Need to ask for a little help

[PavePusher]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4328410&mesg_id=4328464

I'm at work, pretty busy tonight, could someone please dig up the links that bust the "90% of seized Mexican firearms" myth/lie, and either post them to me here, or directly to my linked post above?

Thanks in advance, and I will owe you one. Cheers.

[Euromutt]

1. I've found some

There was some discussion in this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x230890#231502
and this one: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x231699

To save you some scanning, I'll cite a post of my own (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=230890&mesg_id=232021) that cites the GAO report http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d09709.pdf

In 2008, of the almost 30,000 firearms that the Mexican Attorney General’s office said were seized, only around 7,200, or approximately a quarter, were submitted to ATF for tracing. (page 16)

The estimated number of guns traced to US sources, according to Figure 3 on page 15, was ~6,700. That means that the guns traced to U.S. sources formed 93% of guns submitted to the ATF, but only 21% of firearms reportedly seized by the Mexican authorities.

GAO implicitly assumes that the guns submitted to the ATF are a representative sample of the total guns captured, but there's really no reason to assume that. For starters, it strikes me that the Mexicans would be likely to give priority in submitting serial numbers to guns that probably did come from or through the U.S. After all, why waste time tracing guns that'll most likely come up blank?

U.S. assistance has been limited due to the incomplete use to date of eTrace by Mexican government officials. <...> <The> data inputted into eTrace currently serves as the best data we found available for analyzing the source and nature of the firearms that are being trafficked and seized in Mexico. However, because Mexican government officials have only entered a portion of the information on firearms seized, the eTrace data only represents data from these gun trace requests, not from all the guns seized. (pages 47-48)

The report goes on to list a number of problems encountered in permitting the Mexican A-G's office in effectively using eTrace.

[PavePusher]

3. That's the one, thanks!! n/t

[katandmoon]

2. It's not that easily debunked

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/counting-mexicos-guns/

But you could still go with the number cited by Fox News instead of the number cited by the ATF. You know how accurate and unslanted Fox is.

[PavePusher]

4. See above. Cheers! n/t

[friendly_iconoclast]

12. Awww, somebody went and brought facts to a faith-based argument.

Why, the nerve of some people!

[one-eyed fat man]

18. Did you bother to read the link?

When you wade all the way through it you will find out that the 90% figure is BOGUS!!! Further reading points out that while not all guns were submitted for tracing, that the 17% Fox came up with was also likely bogus and that the true figure was likely double that and maybe 34%

Now the question is who's the BIGGER liar, one who inflates figures by 300% or one who under reports by half?

Unquestionably, the "90% of guns seized in Mexico" are traced to the US makes a better sound bite and underscores that Dr. Goebbels was correct in that if you repeat an outrageous lie often enough, people will come to believe it.

The only germ of truth is that of the guns submitted to ATF, they were able to trace 90%. Put another way, If the Mexicans turn in a revolver marked "Colt" to the ATF to be traced, doubtless it came from either Hartford, CT or Patterson, NJ although a "Patterson Colt" would likely have been brought back to Mexico by General Antonio López de Santa Anna from the Alamo.

The distortion comes from when either through malice or stupidity, the administration's mouthpieces impute that the Mexican government submits all the guns it seizes to the ATF for tracing. This becomes a deliberately vile and despicable manipulation of the facts when the same people dismiss accounts from Mexican officials that they only submit weapons that are not obviously of US origin.

So that means the Romanian RPG's, Bulgarian machine guns, North Korean grenades and the rest of the REAL military grade ordnance that is beyond doubt not US in origin, thus never submitted for ATF tracing, is deceitfully imputed to have come from the US civilian market.

Just because you like the lie, doesn't make it any less of a lie.

[ManiacJoe]

5. To get folks pointed in the right direction,

searching for
LA times mexico firearms
should eventually find the requested DU threads.

[onehandle]

6. Guns don't kill people. Technicalities kill people.

And guns kill people.

[PavePusher]

7. 90% vs. less than 20% is not a "technicality".

It's an outright misleading, mendacious fabrication. From our government.

Transparency, much?

[benEzra]

8. There's also the fabrication that U.S.-made M16's, M203's, etc.

come from the U.S. civilian market, when those weapons are only sold to the military, LE agencies, and foreign governments.

[PavePusher]

9. Oops, I made a mistake...

it's just over 20%, 21 to be correct.

My bad.


See? Mistake, retraction, correction, apology.

Not that's a technicality.

[jazzhound]

10. Something you'll never see coming from the antis:

"Mistake, retraction, correction, apology."

[PavePusher]

13. Thanks for all the assists, folks!

The near-silence over there is... thunderous.

You all rock! :toast:

(Edited for spelling, I'm having real issues typing this week. Allergies are killing me...)
(Edit 2: Bloody hell, I even posted in the wrong part of the thread...!)

[Callisto32]

15. Shares can't help it.

For a lot of people, it's okay when someone they agree with lies. If it were the Bush administration saying "90% of American deaths abroad are caused by Muslim-super-mega-narco-hydro-islamo-fascists!" It would be cited as proof that Bush is a evil/idiot-nazi-windbag-trying-to-take-over-the-world-ite. When the Obama admin gets their facts wrong by degrees of magnitude, its a "technicality."

I'm not defending the Bush administration. I'm saying that they are both liars when it suits their needs/desires.

The "I don't care when MY guy lies" mentality is another sad effect of the larger red team/blue team mentality that keeps people divided and ignoring the excesses of the state.

We have to be willing to call people out, ESPECIALLY those with whom we generally agree.

[friendly_iconoclast]

22. Wrong guy. But still, using the same tactics as Dick Armey?

See the link in post #21

[Callisto32]

24. What do you mean by "wrong guy?"

Maybe I'm just thick...

[friendly_iconoclast]

25. Twerent shares as said it n/t

[friendly_iconoclast]

11. Musn't let technicalities like "factual inaccuracy" impede the Glorious Cause, eh?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=306225&mesg_id=306278

[onehandle]

16. The NRA is mother. The NRA is father.

[SteveM]

17. Are you chanting a prayer or something? There is a religion forum. nt

[friendly_iconoclast]

19. When all else fails, punt. It helps delay the inevitable

It doesn't stop it, mind you, but you can still pretend there's a chance....

[GreenStormCloud]

20. When you can't rebut, deflect. N/T

[friendly_iconoclast]

21. Well, it *is* kind of embarassing getting caught aping right-wingers on DU

All for the Great and Glorious Cause, I'm sure:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20100401/pl_mcclatchy/3466905

"Some right-wingers ignore facts as they rewrite U.S. history"

My favorite bit was Dick Armey denying Alexander Hamilton (who wrote many of the Federalist Papers) was a Federalist!

Pitiful seeing a DUer trying to use the same kind of con as Dick Armey...

[one-eyed fat man]

23. do a little more reading

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/latinamerica/la-fg-mexico-gunbattles2-2010apr02,0,5886596.story?track=rss

Armored vehicles, grenades, rocket launchers, now I understand that deep within your heart of hearts you fervently believe there is a secret backroom at gun shows where if you know the codewords and handshake you can buy all the military hardware from your local friendly Freeper militia community organizers with a wink and a nod. However, it appears that the LA Times points out other sources the trafficantes are using to get their military grade hardware besides your pipe dreams.

Doubtless there are civilian guns getting smuggled into Mexico but to repeatedly intimate that vast quantities of military grade ordnance are entering Mexico from the US commercial gun trade naively disingenuous at best and deliberately deceitful at worst.

[proteus_lives]

26. onehandle's logic-free arguments kill people.

[PavePusher]

14. Thanks for all the assists, folks!

The near-silence over there is... thunderous.

You all rock! :toast: