Enough with the "_______ is worse than/ as bad as Hitler"

[noahmijo]

So far lately I've heard quite a few of you refer to * and Reagan and assorted other Republican politicians as being as bad as Hitler.

To compare either of these two to Hitler is ludicrous and quite frankly you sound like an uneducated dopey little teenie bopper who needs an ass kicking.

It's shit like this that give freepers the ammo they need to make our boards and ourselves look like a bunch of radical psychotics with no room for reason whatsoever.

I think the majority of this board is far better than that, but still what few we have that go around and spew this bullshit still cast a wide shadow over the rest of us.

All I can say is make stupid bullshit statements comparing * to Hitler all you want, but "not in my name"

[Systematic Chaos]

1. This one oughtta be interesting....

n/t

[seemslikeadream]

2. Yea I'm not sure if I want to throw the first

snowball

[Systematic Chaos]

8. Then allow me....

I for one have never seen a post on this board attempting to compare Reagan to Hitler. In my eyes, to make such a comparison would indeed be ludicrous.

OTOH, the similarities between the antics of * and the rise of Hitler are eerily similar, as is the reasoning behind the current oil-grab-in-war's-clothing vs. Germany's invasion of Poland. I got news for ya. People in GERMANY are spending a LOT of time comparing * to Hitler. Someone here a while back posted a picture taken in Germany which showed a poster on a telephone pole with pictures of * and Hitler side by side and the caption "Same shit, different asshole". If anyone would know what they were talking about it would probably be the people who suffered under Hitler and almost lost their entire country because of it.

[thebigidea]

50. goddamnit, I thought we decided that GEORGE BUSH IS BETTER THAN HITLER!

http://www.terminalproduct.com/betterthanhitler.rm

[rooboy]

3. Anyone who says you can't be as bad as Hitler is as bad as Hitler. n/t

[0rganism]

4. You're right. They're all better than Hitler. Happy now?

They're also better than Stalin, Pol Pot, and maybe Tiberius.

Perhaps we can come up with other historical figures who are worse than bush, Ronald Raygun, and assorted other republican criminals.

[Hubert Flottz]

172. They're all worse than a dose of the Hong Kong Dong!

At least they have shots for that stuff!

[BigMcLargehuge]

5. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH... HOOOOOOHOHOHOHOHOO

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA... No stop, you're killing me.... HAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHA....

Oh wait... you're serious... Ahem.

Just keep telling yourself they are really honorable men who wouldn't send your family off to the camps all you want.... really... it's a nice thought, and I wish I could believe it.

[noahmijo]

6. See this is the shit I'm talking about

I NEVER SAID THEY WERE HONORABLE MEN

But did they in fact commit as bad of atrocities as Hitler? Did I say that NO ONE could ever be as bad as Hitler?

Maybe in your mind they could be as low, but they didn't did they?

I am too young to really know what Reagan was about, and I hate Bush and want his ass tossed, but to say he's as bad as Hitler is just pure ignorance.

[BigMcLargehuge]

10. you just keep telling youself that... really.

it's okay. I don't hold it against you.

[mountainvue]

12. How many Iraqi's

have died because of Bushco? Oh that's right. We stopped counting them.

[Massacure]

65. Sure as hell not 12 million

Perhaps tens of thousands but not 12 million.

[Ms. Clio]

86. hey they're just getting started

Keep your fingers crossed.

[indepat]

101. Has not Rummy already alluded to "a thousand years?"

[seemslikeadream]

106. meluseth I say that all the time! WATCH THIS VIDEO

EVERY DEATH CREATES NEW ENEMIES
MORE TERRORISTS
MORE DANGER
MORE DEATH
AND REMEMBER...
HE IS JUST GETTING STARTED...
BUSH'S PLAN FOR PEACE
IS THE PEACE OF THE COMMON GRAVE

http://www.bushflash.com/pax.html


Let America be America again.
Let it be the dream it used to be.
Let it be the pioneer on the plain
Seeking a home where he himself is free.

(America never was America to me.)

Let America be the dream the dreamers dreamed--
Let it be that great strong land of love
Where never kings connive nor tyrants scheme
That any man be crushed by one above.

(It never was America to me.)

O, let my land be a land where Liberty
Is crowned with no false patriotic wreath,
But opportunity is real, and life is free,
Equality is in the air we breathe.

(There's never been equality for me,
Nor freedom in this "homeland of the free.")

Say, who are you that mumbles in the dark?
And who are you that draws your veil across the stars?

I am the poor white, fooled and pushed apart,
I am the Negro bearing slavery's scars.
I am the red man driven from the land,
I am the immigrant clutching the hope I seek--
And finding only the same old stupid plan
Of dog eat dog, of mighty crush the weak.

I am the young man, full of strength and hope,
Tangled in that ancient endless chain
Of profit, power, gain, of grab the land!
Of grab the gold! Of grab the ways of satisfying need!
Of work the men! Of take the pay!
Of owning everything for one's own greed!

I am the farmer, bondsman to the soil.
I am the worker sold to the machine.
I am the Negro, servant to you all.
I am the people, humble, hungry, mean--
Hungry yet today despite the dream.
Beaten yet today--O, Pioneers!
I am the man who never got ahead,
The poorest worker bartered through the years.

Yet I'm the one who dreamt our basic dream
In the Old World while still a serf of kings,
Who dreamt a dream so strong, so brave, so true,
That even yet its mighty daring sings
In every brick and stone, in every furrow turned
That's made America the land it has become.
O, I'm the man who sailed those early seas
In search of what I meant to be my home--
For I'm the one who left dark Ireland's shore,
And Poland's plain, and England's grassy lea,
And torn from Black Africa's strand I came
To build a "homeland of the free."

The free?

Who said the free? Not me?
Surely not me? The millions on relief today?
The millions shot down when we strike?
The millions who have nothing for our pay?
For all the dreams we've dreamed
And all the songs we've sung
And all the hopes we've held
And all the flags we've hung,
The millions who have nothing for our pay--
Except the dream that's almost dead today.

O, let America be America again--
The land that never has been yet--
And yet must be--the land where every man is free.
The land that's mine--the poor man's, Indian's, Negro's, ME--
Who made America,
Whose sweat and blood, whose faith and pain,
Whose hand at the foundry, whose plow in the rain,
Must bring back our mighty dream again.

Sure, call me any ugly name you choose--
The steel of freedom does not stain.
From those who live like leeches on the people's lives,
We must take back our land again,
America!

O, yes,
I say it plain,
America never was America to me,
And yet I swear this oath--
America will be!

Out of the rack and ruin of our gangster death,
The rape and rot of graft, and stealth, and lies,
We, the people, must redeem
The land, the mines, the plants, the rivers.
The mountains and the endless plain--
All, all the stretch of these great green states--
And make America again!

Let America be America Again...by Langston Hughes

[Ms. Clio]

110. "They make a desolation and call it peace"

I think you're tragically, horribly, right, seemslikeadream. Seems more like a nightmare, no?

I had never read that before--it's a keeper--thank you very much for posting it.

[Cheswick2.0]

108. Give em time

They are doing it the slow way in Afghanistan by electrocuting prisoners. Oh well, and there was the truck convoy full of cooked to death arabs. I assume the slaughter will be much more efficient after bush steals the next election.

[seemslikeadream]

13. Have you got a few minutes grasshopper?

It's time for another Bush/Nazis thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=199853

read learn

Know the enemy, and never forget

[Trajan]

28. An interesting tidbit from that site ...

Paranoid shift

A conservative, authoritarian style, with public appearances in military uniform (which no previous American president has ever done while in office). Government by secrecy, propaganda and deception. Open assaults on labor unions and workers' rights. Preemptive war and militant nationalism. Contempt for international law and treaties. Suspiciously convenient "terrorist" attacks, to justify a police state and the suspension of liberties. A carefully manufactured image of "The Leader," who's still just a "regular guy" and a "moderate." "Freedom" as the rationale for every action. Fantasy economic growth, based on unprecedented budget deficits and massive military spending. And a cold, pragmatic ideology of fascism—including the violent suppression of dissent and other human rights; the use of torture, assassination and concentration camps; and most important, Benito Mussolini's preferred definition of "fascism" as "corporatism, because it binds together the interests of corporations and the state."

Hmmmmmmmm ? .... ANYONE who wants parallels can get parallels, if they really look for them ...

It isnt always counterintuitive to seek comparisons with Hitler: sometimes they are real ....

[seemslikeadream]

34. And it's really easy, only takes a few minutes

[Malva Zebrina]

64. I think you are right--

the biggest thing associated with Hitler is of course his treatment and attempts to annhilate the Jews and the use of gas chambers to eliminate Jews as well as the outright propaganda, the ghettos and the forcing of the Jew to wear a yellow star. We don 't quite see that low a level yet in Bush and I do not think he could get away with that here, although the mind set of many Americans is pretty much gone so far to the right that anything like that might happen. Sorry to have to think that way.

All that you mention certainly are parallels to Hitler's fascist regime and methods of government--the lies, secrecy and the propaganda, especially noticeable in Bush's regime.

I would add another that I just thought about--in view of the pretzel incident, the bicycle event and Woodward's mentioning of Bush's strange talking/babbling in a sort of tongues reminds me of the description of Hitler's tirades--no one dared suggest anything that would oppose what Hitler was saying-not to his face anyhow- he would go nuts, fall on the floor, scream and yell incoherently not making any sense, drool and in one instance,even chewed the carpet.

[hughee99]

197. There are many parallels here to FDR

as well during WWII.
Government secrecy, propaganda, deception.
Open assaults on labor unions and workers rights.
Preemptive war and militant nationalism.
A psuedo-police state in some areas and a suspension of liberties.
There were unprecendented budget deficits and massive military spending.
Freedom (or Democracy, if you prefer) was used as a rationale for many actions.
The use of torture, assassination and concentration camps.
The contempt for international law and treaties.

But I don't equate FDR in any way with Hitler.

[tom_paine]

201. Many of your analogies are faulty

"contempt for international law and treaties"?
Where were the open assaults on Labor Unions (that went above the normal assaults on labor unions which were going on)?
"Preemptive war and Militant Nationalism?" Name the preventative war FDR launched. Name some examples of this Militant Nationalism.
Where and when did FDR authorize torture?
When did FDR throw aside the Geneva Convention for the Treatment of War Prisoners?

Whene exactly was that?

If you're going to make a rhetorical analogy, you should probably come up with some actual analogs.

[hughee99]

207. A few examples...

Contempt for International law and treaties - The Lend-Lease act where we were providing naval ships, equipment, and aid to the British while still maintaining our neutrality.

Labor Unions - Smith-Connaly Anti-Strike Act (1943, I believe)authorized government to take over & operate tied up industries (strikes). Strikes against gov't owned business such as RR's would be a criminal act. During this time, many regulations that the labor unions had fought to put in place, such as working hours and overtime pay, were also suspended.

I would argue that to make Italy and Germany our top priority in December, 1941, even though they had not attacked us constitutes a pre-emptive war. Yes, they did declare war on us. So did Romainia, but we didn't go after them right away. I don't disagree with his decision to do this, but I would call it pre-emptive.

I'm not sure what examples of militant nationalism you're looking for, but I don't see too much now that wasn't going on back then.

The treatment of German prisoners during WWII, while better than German (and certainly Japanese), did not live up to the Geneva Convention standards. It also included the mass execution of more than 50 prisoners (at the same time) after the war had ended and many were not repatriated until more than a year after the hostilities ended.

I also notice that you decided not to comment on:
Government secrecy, propaganda, deception.
A psuedo-police state in some areas and a suspension of liberties.
There were unprecendented budget deficits and massive military spending.
Freedom (or Democracy, if you prefer) was used as a rationale for many actions.
Assassinations and concentration camps

Though I do not know if that was because of time, or those were issues that you did not need examples of.

[tom_paine]

210. Your Lend-Lease point is a bit stretched, but good points otherwise

Well, actually, your calling the War on Gewrmany "preemptive" because of the Roosevelt Doctrine on Europe First is also faulty and a disingenuous stretch, IMHO.

If you had no examples of militant nationalism, you shouldn;t have brought it up.

And I am going to have to see some credible links on US violations (systemic, not sporadic) of the Geneva Convention in WWII before I buy into that assertion.

As to the other points I didn't mention, time was part of it but also that the US at that time did practice those things to some degree.

But those are the actions of a Nation responding to a Declared War, a World War. The "War on Terrorism" is no such thing, and I am not even 100% sure that 9-11 wasn't an "Operation Northwoods" special.

You're points are well taken but not nearly the whole story.

In the end, Roosevelt fought Hitler, he didn't launder his money for him, as Grandpa Bush did.

[hughee99]

218. I sort of agree about Lend-Lease

The equating the Roosevelt Doctorine with pre-emptive war is not really that much of a stretch. During the SoTU January 6, 1941 FDR, referring to Lend-Lease, stated

"In fulfillment of this purpose we will not be intimidated by the threats of dictators that they will regard as a breach of international law or as an act of war our aid to the democracies which dare to resist their aggression. Such aid is not an act of war, even if a dictator should unilaterally proclaim it to be so. And when the dictators—if the dictators—are ready to make war upon us, they will not wait for an act of war on our part."

so even he was aware that he was treading on shakey ground.

Many issues become clearer after time, though I expect that time will not help *'s case at all. As for "militant nationalism", I really don't understand what your examples are (that are occuring now) that I wouldn't be able to draw a parallel to. I would consider Pre-WWII Japan or Napoleon's France to be an example of this, and I don't really see where we have gone to this level (then, definately, now, not yet anyway). As for systematic Geneva Convention violations, even now, the US has many prison camps and I'm somewhat suprised that we haven't seen Abu Garib in other locations. That doesn't indicate that torture isn't happening, just that it isn't being reported. The US government had considerably more sway over the media 60 years ago then now, and I would wonder how many unreported incidents occured then. I would have to do more investigation to be better versed on this subject, though.

I do appreaciate your thoughful argument. I was hopping that I wouldn't just be shouted down as a Ffreeper (F***ing Freeper) or * apologist, just because I think that Hitler was in a league of his own.

[tom_paine]

219. Hitler WAS in a league of his own. But give Bush a chance

I mean, judging Bush's incomplete career (and him only just getting started) with Hitler complete career is unfair to both men.

I try not to shout at people who have responded civilly.

[hughee99]

220. I appreciate it, and I agree

that * is just getting started. I think it's still to early to make a good comparison. After all, Hitler had 12 years in office (which will hopefull be 8 more than *) and we have the benefit of having learned much of went on under him. We won't know the full scope of * until many years from now.

[Norquist Nemesis]

14. Not as bad

yet...but keep it up and you'll be giving them enough time to catch up and raise the bar.

[Systematic Chaos]

16. My advice to you would be to check out these links:

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0913-03.htm

http://www.oilempire.us/reichstag-fire.html

Read for yourself and seriously consider the facts and comparisons that are laid out, and then come back and say that you still don't see parallels between * and Hitler. There ain't nothin' ignorant about it, I'm afraid.

[Raskolnik]

32. This is silly.

Parallels and commonalities are one thing. Saying that Reagan or Bush is as bad as Hitler is quite another.

Listen, you'll get no argument from me if you say that Reagan was a bad president and W might be the worst ever. If you got your history from someplace other than the internet, you'd see that equating either with Hitler is just hyperbole for the sake of hyperbole. Its useless to the debate.

[Just Me]

84. It is the similar attributes that make them terribly dangerous.

Hitler did not commit genocide until after he had acquired the financial and "emotional" power over the people to do so.

The corporatism, intent to deceive, narcissism, dimunition of opposing political views and religiosities are the trademarks of a dangerous fascist.

[RapidCreek]

27. What personally? No but neither did Hitler he had other people

do it for him....Sort of like Reagan did with the extermination of 200 to 300 thousand Central Americans.

Genocide is Genocide. He was a Genocidal maniac who funded his thugs with treasonous sales of weapons to terrorists.

He surely wasn't as successful as Hitler was...but it wasn't for lack of trying!


RC

[TankLV]

79. You are right about one thing - you are too young to know better.

I suggest someone needs a little time researching the truth about thte past, hmmmmm?

For those of us who suffered GREATLY thru it all, it's like it was yesterday.

[left is right]

112. The reason why you and others

can't see the validity of the comparisons is because you are looking at Hitler as an "end-product" where as * is just developing. He is not there yet. I have done much reading about the Nazi phenomenon and if you compare Hitler in the 30's with * now, you will see a lot of similarities: the distortion of language, surrounding oneself with thugs, creating situations that can be twisted to ones advantage by installing fear into the population, "us vs. them" preemptive invasion, the denigration of intelligence. In fact, I think * is ahead of schedule, blaming some group(s) for all the ills of society
The point of such comparisons is to try and stop what feels like the inevitable. Would you be more comfortable with a Nero/* comparison, that also works?

[tom_paine]

196. Talk to me after the Imperial Bush career

Even Hitler wasn't as bad as Hitler in 1936...

[charlie]

7. Yeah, but nevermind that

Anyone who spouts bullshit in noahmijo's name deserves an asskicking, don't you think? You with me?

[noahmijo]

9. No they deserve a 5th grade beating

Meaning you deserve to be given wedgies for 5 minutes and be tickled till you cry uncle.

[charlie]

15. Hey

Yer a sport! Cool. Don't take anything on this board too seriously, not today anyway. Certainly not seriously enough to call for asskickings :)

[ElectroPrincess]

132. Nope, tis untrue

Despite what the right wing tells you, at least, to date, young American, a person can say/post they "hate Reagan and all he stands for" without wedgies or Ashcroft's people coming to carry you away in the middle of the night.

You don't have to like what they say, I'm not even too hep to da hate fest, but YOU can NOT deny their right to experess a controversial opinion.

[Raskolnik]

39. You don't seem to have a strict criteria.

So anyone who isn't an honorable man is the equal of Hitler?

How many leaders past or present are the equivalent of Hitler according to your standards?

I'm curious.

[Zinfandel]

43. I faintfully ask were you a thinking progressive adult when

Reagan was in power?

[Raskolnik]

46. You are avoiding my question.

I'm not sure what that has to do with it, but I was in grade school at the time. And back then I had faint idea the Reagan was a douche, but was more interested in Hot Wheels.

Were you a "thinking progressive adult" when Hitler was in power?

[Forkboy]

11. Not in your name?

Crap,I've been posting that Bush and Raygun are as bad as Hitler in your name all over the internet today.

My bad.

[Walt Starr]

17. Okay, Reagan was not as bad as Hitler

but Reagan empowered Saddam to do all of his killing, not to mentio Regan killed others throu other lackies.

Ergo, by your own standards, Reagan was WORSE than Saddam.

Also, Regan is responsible for the killing of far more people than Charles Manson, so Reagan is WORSE that Charles Manson.

Funny how this shit works, ain't it?

[BigMcLargehuge]

19. I don't think Reagan ate anyone... but he did, through inaction,

cause a whole lot of gay men to die of AIDS... so he's both better and worse the Jeffrey Dahmer.

Right?

[Walt Starr]

23. It's the killing that's the crime

so not eating people does not make him better than Dahlmer.

Come to think of it, Reagan was more evil than Ted Bundy, too!

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

18. I tend to think this is just hypebole.

Clearly Reagan and Bush are not quite as nasty as Hitler was, or at least dont publicly hold the views Hitler did.

[Raskolnik]

209. Actual common sense.

Jeez don't say that too loud our you'll be denouced and put on the list...

At least I'll have company on that list.

[stickdog]

20. Vote for Bush: He's Not as Bad as Hitler!

!!!

[Egnever]

216. And there you have it!

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :yourock: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

[noahmijo]

21. Okay two things

One: I wasn't serious about the asskicking thing. Some of you took that a little too far. In reality at worst you deserve a 5th grade beating for saying that Bush is as bad as Hitler.

Two: The "not in my name thing" was a joke that fell flat. No one speaks in my name but me.

On a serious note though I am getting fed up with the constant comparing Bush and Reagan to Hitler, and it seriously does give the freepers ammo to make us look like morons.

[charlie]

26. We could turn into a basket of puppies

and freepers wouldn't hate us any less. "Making us look bad" is hackneyed tripe, we'll always be morons to them.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[troublemaker]

41. Bush is not *as bad* as Hitler

He is something worse than Hitler. I don't know or care how God would judge the two men but given the differences in their eras, places and opportunities in life I'd have to say Bush is working out to be a lower sort of creature. (If moral assessment is just about body counts then the first European to carry the smallpox virus across the Atlantic ocean would be history's greatest monster, but he didn't even know viruses existed.)

[ElectroPrincess]

134. doing the freepers work for them?

Don't you see, young American, you're welcome to PM individual members quering their rationale for hating Reagan. But you help the freeper's have a "party fest" when you take THEIR side up for them by attempting (suggesting) that we deny free speech at this board on the sole reason that YOU personally find it tasteless. Sorry, it don't work that way. Please PM the folks who disturb you the most? That is a classier way to confront or better understand other people's mindset. You can not shut people up in a free country.

[diamond14]

22. "bush* is not a nazi, so stop saying that" flash video by symbolman

just a very short video that will help straighten it all out

"bush is not a nazi, so stop saying that"....thanks symbolman for another great flash video...

http://www.takebackthemedia.com/bushnonazi.html

[troublemaker]

24. Hitler probably belongs somewhere between Reagan and Bush

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raskolnik]

59. Not a good case.

Don't call names. Its unseemly.

Go to any history dept. of any major university and tell them that you think Hitler belongs somewhere between Reagan and W on the spectrum of evil. When they laugh at you, don't call them idiots.

Look, if you're going to throw around "Nazi", at least have a basic understanding of what you are talking about. If you think that your statement is accurate, I believe you lack that basic understanding.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[troublemaker]

93. BTW In two spots I have thrown language

from the original post in your face not noticing that you were not the original poster. For that sloppy error I WILL apologize. (The rest stands)

[Raskolnik]

104. Why do you make this personal?

You sure take things personally don't you?

Sorry you're so mad about this. If you dislike W so much that you think he's worse than Hitler, then you should care about the fact that rhetoric such as your own does not advance our cause one bit. It just ramps up the rhetoric and makes honest disagreement impossible.

[Cheswick2.0]

109. You were just outclassed in a major way

I'd give up if I were you. Sorry but you just had your metaphorical ass kicked.

[Raskolnik]

118. Not so much.

So I was "outclassed" because I favor useful, well-reasoned debate over hyperbole?

I feel that an objective observer, given the record of Hitler's deeds, should be very, VERY cautious about throwing that label around. In my experience among people who study and teach about this subject for a living, I have seen that restraint and think it is appropriate now.

[Cheswick2.0]

188. you really were

The fact that you can't recognize that fact is also symptomatic of the reason it happened in the first place.

[Raskolnik]

206. Boy, you are all some really friendly folks, aren't you?

I'll try not to argue for precision in language in the future. It just causes problems.

Everybody who disagrees with us is Hitler! Bush, Reagan, Rummy, Rush, Hannity, Dole, McCain, they're all Hitler!

[tom_paine]

202. Yep, Raskolnik

would that be with an ...ov? on the end?

:evilgrin:

To all the other asskickings, metaphorically speaking, I'll not add but instead just ask

What do you do if you categorically rule out the Hitler analogy as "politically incorrect" and someone like Hitler, though unlikely to conveniently come in an identical package, then comes along?

How will you recognize him? Will restraint and civility work against a New Hitler, even a "kinder and gentler" one?

[Raskolnik]

208. I don't think I'm being clear.

I didn't rule out the Hitler analogy, I just maintain that the whole Bush=Hitler tactic is rather lazy.

If someone were to say that W leading our country down an increasingly fascist path, then I would heartily agree. However, when we just act like freshman in college and start labeling everything within site "Hitler", we don't do ourselves any favors.

I'll repeat, an honest discussion of specific issues in which W's policies are leading us astray is one thing, but clumsy name-calling is another.

Do you disagree?

[troublemaker]

113. You are right

Bush is much better than Hitler. What was I thinking? Thank you.

on edit: Seriously, I'm trying to be nicer around here. I was set off by what I perceieved to be some language I thought was yours but was someone else's.

If you avoid the word "stupid" you'll find people friendlier in general. (Do as I say, not as I do... everyone here hates me)

The greatest crimes against a democracy are political crimes and Bush is in Hitler territory politicaly. Look at it this way... everyone who died in the holocaust would have died eventually anyway, right? And Russia and Germany were going to have the largest land war in history in the 20th century whether Hitler and Stalin were born or not, right?

But an ideal can be bigger than a person and the ideals of American government and civilization are special to the world and the world's prospects, and they don't have to be mortal. Probably, yes, but it's not certain.

Our greatest moral obligation is to try to keep those ideals alive. That's our best gift to the future.

You know history so you know that everyone kills people all the time and it becomes a meaningless blur of tragedy, but nobody has killed American civilization yet and I take the dimmest possible moral view of attempts to do so... particularly when the predicate for robbing the world of such a powerful potential force for progress is the proposition that rich people don't have enough money.

[Raskolnik]

115. Why be that way?

Does it occur to you that we are on the same side?

I simply think that making statements based more on emotion and hyperbole don't serve our cause well at all. If I thought for one second that equating W with Hitler (and I'm talking about equating, not similarities) was appropriate, I wouldn't hestitate.

As it stands now, however, such statements don't help us.

[Cheswick2.0]

116. "Us"? Do you have a mouse in your pocket?

:hi:

[Walt Starr]

117. Look buddy, I don't know you well enough to consider us

being on the "same side" get the drift?

[Raskolnik]

120. Wow. This is discouraging.

You think that because I don't cheerlead for Hitler=Bush, it must mean I don't really care as much as you, right? Because that is general impression I'm getting.

Well, considering I just got back from marching in a parade supporting my Democratic Senate nominee and Kerry for President, I don't feel like I have to justify myself to you.

I know that it isn't exactly heroic or anything, but I, along with about twenty other people, gave enough of a damn to show up and spend three hours in the sun because we think this is worth our time to get these sons of bitches out of office. Is that the "side" that you don't consider me a part of?

[Walt Starr]

122. You signed up for the first time on DU yesterday

you castigate regular DUers and you automatically expect me to consider you "on the same side" as me?

Buddy, you've got a lot to learn.

Tell me, where was the march you attended? Who is your Democratic nominee for Senate and where does he live?

[Raskolnik]

123. You want a loyalty oath with that?

Fair enough. I marched in the Roselle parade in Illinois for Barack Obama. I have volunteered for his campaigned since the primaries and will continue to do so throught the election. He is the FUTURE of the Democratic party and will kick more ass than anyone since Wellstone.

So am I supposed to ask you to prove your credibilty, or can we just be adults about this?

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raskolnik]

127. Yikes

Are you like this all the time?

I could have been a huge dick about this and gone with the "what have YOU done to get rid of W today" line. But I didn't. Because I don't really see the value in trying to out-cred some people in a message board. That way lies a big circle-jerk, which unfortunately is what happens too often.

By the way, what DID you do today to get rid of W besides hassle me?

[Walt Starr]

131. Look buddy, you started the hassle fest here

I'm only defending myself.

You stop posting replies and I stop posting replies and this thing ends.

Keep posting, and I'll keep posting.

And yes, I'm always fucking like this.

[Raskolnik]

133. I'll take that as an an answer

So you didn't do anything?

Jeez, if I thought someone was as bad as Hitler, I'd do SOMETHING.

(that was intentionally prick-like...I just had to get it out of my system..now I'm done and will behave politely)

Seriously though, if you REALLY think that W is as bad as Hitler, you better be putting up or shutting up. Get out there and march in parades, put up signs, volunteer for your local Democratic organization. DO something, if you're not already. If a dope like me can do it, anyone can.

Good luck my friend. Hopefully we'll be discussing Kerry's merits as President and Obama's as Senator (an ass-kicking Senator at that) at this time next year.

[Walt Starr]

135. Fuck that shit

And fuck anybody who has a problem with me thinking Bush and Hitler are comparable.

[Raskolnik]

138. What if I ask nicely?

So you don't want to actually do anything about W? Its easier to sit here and be pissy and curse at me, I know, but it doesn't really accomplish anything.

I'll agree to disagree with you about the Bush=Hitler fiasco that brought me to your attention. In return, I would ask you to get out and DO something that will keep that dick-head from being re-elected.

Please?

[Walt Starr]

139. All I am willing to do

is cast my vote for a not as evil fuck on November 2nd.

Any chance that I'd do more than that died in the primaries.

[Raskolnik]

140. Rather pathetic.

That is the weakest shit I've ever heard in my life. Christ this exact thing pisses me off to know end. Goddamn.

You spout on and on about how terrible W is, but you're not willing to do a goddamn thing about it? That is pathetic.

Don't worry though, I'm sure someone else will pick up the slack so you can stay at home an bitch at me about not hating W enough. Would you like someone to bring you a bottle of soda and some chips to make you more comfortable?

Goddamit man, get off your ass and do something! Anything! Write a check...go to a meeting...hand out buttons...something for God's sake. Something!

Be an adult and suck it up. Seriously.

Goddamn.

[Walt Starr]

141. Hey, I gave it my shot

but the primaries decided a not as evil as Bush candidate would be my only choice.

:shrug:

I'll vote for the not as evil as Bush candidate, but I won;t like and I doubt much will change.

[Forkboy]

143. hey Walt

I brought you a bottle of soda and some chips to make you more comfortable.

Keep up the fun :D

[Walt Starr]

144. Sorry

Season Finale of Sopranos is on. Gotta see who gets whacked. Looks like Christopher may be the first.

[Forkboy]

146. aw man

you're more fun than tv :thumbsup:

[Raskolnik]

148. I don't use the word hero very often...

If I thought someone was as bad as Hitler, you can be damn sure that I'd do more than sit at home on my computer complaining to some people who already agree with me.

When W is defeated, you better not take one ounce of pleasure in it or gloat at all, because you didn't do anything to bring it about.

And god help you if W wins, because then you'll have it on your conscience that you couldn't be bothered to do a damn thing to stop someone as bad as Hitler.

And if I'm sounding dramatic (and I'm sure I am), its because you rant about Hitler=Bush, but are too lazy to do anything about it, and that blows my freaking mind. GODDAMN!!!

Have fun watching TV, you American Hero.

[Forkboy]

149. have a cream soda

you're getting tense.

[Raskolnik]

150. What do you think?

What do you think about this whole do-nothing but say-anything attitude? Do you think it will get W out of office?

Personally, I don't.

[Forkboy]

151. I think one person's opinion on the internet

is worth fuck-all.

Mine included.

[Raskolnik]

152. So...

So you agree that we're just jerking off unless we get out there and DO something that gets W out?

It just baffles me when people like the other fella bitch and moan all day but when push comes to shove, they don't get off their asses and do something to make a difference. It makes me mad.

[Forkboy]

153. Maybe he's just pushing your buttons

It does seem an easy thing to do if one so desired.

[Raskolnik]

156. You didn't answer...

You know that doesn't answer my question.

If someone cares enough to bitch, they should care enough to do something about it.

He doesn't seem to think that way. Do you?

[Forkboy]

158. I do think that way

but it's America.If he chooses to just bitch he can.But we have no idea what he really does or doesn't do.I have no idea what 99.99% of the people here do to help the cause.Hence,why get all angry over an internet poster?

I'm going to bed (not much sleep last night).If you have any more questions I'll answer tommorrow,or later tonight if I can't sleep again.

Have a good night Raskolnik.

[Raskolnik]

159. Good night Forkyboy...wherever you are...

I'm not questioning his right to say what he wishes.

I know what he does for our cause because he said himself that the only thing he was willing to do was vote in November because his guy didn't win the primaries. That is stupid and rather childish in my opinion.

I got angry at him because he went the distance with me debating whether Hitler=Bush, telling me that I didn't hate W enough to merit respect, and THEN he tells me he doesn't plan on doing anything about it. That sucks.

[Walt Starr]

157. I don't believe in Kerry, never have and never will

but I know a lot of people on the fence this year. Don't believe in Kerry or Bush and are pretty much apathetic about this year.

Maybe , just maybe, seeing somebody like me who dislikes Kerry EXTREMELY, but still has a Kerry bumper sticker, still puts a Kerry sign in his yard, tells them how much he's donated to Kerry, and gets off his ass to go vote against Bush, will convince them to at least vote against Bush.

And that example is worth more than ten posturing marchers and twenty volunteers on a fucking phone any day, because I tell them how evil Bush is and I convince them that Kerry probably won't be as bad.

[Raskolnik]

160. Oh please,

Keep telling yourself that when the rest of us are out there carrying your water. Don't worry, I'm willing to do it.

All your posturing about how bad W is doesn't amount to shit if you are unwilling to act like an adult and make a difference. Harsh, I know, but we're in this thing for all the marbles, and I don't have patience for self-righteous people who sit at home while others do the work.

[Walt Starr]

162. Marching and phoning does nothing

with the possible exception of turning off potential voters.

You couldn't carry my water because you aren't even carrying your own.

[Raskolnik]

164. You've got to be kidding me, right?

So in your astute political opinion, campaigning for a candidate doesn't actually do anything of value? Registering voters, getting people to the polls, advertising the candidate, etc. is just useless? Why do we bother then? I guess we're just not as smart (or possibly lazy) as you.

Good lord man, you can't possibly be that ignorant of how elections work, can you? If you have some evidence that campaigning doesn't accomplish anything, I'd love to hear it.

I'm going to keep repeating it until I can wrap my head around it: you think Bush=Hitler, but are unwilling to make an effort to improve the situation. Nope. I still can't believe it.

[troublemaker]

126. Raskolnik, you don't know the half of it

As Neil Young said, paranoia strikes deep... just hang out and hold your temper and make allowances. It's frustrating, but worth it to have a forum you can go to when you just need to say something.

Just remember that you can never assume a sense of humor on the other side. Check the first 20 or so replies to my 1000th post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x1238898

[Raskolnik]

128. You're my new friend

Thanks, that helps.

[charlie]

155. Ah, Barack

That guy's been getting bigtime laudatory press lately. I've never seen him live or on television (I live overseas). Is he really that good?

[Raskolnik]

165. Obama

Better. I am not exaggerating one bit when I assure you that he will be the future of the Democratic party. And we couldn't be luckier for it.

Imagine a cross between the late Paul Simon and the late Paul Wellstone, and you've got Mr. Obama.

I don't want to be a shill here, but I just can't recommend him enough. See his site for some more info: www.obamaforillinois.com

Go Obama!

[charlie]

175. Woo...

There's been a big ol' hole in my soul since Wellstone died. I slept better just knowing the guy was around. I do miss the bowtied Paul too. If Obama's all that, I'll be immensely cheered. Many thanks, I'll be keeping an eye on the guy!

[Walt Starr]

183. Obama should be running for president

He's that good.

[Raskolnik]

200. One step at a time.

Then why aren't you out ther DOING something?

I'm serious. Send me your information in an email and I will get you in touch with a local group so you can start putting these strong feelings into action.

You don't have to commit to hours and hours of work every week, but trust me, if you can just get out and do SOMETHING, you will make a difference.

Can I count you in?

[troublemaker]

119. But don't you see,

I say things because I think they are true, or to be contrary, or for the pleasure of it, not as a propagandist.

There is no one in America reading this thread who will vote based on it, and if there are such people it's not certain which way they would be swayed.

We should speak what we feel, not to deceive others about our feelings.

The traits Bush has are, in my sense of people and history, morally less desirable than Hitler's traits. So that's the personal morality of it, IMO. Others can disagree.

Because the US is a hyper-power the potential effects of Bush's actions are more dire than Hitlers. Bush could kill far more than 12 million before midnight tonight. So the potential for harm weighs against Bush. (A merely irresponsible US President can do more harm than the most evil-minded third world dictator)

And Bush grew up with Hitler as a counter-example, so he cannot claim not to know where fascist style politics can lead, yet he employs them just the same.

Or I can argue the opposite... but since some people in this thread chose to denounce people taking one side of a highly debatable issue as under-educated clods as if there could only BE one side to it, I chose to side with the more controversial POV. That's all.

[Raskolnik]

121. Fair enough

I understand where your coming from.

Do you understand my concerns about this particular issue and the pitfalls it entails?

[troublemaker]

125. Of course I do

I cringe at half the stuff people say on DU, but they probably cringe at stuff I say too.

I'm cool with Bush=Hitler but I draw the line at 'bush ordered 9/11' and 'the CIA cut off berg's head.' Those two things are simple questions of fact and aren't so open to free-wheeling debate, IMO.

But everyone hates me for my anti-conspiracy rants so I generally try to avoid those threads. I figure either my criticisms hurt and that's just mean, or else they actually ENJOY getting angry with my criticisms, and I don't like that prospect either. Best to skip it.

re: Bush and Hitler. Bush is the closest thing to Hitler we have ever had here on the presidential level. The rest is kind of a Babe Ruth versus Bary Bonds thing... nobody knows how to compare morality from different eras. That's why this is a perennial flame-fest topic here.

I'd rather see stuff like Torquemada vs. Ashcroft... mix it up a little.

[Raskolnik]

129. Well said.

Fair enough. I can respect the fact that you've put some thought into this and remained civil to me. I disagree with you on this one issue, but in the end we are probably working towards the same things.

Thanks.

[Malva Zebrina]

130. that was interesting although I fail to understand your proposition

or accusation that Bush is worse than Hitler, but thanks for your input anyhow.

[Walt Starr]

30. Possibly

It depends upon how high Bush's body count gets, now doesn't it?

[Raskolnik]

35. Not useful.

Oh please. W is the worst president we have ever had in my opinion, but that does not make him equal to Hitler by a long stretch.

[Walt Starr]

42. His body count total hasn't been added up yet

Wait for it, he could outdo Hitler yet.

[Raskolnik]

45. A question.

Do you know very much about Hitler and National Socialism?

[Walt Starr]

47. Actually, yes I do

that's why the similarities of Bush's rise to Hitler's rise are so frightening.

[Raskolnik]

49. Similarities are not equalities.

If you really do know very much, you'll see that the U.S. in 2004 and Germany in 1932 are very different places.

Similarities? Fine. I can live with similarities. But equating is just stupid. Cautionary tales are useful and appropiate, but hyperbole is not.

[Walt Starr]

56. Bush is getting close

and he's got his finger on the button and he's religioiusly insane.

It is quite possible Bush will end up being WORSE than Hitler.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[troublemaker]

51. Body count, schmody count

Body counts are a terrible measure of badness. Otherwise all the worst people that ever lived would be Chinese.

During the Cuban missle crisis Curtis LeMay took a serious run at killing more people than Hitler, Stalin and Mao combined ever even looked sideways at. But factors outside his immediate control went the other way so we got lucky. Nobody seems to consider Curtis LeMay the worst person that ever lived, but maybe we should.

[Raskolnik]

25. People who don't know anything about history shouldn't speak for us.

I could not agree with you more.

People who make that comparison are either willfully ignorant of what Hitler perpetrated, willfully ignorant of what Reagan did, or both. I for one have no use for people who make the Hitler comparison with no understanding of history.

[Trajan]

36. Saying Hitler = Reagan = Bush is wrong ...

BUT: saying their are NO parallels between Bush, Reagan, the GOP AND Fascist belief systems is ALSO wrong ...

The parallels are many: and we refuse to deny them to give you petty succor ...

Paranoid shift

A conservative, authoritarian style, with public appearances in military uniform (which no previous American president has ever done while in office). Government by secrecy, propaganda and deception. Open assaults on labor unions and workers' rights. Preemptive war and militant nationalism. Contempt for international law and treaties. Suspiciously convenient "terrorist" attacks, to justify a police state and the suspension of liberties. A carefully manufactured image of "The Leader," who's still just a "regular guy" and a "moderate." "Freedom" as the rationale for every action. Fantasy economic growth, based on unprecedented budget deficits and massive military spending. And a cold, pragmatic ideology of fascism—including the violent suppression of dissent and other human rights; the use of torture, assassination and concentration camps; and most important, Benito Mussolini's preferred definition of "fascism" as "corporatism, because it binds together the interests of corporations and the state."

[Raskolnik]

40. Not the same thing.

I didn't say there weren't any parallels. What I am saying is that it isn't honest or useful to equate two things that are very different. Maybe not as different as you or I would like, sure, but I truly believe that anyone who maintains that the two are equals is woefully misinformed.

[troublemaker]

48. That's what you say

You're talking as if these concepts of "good" and "bad" and "worse" were as precise as math. There are a thousand ways Bush is better than Hitler and a thousand ways Hitler is better than Bush.

In the most patriotic part of my heart Bush is much worse than Hitler because Bush is a far greater threat to what's good in American civilization than Hitler ever was.

In a more universal moral sense, yes, Hitler killed a lot more people, though I'll bet Bush is ahead of Hitler year for year, so you're really offering a prediction that Bush will finish his career having been better than Hitler. I agree the odds are on your side, but primarily because of good things about America, not good things about Bush.

[ElectroPrincess]

137. There you go again :P

Gosh, honestly, what part of "free speech" can you not process? If you think the other party is ignorant, just ignore them. But PLEASE, in all sincerity, don't drag out this, now meaningless saga, much longer? <cringing in pain>

[mw]

33. What are you? A Hitler lover?

You don't like smearing Hitler's good name by comparing him to the likes of Bush?

[seventhson]

37. Bush IS Hitler. The Bushes financed the Holocaust and sponsored

Hitler. THAT is just well-documented history.

The Bushes also tried to kill Reagan as well so Poppy could take over but they only seriously disabled him and were able to take over anyway. (see Tarpley.net the Bush bio)

So Bush is the equivalent of those he and his insane clown posse propped up and profitted from in the deaths of millions of Jews and anyone else they despised.

Today in America is JUST LIKE Nazi Germany in 1938.

Thinking Bush is not as bad as Hitler is just a lack of historical knowledge and perspective.

[Raskolnik]

44. You may not be the most astute observer.

You have a poor sense of history. I really can't say it more directly or politely than that.

The Prescott Bush didn't "finance" the Holocaust...he made some shady deals with Nazi Germany that should have sullied his family name for generations. Unfortunately it didn't.

Saying America is "just like" Nazi Germany is disrepectful to those who endured the very real horrors of WWII and to those who are currently suffering because of W's policies. It is hyperbole that serves no one except cranks.

[seemslikeadream]

53. It's time for another Bush/Nazis thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic...

read learn

Know the enemy, and never forget

[Raskolnik]

57. That doesn't really cut it.

No offense, but when your "source" for your claims is a DU thread, you may not have the strongest of cases.

When you've studied Nazi Germany as much as I have, you get a little testy when people throw around the label without really understanding what it means. Far too often, people use "Nazi" as a synonym for "really really bad", when it just isn't. Just because a gov't does something bad, abuses their power, and hurts/kills a lot of people does NOT make it National Socialism.

Read a book and find out for yourself.

[Walt Starr]

61. It's an INCREDIBLY good source

As is the case with many DU threads you could use as a source, that one is a set of links to other sources.

Many times DU threads are created with the expressed purpose of collecting links to sources on subject matters. At times, hundreds of sources are collected.

[Eloriel]

66. It's a shame you automatically dismiss DU threads as sources

At its best, which is often, DU is renown for the research threads that pop up periodically. Have you bothered to read any of the material linked to in that DU thread -- or the thread itself? Somehow I doubt it.

I could add a number of links myself (not necessarily DU threads, but perhaps some more), but if you're not going to read the material offered to you, what's the point?

I will tell you this. Since I've been at DU (and I joined when there were about 12,000 members), I've learned several things:

a) Don't automatically dismiss what are often referred to as "conspiracy theories."

b) There is an unbroken line of war profiteering, Nazi-sympathizing, and fascist influence in the U.S. since Samuel Bush (Prescott's dad) and the Bush family has been at the heart of all of it.

c) The parallels between what Hitler did in Nazi Germany leading up to (but not -- so far -- including) the Holocaust with what Bush has done are eery and compelling. ANYone who ignores them -- or, in your case, thinks they "know" their history and there are none -- are in denial.

d) The fascist (Nazi) infiltration didn't just happen in the U.S., which means our problems are indeed global, not just domestic.

Here, btw, is my favorite new definition of fascism (and another link you probably won't bother to read):

"fas-cism (fbsh'iz'em) n. A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism."
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0316-08.htm

And, no, we don't exactly have a dictatorship. But we ALSO have only the illusion of democracy, esp. given these vote-manipulating voting machines. ("You can't vote 'em out if you never voted 'em in.") AND, Bush already has all the tools he needs to do whatever he wants. General Franks (or was it Zinni?) already confirmed for us that another "terrorist attack" on the U.S. WOULD result in the suspension of the Constitution and martial law.

So, AFIAC you either don't know your Nazi history all that well, or you don't know Bush and his actions all that well. "Things would be a lot easier if this were a dictatorship -- just as long as I was the dictator."

[Raskolnik]

71. There is a whole range of bad other than Nazi.

Good lord people! Try and get this through your head: it may make you feel better to think that by fighting W's agenda, we're really fighting Nazis. It does lend a certain Indiana Jones credibility to the whole struggle, doesn't it? But it is not accurate and not helpful to the real debate. National Socialism is a specific form of gov't led by a uniquely evil man in a unique set of circumstances. National Socialism isn't a substitute for "bad" or even "evil".

For God's sake, Stalin was probably the second worst person who came around in the last century, but does that automatically make him a Nazi? Well, the fact that he and Hitler killed about thirty million of each others people would tend to point out that no, you can be bad, even evil, without being a Nazi. That is my point.

W is a terrible, terrible president that is leaving a legacy of destruction that our grandchildren will be cleaning up. His administration echoes some aspects of fascism that make me extremely uncomfortable, and we should all be on our guard for more. (read Robert Paxton's "Anatomy of Fascism" for some excellent sources) Quite frankly he scares the Hell out of me on a daily basis.

I don't discount conspiracy theories out of hand. I DO tend to discount people who's hyperbole makes rational discourse about the very real deeds of W's admin impossible. W is not a Nazi, he's *just* the worst president we've ever had by a long stretch.

[Eloriel]

74. Bush IS a fascist

Nazism was just one form of fascism. You keep bringing up the Social Democrats -- that just happened to be Hitler's political party, AFAIC. It's irrelevent.

Good GREIF, man, GO DO SOME FRICKIN' RESEARCH. (I'd load you up if you gave even the slightest clue that you were willing to -- but NOOOOOOOO, you've got your own little pet theories and don't even bother to read anything offered here. So why should anyone spend any time hauling out MORE links you won't read?)

Quit responding to people as if you actually have a clue. You know NOTHING at this point, that's quite obvious -- and what you think you know isn't working. You're a danger to yourself.

And also -- quit building straw men:

STRAWMAN #1.
Few if any people have ever called Reagan either a Nazi or a fascist (a few have), tho I willingly admit he certainly paved the way for the neo-con fascists. But many, including myself, see strong parallels with Bush and ALSO see that "unbroken line" I spoke about (and you promptly ignored).

STRAWMAN #2
National Social Democrats. Irrelevent. Nobody but you is talking about them.

STRAWMAN #3
Stalin. Oh, puhleeze. Fascism is rabidly anti-communist. Of COURSE Stalin wasn't a Nazi. You're engaging in -- or fighting as a strawman -- a little freeper logic here.

STRAWMAN #4
W is not a Nazi,
Actually, most people you're arguing with don't refer to Bush as "a Nazi" -- they compare him, and rightfully so, to Hitler. There is a difference. Mussolini wasn't a Nazi either, but he was definitely a fascist. So, AFAIC, you're right: Bush isn't a Nazi. But he is certainly a fascist (whether HE knows it or not or would refer to himself that way or not). PNACers are fascists and in fact one of them, Michael Ledeen, calls himself a "universal fascist." Universal fascism is fascism that admits Jews. True. Go research Leo Strauss. (And there again, I could load you up with links, if you gave ANY indication you were going to take even a few minutes of your time to read them.)

[seventhson]

76. Eloriel - Just a note of correction

The National Socialists stood AGAINST the Social Democratic Party in Nazi Germany and the Social Democrats were outlawed by Hitler. Ot can sometimes be confusing because Hitler used "National Socialism" as a propaganda label to confuse folks.

In reality Naziism and Stalin's Totalitarianism were both state fascism and equal -- just like the Bush's current form of leadership and methodology of power: Might, lies, absolute power, terrorism and hate.

We have a small vestige of Democracy left in the US -- a very small vestige which we will lose imminently if we fail to use it to prevent its total failure.

[Eloriel]

100. Thanks for the correction

Not sure I agree with you re Stalin's Totalitarianism being fascism. Seems to me were that the case they'd have gotten along famously with Nazi Germany and so many of the U.S. industrialists who supported Hitler. Remember, the whole animus behind our recruitment and safekeeping of the Nazis into the CIA post WW2 was to fight communism (USSR and then elsewhere) and indeed that applies to most of our foreign policy over these decades: protecting capitalism by destroying communism and socialism around the world.

I DO agree with you Stalin's state was totalitarianism, but fascism? Doesn't fit right with me. But I do readily admit I'm not that well-read on that subject. If you have some links, please share them so I can understand where you're coming from.

[seventhson]

105. Here we go

Both Stalin and Hitler were financed by the same wall street banks (Morgan, Rockefeller, Bush, Harriman, Dulles, etc.). They played both ends against the middle.

Slave labor and population reduction (and selling weapons to both or all sides) is their profit motif and modus operandi.

The late Anthony Sutton was so extreme (and kinda right) that he called rockefeller, nixon, even FDR et al socialists promoting their new world order (banking, international finance and wall street). The only thing he had wrong was the new world order. Professor Carroll Quigley of Harvard and Georgetown (and Clinton's chief mentor) writes extensively about these global financial netwroks in his book "Tragedy and Hope..."

Read some of Suttons work on who was financing Stalin (easily google-able) and you will see in time that they were the same folks financing Hitler (and, ba-dump) mostly capitalists in the US.

FDR tried to stop them (feebly) and Truman and Eisenhower basically caved for them. JFK was going to stop them but he was murdereed. Same with RFK. LBJ was in league with them and Nixon was a main player - cutting the deals with China which allowed western money to flow to their slave labor camps (as Truman had permitted with Stalin at the end of WWII - they actually printed their own US money in the USSR to buy Western technology). Reagan was used by them as was Carter and, to some extent, even Clinton. But the Bushes are the worst. Only their ties are directly related back to the original architects of the Third Reich financed from their offices in lower Manhattan.

The people are slaughtered and pay the bills for the death machinery and the murderers.

W is just the next generation of the same global fascist total hegemonic empire run by the same players.

[Eloriel]

166. Well, interesting

And of course a good bit of that I'm well aware of. Didn't know (or forgot) that the industrialists were also financing Stalin.

However, that doesn't support Stalin = fascist, which is what I was asking about. Perhaps my question was unclear.

[seventhson]

192. Revolutionaries of the period considered them two sides of the same coin

Hitler and Stalin, that is.

As I have mentioned in the past, my father worked with the underground in Europe which consisted of , among other things, disaffected socialists from Russia and democratic socialists from Germany.

They perceived both Stalin and Hitler as Totalitarians which, ultimately, in my opinion, boils down to dictators who utilized fascist methodologies in service to the elite (in league with western capitalists) for total and corrupt power resulting in terror and the death of millions.

Fascism is the use of absolute power and terror to control the masses for the benefit of those in power.

Stalin certainly qualifies, even if he did not call his totalitarianism fascism. Its results and methodologies were the same.

[Raskolnik]

214. A friendly correction.

I say this with respect, since you obviously have put some thought into your positions.

You are using a less than accurate definition of Fascism. (I would recommend Robert Paxton's excellent book "The Anatomy of Fascism" if anyone else was interested)

Classical Fascism really relies on a base of disaffected military and Nationalist philosophy combined with corporate interests. (a cursory definition, I know) Stalinism, while obviously horrible in its own way, doesn't really fit.

Thanks.

[Raskolnik]

102. National Socialism WAS the Nazi party. Jeez

Actually I was referring to National Socialism, i.e. the Nazi party.

If you don't even know that those Nazi movement was called National Socialism, I'm not sure that you are well-versed in history.

Read my post again. All I am saying is that when we here post again and again that "W (or Reagan) is Hitler" we are being intellectually dishonest and rather lazy.

None of what you wrote disputes that point.

[seventhson]

82. Not exactly right: Naziism IS evil and other evils have moral equivalence

You say: "National Socialism is a specific form of gov't led by a uniquely evil man in a unique set of circumstances."

Naziism was not so unique and neither was the evil of Hitler. Almost a whole continent of "aryans" began singing the Horst Wessel song and crying out for Jewish blood and mass murder.

If you have read Konrad Heiden's works - especially "Der Fuehrer" (Houghton Mifflin, 1944) you would well know from this definitive work - far superior in my opinion to any subsequent effort, that National Socialism was NOT a specific form of government. It was WHATEVER whim Hitler and his propagandists had for it from day to day. It had no real idealogy: except brute force and power using whatever propaganda would convince people to adhere to it to their deaths for the profits of peopole like the Bushes, Rockefellers, Dulles, Morgans, Walkers, Harrimans, etc..

I am of the opinion that it was SOLELY a mind f*ck with no idealogy at all (even Hitler began to describe the aryan mysticism as mumbo jumbo when it suited him). Heiden confirms this.

I believe the same principles (or lack thereof)operate today.

Fascist power by terror, confusion, deceit, and murder.

And confusing the people into supporting it or at least to not oppose it.

The only difference is the names - not the entities or the methodolgies of evil.

[troublemaker]

90. Bushism is an off-shoot of Nazism

Not Stalinism, Maoism, classical Italian Fascism, Japanese militarism or even American conservatism.

As you must know, given all your years of study, Hitler's most distinctive feature was his novel manipulation of Democratic institutions. He was the first truly modern politician.

The holocaust is a tedious historical distraction from the real threat posed by Nazism. WWI proved admirably that modern technology could kill people in previously undreamed of numbers. We didn't need Hitler to show us that obvious truth. And genocide was obviously nothing new.

What was new was a mass-communicated opera of death-loving lies able to turn a major industrialized nation into a suicide cult. WWII was a murder-suicide... you understand that, right? Hitler was not Napoleon or Alexander or Tamerlane.

The world is a subtler place then perhaps you realize. Aesthetics is key to our understanding (or anticipation) of complex dynamic systems because simple reason and orderly metrics aren't up to the task. That is a sad limitation on our hopes of agreement through education, but reductionism cannot handle human dynamics. I wish it could!

This is all about POLITICS.

So don't compare the holocaust to the Iraq war.

Compare of the shadow of Hitler's plane moving over the streets and buildings from the opening of TRIUMPH OF THE WILL with Bush's carrier landing stunt.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raskolnik]

169. I don't agree.

You don't have to be sarcastic. I'm not questioning your integrity, I'm just disagreeing about this subject.

I have studied this subject with a fair degree of rigor. I'm not an expert compared to some, but I do take the subject seriously. Sorry if that makes me sound like a pointy headed intellectual.

I simply disagree about rather casual use of the term "Nazi", when it should retain its original and very meaningful definition, in my opinion.

[Name removed]

211. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raskolnik]

215. Have I been immature?

I'm not sure what you base that on.

Have I been rude to you in some way? I apologize if I have.

Calling me rude does not really change my position however. I still think that Bush=Hitler is not useful to the debate and counter-productive in the long run.

Respectfully.

[troublemaker]

87. LOL "When you've studied Nazi Germany as much as I have..."

Get over yourself. There are people in here that wouldn't know a swastika from a smiley face and there are people in here that know more about the Third Reich than any man should know about anything.

If you start measuring yourself in those terms you're going to get your ass handed to you by a paranoid schizophrenic who knows more than you do about the Third Reich yet has concluded that Hitler is living in his basement. I guess you'll have to slavishly accept his conclusions.

[Raskolnik]

103. Knowing what you're talking about isn't a bad thing...

And the people who think that Hitler is equitable to W or Reagan fall sqauarely in the category of peole who don't know a swastika from a smiley face.

[seventhson]

80. You call them "shady deals" as if they were NOT the financing of death

camps, slave labor camps, crematoria, gas chambers, and the Nazi war machine.

The Bushes were involved in the financing of ALL these operations through the Silesian Steel Company and otehr enterprises which they raised investment funds for in conjunction with the operation of the death camps.

They were not the SOLE financiers of the Holocaust but they were principal money-raisers for the Nazis.

NOW - Bush (the pResident) profitted and STILL profits from those investments as well as the fascist entities which he is STILL a part of and a leader of. They are no different from the original backers of Hitler and they have covered up theri crimes against humanity making them accessories after the fact and direct beneficiaries of the Holocaust.

As for my poor sense of history I have lectured and spoken at Holocaust conferences and participated in the creation of documentaries and exhibits viewed globally - at Yad Vashem , at the US Holocaust Museum, at the United Nations in NY and Geneva, and even in Congress.

The direct lines of history trace to the Bushes as both architects of the Holocaust and Nazi nightmare as well as the architects of global fascism they are implementing today. It is a continuous stream of terror and hate driven by love of profit (lucre, mammon) and necrophilic lust for the power to annihilate human beiungs. No different today than sixty or seventy years ago; the same business entities and families and the mantel of power in the antisemitic and ghoulish elites.

YOU defend Bush , sir, NOT me.

[Raskolnik]

168. Not quite.

If you think that the Bush family was the "principal money-raisers for the Nazis", then you don't really know what you are talking about. The Bush family was involved with Nazi Germany via business deals to an extent that their family name SHOULD have been sullied for the rest of the century. That didn't happen unfortunately.

History doesn't reflect your claims, no matter how much you'd like it to.

I'm NOT defending Bush. I'm arguing against terms losing their meaning. I think its important.

[seventhson]

180. The companies Bush dealth with provided up to 60% of Nazi war materials

in some segments of production (look up Silesian Steel Corp. and the Nazi war machine . Add the name Bush in for a google-y thrill) according to Congressional hearings held to investigate the matter.

The Bush compamies were siezed as Nazi assets and the companies identified as held (by the Bushes) as Nazi agents.

I am afraid that you either do not know or are wunwilling to admit this history. I admit it has been deeply and intentionally buried by the spooky death's-head elites, but the truth is oozing out steadily and efforts to cover it up or justify it only slime those who try to protect the Bushes from their karma for supporting Hitler.


Here is one good source to start with:

http://www.lpdallas.org/features/draheim/dr991216.htm

[Raskolnik]

181. Still not quite.

Yes, the companies Bush dealt with were provided up to 60% of the capital, which is a far different thing that saying that the Bush family was the principal finaciers of Nazi Germany.

All I'm arguing for is intellectual honesty here. The Bushes should have paid more of a price for their dealings, you'll get no argument from me. But we don't need to be dishonest about their actual role; their real one was bad enough in my opinion.

[seventhson]

193. If providing 60% of the capital doesn't make the Bushes a PRINCIPAL, ...?

Investor in Hitler, then WHAT DOES???

Basic math and logic makes my case for me here.

I was actually referring to the war materials provided - though, and not the capital. The capital may have been MORE than 60%, but I know that, in some elements of the Nazi war machine, the Bush companies provided as much as 60% of the material war supplies like steel or armaments or explozives.


I will get a breakdown if you (or anyone)wants.

[Raskolnik]

213. They were parts...not the focus.

The Bush family had CONNECTIONS to the people that provided a great deal of capital for the Nazis. That is not the same thing as providing it themselves. A distubing amount of U.S. businessmen had connections to finance companies involved with the Germans, but it would be disingenuous to imply that each of them financed the Nazis on their own.

I'll repeat for the Nth time: what the Bush family did was bad enough without resorting to tenuous logic that can be easily refuted.

It is much more to our benefit to be intellectually honest and concentrate on actual misdeads rather than hyperbole. That said, I can see you are passionate about this issue and I can respect that. I simply disagree about the conclusions you draw from the evidence.

[seventhson]

225. No - they were the investors and the decision-makers

EVERYONE has "connections" (Kevin Bacon, etc.).

But the Bushes were directly involved in the financing of Hitler and the Nazi death machine.

You are simply wrong on this count.

[Raskolnik]

227. Sigh...

I don't think you're understanding my argument, so I'll just wish you well.

[RetroLounge]

163. Wow, your a regular defender of the Shrub Clan...

:eyes:

RL

[Raskolnik]

167. Nope.

Because I think that words mean things and these particular words mean particular things?

I am NOT arguing the decency or morality of W, I am arguing for using words with their actual meanings. Call me crazy.

[Zinfandel]

38. Both were fasist! Now let's say a prayer?

GET REAL!

[Oddman]

54. Maybe we should say . . .

bush IS Hitler!


A Pathetic Excuse for a pResident

[meow mix]

55. its true

worse than hitler.
they use america to pursue thier evil murderous agenda = worse.
just because the dead are obscured doesnt make it ok..

all these evil-apologizing threads are making me ill
(gag)

[i_c_a_White_Ghost]

58. bush is a bad, bad man

if he had the power Hitler enjoyed he would have set out to rule and subjugate the world! I have no doubt of that. How is that any different then what the Nazi objective was?

Bush is using the United States might to impose his "fundie" doctrine upon the world.

[latebloomer]

60. To paraphrase Bill Maher

Don't compare Bush to Hitler!

Hitler was a war veteran
Hitler had a mustache
Hitler was elected.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[billbuckhead]

63. American genocide is never as bad as German genocide

Hitler was inspired by what Americans did to the Native Americans and African slaves. Why couldn't he do the same thing to the Jews and Slavs?

[seemslikeadream]

67. Oh yes and what "Americans" did to freed slaves - postcards !

WITHOUT SANCTUARY


Lynchers often paraded their victim down the main street, through black neighborhoods, and in front of "colored schools" that were in session.

Jesse Washington, seventeen years old, was the chief suspect in the May 8, 1916, murder of Lucy Fryer of Robinson, Texas, on whose farm he worked as a laborer. After the lynching, Washington's corpse was placed in a burlap bag and dragged around City Hall Plaza, through the main streets of Waco, and seven miles to Robinson, where a large black population resided.

His charred corpse was hung for public display in front of a blacksmith shop. The sender of this card, Joe Meyers, an oiler at the Bellmead car department and a Waco resident, marked his photo with a cross (now an ink smudge to left of victim).


This card bears the advertising stamp, "katy electric studio temple texas. h. lippe prop." inscribed in brown ink: "This is the Barbecue we had last night my picture is to the left with a cross over it your son Joe."

Repeated references to eating are found in lynching-related correspondence, such as "coon cooking," "barbecue," and "main fare."
http://www.musarium.com/withoutsanctuary/main.html

This is a token of a great day we had in Dallas


Silhouetted corpse of African American Allen Brooks hanging from Elk's Arch, surrounded by spectators. March 3, 1910. Dallas, Texas.

Tinted lithographed postcard. 3 1/2 x 5 1/2 in.

Printed inscription on border, "LYNCHING SCENE, DALLAS, MARCH 3, 1910". Penciled inscription on border, "All OK and would like to get a post from you. Bill, This was some Raw Bunch."




This postcard, addressed to Dr. J.W.F. Williams, LaFayette, Christian County, Kentucky documents the sentiments of one lunchtime spectator.

"Well John - This is a token of a great day we had in Dallas, March 3, a negro was hung for an assault on a three year old girl. I saw this on my noon hour. I was very much in the bunch. You can see the negro hanging on a telephone pole. "


http://www.musarium.com/withoutsanctuary/main.html

[Raskolnik]

72. Well you can't argue with the evil present.

I'm not sure how the fact that Americans have a history of horrible treatment of slaves and Native Americans makes the case that Bush is a Nazi.

[seemslikeadream]

88. Those people were not slaves sir

they were American citizens!

[noiretextatique]

99. some call it genocide, not just "horrible treatment"

the american holocaust.

[Ferretherder]

68. OK, here's my take on this here Bush/Hitler thingy...

...you guys who keep saying that we should all just stop making the comparisons between Bush and Hitler, let me ask you a question. At what point in this rush to Bush's personal Armageddon do we allow ourselves to compare our nightmare-like present reality to the written-in-stone, observable facts laid out in our history books?

Hitler started off as just some 'over-the-top' ideologue, bent on saving Germany from a humiliating ruin at the hands of a lopsided postwar treaty, by spurring a new sense of nationalistic fervor in his country. He was, at first, just this blustering 'crackpot', with one or two good ideas mixed in with a whole lot of hateful and paranoiac delusions, but, for the most part, just an annoying 'fringe-element' figure.

Now, had a few more GERMANS started making comparisons between this 'fringe-element' figure and other bigoted, racist power-mad leaders throughout history, and effected the necessary changes in the political leanings at the time, well,.......what a totally DIFFERENT crop of history books might we be reading from, right now?

In other words, guys, we aren't comparing Bush, or for that matter, Reagan, to Hitler's entire life-legacy........we are comparing the men and their motives; their sense of divine right; their visions of themselves and the 'elite' of their societies to dictate to the rest of the world what is 'right' and 'wrong'.

Is Bush Hitler?

Hmmmm. Are we going to let time tell us the answer to that question?

Or are we going to make the requisite comparisons and act on our instincts to alter a possibly horrible repeat of history?

Just my two cents.

Edit: spelling.

[BeFree]

69. Bush is worse than Hitler!

Why? Why do I say that?

Hitler is dead. He can do nothing to me.

bush, however, has his finger on the trigger. He not only has shown he has an itchy trigger finger, he has implied he'd like to pull it.

Hitler has nothing on GWB. Not today, not now.

[snippy]

70. Karl Rove was the first person to compare Bush to Hitler.

Of course it was in an admiring and worshipful way. Drudge excerpting from Woodward's book Bush At War:

ROVE THOUGHT POST-9/11 WORLD SERIES GAME LIKE NAZI RALLY

"The president emerged wearing a New York Fire Department windbreaker. He raised his arm and gave a thumbs-up to the crowd on the third base side of the field. Probably 15,000 fans threw their arms in the air imitating the motion.

He then threw a strike from the rubber, and the stadium erupted. Watching from owner George Steinbrenner’s box, Karl Rove thought, It’s like being at a Nazi rally." (p. 277)

http://www.drudgereport.com/wood.htm (emphasis added).

[Cleita]

73. Required reading

To compare either of these two to Hitler is ludicrous and quite frankly you sound like an uneducated dopey little teenie bopper who needs an ass kicking.

It seems that you need a little educating. Pick up a copy of William Shirer's "The Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich". If you can't see the similarities between the Nazis and this PNAC administration, then no one will be able to convince you otherwise.

You are right though, there is no comparison between * and Hitler. Hitler was smart and a brilliant orator. You can't accuse * of that

[Eloriel]

75. Here's another good post from that other DU thread

(The one that our naysayer thinks is useless as a "source"):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=199853#199887

Octafish (1000+ posts) Thu Aug-21-03 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #23

24. Remember Russ Belant and Chip Berlet .


Thanks for a great post, too, Bob DU Drummer Friend! Working together to spread the word on the Little Turd from Crawford and Vast Reich Wing Conspiracy he fronts for is how we can speed the day.

For those who don't know Russ Belant and Chip Berlet, they are investigative reporters associated with Political Research Associates of Cambridge, Massachusetts.

A review from an unknown author:

Old Nazis & The New Right

by Russ Bellant

If you can bear to think back to the 1988 presidential election, you'll recall that at one point Bush had to dismiss several Nazis from the top of his campaign committee. This article discusses the role that fascists and Nazi collaborators have played in the new right's subversion of traditional Republican values. Bellant focuses on the Republican Heritage Groups Council, a Nazi nest which Bush and Reagan have courted in their pursuit of power. It was Bellant's research which forced the dismissal of some of Bush's Nazi friends from the campaign committee, but as Bellant points out, While Bush campaign spokespersons pledged there would be an investigation into the background and views of the CAN members whose resignations it had announced, no serious investigation ever took place and the campaign repeatedly referred to the charges as unsubstantiated politically-motivated smears. Several of the persons who had been reported as resigning told journalists they had never been asked to resign and considered themselves still active with the Bush campaign.

Here's an excerpt from their work:

What distinguishes Nazism from generic fascism is its obsession with racial theories of superiority, and some would say, its roots in the socialist theory of proletarian revolution.

Fascism and Nazism as ideologies involve, to varying degrees, some of the following hallmarks:

*** Nationalism and super-patriotism with a sense of historic mission.

*** Aggressive militarism even to the extent of glorifying war as good for the national or individual spirit.

*** Use of violence or threats of violence to impose views on others (fascism and Nazism both employed street violence and state violence at different moments in their development).

*** Authoritarian reliance on a leader or elite not constitutionally responsible to an electorate.

*** Cult of personality around a charismatic leader.

*** Reaction against the values of Modernism, usually with emotional attacks against both liberalism and communism.

*** Exhortations for the homogeneous masses of common folk (Volkish in German, Populist in the U.S.) to join voluntarily in a heroic mission_often metaphysical and romanticized in character.

*** Dehumanization and scapegoating of the enemy_seeing the enemy as an inferior or subhuman force, perhaps involved in a conspiracy that justifies eradicating them.

*** The self image of being a superior form of social organization beyond socialism, capitalism and democracy.

*** Elements of national socialist ideological roots, for example, ostensible support for the industrial working class or farmers; but ultimately, the forging of an alliance with an elite sector of society.

*** Abandonment of any consistent ideology in a drive for state power.

It is vitally important to understand that fascism and Nazism are not biologically or culturally determinant. Fascism does not attach to the gene structure of any specific group or nationality. Nazism was not the ultimate expression of the German people. Fascism did not end with World War II.

After Nazi Germany surrendered to the Allies, the geopolitical landscape of Europe was once again drastically altered. In a few short months, some of our former fascist enemies became our allies in the fight to stop the spread of communism. The record of this transformation has been laid out in a series of books. U.S. recruitment of the Nazi spy apparatus has been chronicled in books ranging from by Hohne & Zolling, to the recent by Simpson. The laundering of Nazi scientists into our space program is chronicled in by Bowers. The global activities of, and ongoing fascist role within, the World Anti-Communist League were described in by Anderson and Anderson. Bellant's bibliography cites many other examples of detailed and accurate reporting of these disturbing realities.

SOURCE:

—Russ Bellant (Chip Berlet, Introduction) “Old NAZIs, the New Right and the Reagan Administration: The Role of Domestic Fascist Networks in the Repubican Party and Their Effect on U.S. Cold War Politics.” 1988. Political Research Associates, Cambridge, Mass.

PS: We can't forget Mae Brussell and her work in this area. THe late Ms. Brussell documented the connection between the NAZIs and the events in Dallas of November 22, 1963.


=============================

[TankLV]

78. Truth hurts, doesn't it? GET OVER IT!

There are too many ways they are so much alike. But then you are blind, too, I see!

[Ms. Clio]

85. "who cares what you think?"

To "re-paraphrase" the "this would be a lot easier if I were the dictator" squatter in the People's House.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nuxvomica]

91. Why do you wish to learn nothing from history?

The point of history is to learn from the mistakes of the past but how can we do so if one of the worst periods of history is somehow excluded from comparisons. There are a lot of reasonable parallels between Bush and Hitler that are worth discussing: pushing a republic into dictatorship in response to a terrorist attack, corporate control of national policy, "preemptive" invasions of other countries under the pretense that it's for your own protection, asserting that one's nationalist ideals are superior to those of other countries all the while engaging in atrocities, etc. The differences are in degree but the similarities should be a warning sign to all. The patterns of Hitler's behavior are not unique in history and we should be wary of their return to the world stage no matter how subtle or nuanced the connection.

[TankLV]

92. What all you bush* apologists don't seem to get.

The fact that

WE CAN & DO HAVE THE ABILITY TO NAME JUST A FEW INSTANCES, LET ALONE THE MANY, WAYS THAT BUSH & ALL REPUBLICANS ARE EXACTLY LIKE NAZI'S

is the main point here!

That we can do this AT ALL is why we who do the comparisons are just and "right" and need to yell this from the rooftops till their evil, yes EVIL, ideology is dead for once and for all!

You people who are upset about us have your priorities very sadly completely mixed up.

The fact that there are ANY factual comparisons between 1930's NAZI Germany and bush*s Amerikkka should leave us all sleepless and sick with worry, and FULL OF JUSTIFIABLE ANGER AND RAGE!

[Q]

94. You took the words right out of my keyboard...

...and the facts are undeniable. Every American should be concerned that our government can be so easily bent and perverted to the goals of a few individuals that would use our great nation to oppress its own people and bully the world into submission.

- Forget Hitler. What we have in America is Fascism. It's to your own peril if you can't comprehend it.

[leyton]

147. Huh?

"A FEW INSTANCES, LET ALONE THE MANY, WAYS THAT BUSH & ALL REPUBLICANS ARE EXACTLY LIKE NAZI'S"

Well, are there a few instances, or are they exactly like Nazis? I'm confused.

[TankLV]

212. You certainly are.

nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

95. Why worry about the freepers?

Who gives a shit what those fascists (allegedly) think?

As for comparisons of Bush/Reagan with Hitler, all 3 led nationalist movements. All 3 are/were racists. All 3 were/are responsible for the deaths of many good people. That Hitler was more efficient in killing people is irrelevent to those killed.

Sort of like saying that Charlie Manson shouldn't be compared to Jeffrey Dahmer because he didn't kill as many.

[Sparkly]

96. I just started another thread about "Judgment at Nuremburg"

See it -- whether for the first time, or just with the perspective of the current situation we're in. The similarities are undeniable.

[genius]

97. Bush was worse than Hilter. Reagan didn't run his Presidency

I used to thing Reagan was a really bad guy until I read "Landslide: the Unmaking of the Presidency, 1980-1988," written by two Republican Reporters. The book makes Reagan look like his mind was close to completely gone during his presidency. Everyone in the White House knew it and nick-named him the absent President. After reading the book, I could understand how he might not know about Iran-Contra or anthing else that was happening anywhere.

[greatauntoftriplets]

98. I'll thank you not to lecture me.

n/t

[Cheswick2.0]

107. bush is as bad as Hitler

You didn't say it, so how does it make you look bad if someone else does?
Wanta kick my ass.......bring it on. :kick:

[leyton]

145. Where are the concentration camps?

Where is the Gestapo? Where are the Swastikas? Where are the Heil Bushes? Where is the World War?

I don't see it. Yeah, there's an illegitimate war, but removing a genocidal regime is a far different thing than just annexing Poland, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Belgium, etc. Yeah, there's the Patriot Act, but amassing records is far different from having spies everywhere. Yeah, there's a war on terrorism, but going after terrorist organizations is far different from just conquering at will. Perhaps you choose not to see the difference.

You do a disservice to all those persecuted under Hitler by comparing Bush's antics with the horrors of the 1930's and 1940's.

[Eloriel]

170. Perhaps looking for the exact in replica here in the U.S. is

blinding you to the truth. What we currently have might be called a "kinder, gentler fascism." But it's fascism nonetheless, and what Bush has done has mirrored Hitler's moves with more precision than some of the naysayers here are willing to see.

Does it REALLY have to be a full "annexation" or can the plunder of Iraq for its oil and to gain a globe-dominating "foothold" in that region "close enough for government work" with Syria and Iran and others next on the list? Does it REALLY have to be a dictatorship or does the ability to fix elections on a grand scale, so we retain the illusion of democracy (and don't raise too many suspicions let alone hackles) enough? And so on.

This IS, after all, the 21st Century. Wouldn't it be clever for them to have figured out a way to have their cake and eat it too?

Who was it who said (paraphrased) American fascism wouldn't come in with jack-booted thugs but far more subtly and agreeably (to Americans) than that?

You guys who are looking for EXACT parallels are missing it, big time.

[ima_sinnic]

173. you obviously have read nothing else in this entire thread

... and it's probably certain you won't.
try to educate yourself, those who have posted before me in just this thread have said it all.
what is happening now is only the beginning. you think the German people had an inkling of the evil taking hold, innocuously insinuating itself in their lives?

[BonjourUSA]

111. I don't think Bush could have written "Mein Kampf"

[Forkboy]

114. He doesn't have to write it,just believe it

[Octafish]

136. That's what Karl Rove says, Noah my son.

You shouldn't listen to the pugs. Here's what real journalists say on the topic:

http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/nazi.html

Good luck.

BTW: I'll say whatever the fuck I want to say. You can say whatever the fuck you want to say. And you know what? I don't mind even if you say the same things as Rove and the rest of the NAZIs.

[seemslikeadream]

187. This is what I want to say today!

Robin Loman (from BartCop


In the winter of 1971 George W. Bush was dating a woman named Robin Lowman
(now Robin Garner). Miss Lowman became pregnant by Bush and he arranged for
her to have an abortion - which in the great state of Texas in 1971 was very illegal!
Not to mention that George W. is running as a pro-life candidate for the presidency.

The unnamed source of this story, was a friend of Robin Lowman's and the girlfriend
of the man who arranged the abortion. His name is Robert Carl Chandler. Chandler is
a Bush friend and supporter from way back and he made the arrangements for Miss
Lowman's abortion at the Twelve Oaks Hospital in Houston, TX (now the Bayou City
Medical Center). The source overheard the call by Mr. Chandler to arrange the abortion
and the source visited Robin Lowman at the Twelve Oaks Hospital after the procedure.

The source meanwhile, is afraid of coming forward, saying that she was threatened by
Chandler and another Bush friend and supporter named Jim Bath. Bath has longstanding
intelligence connections, and played a role in the BCCI scandal. Robin Lowman
(now Garner) is married to Jerry Lee Garner who is an FBI agent.

So, that's the story: an illegal back room abortion arranged by the
Republican party Presidential candidate who is running on a pro-life ticket.

[Octafish]

191. Jim Bath threatened more than one source.

There's a good DUer who met the man while on official business. The man indicated he might have to put a certain pilot we all know and care for in the Pecos River or somesuch stream for having refused a favor.



Please ask DemoTex for details, seemslikeadream. Like a doofus, I failed to bookmark, I just discovered. Rats.

[Octafish]

198. Found time to take a BATH.

Here 'tis:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1106153#1107832

Small world.



And very, very bad.

[seemslikeadream]

222. Well let's just put that here Octafish

I've missed you and actually just wanted to say hi.

plus I have this

Robin Loman (from BartCop

In the winter of 1971 George W. Bush was dating a woman named Robin Lowman
(now Robin Garner). Miss Lowman became pregnant by Bush and he arranged for
her to have an abortion - which in the great state of Texas in 1971 was very illegal!
Not to mention that George W. is running as a pro-life candidate for the presidency.

The unnamed source of this story, was a friend of Robin Lowman's and the girlfriend
of the man who arranged the abortion. His name is Robert Carl Chandler. Chandler is
a Bush friend and supporter from way back and he made the arrangements for Miss
Lowman's abortion at the Twelve Oaks Hospital in Houston, TX (now the Bayou City
Medical Center). The source overheard the call by Mr. Chandler to arrange the abortion
and the source visited Robin Lowman at the Twelve Oaks Hospital after the procedure.

The source meanwhile, is afraid of coming forward, saying that she was threatened by
Chandler and another Bush friend and supporter named Jim Bath. Bath has longstanding
intelligence connections, and played a role in the BCCI scandal. Robin Lowman
(now Garner) is married to Jerry Lee Garner who is an FBI agent.

So, that's the story: an illegal back room abortion arranged by the
Republican party Presidential candidate who is running on a pro-life ticket.
http://www.bartcop.com/bushabortion.htm




DemoTex (1000+ posts) Tue Feb-10-04 11:20 PM
Response to Original message

40. On pain of being "Baxtered," I'll tell a Jim Bath story ...

Edited on Tue Feb-10-04 11:32 PM by DemoTex
Actually, I told it right after Cliff Baxter was "Baxtered" without any ill effect. However, if I should die before I wake, I pray to thee my story to splash all over the front page. This is a very short story of very long connections. This is an abstract of a chapter in my work-in-progress.

Characters, Scene I:

Prince Kamyar Pahlavi (nephew of the Shah of Iran)
Doug and Morris Jaffee (names usually associated with the Texas Mafia)
A co-hort of Bath's
DemoTex

Characters,Scene II:
DemoTex and Jim Bath


Scene I:

DemoTex shows up at mansion on the south-side of downtown Houston to do article for an aviation trade magazine on Boeing 707 "hush-kits". DemoTex ushered into the plush office of Kamyar Pahlavi (DemoTex doesn't yet "get it"). Pahlavi has pictures of himself in AF garb in cockpit of Iranian F-4C Phantom jet. Also pics with a familiar looking guy. DemoTex wakes up and realizes he has been had. Shah of Iran! Mother-of-my-dog! Shah's nephew trys to snow DemoTex. No go.

Next stop, same day: San Antonio. They offered to fly me there on their Gulfstream. I took Southwest. Lunch meeting (at Luby's) with principals of company, including Doug and Morris Jaffe (Google "Texas Mafia Jaffe). Kamyar Pahlavi showed up with Jim Bath's cohort. The talk finally got social. Spook Stream. J. Henry Stream, married to country singer Lynn Anderson. Scion of Esso NJ. They knew him. I knew him (old friend's roomy at the KA house at UVA). I knew Lynn Anderson, too. The mayor pops in (Henry Cisneros) and says hi-what-can-I-possibly-do-for-you-great-gents?! Sycophant. Toady. Licked the re-puke mafioso's butt, I witnessed it.

(short dialog follows)

Morris Jaffee: Do you realize why you have to give a good review, in your magazine, of our Boeing 707 hush-kit?

DemoTex: I might. After the noise tests and my questions, we will develop an objective and qualitative assessment of your product for my article.

Morris Jaffe: Do you know the meaning of a walk in the Brazos River in concrete cowboy boots?

(Verbatim words of Morris Jaffe)

Scene II:

(A party at Houston Intercontinental Airport few weeks later)

DemoTex: Bartender, let me have another one of those Heineken's. Hello? Hi!

Jim Bath: Hi Mac! I read your by-line all the time! You are great. I've got a great deal for you... I'm Jim Bath. Have you submitted that article on the 707 hush-kit? (I didn't know him from Adam's house cat, except for his ubiquitous pictures in Trade-A-Plane! But he knew my name! Still scares me).

That's all I'll tell, but it's almost like a transcript of all of the events. I knew other names, and Bu$h was one. They were the top doggies.

Remember - and for the newbies - I was flying a JetStar II and Learjet 55s for Ken Lay during the early 80s. I met and know almost all of the current right wing players. Including "W". And remember, it ain't a story; it is a true story!

[seemslikeadream]

228. Have you seen this book by Gordon Thomas?

The CIA and Its Secret Experiments

with MKULTRA & Germ Warfare.

America’s Great State Secret

by

Gordon Thomas

(Author of Seeds of Fire: China And The Story Behind The Attack On America)

MINDFIELD

· Sensational never-seen-before documents from inside the White House, CIA and other agencies.

· Reveals the documentary evidence that links US Vice-President Dick Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld to the cover-up of the death of top CIA scientist, Frank Olson.



· Explains how the CIA financed a ruthless and systematic assault of the human psyche – using a British-born psychiatrist to spearhead the assault.

· Names other world renowned physicians who were involved in the most sinister research programme ever created by any United States government – and its secret partner – the British government.

· Reveals how a woman was programmed to become a CIA assassin.

· Describes how a CIA chemist was murdered by his own colleagues after he had turned to the one man he thought he could trust – a London psychiatrist engaged in similar work.

· Reveals how “expendables” – the CIA generic name for those selected for killing – were secretly murdered after they had been experimented on in Europe.

· Describes how the CIA used prostitutes and mental patients in other experiments.

· Explains how the CIA deliberately pioneered the drug culture whose effects are still with us.

· Reveals how the CIA agent selected to monitor the experiments eventually died at the hands of a physician steeped in the methods perfected by the CIA.

· Identifies how the CIA experiments are still carried on in secret establishments in Israel and China.

· Uncovers CIA terminal experiments on Vietcong prisoners in Vietnam.

· Publishes the CIA Manual of Assassination – a shocking document describing how to commit state-approved murder.



“Meticulously researched, Mindfield is a deeply disturbing story of hideous government experiments using drugs and behavioural modification. Teaching hospitals on both sides of the Atlantic were used. Many of the doctors who performed those experiments remain in high office today and still conduct those experiments with impunity. Mindfield is a terrifying warning how easy it is for elected governments to sanction secret experiments to control human behaviour. Gordon Thomas has meticulously taken us from incredulity to awareness of the Machiavellian lengths our governments go to in our unsuspecting name. This remarkable book is essential reading for all those in a trusted role to care for people. In every sense it is an outstanding text that reveals the darker side of medicine.”

Professor Anne White
M.C.S.P. Bsc M.D. F.R.C.P.A.
Assistant Clinical Professor of Medicine
Department of Psychiatry
McMaster University, Canada

http://www.gordonthomas.ie/mindfield.htm

[Octafish]

229. Thanks for the heads-up on the BFEE super-turd combo.

Cheney and Rummy and MK/ULTRA. What a surprise. Thanks for the link to a must-have, seemslikeadream! You are TOPS!

[leyton]

142. I agree.

I'm equally sick of all the dramatics and hyperbole on this board. Sadly, as I have found, most calls for restraint result in replies like "you're naive" or "you're censoring us" or worse.

[Deja Q]

154. Well there is a difference, isn't there?

Hitler unified Germany and got it to do an offensive against the free world.

Reagan/Bush have only separated America ideologically and financially, with their long term goal of destroying the middle class and putting them, along with the poor, in a position that envies those slaughtered by Hitler. For they are dead. Add in peak oil and everything else, and it's damningly clear what the neocons have been up to for 24 years: Social engineering that saves themselves and kills us. Which is sad, they're the worst aspect of humanity that will survive. What's remarkable that half our society still supports those vermin.

What's worse, being dead or living in sub-poverty with no chance out?

[bvar22]

161. This is not in "noahmijo's" name:

This floated through my in-box yesterday. I would argue with a couple, and elaborate on others. The ALL CAPS is a consequence of cut-n-paste, and not my transcription. This list was anonymous.

1. IN 1933 THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT RECEIVED WARNINGS OF AN IMMINENT ATTACK

2. THE WARNINGS WERE IGNORED

3. THE NATION'S LEADER WAS ILLEGITIMATE, ELECTED BY A MINORITY

4. HE WAS A SIMPLETON WHO SAW THINGS IN BLACK AND WHITE ONLY

5. HIS LANGUAGE WAS COARSE AND OFFENSIVE

6. AS A YOUNG MAN, HE JOINED A SECRET SOCIETY WHOSE RITUALS INCLUDED SKULL AND BONES

7. HE KNEW WHO THE TERRORIST WAS WHO WAS GOING TO STRIKE

8. HE STOOD ON THE RUBBLE OF THE BUILDING ATTACKED

9. HE DECLARED ALL-OUT WAR AGAINST EVIL

10. A DETENTION CENTER FOR TERRORISTS WAS SOON BUILT

11. LEGISLATION WAS ENACTED BANNING FREE SPEECH, PRIVACY AND HABEAS CORPUS

12. SUSPECTED TERRORISTS COULD BE IMPRISONED WITHOUT ACCESS TO LAWYERS

13. A PATRIOTIC "DECREE" WAS PASSED WITH A 4 YEAR SUNSET PROVISION

14. LEGISLATORS DID NOT HAVE TIME TO READ IT

15. SUSPICIOUS PERSONS WERE ARRESTED WITHOUT ACCESS TO LAWYERS OR THE COURTS

16. THOSE OBJECTING WERE IGNORED BY A MAINSTREAM PRESS

17. PROTESTING CITIZENS WERE FENCED OFF IN ZONES

18. THE COUNTRY WAS REFERRED TO AS THE "HOMELAND"

19. IT WAS OUR HOMELAND VS. ALL OTHERS

20. THE LEADER DECLARED THAT AN INTERNATIONAL BODY WHICH DID NOT ACT FIRST IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE NATION WAS IRRELEVANT

21. HE WITHDREW FROM THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS

22. HE CLAIMED HIS MOTIVATIONS WERE ROOTED IN CHRISTIANITY

23. HE FELT THAT THE VARIOUS AGENCIES WERE NOT COORDINATED TO DEAL WITH THE TERRORIST THREAT.

24. HE PROPOSED A SINGLE AGENCY TO PROTECT THE HOMELAND

25. HE APPOINTED ONE OF HIS TRUSTED ASSOCIATES TO LEAD THIS NEW AGENCY

26. THE RADIO AND PRESS WERE AT HIS DISPOSAL

27. PEOPLE WERE ENCOURAGED TO PHONE IN TIPS ABOUT SUSPICIOUS NEIGHBORS.

28. OPPOSITION LEADERS AND CELEBRITIES WHO SPOKE OUT WERE DENOUNCED

29. THE LEADER CONSOLIDATED HIS POWER AND BROUGHT CORPORATE LEADERS INTO HIGH GOVERNMENT POSITIONS

30. A FLOOD OF GOVERNEMT MONEY POURED INTO CORPORATE COFFERS

31. THE LEADER ENCOURAGED LARGE CORPORATIONS TO ACQUIRE MEDIA OUTLETS AND OTHER INDUSTRIAL CONCERNS ACROSS THE NATION, PARTICULARLY THOSE OWNED BY SUSPICIOUS PEOPLE OF MIDDLE EASTERN ANCESTRY

32. HE BUILT POWERFUL ALLIANCES WITH INDUSTRY

33. DISSENT AROSE WITHIN AND OUTSIDE THE GOVT. LEADERS OF OTHER NATIONS SPOKE OUT AGAINST HIS BELLICOSE RHETORIC

34. THE LEADER NEEDED A DIVERSION TO DIRECT PEOPLE AWAY FROM CORPORATE CRONYISM

35. HE BEGAN A CAMPAIGN TO MANIPULATE THE MEDIA TO HYPE A LIMITED WAR

36. A NATION WHICH HARBORED SUSPICIOUS PEOPLE AND HAD A TENUOUS RELATIONSHIP WITH THE TERRORIST WHO HAD SET AFIRE THE NATIONS MOST IMPORTANT BUILDING, HAD THE RESOURCES HE NEEDED

37. THE LEADER PUBLICLY DELIVERED AN ULTIMATUM

38. HE CLAIMED THE RIGHT TO PRE-EMPTIVE STRIKE IN SELF-DEFENSE

39. AFTER MILITARY ACTION BEGAN, THE BRITISH PM DECLARED THAT IT WOULD BRING PEACE IN OUR TIME.

40. THE LEADER DECLARED THAT THOSE HE CONQUERED LOVED HIM

41. THE PRESS BEGAN TO EQUATE HIS POLICIES WITH PATRIOTISM AND THE NATION ITSELF

42. THE MEDIA SAID NATIONAL UNITY WAS ESSENTIAL

43. THOSE QUESTIONING THE LEADER WERE CALLED TRAITORS

44. DISSENT WAS STIFLED AS INTELLECTUALS AND LIBERALS WERE THRASHED

45. VOICES OF OPPOSITION WERE RAISED AFTER THE LIMITED WAR

46. THE DAILY PROPAGANDA DID NOT TOTALLY SUPPRESS DISSENT

47. A FULL WAR WAS NECESSARY TO DIVERT ATTENTION FROM GROWING OPPOSITION

48. ONE YEAR LATER, WORLD WAR II BEGAN

49. THE BLITZKRIEG OR LIGHTNING WAR "SHOCKED AND AWED" EUROPE

50. FASCISM IS DEFINED AS A "SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT THAT EXERCISES A DICTATORSHIP OF THE EXTREME RIGHT TYPICALLY THROUGH THE MERGING OF STATE AND BUSINESS LEADERSHIP, TOGETHER WITH BELLIGERENT NATIONALISM"

Sound familiar?

[Eloriel]

171. Another list

in a relatively short article well worth reading: http://www.deceptiondollar.com/news/BloorRemarks911-03.htm


20 of more than 100 parallels between the USA today and Hitler’s Germany:

1 -- Anti-communism, anti-Marxism, anti-socialism is visceral.

2 - The obverse: Market fundamentalism, a quasi-religious faith in capitalism.

3 -- Corporations are at the centre of the power structure.

4 -- Corruption at the top is endemic.

5 -- The number of people consigned to the grave by military and paramilitary actions in both cases is in the millions. Backdate the Fourth Reich to the end of the Second World War and the number murdered by U.S. forces equals or outnumbers the toll in the Holocaust. Three million in Vietnam alone.

6 -The brutalityof the regime is a matter of record for those who are willing to examine it.

7 -- Most of the America’s victims are Asians, indigenous peoples of Latin America, and more recently “towel heads.” The racism is clear.

8 -- In both Reichs the leader was illegally installed into power.

9 --World domination is the ambition.

10 -- Seizure of other countries’ oil. Grabbing Russia’s Baku oil fields was a major objective of Hitler.

11 -- Pre-emptive or “preventive” war is policy and practice.

12 -- Highly-orchestrated propaganda campaigns are a staple.

13 -- The use of religion. “God bless America” is a U.S. presidential benediction at the end of every lying speech. In William L. Shirer’s classic, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, he quotes the führer’s minister of church affairs as declaring the Nazi party “stands on the basis of Positive Christianity, and Positive Christianity is National Socialism … National Socialism is doing God’s will…”

14 -- An ever-encroaching police state is a sure sign you’re living in a Reich.

15 -- International and domestic laws are breached, resisted and undermined, along with rejection or subversion of multilateral agreements and organizations. Hitler pulled Germany out of the League of Nations altogether. In America’s case the United Nations is sidelined or embraced according to the Empire’s needs.

16-- Manipulation of fear of “terrorism” - real and imagined -- is central.

17 - Hypocritically to the nth degree, at the same time, actual terrorism is carried out by fascist states. Some is wholesale, such as Stuka dive bombers over Spain and V2 rockets into London. Or today’s bunker busters, daisy cutters, helicopter gunships and depleted uranium munitions. Some is retail, recruiting, training and funding contras and mujahideen.

18 -- The “pitiful giant” syndrome is invoked. “Our enemies are powerful,” it goes, so we must arm endlessly “in self-defense.” Often accompanied with the high-sounding: “Our enemies taunt us, and we are patient, but our patience is not endless.”

19 -- A preoccupation with secrecy. Secrecy is a precondition for deception.

20 -- Deception, above all, is the key to everything for a Reich. The leaders are marinated in a complete obsession with lying and deceiving at every turn. Deceptions are the regime’s key to mobilizing public opinion. Deception is needed to fool the citizenry into relinquishing their civil rights and thereby many avenues of dissent. Deception precedes and leads to the police state. Deception precedes and leads to war. At every step deception is required for a Reich’s gaining and maintaining power, and carrying out all its other nefarious actions.

[ima_sinnic]

174. so you think Hitler should be elevated to the level of an evil god

that nobody else can attain?
what's so fucking special about Hitler, that nobody can compare to him, anyway? he is just one of a long dreary line of barbarous despots that stretches back to the beginning of time and will end only when humans cease to exist.
Wherever there are human beings there will be people with no conscience and insane greed for power; unfortunately far too many of them, down through history, have gained the blind trust and loyalty of ordinary people who can't conceive of their evil visions, could not for a moment believe or comprehend the hideousness of it.
So get over yourself, junior, and recognize the many faces of evil.

[left is right]

182. I find myself wondering

about the few far-sighted people back in the early '30's. You just know that they saw Hitler's rise to power and knew in their souls that evil was coming. For awhile, they were able to debate and discuss it befor the Nazi's shut them down. What I wonder about is who did they find to compare Hitler with to make their point that Hitler needed to be stopped? Did the rest of society say, "How can you say Hitler is as bad as ____?"

[rman]

176. Yet the similarities are striking; both are Despots -

Both reigns are characterized by
- concentration of political power
- concentration of media power
- concentration of economic power

All in the same body.

[Rationality]

177. You're in the distinct minority here

Seems like alot of people here are trying to say that Raygun and Dubya are every bit as bad as Adlof himself and you're a moron for suggesting otherwise...

I'm not one of them, and I'm glad someone has their head on over here. I'm getting worried about the rhetoric going around here lately myself.

[RapidCreek]

178. They're worse.....Hitler at least was honest.

He didn't try to hide his evilness behind an Awe Shucks, good ole boy facade.

Evil is evil....there is no porportionality of badness which may be affixed to it perpetrators....it's effects may be measured but the rational behind it is always the same.

Some who engage in evil do it all at once...in your face....and some do it bit by bit, little by little, covering their tracks as they go.
Both are evil....their methodology is the only difference.

RC

[Zynx]

179. How about as bad as Franco?

[DaveSZ]

184. My grandfather fought against Hitler and Japan in WWII

He says Bush reminds him of Hitler when he invaded Poland.

I figure his opinion must count for something.

[BiggJawn]

185. so noted. and ignored.

The biggest diference between Bush and Hitler is that Bush hasn't killed 6,000,000....

YET!

[Snivi Yllom]

186. Those who make Hitler comparisons should look up Godwin's Law

[Ms. Clio]

205. Those who refer to "Godwin's Law" should know what it means

"As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful."

http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/g/Godwin_s_Law.html

Godwin's Law applies to Usenet flame wars originally about topics OTHER than Hitler, not a thread specifically started about Hitler.

[dryan]

189. My 2 cents

Although I can't stand George Bush (and I had a hard time stomaching Reagan), I get very upset whenever someone says that ***** (fill in) is worse than Hitler. Twenty million people died because of Hitler -- including several of my relatives -- so I take such comparisons seriously.

[Eloriel]

195. This is the kind of thinking that, IMO, only helps George Bush

and especially helps keep him in power, doing what he's doing and going further.

The ONE thing we have going for us is Germany's history. Unfortunately, Germany's history doesn't provide a way out, but it sure has provided the road map (and Bush's plan?) for what we're going through right now.

For those who persist in seeing ONLY -- and exclusively -- the "end result" (or "final solution," if you prefer), and getting "upset" when people see all the similarities and the exact same things happening here in the U.S. that in Germany in the 1930s LED UP TO THE FINAL SOLUTION AND HITLER'S ABILITY TO GET AWAY WITH AS MUCH AS HE DID, you are enabling him and his neo-con fascist friends. It may be out of the best possible instincts -- no one here wishes in any way to diminish or detract from the Holocaust -- but believe me, your myopia is NOT helpful.

THERE WAS A PATH HITLER TOOK that got him and the world to the Holocaust. We are ON that path NOW, in the U.S., under Bush. Allow yourselves to see the trajectory that happened before the final horror of the Holocaust and note the frightening similarities happening all around us under Bush. Your attention and involvement are needed NOW, not once Bush's version of the Holocuast is upon us.

[CWebster]

190. Does Bush equal Hitler?

He is a well spoken, handsome lawyer, just a year older than I am. He worked as a diplomat who coordinated NGOs and foreign governments in order to bring aid to his country during the sanctions.

He was detained and accused of being a spy for Saddam Hussein, even though he is not even a Baathist.

He was hung from his ankles for hours in Abu Ghraib, until he passed out.

I ask him what else happened to him in there. He pulls up the legs of his trousers to show me two electrical burns on the inside of his knees, and points to two more on his elbows.

We all know the usual parts of this story: his head was bagged and hands and ankles tied too tightly, roughly thrown in an armored vehicle and driven to Baghdad Airport prison. Then to Abu Ghraib for 2 months, then to a prison in Basra, then back to Abu Ghraib for seven months.

At the Airport prison (which Iraqis refer to as Guantanamo Airport) he was interrogated five times, then ten more times at Abu Ghraib. At each place he was beaten until he passed out, forced to beat other detainees, deprived of food and water (he lost 25 kilos while in detention), offered no medical care, received threats on his life, was threatened that his wife would brought in and raped in front of him, had rats and cockroaches as cellmates. He was kept in a cell 2 meters by 1.5 meters.

Or maybe you haven’t heard all of this already...

Maybe you didn’t hear that the lead CIA man who tortured him referred to himself as “Satan.” Or that while he was praying and reading his Koran female soldiers came in and flashed their breasts at him, then sexually humiliated and abused him...



http://blog.newstandardnews.net/iraqdispatches/archives/000518.html#more

To them, is he the same?

[enki23]

194. the "stop comparing people to hitler" threads are almost as useful

as the "comparing people to hitler" threads. people will do what they will. the comparison has its good points, and its bad points.

the bad:

it's overused. it doesn't mean much anymore, because people won't actually take the time to think about it.

the good:

hitler is the best example, at least in recent times, of the dangers of blindly following leadership, of scapegoating segments of the population, of blind nationalism, of mistaking patriotic pageantry with true patriotism, or humanitarianism. it's the best example of a nation of ordinary, white (it matters to republicans) people who did terrible things in the name of god and country. they looked like us, they talked like us. it's a chilling thought.

and it's an apt comparison. it should be the most powerful warning we could make. it's overused, however, precisely *because* of the enormity of the message.

it's sad we can't use it effectively.

[Octafish]

199. Hitler killed innocent people. Bush kills innocent people.

Apart from the tense, there's little real difference.

[Frangible]

203. Hitler ordered the deaths of over 13 million people

How many has Bush?

It's a ridiculous comparison. Republicans say "Clinton killed innocent people", does that make Clinton = Hitler too?

Yeah, Bush sucks, but he's no Hitler. Not even close.

[TankLV]

217. Again, you are comparing the beginning bush* to the final Hitler.

Give bush* time. He's only started.

And he's already far ahead of Hitler when Hitler wass in power for 3 1/2 years.

There is a difference. Hitler didn't invade anyone yet in 3 1/2 years.

[Octafish]

223. It gives Bush something to shoot for, huh?

You may not see it, but this is the beginning of the Fourth Reich. The same mind set prevails: They are the Chosen Ones, the Master Race. The rest of the planet -- from the "Little Brown Ones" to the dumb rednecks workin' for ENRON -- are untermenschen and cannon fodder.

Good luck when Bush's numbers start to pile up.

[seemslikeadream]

224. For I'm the one who left dark Ireland's shore

Say, who are you that mumbles in the dark?
And who are you that draws your veil across the stars?

I am the poor white, fooled and pushed apart,
I am the Negro bearing slavery's scars.
I am the red man driven from the land,
I am the immigrant clutching the hope I seek--
And finding only the same old stupid plan
Of dog eat dog, of mighty crush the weak.

I am the young man, full of strength and hope,
Tangled in that ancient endless chain
Of profit, power, gain, of grab the land!
Of grab the gold! Of grab the ways of satisfying need!
Of work the men! Of take the pay!
Of owning everything for one's own greed!

I am the farmer, bondsman to the soil.
I am the worker sold to the machine.
I am the Negro, servant to you all.
I am the people, humble, hungry, mean--
Hungry yet today despite the dream.
Beaten yet today--O, Pioneers!
I am the man who never got ahead,
The poorest worker bartered through the years.

Yet I'm the one who dreamt our basic dream
In the Old World while still a serf of kings,
Who dreamt a dream so strong, so brave, so true,
That even yet its mighty daring sings
In every brick and stone, in every furrow turned
That's made America the land it has become.
O, I'm the man who sailed those early seas
In search of what I meant to be my home--
For I'm the one who left dark Ireland's shore,
And Poland's plain, and England's grassy lea,
And torn from Black Africa's strand I came
To build a "homeland of the free."

The free?


Let America be America Again...by Langston Hughes

[Stuckinthebush]

204. We need an evil/good rubric

This way we can operationalize badness. One can go down the list and determine who the person they are targeting with their comments is in between. Such as "Well, Bush is worse than Nixon but not as bad as Pol Pot (I use this only as an example). This way, if we can develop a well designed rubric that has some semblance of content validity, our Freeper detractors won't have too much ammo.

I can imagine a conversation:

"Can you believe that those DUmmies placed Bush as a 7 on the DU Badness Rubric? What are they thinking? He is nowhere near a 7, more like a 10 or 11!"

You see, while they will still think ill of us, at least we will all be using the same rubric in our discussions of how bad people are. It really does no good to say someone is almost as bad as Hitler, because he is probably a 1 on the badness rubric, and a 1 is a hard group to mimic (Hitler, Pol Pot, Satan).

I'm willing to put some brain power into this project so we can all be on the same page in our badness ratings and we won't have to continually invoke the name of Hitler.

One thing about us liberals, we can use the power of psychometrics to better describe our world.

Anyone willing to help?
;)

[Comicstripper]

221. Damn Straight

Comparing ANYONE in American politics to Hitler is stupid, inaccurate, and, I would argue, anti-semitic.
Bush is an evil man and an awful president, but comparing him to Hitler is outright bullshit.
Bush, evil as he is, has never attempted GENOCIDE. Hitler's goal was to wipe an entire race (and several other groups as well) from the face of the earth. He didn't succeed, but he made a huge, bloody dent.

[CWebster]

226. What Howard Zinn has to say about it::

"Fifteen years ago, when I was teaching at Boston University, I was asked by a Jewish group to give a talk on the Holocaust. I spoke that evening, but not about the Holocaust of World War II, the genocide of six million Jews. It was the mid-eighties, and the U.S. government was supporting death squads in Central America, so I spoke of the deaths of hundreds of thousands of peasants in Guatemala and El Salvador, victims of American policy.
My point was that the memory of the Jewish Holocaust should not be circled by barbed wire, morally ghettoized, kept isolated from other atrocities in history. To remember what happened to the six million Jews, I said, served no important purpose unless it aroused indignation, anger, action against all atrocities, anywhere in the world.
A few days later, in the campus newspaper, there was a letter from a faculty member who had heard me speak. He was a Jewish refugee who had left Europe for Argentina and then the United States. He objected strenuously to my extending the moral issue from Jews in Europe during the war to people in other parts of the world in our time. The Holocaust was a sacred memory, a unique event, he said. And he was outraged that, invited to speak on the Jewish Holocaust, I had chosen to speak about other matters.
I was reminded of this experience when I recently read a book by Peter Novick, The Holocaust in American Life (Houghton Mifflin, 1999). Novick's starting point is the following question: Why, fifty years after the event, does the Holocaust play a more prominent role in this country-the Holocaust Museum in Washington, hundreds of Holocaust programs in schools-than it did in the first decades after World War II?
Surely at the core of the memory of the Holocaust is a horror that should not be forgotten. But around that core, whose integrity needs no enhancement, there has grown up an industry of memorialists who have labored to keep that memory alive for purposes of their own, Novick points out.
Some Jews have used the Holocaust as a way of preserving a unique identity, which they see threatened by intermarriage and assimilation.
Zionists have used the Holocaust, since the 1967 war, to justify further Israeli expansion into Palestinian land and to build support for a beleaguered Israel (more beleaguered-as David Ben-Gurion, Israel's first prime minister, predicted-once it occupied the West Bank and Gaza).
And non-Jewish politicians have used the Holocaust to curry favor with the numerically small but influential Jewish voters-note the solemn pronouncements of Presidents wearing yarmulkes to accentuate their anguished sympathy..."



http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/RespectingHolocaust.html

[wtmusic]

230. Just because Bush hasn't attempted genocide

doesn't mean there aren't parallels between the neocon and the Nazi agendas.

A comparison is warranted, on many levels. Calling it "bullshit" doesn't make it so.