. Aren't you continuing a flamefest?
You're previous thread was locked for a reason. Why continue it here? You made your stance on this issue CRYSTAL CLEAR.

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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. that's a good question----didn't we already try to educate you on
this in that other thread?
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #4
19. Apparently not
judging from your post.
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MichaelHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
7. Its a hard topic to discuss
I've seen the movie twice. I didn't misunderstand your post at all. I see your point that anyone, regardless of sexual makeup, can put themselves in unsafe positions. I think the conclusions drawn by others regarding your post we're motivated by deep personal feelings. Theres nothing wrong with that at all except when it clouds ones critique. For example if a person said Hillary Swanks performance was good but was it Oscar worthy? The person who uses the "homophobe" response would be clouding the debate with those personal feelings I mentioned earlier.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. did you read all the threads in that post?
the poster called Brandon a thick-skulled ignorant SOB and said that Brandon shouldn't have tried to act masculine.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. and thereby was partially responsible for his murder.
Sickening is the only word for that post. Sickening.
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MichaelHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Honestly no, I didn't read it all. I didn't see that.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=825171&mesg_id=825171

Note that the most offensive statement in the OP was edited out fifteen minutes after the thread began, after countless responses to the thread had been posted.

Enjoy.
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MichaelHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #13
22. Incredibly tough topic.
Would his crtique had more merit without the name calling part? The offensive part? Man this is a tough subject :) How would a straight guy critique a movie like that? Thats the best I can come up with.

p.s. I'm not trying to get any mean stuff going. I'm the most layed back guy in the world. So layed back I have to check my pulse from time to time.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. once again, I have to ask why the poster is continuing this flame war
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #9
24. That is a lie
Edited on Sun Feb-29-04 02:56 AM by Gringo
I called him a "thickheaded SOB". I never used the word "ignorant", another poster did. I was writing in a familiar, blunt tone as though I were talking to Brandon directly (as I have explained above)

Re-read all my posts - you are adding your own interpretation to what I said. Acting masculine is NOT the same thing as drunk-driving, brawling and hanging out with psychotic ex-cons. I NEVER said that he should not have acted masculine. He should not have acted like a hooligan.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. you did use that word ignorant!
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. I didn't. Sorry, but I really didn't.
The whole thread is locked, but still there, the link is there. I said thickheaded DUMB SOB - I did use the word dumb. I suppose it's a "dumb" distinction to try to make now!
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. you did use that word "ignorant"----jchild backs me up on this...
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. Ok, you want to argue semantics...
tell me how dumb differs from ignorant PLEASE!

Either are equally offensive.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #24
35. Yes you did...you called him a "thickheaded, ignorant SOB"
Even though you edited it, Admin is privy to the post before you edited it.

And I repeat, you are not open to being educated by DUers, so pick up a book on the topic and read it...maybe then you will see not only why Brandon engaged in the behavior he did, but also how your hostility harms gender dysphoric people.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:38 AM
Response to Original message
15. yoohoo!
Gringo....

Look at my post #3 and respond. You're unlikely to find a lot of people who agree with your premise here, so take the opportunity to look at the other side of the argument and see if your heart can't be opened a little.
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #15
31. I did read your post #3
And I totally get where you're coming from. In fact you're the only one that doesn't seem to be just parroting PC mantras and putting words in my mouth that I NEVER said.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:38 AM
Response to Original message
16. Forgive me if this is off-topic, but --
-- if I had a wish for American education, I would wish that Boys Don't Cry could be shown in every single high school class to make young folks aware that people need to be more kind to each other than they often are. In general, certainly, and regarding GLBT particularly.

I don't run the universe so this won't be happening by next week. But if I did run the show, that film would be mandatory as part of the curriculum.
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Exultant Democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:13 AM
Response to Original message
44. OK my two cents,
Gringo I see your point and how you would react to your own friend in a similar situation seems reasonable enough. You don't seem to understand that there are two vital difference between what you should/would say to a friend and how you talk about a murder victim.
The first being that they are not your friend, and the other being that they are dead.

This being said, you should understand that if you are going to comment on him (no matter how valid your point may be) you should take extra pains to be sensitive and compassionate. Your approach unfortunately raised a lot of peoples defenses, they have put on their blinders and are responding to the worst possible meanings that could be attributed to your posts.

What should have been at least an interesting, if not important dialog will not be occurring today.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. what sort of worst possible meanings can we get from someone
who said that brandon's trangenderism was somehow to blame for his murder?
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. or who called brandon a thickheaded, ignorant SOB
of course, now Gringo states that he didn't call Brandon ignorant--maybe dumb--but not ignorant. :eyes:

Don't attempt to turn the tables--I have no blinders on when it comes to this topic. And the absolutely nicest DUer in this thread who tried very eloquently to respond to Gringo received a post that basically demonstrated that Gringo is more concerned with his DU reputation than with LEARNING about this topic.

Some closed minds will never be open. But don't blame the enlightened ones of us for wearing blinders--if Gringo would widen his worldview perhaps he would learn something.

Repetitively blaming the victim for his murder after calling the victim a thickheaded, ignorant SOB--yeah, that tends to raise my hackles.
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #46
57. Again - something I NEVER said.
Now you are equating transgenderism with hooligan behavior. They are not the same!
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Exultant Democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #46
63. See that is my point exactly
I am not at all in any way defending Gringo. To be precise I said that the way in which he started the discussion made the discussion impossible.

Now as for worst possible meanings, you say that what he wrote boils down to "that Brandon's trangenderism was somehow to blame for his murder," Gringo on the other hand says that this is not what he meant. Since each of you see something different that means that there are at least two possible interpretations. I think it is fair to say that your interpretation finds a far more sinister meaning, then his own interpretation of his words. That being said, I never said that you were wrong.

Since the internet is a rather anonymous place you have no way of knowing who the real Gringo is. The way he started the subject gave you more then enough justification to be offended.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #44
50. thank you LC...
you are right.

The whole issue is inherently inflammatory and emotional. Gringo could've done a lot better in BOTH threads he or she started. I have given him/her the benefit of the doubt and tried to explain why normal rules of behavior may not apply to an alienated transgendered youth. But I don't fault others at all for not giving him that benefit. It is a deeply emotional, personal issue for many people.

My hope is that Gringo will be forced to think about some of the issues raised and, with grace, perhaps change his or her stance. Brandon Teena deserves nothing but our sympathy. His murderers deserve nothing but our scorn.
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #50
58. Scorn?
I never approached it that way. And I don't see why I need to try to explain the sentiment I was expressing again. As for my "DU reputation", that was shot long ago. I am INCAPABLE of being PC, and that's what this is about. You guys are making this into a personal battle like Brandon was your best friend or something. None of you knew him anymore than I did.

"Normal rules of behavior may not apply to an alienated transgendered youth."

Statements like this are annoying. You are trying to make the emothional turmoil a TG kid has to go through as something more than what a straight or bi or gay or whatever kid has to go through. Adolescence is hell for most kids, and that hell cannot be quantified on some sort of meter, so if you want to excuse crazy behavior by TG kids, you have to excuse it with all kids.

Sure, on an emotional, personal level, one can think about the various challenges he was facing, and be empathetic and try to understand why he made the choices that he made. But the statement that "Normal rules of behavior may not apply to an alienated transgendered (or GLBT) youth." is a bit disturbing. I assume you don't mean in the legal arena...
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. look.....transgendered youths are different because they do
not receive community support where they are, or the support of society.
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #59
68. Fair enough.
I've belabored this long enough. The original post was about HOW I FELT after watching a movie. I do not hate, scorn, or blame Brandon Teena for his death. I actually felt rather fond of the character as presented in the film. I plead guilty to posting thoughts that apparently come across as hateful to you and others. Personally, I think you guys are so wrapped up in PC that you've become unable to even try to fathom the HUMAN emotion I was trying to get across. But that's life. A lot of stuff that mkes perfect sense to me makes no sense to others. Just keep in mind that millions in this country truly would hate Brandon, and condemn him to hell, etc. I don't. I think he was a wonderful person with a lot of wasted potential. Maybe you guys should try working on those people, rather than trying to beat the crap out of me for "not being tolerant enough".

See you around.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #58
66. Gringo...
as you can see, I have been much more tolerant of your position than some others. I did so because I truly believed you hadn't considered the difficulties faced by transgendered youth.

But this last post of yours shows I was mistaken.

Clearly I wasn't talking about legality - I was talking about morality. The decisions made by Brandon Teena were bad, indeed. I spent many posts trying to explain WHY a person in his situation might make such bad decisions, and asking for a little empathy on your part.

It seems it's not forthcoming. So I can no longer give you the benefit of the doubt. You're simply an ass.
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:30 AM
Response to Original message
55. Gringo...
...don't you think there is something wrong with things you are saying, when you have to end up saying "sorry" for them? And don't you think there is something wrong with your thrads when you begin a thread that ends up in flames? That is the second flame you have created in as many days.

No amount of sorry's is going to remove the homophobia you showed in that thread and other threads.
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #55
61. What other threads?
This is obviously connected to that other flamefest - but aside from that -waht other threads?
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #61
65. Gringo, I am not about to searh the archives to pull them up...
...if you have short term memory loss, then that is your problem not mine.

You obviosuly have some deep issues that need to be sorted out, instead of bringing issues here and beginning flame fests about lets see, Brandon Teena, and then PMing people to continue a locked disucssion, and then beginning another thread, and let's not forget other things you have shown in the gay marriage threads.

BTW, do NOT PM me again.
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #65
69. I PMed you to answer your post.
Edited on Sun Feb-29-04 04:23 AM by Gringo
That is not an "issue" an I'm sure as hell not stalking you.

As for gay marriage, I've never been anything but pro-gay marriage. What is the issue there? Maybe you have me confused with someone else.

By the way, is ONE PM considered harrassment now? Never heard that before...
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. it's your attitudes towards transgenderism
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. I don't have you confused, Gringo.
And I certainly didn't say you were stalking me. However, I DO consider your PM harrassment.

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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #61
67. here you go---examples of two other threads....
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #67
72. Yes, 2 other threads
One is about gays, whether or not they are one-issue voters (they are not) and the other mentions gays along with various other groups that are used by the right against us.

Neither thread is anti-gay in any way. My first and foremost concern is getting Bush out of office. If tinkering with the dem platform or shuffling priorities will help do that, I'm all for it.

Personally, I don't think that the present gay marriage issue is that much of a liability, but I was curious about what others thought. Keep searching. When you find the thread where I say "Gays are bad and should not have the right to marry" or "Sodomy laws should be kept on the books" I will quit DU immediately and never come back. until then, don't ascribe sentiments to me that I DO NOT HAVE.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #72
73. the first one about gays was whether they'd switch to the republican
party if the republican party changed their anti-gay platform. I found that offensive.
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #73
75. Of course you did, you're easily offennded
You apparently have made a hobby of it.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #75
76. no, my question is whether you've realized why so many people
are upset by your threads like the Boys Don't Cry thread in DU.
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #76
80. Yes, I do realize why, as I've said
which is why I keep trying to abandon this thread, but you keep coming back with superfluous comments. If you are looking for a blanket apology, don't hold your breath.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. you consider my comments superfluous? all I'm doing is reflecting
the mirror of your own comments back on you.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #73
87. okay, it's 4 a.m. and I've had a pretty rough night, but could you. . .
. . . explain why the notion that any particular group might change their political affiliation on the basis of one party's platform is offensive?

I'm not defending anyone here. I haven't read any other threads Gringo has posted in, and I didn't read the "boys Don't Cry" thread and I've never seen the movie and I don't know much about Brandon Teena beyond what's been posted in this thread.

So if I'm completely out in left field on this, I hope someone will let me know.

But I'm trying to be objective and just base my response on what's been written in this particular thread. I have no axes to grind and no preconceptions.

1. Is there a reason why GLBT folks can't be conservative? If they can, then wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that if the GOP suddenly became friendlier to GLBT issues, some GLBT folks might switch?

2. On the wider Brandon Teena issue, is it possible that a person's ACTIONS can be the cause of events, even if the person has no rational control over their actions? So we deplore the behavior of a woman who repeatedly stands on a street corner at night and solicits unprotected sex with strangers for money, and we know that her behavior is stupid and dangerous and carries enormous unnecessary risks, but when she is raped and murdered by one of her johns, we don't blame HER for it, but we blame her ACTIONS, and we understand that she may not have been completely able to control those actions. To some, perhaps, that distinction may not be clear. A person who hangs around with drug-dealing ex-con thugs is engaging in dangerous activity that no rational person would engage in, and such activity can and often does lead to tragedy. That the person is not to blame does not make the activity any less dangerous.

Just my ignorant two cents at a totally unreasonable hour.

Tansy Gold

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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #72
74. and in the second one, you placed the gay community in the
"most counterproductive" categories of that poll----that was offensive. Look at post #10 for arwalden's take on that in that thread.
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:09 AM
Response to Reply #74
77. Counterproductive...
...in terms of harmful to our party's ability to win.

Asking people what they think is not an attack. Also, it refers to the militant queer movements, NOT mainstream gay organizations.

Don't you get tired of being "aghast, shocked and offended" all the time?
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #77
78. Deleted by jchild...not worth the warning.
Edited on Sun Feb-29-04 04:12 AM by jchild
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #78
82. Ah...but I did get to read it! Charming!
With people like you on the team, the GLBT movement is bound to win over America in NO TIME! What do you do with all that charisma when you're not exuding it here at DU?
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:23 AM
Response to Reply #82
83. mmm, what charisma did you exude in that disgusting post of yours?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #82
86. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #77
79. you call Act Up! and Queer Nation militant queer movements?
they're every as much a part of the mainstream gay movement.
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phrenzy Donating Member (941 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 05:04 AM
Response to Original message
84. Brandon Teena Was Irresponsible In Many Ways
Like many other teenage girls and boys, Brandon Teena probably behaved in impulsive, irresponsible ways.

That has nothing to do with being murdered.

I could understand the people that Brandon Teena was not honest with feeling hurt and not wanting anything to do with him once they found out the truth - But, again - That ain't murder.

The fact is, though - forget about those two weird guys, if the girl (played by Chloe Sevigny) was being deceived - that ain't cool - no matter what the reasons.

But, once again - what that has to do with being killed, I have no idea.

It's like - If a man cheats on his wife with another woman telling the other woman he is not married (happens all the time obviously) - Should he be killed for that?

No doubt there are some mentally unstable women that might kill him (like the lady that ran over the husband 3 times) - But, the blame lies squarely on the killer.
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 06:21 AM
Response to Original message
85. Gringo, I feel so sorry for you.
Before tonight, I had never seen Boy's Don't Cry, but thanks to your first disgusting thread about this, I decided to go hire it and watch it. I have just finished watching it now.

Brandon acted like any normal kid his age. He didn't lead his girlfriend on. In case you missed this part, but the first time Brandon and his girlfriend made love, his girlfriend knew.

You should have paid attention, Gringo. Brandon's girlfriend was laying on her bed with her friends talking about it, and thinking back. As they were making love, she saw cleavage, Gringo.

But let's not stop there, let's talk about when those sick thugs ripped Brandson's pants off in the bathroom shall we? Specifically when John holds Brandon's girlfriend down on her knees and makes her look between the legs of Brandon.

Then let's talk about after those sick fucks raped Brandon shall we? How after Brandon made the police report he went to the home of the other victim in this senseless crime the mother of a toddler. Didn't Brandon's girlfriend come over there? Didn't they make love? Sounds to me like the girlfriend has accepted Brandon, and loved him enough to see past genitalia. That isn't leading anyone on.

Brandon was a 21 year old guy, who grew up in Lincoln Nebraska, not some big city where there is lots of different things to do apart from drinking, getting stoned and stealing cars. He acted like any normal 21 year old kid of today's day and age would do.

Your whole attitude towards this story makes me truly sick.

By the way I noticed in your original thread that you when talking about Brandon had written he (she) exactly like that. Have some respect for a transgendered person and call them by the he or she they are, not both.
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