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malachibk Donating Member (780 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-04 08:34 AM
Original message
Most shocking F911 moments?
For me (in no particular order):

1. "This is staged. It's all staged."

2. "I feel bad for your husband." (What the FUCK was the Taliban doing in Texas???!?!?!)

3. "...the only thing missing is a signature from a Senator." Shame on Kennedy, Kerry, Graham etc. Disgusting.

4. That gas pipeline.

5. The cigar and brandy with the Saudi Prince on the Truman balcony on 9/13/01. Are you fucking kidding me?

Feel free to add your "favorite" moments.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-04 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. As for #3....
Please. There was no way in hell they could've taken that thing further. If Al Gore wanted to fight further, AL GORE should've. He decided to move on. What other choice did those Senators have? None of those House members, knowing the consequences, would've filed an objection had they been Senators instead. This was one of two bullshit, shock-value-only moves Moore made that I was upset with. The other was the part about Congressmen not reading legislation. Of course they don't. It's only in the movie to shock people who don't understand and don't know any better. It's a cheap tactic when the Right Wing uses it, and I don't approve of when the left uses it either.
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Upfront Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-04 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Well It Worked
It shocked me. Forgive me if I don't take your word for it as I will ask my Sen.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-04 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Go right ahead
You shouldn't take anyone's word for anything. Find out for yourself. Or, better, spend some time in Washington and find out what really goes on. That's what they pay staffers for though. They're not just window-dressing, you know.
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malachibk Donating Member (780 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-04 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Consequences?
Would the consequences have been more dire than the consequences of the past 4 years? Also, while Gore is the Pres. of the Senate, I don't think it was his sig. they needed. I don't think it was cheap I thought it was decidely disgusting.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-04 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Hindsight = 20/20
No one could've possibly predicted things would be this horrible. I knew Bush would be a lousy president, but this is outside the realm of reason.

And I didn't mean Al Gore should've signed the document. He shouldn't have conceded. He should've continued to fight. If he was willing, I guarantee you nearly every Dem. Senator would've signed the objection. Gore didn't want to, so they didn't.
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Snoggera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-04 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. If it had not been true, then I would agree with you
However, the truth of it is, it would have taken only one Senator. Maybe they were deferring to Gore, but they didn't have to. Also, it is amazing that Congresspeople don't even read the legislation that they vote on. It's insane.

The right wing uses half-truths and outright lies. I see neither aspect in these two points. There is a difference.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-04 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. It's not insane.
It's completely and totally impossible for them to read all of the legislation they vote on. In the House alone, there have been over 4700 bills introduced in this Congress. Some of them are over a thousand pages long. If you think it's even close to being possible, I would highly suggest taking some time and learning exactly what Congressmen do. Voting on legislation is only a fraction of their job.
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Nay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-04 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. WTF? "What other choice did those Senators have?" Well,
they could have ignored what Gore seemed to want and gone on to protect American democracy, for one. The Congressional Black Caucus managed to do just that. All they were asking for was ONE senator signature to make their request for an investigation official and actable. It is a mystery to me why NO SENATOR, not even the very liberal ones with (one hopes) nothing to fear, could bring himself/herself to sign it.

As an aside, does anyone have any clue as to why no senator would sign this, especially in light of the fact that the election was obviously skanky to a lot of knowledgeable people, like legal professors and the like?

Secondly, aware people DO know that Congresspeople do not read every word of every bill that they vote on. It would be physically impossible. However, their STAFFERS, often law students or lawyers, do read them for pitfalls, problems, tricky little riders, etc., and give the Congressperson a Reader's Digest version of every bill of consequence. The Patriot Act was a bill of consequence. Maybe Moore didn't make the point correctly -- but even the STAFFERS didn't have time to do their jobs, since the Patriot Act was essentially printed, distributed, and voted on in a 24-HOUR PERIOD.
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Gin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-04 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. what was the deal with # 5? I heard Mario Cuomo say they had dinner
at the WH 2 days after 9-11...so this fits...I havent seen the movie yet..explain that scene for me...please?
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Nay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-04 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. I don't know. I wasn't shocked by #5, because I know all those
ratbastards eat, smoke and drink the best while the rest of us go to the grocery warehouse.

I was shocked by the CBC getting no support from Dem senators, and challenged one of the above posters to explain why not one of these senators signed on with the CBC. It's still a mystery to me, unless they all got an 'anthrax memo' or something.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-04 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. "I know all those ratbastards eat, smoke, and drink...
...the best while the rest of us go to the grocery warehouse."

Yeah, and then we criticize dictators like Castro for doing the same goddamn thing. As if we spend our millions on our poor!
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-04 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Two reasons
The Senators deferred to both Gore, and most of America's wishes. Sadly, if you remember correctly, most Americans just wanted it over with because we have historically and massively short attention spans. Just like most of the votes that piss people off around here by Dem. leadership - they looked at the fact that we were now going to be in the minority and they decided that rather than piss off people by looking like sore losers risking pushing us even further into the minority, they did the thing that was unpopular amongst the base. It's a lose-lose situation, and whether or not they made the right decision is impossible to judge because of what's transpired the last 4 years. I don't think anyone could've predicted things would be THIS bad. I, personally, thought a Bush presidency would be horrible before he was even nominated, but even I didn't think he could possibly drive us to this depth. It's totally beyond reason, but he's accomplished it somehow. The Dem leadership made the decision they had to at the time it was made. Personally, I don't agree with that decision, but was an incredibly tough call to make either way and I don't blame them for making it. It really would've been political suicide if we had pressed on and lost anyway. Oh, as for your mystery, if a single Dem Senator signed it, it would've been exactly the same as if every single one of them did BECAUSE it would've only taken one. If this were a roll call vote, I guarantee you there would've been plenty of protest votes. That wasn't the case because we had no such luxury on this one.

As for the "reading bills" part of your comments... You hit the nail on the head here. The point Moore should've made was that they didn't allow ANYONE enough time to vote on this thing. What he also doesn't reconcile was this - he adds the part about the guy who was harassed by the FBI for something he said in a gym locker room, but he fails to acknowledge that this created an unbelievable political climate on Capitol Hill as well. I worked on the Hill during this time - we really couldn't do a goddamn thing. A few fringe Dem. Congressmen from safe Congressional districts stood up, but that's it. Fortunately, I worked for a guy that was one of them, and even despite his best efforts, it all fell on deaf ears. Dems never stood a chance against the Patriot Act, nor did they stand a chance against any of the reactionary, ill-fated 9/11 legislation. It absolutely sucks that no one read it, but the story should've been about how Republicans abused the fuck out of 9/11 to ram their greedy, invasive agenda down America's throat. He could've done plenty with that plot line, how they've wrapped the American flag around un-American things in order to get their way... but he chose to ride around in an ice cream truck reading the Patriot Act. Funny, but not very effective, as it's not proving the right point.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-04 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
7. #4 - What Moore left out - the pipeline was to save Enron's Dabhol plant.
This is one reason why Cheney won't let the Energy papers out. The other is that they were busy divvying up the Iraqi oil fields in May 2001.

But the Afghanistant pipeline was to have provided cheap natural gas to the Indian power plant that Enron built in Dabhol. The gas supply might have saved Enron from the disaster that ultimately befell it.

The Enron-Cheney-Taliban Connection?
By Ron Callari, Albion Monitor. Posted February 28, 2002.

Could the Big Secret of the Enron scandal be that Cheney and the White House were working closely with the Taliban -- on Enron's behalf -- up to a few weeks before Sept. 11?

http://www.alternet.org/story/12525

Enron had a $3 billion investment in the Dabhol power plant, near Bombay on India's west coast. The project began in 1992, and the liquefied natural gas- powered plant was supposed to supply energy- hungry India with about one-fifth of its energy needs by 1997. It was one of Enron's largest development projects ever (and the single largest direct foreign investment in India's history). The company owned 65 percent of Dabhol; the other partners were Bechtel, General Electric and State Electricity Board.

The fly in the ointment, however was that the Indian consumers could not afford the cost of the electricity that was to be produced. The World Bank had warned at the beginning that the energy produced by the plant would be too costly, and Enron proved them right. Power from the plant was 700 percent higher than electricity from other sources.

<snip>

The book "Bin Laden: the Forbidden Truth" by Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasique claims that the U.S. tried to negotiate the pipeline deal with the Taliban as late as August, 2001. According to the authors, the Bush Administration attempted to get the Taliban on board and believed they could depend upon the regime to stabilize the country while the pipeline construction was underway. Bush had already indirectly given the Taliban $43 million for their supposed efforts to stamp out opium-poppy cultivation. Was this an award -- or a bribe? The circumstances make this a valid question.

Enron was unraveling at the seams, yet in early August, Kenneth Lay seemed optimistic, even exuberant. Was he whistling past the graveyard, or did he have secret information? The last meeting between U.S. and Taliban representatives took place five weeks before the attacks on New York and Washington; on that occasion, Christina Rocca, in charge of Central Asian affairs for the U.S. government, met the Taliban ambassador to Pakistan in Islamabad on August 2, 2001. Rocca said the Taliban representative, Mr. Zaeef, was aware of the strong U.S. commitment to help the Afghan people and the fact that the United States had provided $132 million in relief assistance so far that year. <so much more at link>


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