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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 12:34 PM
Original message
GM's Electric Auto Will Need a Leap of Science
"Could the battery-powered electric car be poised for a comeback? General Motors Corp. says a Chevy that plugs into a socket might be three to five years away.

Just about every other automaker says otherwise, noting that major technical hurdles make a plug-in vehicle a distant dream. They say that lithium-ion battery technology is too expensive and unstable to be used in a car." (Note: do not, under any circumstances, bring up that safe and proven NiMH technology)

<>

"Mel Gibson, the filmmaker and former EV1 owner, as well as other devotees of the environmental movement, simply won't face the fact that the average motorist of the 1990s, able to buy cheap gasoline and partial to power, preferred to drive a big sport-utility vehicle -- not a highly compromised science project on wheels."

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=a70odMy4PSuY&refer=home

This regurgitation of propaganda and outright lies, obviously bought and paid for by GM's marketing department, attests to their desperation as bankruptcy looms imminent.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. Another hate-filled hit job by an anti-union American car hater
grow up, your comments were bullshit. If you hate them so much, why bother to comment. I don't post hit pieces about the rice burners polluting my land, and I will go to my grave without owning one.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. How does being anti-GM make one anti-union?
Just because I wish GM a quick and painless death I have the utmost of support for unions. May they continue to bargain in good faith for worker's rights with more responsible companies like Toyota, which owns seven plants and contributes 110,000 jobs to the American economy.

It's time to rethink blind allegiance to American carmakers, who have continually given American workers AND consumers the short end of the stick.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Think about what the Slim Jim guy used to say
With this, I decided I won't have to look at your posts any longer. Long live ignore.
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piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
30. wow.
From the Rules:
People who are easily offended, or who are not accustomed to having their opinions (including deeply personal convictions) challenged may not feel entirely comfortable here.
and
A thick skin is necessary to participate on this or any other discussion forum.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Incidentally....
Being on DB's ignore list is a sure sign you're talking sense. :hi:
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Wow
I tend to reserve ignore for the Most Obnoxious, but it seems poor DB sees plain old logic as his enemy. He must have a long list. :shrug:
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. But the good news ....
> and I will go to my grave without owning one.

... is that by supporting GM in your blind fanatical way, that grave
will turn up that bit sooner for everyone on this planet!

Hurrah! We might be screwing the world but we're doing it
the ALL-AMERICAN way!

:patriot: :rofl:
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
35. do you consider Mexico part of the US?
Edited on Thu Jan-25-07 03:15 PM by LSK
I assume you drive a Corvette. Because thats just about the last car made in the USA by GM.

I once shared your sentiment, but the battle has been lost. This is no longer 1990 anymore. There is no such thing as an American car or a Rice burner except for a few.
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kevsand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. "bought and paid for by GM's marketing department"
Ummm ... in that article at least, GM is promoting new renewable energy technologies, and sounding a note of optimism. It's the other so-called automotive experts that are spewing the propaganda against GM.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. nonsense
GM isn't promoting a damn thing--except continued reliance on internal combustion, from which they and like-minded members of the National Petroleum Institute profit immensely. GM had a car 3 years ago that went 80 miles on a charge, of which they crushed every single specimen. Why? I should be excited because the range of the "Volt", slated for production at some point in the indefinite future, is half that?

GM'S alternative fuel cars have been 3-5 years away for the last 20 years. This is a PR gimmick to pacify casual observers, and apparently it is successful. Think it's another wild conspiracy theory? It's happened before:

"Believe it or not, for the first half of this century, smooth, clean, and comfortable streetcars ruled America's Cities. In Los Angeles, these streetcars or "trolleys" were run by The Pacific Electric Company and called "Red Cars." This fast and cheap mode of transportation traveled the streets of L.A. on tracks or overhead wires, which provided their electricty. Since they were not fueled by gasoline, they did not emit the pollution that our cars and buses do today. The world-famous Red Cars were quiet and easy to take from one destination to another, and cheap enough to be available for anyone to use."

"Then in 1936, General Motors joined forces with Firestone Tire and Rubber, Standard Oil, Phillips Petroleum and Mack Truck to form a corporation called National City Lines. The purpose of NCL was to use its immense pool of wealth to buy up trolley tracks and systems in cities across the US, dismantle them, and replace them with diesel bus lines..."

http://www.ustrek.org/odyssey/semester2/021701/021701beckytransit.html

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kevsand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Just so I'm clear:
Is it your argument then that, because of something they did in 1936, any statement that GM makes in favor of electric cars is actually propaganda against electric cars?
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. You got it
The statement is to pacify casual observers. It will never, and never was intended to, bear fruit. The pattern of their actions, which extends back even before 1936, is to put profits ahead of any environmental concerns whatsoever.
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. Do they mean a leap of science like this?
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Catch22Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Or one like this? The Air Car...
http://www.theaircar.com

Welcome to the future!

After twelve years of reserch and development, Guy Negre has developed an engine that could become one of the biggest technological advances of this century. Its application to CAT vehicles gives them significant economical and environmental advantages. With the incorporation of bi-energy (compressed air + fuel) the CAT Vehicles have increased their driving range to close to 2000 km with zero pollution in cities and considerably reduced pollution outside urban areas.
As well, the application of the MDI engine in other areas, outside the automotive sector, opens a multitude of possibilities in nautical fields, co-generation, auxiliary engines, electric generators groups, etc. Compressed air is a new viable form of power that allows the accumulation and transport of energy. MDI is very close to initiating the production of a series of engines and vehicles. The company is financed by the sale of manufacturing licences and patents all over the world.





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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Cool - but I still like electric plug in! :-) n/t
n/t
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Latest word on Prius plugin
is that it's at least a year away, and likely more expensive than first proposed. Engineers are actually having to work around Toyota software which actually works to prevent cars being modified to plugins. Encouraging, no?
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I'll still buy it - if I can make my clunker last 2 more years :-)
:-)
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. If your clunker is a good conversion candidate
you might want to consider that. With a suitable compact you can put together an all-electric car for about $10,000, with 90 miles of range and top speed of 75mph.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
4. Fellow doesn't know his subject - Telsa Motors sold out its first run of "science projects"
Edited on Sun Jan-21-07 01:12 PM by papau
http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1

Our initial production run of Tesla Roadsters sold out in four months. But it's not too late to get one of your own.

We are now accepting reservations for 2008 model year cars on a first-come, first-serve basis. If you sign up now, you will be at the top of the list when deliveries begin.

Zero to 60 mph in about 4 seconds with a top speed of over 130 mph*. But this is not the whole story. Because it has no clutch and a very wide, flat torque curve, the acceleration of the Tesla Roadster is much more available to enjoy: just step on the accelerator and go - no matter what speed you are driving, no matter what gear you are in, the acceleration is instantaneous.

the Tesla Roadster offers double the efficiency of popular hybrid cars, while generating one-third of the carbon dioxide.

All Lithium Ion batteries are classified by the federal government as non-hazardous waste and are safe for disposal in the normal municipal waste stream. These batteries, however, do contain recyclable materials that make recycling a good idea.
===============================================================
A123Systems

A123Systems has quickly become one of the Worlds largest suppliers of high-power lithium-ion batteries. Based on the Companys patented nanophosphate technology, the batteries deliver previously unattainable levels of power, safety and life. Applicable to a wide range of industries, A123Systems products allow OEMs expanded flexibility in system design, removing many traditional technology constraints. Founded in 2001, A123Systems proprietary nanoscale electrode technology is built on initial developments from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. For additional information about A123Systems please contact Keith Watson at 617-758-4142 or visit www.a123systems.com.
===========================================================================
Saphion technology:

Along with the performance and cycle life advantages of Lithium-ion, this change in cathode material yields several additional advantages specific to Saphion technology. And, because of these characteristics, Saphion technology is suitable for not only in the traditional Lithium-ion markets such as the individual consumer and enterprise markets, but also for emerging markets not currently served by Lithium-ion technology, such as the telecom, utility and motive industries.

Key Features of Saphion Technology:

High Performance
Safe/Stable Chemistry
High Rate Capability
Extraordinary Cycle Life
Long Service Life
Environmentally Friendly
Flexible Form Factor

The safety characteristics inherent to Saphion technology result from the incorporation of phosphates as the cathode material. Phosphates are extremely stable in overcharge or short circuit conditions and have the ability to withstand high temperatures without decomposing. When abuse does occur, phosphates are not prone to thermal runaway and will not burn. As a result, Saphion technology possesses safety characteristics that are fundamentally superior to those of Lithium-ion batteries made with other cathode materials.
======================================================================
Saphion technology does not contain any heavy metals and does not exhibit the "memory effect" of Nickel-Cadmium and Nickel-metal Hydride solutions. Saphion technology demonstrates excellent shelf life, long cycle life and is maintenance free.

Another key benefit of our Saphion technology is its flexibility, both in terms of battery application and cell design. It can be used in wound cylindrical, wound prismatic and polymer battery construction types and manufactured to fit smaller applications, such as the N-Charge Power System and larger applications, such as the U-Charge Power System.

The advantages of traditional Lithium-ion coupled with the safety features of phosphates, make Saphion technology the Lithium-ion technology for the future. Our Saphion Lithium-ion technology utilizes natural, phosphate-based material and offers the greatest combination of performance, safety, cost, reliability and environmental characteristics.
===========================================================================
Toyota provides an 8 year/100,000 mile warranty (on the nickel-metal hydride batteries). and don't forget, just because the warranty has expired doesn't mean the battery will immediately fail. There are plenty of hybrids that have gone beyond the warranty period without a failure.

In November of 2005, when asked about the price of a new Prius battery, Toyota spokeswoman Mona Richard said, "The service parts price for a new battery is $3000, but we have not had to sell a battery yet."
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. The fact that a startup can make a car like this viable
is proof that a manufacturing behemoth like GM has no interest in making an affordable electric car. None.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. True - BTW - Cal has the software to plug-in Prius - why is it so difficult for
Toyota? Granted Cal wants $12,000 to do the plug in/extra battery modification on 2004 and later Prius's - but you'd think that a Toyota production run would cut that back to near zero extra cost.

Is there a link to the report of a delay in production of the plug in or a report of the software problem?
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. You ask a very good question - the big mystery
Edited on Sun Jan-21-07 02:30 PM by wtmusic
Someday 30 years from now an insider will publish a tell-all book about WTF is going on now in the auto and petroleum industries.

Most engineers feel that Toyota could have their own plugin on the assembly line within weeks. Why don't they? Is there not a huge profit to be made?

The answer might have something to do with why Toyota scrapped their successful all-electric RAV4s. IMO it's hard for any rational person to exclude the possibility a deal was cut between oil/auto industries and that a huge sum of money changed hands. There was simply too much to lose.

EDrive and EnergyCS have recently parted ways so the future is a little cloudy in that direction. Lots of great give and take at:

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/edrivephev/messages/269

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CRF450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. "Zero to 60 mph in about 4 seconds with a top speed of over 130 mph"
Not bad, but my Trans Am will win past 130mph! I'v been up to 165mph in it, its all stock too.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Ugh, the point is the tesla is all electric while yours still runs on gas.
>shakes head in wonder<
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CRF450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. I know that
And its pretty cool! But I wont be getting rid of my car anytime. How bout an electric dirtbike? Since I love motorcross...
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Don't fret about it
I think he's going for a 100% record in anti-Environment posts just
to tempt the mods into banning him.
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CRF450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. you know...
I'm not being anti-enviroment, but their is a topic I want to start about the issues democrats bring up that affects my favorite sport and hobby, which is OHV use. I'm not a republican, just indepandent that wants to know your say on it. So yeah, I am a performance enthusiast, I like fast vehicles/bikes.
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. OK
It's just that from your posts that I've read, you seem to take great
pleasure at boasting of wasting fuel for "performance", even when (like
in this case) the performance of the alternative isn't a problem.
This reads to me as flame-bait in an Environment forum but YMMV :-)

We can agree to disagree! :hi:
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. yeah... and because everyone needs to drive 165mph.
may as well get there even faster...

:eyes:
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. There's a Darwin award in here somewhere.
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Moby Grape Donating Member (105 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
28. how good were NiMH batteries?
obviously lead-acids would not be acceptable.
with deep-cycling, batts might last 500 cycles.if that.

with NiMH, how many cycles, before they die?
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. A NiMH will last about 500 cycles as well.
NiMH don't like rapid discharging though.

A lithium ion battery will last up to 1000 charges, and has a higher energy density than NiMH, but they are a lot more expensive too.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. I am trying to sort out which battery to buy for a bicycle application
Please tell me what you think http://www.bionx.ca/en/main/default/46.shtml
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
29. Can you tell me what I need to know about NiMH vs. Lithium batteries?
I am actually thinking of making a purchase and need a good article that details the difference. If you would be so kind. :hi:
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
34. I thought the Prius plugin was about a year away
And an aftermarket kit is available this year.
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