When did soldiers start carrying their M-16s in that 'tilt-down' position?

[Aristus]

When I was in, (1986-1993), when we trained with our 16's (I was a tanker, and rarely held an M-16 once I got out of Basic) we were taught to hold the weapon with the barrel straight out, as long as it wasn't pointing at anybody, and with your finger along the trigger guard and not on the trigger itself.

Now, every trooper I see on the news or on the net carrys his weapon butt up and barrel down. They look like they are gonna blow off their own feet! What's up with that? Any Army or ex-Army people know? :shrug:

[skids]

1. Honore told them to do this.

He "didn't want this to look like Iraq."

[Aristus]

3. Huh?

I've seen troopers in Iraq doing the same thing.

[political_invader]

23. Right the day he arrived in New Oleans nt

[bmcatt]

2. "Put that weapon down, damnit"

Those either were Honore's words or a close paraphrase as shown in various video clips.

[CottonBear]

5. "Put those weapons DOWN NOW, Goddamnit!"

Quote from 3 Star General Russell Honore. He ordered the LA State Police and the Nat'l. Guard troops not to point at the citizens. When they all IMMEDIATELY pointed their weapons down about 15 Vietnamese-Americans stated clapping and cheering the General!

My other fave Honore quote: "We ain't stuck on stupid." :)

[Alamom]

4. I saw the news clip several times,

Honore ordered this and news cameras caught it.

[nine23]

6. RE: "Any Army or ex-Army people know?"

I'm neither. But your post begs the question: Did you ever patrol amongst your own fellow citizens in a totally devastated, destroyed American city, where crime and looting were not only overstated in the media, but is now rendered moot?

Why the fuck would a NG patrol carry his weapon otherwise? At this juncture?

[CottonBear]

9. Because the general citizenry wasn't/isn't violent.

There are some everyday thugs and drug adddicts out there. Most people "shooting at helicopter" are most likely trying to get their attention to be rescued.

[nine23]

15. I haven't heard and/or seen a looting/crime report for about 48hrs.

I was hoping, as per "John Wayne's" recent orders, it was more of a *stand-down* thing. Of course, I'm naive about these things...

[CatWoman]

7. I'm thinking to keep the water out of the barrel

that area is quite flooded, and carrying the weapon right side up would leave it vulnerable

[TomInTib]

8. Ready postion

if you are on full auto you fire "down to up"

Unfortunate, but that's the way it is.

[Winston702]

10. Some Observations

1. They are using a harness device so they don't have to carry the weight of the weapon at all times. If they let go of weapon it will just hang on their chest. Kinda like those baby backpacks.

2. Weapon is an MP5 not an M-16. MP5 known as a "Hush Puppie", I'll let you all figure that one out.

3. Based on his dress, appears to be non military law enforcement. This guy is rigged for CQB.

[nine23]

16. "baby backpacks". "Hush Puppie". Stray Dogs. Floating dead bodies.

The irony is killing me...

[leetrisck]

11. The General ordered it - You are on a Humanitarian Mission

here to help.

[Silverhair]

12. Fast draw.

Notice that the butt of the stock is next to the shoulder, right hand can rest on the pistol grip handle, and the left hand can be close to the foreguard. Sling loops around the upper body so the weight of the piece isn't on your arms. You can carry it that way for extended periods of time. Muzzle is pointed in a safe direction in the event of an accidental discharge. Yet, when you need to shoot with it, you can be on target and shooting very quickly.

[Karmakaze]

17. CORRECT ANSWER

That position is the "ready safe" position. It allows the fastest reaction time from "safe" to aimed and ready to fire. Shoulder fired weapons are carried like this by most trained forces.

It's basically ergonomics - when held like this, you dont even need to think to get the weapon up into the firing position, and the aim is disturbed the least by the motion.

The old way the OP describes, with the weapon down at waist level and horizontal often resulted in the butt of the weapon catching on clothing and harnesses, disturbing the aim and delaying the reaction, when the weapon was brought up into the firing position.

[cornermouse]

13. Honore bellowed at them.

[tabasco]

14. When you're on a patrol or something, sure, it's at the ready.

When there is no real threat it is safer to point it at the ground.

I was infantry from '81-'95 and still in the IRR, unfortunately.

[aikoaiko]

18. Standard Operating Procedure now nt.

[DS1]

19. It's a new type of sling

not the plain old sling that could have doubled as a belt

[applegrove]

20. Bush stood the army down on Monday. It took a few days for the

city to get out of control (completely predictable). After the troops arrived and the fear & gun shots calmed down - the cavalry could relax.

They had to get control of a situation Bush let happen first.

[radar]

21. I'm with you, Aristus

...I was serving between 1988 & 1992 - the only standard being "don't point it at anyone you're not trying to shoot." Point the barrel/muzzle anywhere else, over head, towards ground - even up your a$$ - it didn't matter.

Noticed the Hollywood movies changing towards the end of the century in how they had the actors hold weapons; quite a change from old John Wayne pics.

[Tyranny_R_US]

22. FFS! That is a Swat team member and the gun appears to be an H&K MP5....

not an M-16 :wtf: