NASCAR shooting to implement fuel injection in 2011

[DainBramaged]

By the time the 2011 racing season gets under way, the only place to find a carburetor in the Sprint Cup Series might be in NASCAR’s Hall of Fame.

Officials said today that they hope to replace carburetors with fuel injection, and have been testing potential systems with an eye toward making the change as soon as possible.

“We are in the process of the development and the testing and have been for probably six or eight months," ” said Robin Pemberton, vice president of competition for NASCAR.

“The easy part is to just build the fuel injection system. The thing that we need to put into play is how are we going to regulate it, and what’s going to be fair for everybody?”

NASCAR is one of the only racing organizations that continues to use carburetors in its series. Fuel injection is a more accurate, and efficient, way of delivering fuel into the engine. It has been around since the 1950s and has been in place on all passenger cars in the United States since the late 1980s.

Pemberton said some Cup teams have already been developing and working with systems with the expectation that such a move would eventually be made. Some teams, Pemberton said, “do have track time … on their early production or early prototype fuel injection system.

“So our goal is to shoot for 2011,” he said. “I think that’s pretty aggressive. “We are pushing hard."

http://www.scenedaily.com/news/articles/sprintcupseries/NASCAR_shooting_to_implement_fuel_injection_in_2011.html

[PJPhreak]

1. YES!!

Now lets chuck restricter (sp) plates in to Lake Loydd!

[jmowreader]

2. There's a very simple way to prevent cheating, if they'll do it

I think one of the main reasons they haven't done this before now is the worry everyone will rechip their Electronic Control Units. Well...that's easy to fix, sugar--everyone turns in their two ECUs (you know everyone will run with a backup ECU in the car) and are issued replacement ECUs that don't belong to them. Those boxes will remain stone stock.

[Mopar151]

3. ARCA already does this with ignition boxes

They are issued randomly, at the pit gate at each track. Sealed, serialized, and checked between races. Also changed out randomly.


Horsepower is controlled with throttle body size, which is easily measured with guages, as carburetors are now. The carburetors are so refined and hand-rubbed now, that spec EFI will be considerably cheaper.

It won't be quite this sexy, but you can order this today from Kinsler:

[DainBramaged]

4. I think you'll see a modified version of this

[Mopar151]

9. Probably more like this

Sequential port injection gives better fuel control cylinder to cylinder. And a dry manifold is easier to develop than a wet runner manifold - although Kinsler says that a wet stack injector will make more power. NASCAR and the teams would like considerably less power - though the drivers would bring back the big blocks in a heartbeat.

[jmowreader]

20. If NASCAR and the teams want less power, there's a simple way to do it

Change to the 4.2-liter V-6. They won't do that, though.

The best part of fuel injection--no more restrictor plates!

[Mopar151]

26. They tried - it was a disaster.

The 90 degree V-6 has serious balance problems, and an uneven firing order. It is very hard on parts. In the series where it was replaced with a mildly limited V-8, the V-8 lasted 4 times as long between "freshens" - and there is hardly a single stock part in the V-6.

[DainBramaged]

32. Nope, it will be a simple throttle body to keep costs down and limit cheating

:evilgrin:

[Capn Sunshine]

50. why would better chips be cheating?

isn't part of the point of racing to improve the technology?

[Mopar151]

57. Competition

Traction Control. should the best driver win, or the best chip?

[Capn Sunshine]

60. I'm talking about EFI, not traction control

isn't engine technological advancement the excuse we use to keep this profligate sport around?
Make it open platform.

[Mopar151]

61. Great idea in the abstract, problematic in real life

F1 has been down this road already. You can do traction control with EFI as well, by skipping cylinders in the injection sequence. And we should NOT take throttle control, by direct linkage, away from the drivers - because the law of unintendid consequences looms large on that particular subject.

[Blue_Tires]

5. wow...talk about something i never thought i'd see...

what's next? Formula 1 going back to turbochargers?

[Rabrrrrrr]

6. Excellent! And next step - the automatic transmission!

[One_Life_To_Give]

7. The Slushbox?

Oh god perish the thought.

[Mopar151]

8. Why?

Automatics eat power, and have some nasty failure modes - like apocalyptic mechanical explosion nasty. The drag racers that use them are required to surround them with a ballistic nylon or carbon fiber safety shield.
Look at how small the pieces are after this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNBMtV_NDfo

[bamacrat]

10. Plus they get worse gas mileage and offer slower acceleration.

I haven't had an automatic since I was 17 and don't want one.

[Rabrrrrrr]

25. Precisely *because* it would be stupid!

And funny!

[Mopar151]

27. I've seen a transmission explosion, right up close

Scary as hell. You could ask Don Garlits - a transmission explosion took half his foot off. Must be a Jack Tatum / Bob Probert fan.

[DainBramaged]

46. I've had a few of those happen back in the day before trans blankets

Going for a ride in the wayback machine, I was a part of the Truppi-Kling stable in the 60/70's (Ralph died last year , may he rest in peace) and we threw a few converters and clusters in our time. And not just with this car.

[Mopar151]

48. Those guys could make 'em run!

Ironically, the auto trans explosion I remember was a TH 400 in a big-block Chevelle.

[flvegan]

11. I'm surprised it's this late in coming. I'm also surprised they haven't gone F1

with their transmissions a la paddle shifters. I know the gearing is far different, but the gear changes at this point are faster than a human can move a lever.

[Mopar151]

17. On ovals, once you are at racing speed, you don't shift!

paddle shifting requires either very precise engine control, or a much more complex transmission. Mechanical sequentials are do-able - Jerico already makes one that will bolt in - but it is double the cost of the current Cup Jerico, which is already shiftable without the clutch. And there is no net gain if everyone has one! Driver skill is supposed to be the basis of competition in NASCAR.
If whopping doses of gee-whiz tech were the answer, Group B rally cars and German Touring Car Championship would still be around.

The fastest short-track oval cars have no transmission, clutch, or starter, and a single, open tube rear axle. Push start, and away you go! 850 horsepower and no driveline inertia - Yaa-Hoo!

take a ride with Lou Ciccioni at Stafford Springs, you'll see how it works - and watch him work traffic!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAcSvyz9klI

F1 performance, inches apart, no mirrors or spotter.

[TheMightyFavog]

12. Wow, what's next?

Actually having more than two races held at road courses where they actually make RIGHT turns?

[Mopar151]

14. Nationwide series runs at least 3 others

Lime Rock, Road America, Montreal, Mexico City. In the past, Bridgehampton, NY, Riverside Ca, Loudon NH (Bryar Motorsport Park, now the site of NHMS), Heartland park, KS and Portland, Oregon.
And there is a roadracing series for vintage Cup cars in the southeast, I think with SVRA.

Ol' DW (Darrel Waltrip) said "I'm a pretty good roadracer - but don't put that foot camera on me! It looks like I'm a'killin snakes down in the footbox!" Rusty Wallace was absolutely an artist at heel 'n toe.

[Orsino]

13. Increased fuel efficiency in NASCAR?

Sounds good.

[Mopar151]

19. Not too much

Their BSFC numbers are already very good. FI is better at part throttle/light load, but at full throttle, it makes little difference.

[Captain Hilts]

15. They've been toying with this for years. nt

[Mopar151]

23. You could say that - but it's far from the whole story.

The thing is, NASCAR has been trying to slow the cars down on the superspeedways since Talladega opened in '69 or so. And "stock" American cars, with very rare exception, did not have FI 'til the early 80's. The cars shown are from the '60's - but they rarely ran under NASCAR sanction, and even then in a "Modified" class. And most burned alcahol - it is more tolerant of a rich mixture than gasoline, and the low pressure fuel injection was relatively crude, and took a good deal of tinkering to get right.
My dad had an EFI Volkswagen in '68 - some folks tried to talk to the (analog) computer!
Yes, I know about the Lucas and Kugelfischer high pressure mechanical injection - but it was gawdawful expensive, and not that reliable. Diesels are another matter entirely - Diesel fuel has some lubricating capabilities, and is thicker than gas as well.

[bluesbassman]

16. Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown.

What? :evilgrin:

[Mopar151]

18. Lots of fun on the street

Would'nt last long on the track. Roots blowers make a lot of heat - so much so that, on gasoline, the net gain on this engine is about 200 Hp. The real gains are in torque and driveability.
The story is a little different with alky fuel, or a huge intercooler with a centrifigal supercharger.
This engine combination will make about 800 horsepower - with "stack" injection and alcahol fuel, it can make nearly 1000.

[bluesbassman]

22. Doesn't need to last too long if the track is only 1320ft.

But you're right of course for NASCAR.

I just love the sound of a blower. Even to this day, it always makes me look when I hear one.

[Mopar151]

24. I f they ever perfect the engine sound synthesizer

for the car stereo - I want a 526 BAE on alky with a 25% over 14/71!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGJLcFFzlyo

[Inchworm]

21. That sucks on soooo many levels

bye bye real mechanics :(

:cry:

[jmowreader]

30. Real mechanics went away LONG ago in NASCAR

They're about one step away from engine leasing now.

[Mopar151]

31. I would beg to differ

Just because people tend to specialise in one thing, or work in a formal structure, does not mean they are without other talents. In many cases in Cup, the other talents are quite impressive - and there are some pretty fair drivers in the gararge, too.

[jmowreader]

33. That's not QUITE what I was referring to

Rather, NASCAR has tightened the rules so much you really can't do anything innovative.

You know what I think would be real popular? If NASCAR would designate, say, six races as "Crew Chief" events. Pick six--I'm thinking the Coca-Cola 600, plus a race at Richmond, Chicago, Bristol, Texas and Fontana. Tell the crews, "bring a car that met the last Cup rulebook before the COT transition. We're going to check for safety items, weigh the car, make sure you aren't running a turbo or a bottle, and measure your engine to be sure you're running a small-block...but beyond that you can do pretty much whatever you want." A lot of NASCAR's rulebook is written to take money out of the equation--to make a team with modest funding competitive with a big team. If you'd like to know how well it works, look at the final season standings for 2009, where the top three teams all drive for Rick Hendrick and the top twelve all run for huge multicar operations. Since money IS obviously a factor here, let's see what would happen if we let these guys have a free hand.

[Mopar151]

36. It's called the Whelen Modified Tour

If you can't get off your duff and out to the track, watch Madhouse on History. Those are the cars on the NASCAR Whelen Tour, the NASCAR Whelen Southern Tour, The Race of Champions tour, and the Modified Racing Series. And weekly tracks (like Bowman-Gray)from Maine to the Carolinas. In somewhat different form, IMCA and similar Modifieds populate the Midwest's short tracks, and "NY style" dirt modifieds race under several sanctions, cheifly in NY, PA, and adjoining states. Cup drivers climb into these cars regularly - Tony Stewart is phenomal in them. Other Cup drivers run well, but hardly dominate.
See if you can catch this year's inaugural Bristol Modified race in the reruns (great show!), and the North/South Shootout should be up soon on cable as well.
And all the old Cup cars are gone - to ARCA, the HSR roadrace series, and sundry. The ARCA series is pretty cool - they even run on dirt!
In the interest of full disclosure, I know a bunch of the guys on the MRS tour, and used to crew for one of the owners. And I've bummed a couple truckloads of used tires from the Featherlite (then) tour, and hillclimb a Modified style car in the New England Hillclimb Series.
This look racy enough for you? An ROC modified

Whelen Tour cars at Bristol (worth clicking the link)
?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF878921CC759DF4EBAC47D0C6852AE3E00BAAC13033767B8250848D33EF6EDAF8E63391E30A760B0D811297

IMCA style pavement Mod

Northeastern dirt modified - some run 800 hp big blocks!


An IMCA dirt mod at I-70 Speedway in MO.

[Taitertots]

34. Good bye Mechanics, Hello Engineers

[david13]

28. Wow, already they're makin ona them thur tekneelogical

advencements? Wow, they sure is up ta date, ain't they.
Only 30 years after everybody else has.
dc

[Mopar151]

29. Corvette GTP, campaigned by Hendrick motorsports

Them ol' boys are just fine with fuel injection, have been for 40+ years. NASCAR tries to limit costs, and keep driving skill, tuning, and setup a large part of the competition. And they have been restricting power and speeds since Talladega opened, to literally keep the cars from flying into the grandstands.

[Taitertots]

35. NASCAR hopes to be as technologically advanced as my 20 year old van

It only took decades of doing everything in their power to slow the cars down and fight innovation.

[Mopar151]

38. It's called "don't kill the paying customers"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt5XCCgwulA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wySxP-tWZQU

[Taitertots]

40. Why don't they have that problem with other forms of racing?

[Mopar151]

41. They do.

In spades. NHRA has shortened the track for the fuel cars, the (exhibition) jets have a speed limit on NHRA tracks. If your local short track does not have 3 rows of 5/8" guardrail cable in the fence - they don't have insurance! If you see the monster trucks on TeeVee, notice that the lower sections of the grandstand are tarped over - and the trucks are equipped with a remote shutoff.
Our hillclimb club runs on non-spectator insurance - we are not even allowed to invite the public for free, and our State permit grants us access control. We rent cops when we can, and the local police have hauled off idiots in carload lots for us.

[Taitertots]

42. Yet none of those are limited to 30's technology

They just race in situations that protect the audience from the vehicles.

[Mopar151]

44. You're entitled to your opinion - but it is, at best, uninformed.

But, my point is - every racing series - yes, even F1 - has had controls on speeds and technology proliferation since sometime in the 60's. They may not be as visible as NASCAR - but they are there, nonetheless. Some is to protect the fans - there were some frightful debacles in the 50's, most notably the LeMans tragedy - but sometime in the 60's, killing drivers got to be bad for business, too.
And NASCAR is hardly "limited to 30's technology", even to things as basic as the steel in the frames. There are a host of things - disc brakes, multistrike electronic ignition, integral power steering, servomotor guages, containment seats - that did not even exist as a concept in the 30's. And virtually every other piece of the car has been refined to a level simply unattainable then.

[Taitertots]

47. Why are you hallucinating that I don't think they have speed controls in other racing series

The difference is NASCAR speed controls are excessive. Even in the wake of the Le Mans crash they didn't neuter the racing like NASCAR. The engine restrictions, the body restrictions, the suspension restrictions.


I want my racing to be more than advertisements cruising in circles. That is the corporate neutered racing for Americans. Keep profits up as high as possible for the corporations, who cares about the racing.

[Mopar151]

49. Then follow another series!

The trouble is, the same realities affect other series as well - perhaps less visibly, or to a different degree - but look around , the same things are happening. NHRA T/F and F/C are very tightly regulated - RPM limiters, gear rule, supercharger restrictions,fuel limits, and NHRA is paying for testing to develop a new engine combination.
IHRA "national events" are going to be booked-in shows in the pro categories. No open qualifing - but I suppose that's appropriate, given that they are now owned by the same folks that own the Ringling Bros. Circus!

[Taitertots]

51. I do follow other series

Yes, they do have all varieties of restrictions. Those restrictions are not excessive.

The sad reality is that to protect the fans and drivers NASCARs need to be restricted to the point where I don't enjoy watching it.

[PJPhreak]

52. Without Restrictions

The average NASCAR Racecar would be moving down the backstrech at Talladega at somewhere between 245-255 mph. the object here is to keep these critters on the ground.
I for one am NOT a fan of restrictor plates,IMHO they are one of the contributing factors in Dale Earnhardt's death..I am no fan of a pack of 43 Thirty Four Hundred lb cars that cover a span less than 300 yards moving at 200 mph.
This being said,go to youtube and look up some of the crashes over the years that happen when one of these cars get turned backwards.

[Taitertots]

55. Fuel injected engines with plates would have the same restriction

More aerodynamic cars would be slower in the long straights.
Limits to minimum weight and engine displacement would slow them down.

There doesn't have to be a trade off, antiquated technology for safety.

[PJPhreak]

59. Yes,You are correct,

The problem with fuel/air restriction is a matter of acceleration,not necessarily top end.
one of the things that let some cars "Run Away" from the pack in years past (1969 to 1988 if I remember right) is that a small group of cars that had better 'Giddy-up" than the rest could stay out in front.
My biggest bitch with restrictor plates is that the cars "Pack-up" and stay that way,that way superspeedway racing becomes more a matter of Aerodynamics than a matter of true performance.

Like I said,if they weren't all packed up going into the fourth turn at Daytona in '01 we may still be arguing weather or not Dale Sr. is an aggressive asshole!

[Mopar151]

53. Then why did you post that "30's technology" bunk? n/t

[Taitertots]

54. They are using antiquated technology

I think it is safe to say that carburetors are pre 1930's technology.
Disc brakes are 1950's technology
The frames and body are 1960's


Speed restrictions don't need to take the form of saddling teams with antiquated fuel delivery systems (carburetors).

[Mopar151]

56. Lookit, you

I can't help it if you've got your mind made up - but I've spent most of my career as a machinist around the advanced materials business, in various forms, and I've been around hard-core stock car and sportscar racing since I was a kid. If you want to go theought the car bolt by bolt, piece by piece, I can show you that virtually every one is impossible to make at its current level of refinement without advanced technoligies - yes, even the carburetors and the spark plugs.
I'm not saying NASCAR does everything perfectly - but APPROPRIATE, AFFORDABLE use of technology is huge in today's world. I'm not in love with restrictor plate racing, either - I agree with Richard Petty, that the solution to Daytona and Talldega is a bulldozer! We don't race on parabolic, superelevated board tracks anymore either.
I'm betting that you can't even tell me how a modern carburetor works, how it is made, or what new technoligies go into it's development and refinement. As I said in an earlier post, spec EFI is being discussed and implemented because of COST.

[Taitertots]

58. The fanciest carburetor is still antiquated technology

It would be like having the best HD black and white tube television. You couldn't build it without modern refinement, but at the end of the day it is 1950's technology. NASCAR is the greatest black and white television.

I've rebuilt carburetors, back when all I could afford was a carbureted car. I'm not certain the exact internal components of a NASCAR carburetor, but I assume it is somewhat similar. A venturi creates a low pressure region by making the air move faster, this pulls fuel through a "jet".

[Mopar151]

62. The second person to make my ignore list.

Doesn't get the science, does'nt get the point, only interested in restating his meme.

[Iggo]

37. I only clicked because I read "NASCAR shooting..."

Man, what a letdown.

[Mopar151]

45. Look up a Ward Burton fansite

[Forkboy]

39. I don't know what any of this means.

When I was growing up in small town America all the dudes worked on cars and wrestled shirtless in the yard. I hung out with the girls drawing pictures of Spider Man. I learned some skills but what cars did wasn't one of them. To this day I still don't know if this is a good or bad thing. :)

[Mopar151]

43. FWIW, some of it is about the art for me.

There are many excellent writers and photographers, which had a lot to do with hooking me on the whole car thing. Handmade cars are art, and some production cars as well. We don't all agree on what is art - but that's some of what makes it art! Most of the bookworms I know are car people.


his is Jackie Howerton's eternal project - he was a sprint car driver, and he and his sons do fabrication and crash repair for Indy cars. He's been working on this for years. All the components of the body and frame, and most of the chassis, was built by Jackie - sometimes several times to attain perfection - even the hinges and door latches!
He finally sold it to a wealthy patron, so the new owner would make him finish it!
Most of the stuff we've been jabbering about are the equivalent of the designated hitter, or the infield fly rule.