Pedro did not threaten Posada

[RedSox02]

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/redSox.bg?articleid=200

Pedro apparently talked to some reporters yesterday. Of course the national and New York media won't point this out but it does not seem liek Pedro was telling anyone he was going to hit them in the head. While everyone assumed that Pero said he would drill them all in the head, he was upset at what Posada was saying to him and was shouting back. Here is a snip from the article.

The gesture to Jorge Posada, when Martinez pointed to his own head as if he were threatening to plant one in Posada's ear?

``I said, `I'll remember you. I'll remember everything you said to me,' '' Martinez said of the message he was relaying to the Yankees catcher as the two shouted at one another.

What did Posada say?

``I don't want to really express all the bad words he said. If you want to know what he said, go ask him,'' Martinez said.


Pedro also denies trying to hit Garcia in the head but does admit he wanted to get inside on him and missed badly.

[HEyHEY]

1. I can't believe how childish the media is being over this

If you seriously can't act in a proffesional manner over a baseball game how can you do so with hard news. Somthing to think about.

[SiobhanClancy]

3. The Boston Herald is a rag,in terms of hard news

but I like their sports reporting better than the Globe's.

[MrBenchley]

2. So that's why he pointed at his head....

Yeah, ri-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ight.....

[VermontDem2004]

4. What Pedro

was going to hit himself in the head? :shrug:

[MrBenchley]

6. Nope

He was announcing he was going to go on head-hunting, because he's the sort of cheap ass punk who gloats after knocking down a 72-year-old guy.

[VermontDem2004]

7. You were there?

Did you actually here what Pedro was saying?

[MrBenchley]

14. Loud and clear...

He was on one side of the field, Posada on the other, and 40,000 Beantown drunks were screaming in rage.....

[MaineDem]

17. Why insinuate everyone at the park was a drunk?

That's pretty insulting, don't you think?

[StopTheMorans]

18. let his words do the talking

they say volumes.

[MrBenchley]

29. Funny how they settled down

when beer sales were stopped....

[Kathy in Cambridge]

31. So now We're All Rowdy Drunks? So are Yankee fans, pal

I've been to Yankee stadium DOZENS of times-I almost married a Jersey boy-and you guys have your share of bad behavior too.

Please cease from broad generalizations. Earlier today, a poster said New Englanders were all morons, Republicans and losers for cheering for the Red Sox. Yankee fans of all people should know about tradition, and both our teams have a long history of high points and low points.

[TopesJunkie]

32. Actually,

the bad behavior in Yankee Stadium and Fenway is part of the entertainment for those of us who only get to town once or twice a year. Especially bad behavior done in those there accents.

;)

[Kathy in Cambridge]

33. LMAO-I think the accents are part of the CHAHM

Which accent is worse to your ears? The South BAWSTEN one or the LAWN GUYLAND?

My ex-boyfriend is from North Jersey and we used to rag on his accent all the time (though I'm one to tawk)...

:-)

[TopesJunkie]

34. Ah, they're both beautiful!

I ain't taking sides, as I'm a frequent guest in "both houses," so to speak.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

19. Um..they stopped serving beer in the 4th inning, and the crowd

was well-behaved-NO ARRESTS, which is highly unususal.

I was there-I'm at about half the home games during the year-and the crowd was loud but not violent.

[Braden]

43. I am glad I missed this lowbrow garbage post yesterday

40,000 drunks in a park that seats 35,000. So I guess all of the kids were wasted?

Zimmer Apologized for Embarrassing the Yankees, himself and Baseball. You could take a cue from him.

[Braden]

9. a 72 year old guy

who apologized for Embarrassing the New York Yankees. Did you miss that part?

I never saw pedro gloat, and Zimm apologized for his embarrassing behavior. It takes a big man to admit he's wrong and Zimm is a big man.

[HuckleB]

11. Zimmer's apology was good to see.

It doesn't exonerate Pedro, however.

[Braden]

12. from throwing Zimm aside it does

Pedro Was pitching in the game when Zimm came charging at him. I didnt watch the tape I was in the park.

I don't mean to imply that Zimm's apology exonerate's Pedro from the Garcia HBP.

It does however clearly and without any question excuse pedro for defending himself from Zimmers charge at him.

I am off to the park, so please dont think I am ducking anyone who cares to tend to this any longer.

I am looking forward to some baseball....

[MrBenchley]

16. What do you expect

Zim has class, Pedro has none...

[StopTheMorans]

20. yeah, old fat guys who charge pitchers when they should be

in the dugout sure do have class. Zimm got what he deserved, plain and simple.
on edit: fixed spelling

[Kathy in Cambridge]

21. Zim has had 'anger management' issues since he coached the Sox

1976-80. I remember as a child when he used to get tossed from games, and had many a row with Bill Lee, then Red Sox pitcher.

Shakespeare-a poster here-mentioned that Zimmer has been on steroids for years due to his many injuries, and that may be why he's so emotional.

[Shakespeare]

27. No, I said he MAY be on corticosteroids...

I have no idea if he is or not, but my guess is yes (for more reasons than just the aggressive behavior). I'll let y'all know if my sports editor friend gets an answer from the Yankees about this.

[MrBenchley]

30. Yeah, Pedro was sure in danger

from a 72-year-old guy...

"Zimm got what he deserved"
And so did Pedro...Zimm got sympathy and Pedro has nothing but richly deserved contempt from decent people.

[kmla]

35. Don Zimmer has class?

Jeezly crow - by that standard, Woody Hayes had class. He apologized after doing something incredibly stupid. Like taking a swing at a member of the opposing team.

Bobby Knight had class. He apoligized after throwing a chair onto the court.

An apology does not in itself demonstrate class. It just demonstrates an expression of guilt for a stupid act. Or in this case, a monumentally stupid act.

That ballgame showed a definite lack of class and maturity on both sides. No one should be proud of the way either team acted or reacted.

Just my $.02 worth.

(BTW, Go Cubbies!)

:evilgrin:

[Bake]

36. Now don't go dragging Bobby Knight into this!

One of the great coaches of all time, and NO I'm NOT an Indiana fan.

Bake
Univ. of Louisville, '89 and '94.

[kmla]

39. Believe it or not, I am a BK fan.

But as brilliant as he was, he sometimes did some really stupid things....

[HuckleB]

5. So Pedro says.

Unfortunately for Pedro, his history and the reports of others indicate otherwise.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2003/10/13/martinezs_reign_should_end/

[RedSox02]

8. That didn't debunk it

Dan Shaughnessy was not on the field. His "report" is not of what actually happened, but more of what he thought he saw.

The one I posted was Pedro's actual words.

Also I have to laugh when I hear Shaugnessy say "which pitcher would you rather have now Sox fans?" Oh please, a 41 year old Clemens whose brilliance in his prime was nowhere near what Pedro has done in his 6 seasons here? I don't think so Dan.

[HuckleB]

10. At this point,

it's far more credible than what Pedro has to say.

I'm sorry. But this is not Pedro's first run-in with nastiness.

If you want to buy what Pedro says as gospel truth, then that's your decision. I sure don't buy Nelson's version of the goings on in the bullpen, and I don't buy Pedro's version of what happened on the field. Heck, as has been noted by a number of reporters, his teammates haven't exactly defended him. There is a reason for that.

I'm done with this topic.

Enjoy.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

15. Dan Shaughnessy has always disliked Pedro, not that I condone his HBP

Dan and Pedro were in kind of a war a few years back, and he is one member of the media that Pedro doesn't talk to.

[Caution]

13. Dan Shaugnessy

is quite simply the worst "sports" reporter it has ever been my displeasure to have read. Without getting into a defense of martinez or what happened, Dan Shaugnessy has a track record of simply making things up. He lives to trash boston sports stars and to bring them down a notch. Around Boston he is known as Shank. The man is terrible and makes his living off of controversy and garbage (he is the one solely responsible for the so-called Curse of the Bambino when he wrote his book of the same name). He is the sports equivalent of Sean Hannity. A loud-mouther moron who can't argue his way out of a paper bag and simply invents "facts" to fit his side of the story. And his side of the story is always "nomar hates boston" "pedro is a prima-donna" "drew bledsoe is a terrible quarterback" "larry bird is overrated" "jim rice is a jerk" starting to see a pattern?

[TopesJunkie]

25. Shaugnessy is on the mark.

My Cambridge native wife made an interesting statement last night over dinner: "I want them to win it so badly, but does it have to be THIS group that does it. It's so frustrating."

Pedro and Manny are black marks for the Sox. I'm still rooting for them, but I don't understand why so many fans can't see the negatives these two carry around on their backs.

[Forkboy]

44. I'm a Sox fan

and I'd trade Pedro in a heartbeat.Give me Hudson anyday over Pedro.

And Manny was just a complete bozo the other night.Par for the course for him though.

[frylock]

22. "I'll remember you. I'll remember everything you said to me.."

in baseball parlance, for those of you who have never played the game, means "I'm going to put one in your ribs/ear/back the next time we meet up". Petey Martin is a punk-ass, and not for the Zimmer incident. Just another classic example of why the DH needs to be eliminated altogether. Zero accountabilty on the part of the pitchers. How many hit batters do you think ol' P. Mart would account for if he knew he had to face the likes of Randy Johnson?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

23. Same goes for Clemens-141 hit batters in his career

I wonder if he would have rethought his strategy if he had pitched in the NL. I personally think all pitchers should hit.


edited for spelling

[frylock]

24. i agree 100% with you on clemens..

there are exceptions to when it is acceptable to plunk someone, and having a bad outing isn't one of them. Mike Piazza owns Clemens, but rather than challenge Piazza, Clemens chose to drill him. Never been a Clemens fan, either.

[TopesJunkie]

26. Yes, in so many ways, Clemens and Pedro are two peas in a pod.

I prefer the NL for the most part, largely because there is no DH, but I do enjoy the fact that some players were able to continue to thrill fans with their bats (Paul Molitor and Edgar Martinez, for example) past the time when they would have remained everyday players on the field. So it's a mixed bag for me.

[frylock]

28. there is that, too.

but I was quite relieved when Tony Gwynn decided to hang up his cleats, rather than try and play a few more years as DH.

[RedSox02]

37. Pedro was in the NL before!

And he had the same reputation. A headhunter. In one game Pedro himself actually charged the mound after he was hit during an at-bat! Another time, Reggie Sanders charged the mound on Pedro when he was hit by a pitch, in the 8th inning, while Pedro still had a perfect game intact! When Pedro came to Boston he had this reputation. I think the whole DH thing is overblown. Besides, it's not like there is an epidemic of hit batters. Baseball has always been like this.

[Caution]

38. This argument about the DH rule in the AL and throwing at batters

has got to stop. It's a fallacy.

A statistic:
in 2003:
American League HBP: 893
National League HBP: 956

I'm not a big fan of the DH but it has absolutely nothing to do with throwing inside. Pedro Martinez played for the NL Montreal Expos and hit 34 batters over 4 years. In 6 years in the AL he has hit 61 batters. He hit 1.3% of the batters faced in the AL and 1.0% of the batters faced in the NL. The difference is incredibly minor. This season Martinez hit 9 batters. In the AL the top throwers for ERA were Martinez (9 HBP), Hudson (10HBP), Loaiza (10HBP), Mulder (2HBP) and Halladay (9HBP). The top 10 have a combined 82HBP

Headhunter? Compared to his peers? Nope.

Now the NL: top 5
Schmidt(5HBP), Prior (5HBP), Webb (13HBP), Schilling (3HBP). Definitely a smaller number, however if you go to the next 5 guys you get (1,10,21!,10) for a combined 81HBP by the top 10.

Why is nobody calling for the head of Kerry Wood? He's the guy who hit 21 batters. How about Victor Zambrano who hit 20? What about the Cubs being called a bunch of punks? Two of their starters hit a combined 35 batters! (Wood hit 21, Clement hit 14).

Pitchers have to throw inside to be successful and when you throw inside you hit batters. Additionally hitters have to move tight in the box against the better pitchers in order to take the inside part of the plate away from the pitcher, as a result they get hit.

While I don't think anyone should be pitching at a guys head I also don't think this is what happened with Martinez on Saturday. From a game standpoint, Martinez had a guy on 2nd and 3rd with 0 outs and a weak hitter at the plate with a weak history against him with Alfonso Soriano coming up next. It would make zero sense to hit this guy in the head. If you watch the replay you can clearly see martinez jumped as soon as the ball left his hand which indicated to me that it slipped out. As for the Zimmer thing, come on, what do you expect him to do? Zimmer runs at him, throws a punch at him, he grabbed the guy and tossed him to the ground. In the same situation I'm knocking Zimmer out. 72 years old or not, you don't attack me and expect me to simply take it. As for the incident with Pedro and Posada yelling back and forth and Pedro pointing to his own head, Posada has said nothing about this so far, and Pedro said he was saying: "I'll remember what you are saying, I won't forget" Everyone assumes for some bizarre reason that Pedro was really saying: "I'll drill you in the head" because in some bizarro universe (clearly not this one since the numbers just don't show it) people think Martinez is a "headhunter"

Do some reading, do some research before listening to the moranic radio announcers and the equally idiotic tv and print writers. These people are looking to create controversy because when they sense a story they'll jump on it and if it turns out to not be there they'll create it.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

40. Bravo, Caution!

Very well-written.

[TopesJunkie]

41. Get rid of the DH, anyway.

And I'd say that 25-30 percent increase in hit batters for Martinez in the AL compared to his NL days is actually quite significant.

Anyway, most HBP are clearly missed pitches. It's the few that are not that present the most danger. Looking at the totals for HBP doesn't really address the danger discussed when one talks about headhunting pitchers.

[Caution]

42. significant?

that 25-30% is 1-2 batters per SEASON! when the total number is extremely small, even a jump of one makes a "significant" percentage increase. This is what we democrats like to refer to as "fuzzy math"

It most certainly does take that into account. When a guy is referred to as a "headhunter" they are talking about a guy who tries to hit batters, they arent talking about a guy who throws deliberately at someone's head.

If you seriously think these guys are trying to hit someone in the head and have that type of control I suggest you learn more about the actual game and the physics of the game.

Firstly, pitchers are well aware of the fact that they can kill someone if they hit them in the head. Accusing a pitcher of being a "headhunter" is akin to accusing him of carrying a loaded gun to the park and when he gets pissed off at a batter simply pulling it out and shooting the person.

Secondly, when a pitcher throws inside they are making a statement, that has to be made for that pitcher to be effective.

Thirdly, as any pitcher will tell you they don't have "pinpoint" control. No one does. These guys are throwing a ball that is about 3 inches in diameter from an elevated perch to a target 60 feet away. Give it a try sometime. Why do you think those honorary first pitch people stand at 30 feet away and still rarely get the ball anywhere near the plate? Because it is extremely hard to do. Most pitchers will state that they have a margin of error of 6" on any of the three planes and a true "control" pitcher has a margin of error of 4" And this is when they do not screw up. The smallest slip can lead to a margin of error of FEET and typically this is what happens when a batter gets hit in or even anywhere near the head.

Try to look at it mathematically. From 60 feet away if the pitcher's release point is even a 1/2" off that translates to way out of the intended target over the course of that 60 foot range (it's actually more than 60 feet due to the elevation of the mound). Then when you take into account the additional factors (airflow over the seams as the ball rotates, which is what makes a ball "move"), what these pitchers do is nothing short of incredible. It is actually an amazing testament to the ability of these guys that they don't hit a lot MORE batters.

When a pitcher is throwing at a batter they always try to hit the batter in the back or in the leg for two reasons, first and foremost because hitting a guy in the head could kill him and that is pre-meditated murder. Second, the back and leg present a MUCH bigger target for the pitcher who needs that margin of error in order to put the pitch where he wants it to be.

[chiburb]

45. Excellent research Caution...

VERY fine post!
Thx.