A Rise in Violent Crime Evokes City’s Unruly Past (New York - where you can't defend yourself)

[shadowrider]

Teenagers flashing knives in a spate of high school stabbings. Two men murdered in a brawl aboard a downtown No. 2 subway train. Four people shot and 33 others arrested in late-night melees in Times Square that Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg described with a loaded term from the past: “wilding.”

BAN PEOPLE

It is impossible to know if the recent increase in violent crime in the city is legitimate cause for concern that the “bad old days” of crime may return, or if it simply represents a blip in a trend line continuing a descent of nearly two decades.

Homicides are up nearly 22 percent in 2010, compared with the same period last year. Shootings are up in the city, to 293 from 257, a 14 percent increase. And there are more victims of gunfire: 351 through April 4, up from 318 in the same period a year ago.

This can't possibly be. Guns are illegal in New York City.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/12/nyregion/12police.html

[old mark]

1. The FBI reports violent crime in the US is at a 28 year LOW - everywhere but NYC?

Maybe we should send them some guns from PA.....


mark

[shadowrider]

3. I haven't seen the exact numbers

Maybe they're cooking the books in anticipation of yet more gun control/weapon control (read: knives) laws?

:shrug:

[old mark]

8. Like in Britain, where the muggers kick you to death with steel tipped boots...

It is the people, folks, not the tools.


mark

[Recursion]

100. There's been a slight uptick in the past 2 years

But, yes, the country is orders of magnitude less violent than it used to be. Largely because we've locked up most of the young poor males.

[niceypoo]

2. Not sure what the point of this thread is

Flood NYC with guns to rescue it from violence?

[shadowrider]

4. The point would be

Crime goes up when innocent people are unable to defend themselves.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SteveM]

7. Actually, Repugs get elected when gun-controllers play whack-a-mole. And lose. nt

[niceypoo]

9. I see you have the RW talking point down pat

Reality: The murder rate in NYC has dropped steadily for 20 years. That blows your GOP talking point out of the water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_New_York_City_crimes_and_disasters#Murders_by_year">Murders in NYC by year:

1990 2245
1991 2154
1992 1995
1993 1946
1994 1561
1995 1177
1996 983
1997 770
1998 633
1999 671
2000 673
2001 649
2002 587
2003 597
2004 570
2005 539
2006 596
2007 494
2008 522
2009 463

[shadowrider]

15. Did you read the article? (2010 rates included)

Homicides are up nearly 22 percent in 2010, compared with the same period last year. Shootings are up in the city, to 293 from 257, a 14 percent increase. And there are more victims of gunfire: 351 through April 4, up from 318 in the same period a year ago.

RW talking points. That's funny. I didn't know provable statistics could have a political viewpoint. I point out an article from the NY Times, about a city with a Republican Mayor who believes even more draconian gun laws should apply to his city AND surrounding states and you're telling me they're RW?

A rise in crime is not a LW or RW talking point. It's fact regardless.

[niceypoo]

20. But how do you account for the previous19 years?

The rate DROPPED for the previous 19 years under the same gun ban. You are attempting to argue that a 3 month spike in violence erases nineteen years of a steady decrease in violence. Please explain, in the frame of your RW talking points, how this is possible.

RW'ers believe that all social ills can be cured by handing everybody a gun. Pure lunacy.

[shadowrider]

22. I never said a 3 month spike erases nineteen years of drop

Please don't put words in my mouth, and are you insinuating that wanting to have a gun for self-defense, no matter the location, is strictly a RW position? If it is, what is the "progressive" position. Educate me, please.

[niceypoo]

26. "Crime goes up when innocent people are unable to defend themselves."

Were people able to 'defend themselves' the previous 19 years while the rate was steadily dropping?

[tburnsten]

31. Easy. The discriminatory gun laws had no significant impact on anything

but honest citizen's ability to survive being the victim of a violent crime.

There were many other things going on over the last twenty years that had a bigger impact on the crime rate and murder rate than the discretionary (read- CORRUPT) firearms laws of NYC.

[Warren Stupidity]

108. Another unfounded assertion.

"no significant impact on anything but honest citizen's ability to survive being the victim of a violent crime."

Please provide the statistics that demonstrate that NYC's gun laws had a significant negative impact on crime victim survival rates.

[tburnsten]

114. As soon as you put up statistics showing that they

had any impact at all on the violent crime rate.

[Warren Stupidity]

117. I have already stated repeatedly that there is no demonstrable effect.

Now it is your turn.

[krispos42]

89. Except the gun laws were enacted in the 70's, I believe.

So there's a couple of decades of failure before the nationwide crime rate drops.

In the book "Freakonomics" the authors credit the legalization of abortion in 1973 as one of the major reasons for the drastic drop in violent-crime rates a generation later. New York legalized abortion several years before Roe v. Wade and thus had their violent-crime rate drop several years sooner than the national rate.

Mayor 9/11's claim to be a great crime-fighter that turned the city arould is, as would be expected, a bunch of bullshit.

[Warren Stupidity]

107. 1911. Sullivan laws.

[Statistical]

124. Rates have fallen around the country FASTER without infringing upon peoples rights.

[Euromutt]

6. Further down, the article does make some good points about statistical comparisons

But perceptions about crime and safety are often more potent than reality. Criminologists long have warned against using statistics selectively, to study trends in crime over short time periods — say, less than six months’ worth of data — because such analyses can lead to faulty portrayals.

For instance, the murder rate is up this year, because of increased numbers of killings in the first three months of the year, but the rate is in no way near its peak.

Through April 4, there were 118 homicides recorded, up from 97 in the same period a year earlier, for a 21.6 percent increase. But through March, the tally for the year was still lower than it was in the first three months of 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2008 — all low crime years.

This is an important point; comparing two data points will never provide you with the big picture.

To compare, back in late December/early January, we saw stories (which inevitably got posted here) about how there had been such a massive increase in felonious killings of LEOs compared to 2008. What those stories generally failed to mention was that 2008 saw a remarkably low number of LEO killings, and the death toll for 2009 was actually lower than that for 2007, and indeed below the average for the preceding ten years.

Public perception of safety isn't a very reliable guide either. Both criminologists and psychologists have pointed out that people perceive incidence of crime as cumulative; we don't consider that we heard or read about fewer crimes in the past year than in the year before, say, but rather, we add every new crime we hear about to the stack of crimes we've heard or read of throughout our lives, so that there always seems to be more crime.

We'll just have to wait and see whether this is a trend, though given that methods of policing played a large role in NYC's reduction in crime, having fewer cops does seem likely to affect the crime rate.

[divideandconquer]

10. One of the most embarrassing things about being an American is our lack of gun control

If a rough and tumble nation like Australia can have strong gun control, it just show what wussies Americans are to put up with the sicko gun culture that seems to spearhead much of reichwing populism. I remember an interview with Japanese youths about gun control and they thought American were selfish and self centered and didn't think about the greater good. I think it's a vestige of when we stole this land at gunpoint fair and square, it's in the back of every white guys mind that it can be stole back.

[PavePusher]

11. Yeah, and because Australia has such strong gun laws...

crime never happens there.

Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

[divideandconquer]

13. America has by far the highest murder rate of advanced nations, Proud to be beaten by India?

<http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita>

[spin]

19. Violent crime in the UK is MUCH higher than in the U.S...

UK Most Violent Nation in Europe
By GEORGE PASCOE-WATSON
Political Editor

Published: 02 Jul 2009

BRITAIN was officially named Europe’s most violent nation last night.

We also suffer more violence than people in the US or even SOUTH AFRICA, figures show.

A shocking 2,034 per 100,000 people suffer violent crime in the UK, compared to 466 in America and 1,609 in troublespot South Africa.

Britain’s damning figures far outstrip those of second-worst EU country — Austria, with 1,677 violent crimes per 100,000 people.

And the UK rate has increased by a shocking 77 per cent since 1998.

The numbers were released by the European Commission.

Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2512514/UK-is-most-violent-nation-in-Europe-and-is-worse-than-US.html#ixzz0kuzUU04P

The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.
By James Slack
Last updated at 12:14 AM on 3rd July 2009

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html#ixzz0kuk8Khm1


Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed.

Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.

***snip***

The figures, compiled from reports released by the European Commission and United Nations, also show:

* The UK has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU.
* It has a higher homicide rate than most of our western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain.
* The UK has the fifth highest robbery rate in the EU.
* It has the fourth highest burglary rate and the highest absolute number of burglaries in the EU, with double the number of offences than recorded in Germany and France.

But it is the naming of Britain as the most violent country in the EU that is most shocking. The analysis is based on the number of crimes per 100,000 residents.

In the UK, there are 2,034 offences per 100,000 people, way ahead of second-placed Austria with a rate of 1,677.

The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 92 and South Africa 1,609.emphasis added



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html#ixzz0kujMXbdg

[divideandconquer]

23. So Australia also has 5 times less violent crime than the USA!

The UK's problem is that they don't put bad guys in jail.

[spin]

25. Concentrating on getting criminals off the street ...

is always a good idea.

But another good idea is to educate people so that they can get good jobs and then create those good jobs for people to work at.

Legalizing some drugs might also be an approach to reducing crime.

Lots of stuff can be done to lower the crime rate even though it has been falling.

[Euromutt]

40. The UK has the highest incarceration rate in western Europe

With the exception of Luxembourg, that is

The British prison population has quadrupled in the past 60 years (from 20,000 to 80,000), while the general population increased by less than 25%. Between 1995 and 2007, it increased 60%. But it's still not enough; overcrowding is acute, and has been for years, and some prisoners are being released up to 18 days early to make room for new convicts.

So, no, the UK's problem is most emphatically not "that they don't put bad guys in jail."

[Euromutt]

81. Recently, yes; ten years ago, no

Crime figures change, which affects comparisons. According to the 2000 International Crime Victims Survey (http://rechten.uvt.nl/icvs/pdffiles/Industr2000a.pdf), the percentage of respondents who had become the victim of a "contact crime" (robbery, sexual assault or physical assault) in 1999 was over twice as high in Australia (4.1%) as in the United States (1.9%). Now, nonfatal violent crime in the United States hasn't increased since then, but nonfatal violent crime in Australia--and in other countries--dropped. By the next ICVS in 2004, the percentage of respondents who had fallen victim to robbery had dropped by 25%, and the percentage who had fallen victim to physical assault had dropped by 40%.

Thing is, you can't credit the Australian National Firearms Agreement with this drop, because the "buybacks" took place in 1996-97. So something else must have caused the drop in Australian violent crime.

[friendly_iconoclast]

27. I guess Russia doesn't exist in this dojo? They have a murder rate higher than the US

Please, if you are going to try to fudge the truth to make an ideological point- don't make it so obvious, hmm?

It just makes you look desperate.

[Euromutt]

38. As do many other former Soviet republics

Even the ones that are EU member states now.

[divideandconquer]

45. Proud to compare yourself to the ex Soviet Union?

It's sickening how low the Rbka crowd will sink to make our FAILED gun policy look good, most of the nations with higher murder rates are nations under construction or involved in the process of civil war of some sort. I guess there will always be Rwanda.

[Euromutt]

49. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania have been EU member states for six years

Well, come May 1st they will have, anyway. The fact that they have done so means that they met the "Copenhagen criteria" for EU membership back in 2003 (when the treaty of accession was signed), which makes them considerably more than countries "under construction."

My impression is being steadily reinforced that you're essentially wielding a "no true Scotsman" fallacy (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#scots), in that you consider having a homicide rate that's higher than the United States' to be a disqualifying characteristic of an "advanced nation."

So when you assert that the United States has "the highest murder rate of advanced nations," what you're actually saying is that the United States has a higher murder rate than certain countries that you've selected on the basis that they have lower murder rates than the United States does. The fact that this makes your assertion a tautology, and thus essentially meaningless, is less important than the fact that you're evidently unwilling to own up to this fact.

[divideandconquer]

110. With a $8800 per capita GDP, Latvia and Lithuania are closer to Mexico than Japan

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gdp_percap-economy-gdp-per-capita

[cowman]

50. It's RKBA

AS in RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. How do you expect to be taken seriously if you can't even get that right?

[friendly_iconoclast]

102. Proud to use deceit to promote your agenda?

Mustn't let those damnable facts interfere with the propagation of the faith, eh brother?

[krispos42]

90. Can you explain the green line then?

How is it that the UK, which has been sharply increasing gun-control laws since 1989 (retroactively,too... all guns must be retrofitted to meet new legal requirements. No grandfathering) can have homicide rates going up, while the US has been going down?


I believe it's because of the superior social institutions in Europe. Those other industrialize nations you're speaking of also have things like universal health insurance, more mandatory paid time off, more family leave, better and more education that is typically free or nearly so, etc.


Given a choice between the Dems spending political capital on a new assault weapons ban or on legalizing marijuana, I'll pick the pot every time because that will do far more social good than fretting about if a gun has both a bayonet luy AND a flash surpressor.

[shadowrider]

17. Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

--SNORT--

[Callisto32]

12. I bet the right to not have the police walk into your house "wheneverthehell"

would be talked about the same way by many Japanese.

[spin]

14. One of the great things about being an American is RKBA ...

Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms.... The right of the citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America but which historically has proven to always be possible. -- Sen. Hubert Humphrey (1960)
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/sigs/rkbasigs.html

It's great to live in a country where the government trusts citizens to own firearms.

[cowman]

16. One of the most admirable things about our nation

is the freedom of law abiding citizens to own and carry guns.
There, I fixed it for you

[divideandconquer]

21. RBKA is despicable and is a cornerstone of the lack of morality in America

I guess that's one good thing when Asia takes over this place.

[oneshooter]

24. It is RKBA, please get it right. n/t

[friendly_iconoclast]

28. Why is it the extremists of all types always decry the "lack of morality"

The teabggers bitch about gays and socialists. You bitch about guns.

[divideandconquer]

34. The highest murder rate of advanced nations is an actual sin, not political BS

It sickens me that many of my fellow Americans just gloss over this or even take some perverse pride in it.

[Euromutt]

46. What do you mean by "advanced nations"?

Because I have this sneaking suspicion that that term, by your definition, excludes any country with a higher homicide rate than the United States'. Which renders the comparison meaningless.

Are Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania "advanced nations"? They are EU member states. And if not, why not? Because they have higher homicide rates than the US?

[friendly_iconoclast]

103. It sickens me that you are repeating the same untruth again, after being caught at it before

Then again, moralizers don't usually let concepts like 'verifiable fact' slow them down very much...

[cowman]

29. You can't even get it

right. Face it, the gun control issue is dead and your side lost, BooHoo.
Here, let me correct your statement

RKBA is one of the cornerstones of a free America.
Sounds much better

[divideandconquer]

35. The rest of the civilized world agrees with the gun control side

America stands out in exception to many of the great advances of mankind such as national healthcare and social safety nets, elimination of the death penalty, elimination of land mines, effective regulation of food and drugs, etc.

Time is on our side as Texas gradually goes California, Pennsylvania is being over run by New Jersey,Virginia becomes Marylandized, the nation becomes less white and rural populations shrink.

[cowman]

42. Who gives a shit

what the rest of the 'civilized world agrees with".
I'm damn proud that I live in a country that trusts its citizens to own and carry guns.

Where the hell do you get the idea that TX is going the way of CA?
Face it, more and more states are relaxing their gun laws, not tightening them.
Your side has lost the gun control issue and I sure as hell don't see the congress rushing to enact new gun laws
Too bad so sad for you

[divideandconquer]

55. I don't need a crutch and proudly walk without hiding one on my person like some sneak.

[cowman]

70. Whatever you say dude

[PavePusher]

80. I generally Open Carry everywhere I go.

Since by definition I'm not a "sneak", what am I, in your exaulted opinion?

[Euromutt]

60. By those criteria, Japan isn't part of "the civilized world" either

Social safety net practically non-existent, death penalty carried out at a comparable rate to the United States' (in terms of percentage of people convicted for murder executed), all victims of domestic murder-suicides counted as suicides, brutal and corrupt police force, judiciary that invariably sides with the prosecution... you really need to do more research on other countries before you hold them up as some shining example for the United States to emulate.

[spin]

68. America started to stand out in the world when we rebelled ...

and we stood out even more when we passed the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

No, we are not like every other nation, nor should we be.

[X_Digger]

69. Texas goes California?!?

BWAH!! Pull the other one, it plays yankee doodle.

[tburnsten]

79. All of your examples are of states that are successful

being "overrun", in your words, by states that are shitting the bed.

You are telling me that the home of the war on drugs does not have "effective regulation of food and drugs"? WHere are you getting that from?

There are crimes that any sane person would agree deserve the death penalty. As a matter of course, for your run of the mill crimes, of course not, but incidents like the one in which the woman drowned her three young children, what sort of penalty could ever adequately cover that?

[Euromutt]

85. You know why "the civilized world" adopted gun control?

Because their governments were afraid of being overthrown in leftist revolutions. Most western European countries adopted stringent gun control shortly after the end of World War I, when their governments were faced with large numbers of demobilized troops with a legitimate grudge against their governments' handling of the past five years, and the idea that maybe those guys in Russia and Germany had the right idea overthrowing their governments. Italy came a bit later, because Mussolini didn't want any leftists to be able to mount an armed revolt against his Fascist regime.

In short, the governments of "the civilized world" for the most part adopted gun control not to protect their citizens, but to protect themselves from their citizens. Public safety, when invoked, was simply a fig leaf. The United States was a comparative rarity in that the government evidently felt that its citizens would be satisfied to resolve any issues through the ballot box, rather than by force.

[tburnsten]

93. And with the exception of the Battle of Athens, Tennessee, we have

The civil war, I don't know whether to include that or not, since it was almost a hundred years before the rise of all the wonderful gun prohibitions that some are holding up.


And the Battle of Athens was to secure a large group of veteran's right to vote, which was being supressed by a posse of good 'ole boys.

[spin]

32. Exaggerate much?

a "cornerstone of the lack of morality in America"?

Wow!

How do you measure morality and determine if it is increasing or decreasing? Do you judge it on the number of people who go to church or the honesty of all the people?

Perhaps you could use crime rates. If so, morality is actually increasing.

FBI Report: Crime, Murder Rate Dropped in First Half of 2009

Crime fell 4.4 percent nationwide in the first half of 2009 with the murder rate dropping a startling 10 percent, according to statistics released Monday by the FBI. The decline in murders is one of the more significant one-time decreases in recent memory, according to some criminologists.

Crime rates have been dropping since 2007, following a run up in violent crime during the middle part of the decade. FBI figures for 2005 showed that violent crime had increased 2.5 percent overall, one of the largest percentage increases in 15 years. Overall crime in the United States increased 3.7 percent in 2006.

***snip***

Are We Becoming Less Violent

A drop in crime in major cities is likely what is influencing the national numbers. In Washington, D.C., for example, the murder rate fell to its lowest in the last two decades. This year to date there have been 135 homicides in the district compared with 183 at this time last year, a 26 percent drop. New York City had 440 murders compared with 497 a year earlier, a decline of 11.5 percent. In Los Angeles for the year the murder rate is down 19 percent.

Violent crime and aggravated assault decreased in major cities with over 1 million residents, dropping 7 percent and 6.2 percent, respectively.
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/fbi-report-crime-murder-rate-dropping-half-2009/story?id=9391627&page=2

And this happened during the time frame when gun sales were skyrocketing.

Gun Sales Continue to Soar in 2009

Washington, DC --(AmmoLand.com)- Data released by the FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) reported 1,074,757 checks in August 2009, a 12.3 percent increase from the 956,872 reported in August 2008.

So far that is roughly 9,076,205 gun bought this year! The total is probably more as NICS background checks may cover the purchase of more than one gun at a time.

This latest jump in background checks show that Americans are solidly in-favor of keeping firearms in the hands of law abiding citizens and clearly shows that proponents claiming the USA wants more gun control are blatantly wrong.

Gun Owners Say No to Gun Conrtol with their Wallets
The increased trend of Americans buying firearms at a record pace was once thought to be a one time fluke caused by fears of the new Obama administration expressed lust for more gun control. But now 10 months in and the wrongly named “fear buying” has now become the norm as law abiding US citizen exercise their constitutional right to keep and bear firearms by the millions every month with no sign of slowing down.

The bulk of the buying has been concentrated on the following types of guns or calibers:

* Semi Auto Handguns
* Revolvers
* Ar15s and all variants of the Black Rifle
* .50 Caliber

1.17 Guns for Each Person
Conservative estimates of legally owned guns in the USA put the number at 355,029,250 million guns in the USA. That is 1.17 guns for everyone in the USA and if you listen to the liberal press they are all assault weapons. God bless anyone who tries to invade the USA…

Crime Rates Falling
The most stunning in all of this is that we have not seen an increase in crime, murder rates have fallen across most of the USA and Americans have shown that they can be trusted with firearms ownership. This is directly in contrast to what the national media and gun control supporters would have us believe.
http://www.ammoland.com/2009/09/04/1000000-guns-added-to-american-homes/

Maybe MORE GUNS = MORE MORALITY. Obviously if the crime rate is falling at the same time that gun sales are soaring than either guns have little to do with morality or they increase it.



The Asians might have a hard time taking over our country by force if we continue to have RKBA.

Remember it was Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto of the Japanese Navy who said,

"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

[divideandconquer]

37. Foreigners and multinationals will soon own this country lock stock and barrel thanks to teabaggers

The government isn't scared one bit of your guns, just an excuse to buy more sophisticated weapons.

[spin]

67. They may own it ... but they won't occupy it. (n/t)

[divideandconquer]

109. That's what the Native Americans thought

[spin]

112. Had the native American population not been decimated...

by the diseases the settlers carried, they would have been able to resist much longer and might have prevailed.

In 1965, American anthropologist Henry Dobyns published studies estimating the original population at 10 to 12 million. By 1983, however, he increased his estimates to 18 million.<36> He took into account the mortality rates caused by infectious diseases of European explorers and settlers, against which Native Americans had no natural immunity. Dobyns combined the known mortality rates of these diseases among native people with reliable population records of the 19th century, to calculate the probable size of the original populations.<3><4>

Chicken pox and measles, although by this time endemic and rarely fatal among Europeans (long after being introduced from Asia), often proved deadly to Native Americans. Smallpox proved particularly fatal to Native American populations.<37> Epidemics often immediately followed European exploration and sometimes destroyed entire village populations. While precise figures are difficult to determine, some historians estimate that up to 80% of some Native populations died after first contact due to Eurasian infectious diseases.<38> One theory of Columbian exchange suggests explorers from the Christopher Columbus expedition contracted syphilis from indigenous peoples and carried it back to Europe, where it spread widely.<39> Other researchers believe that the disease existed in Europe and Asia before Columbus and his men returned from exposure to indigenous peoples of the Americas, but that they brought back a more virulent form. (See Syphilis.)

In 1618–1619, smallpox wiped out 90% of the Massachusetts Bay Native Americans.<40> Historians believe many Mohawk Native Americans in present-day New York were infected after contact with children of Dutch traders in Albany in 1634. The disease swept through Mohawk villages, reaching Native Americans at Lake Ontario by 1636, and the lands of the western Iroquois by 1679, as it was carried by Mohawk and other Native Americans who traveled the trading routes.<41> The high rate of fatalities caused breakdowns in Native American societies and disrupted generational exchanges of culture.

***snip***

After European explorers reached the West Coast in the 1770s, smallpox rapidly killed at least 30% of Northwest Coast Native Americans. For the next 80 to 100 years, smallpox and other diseases devastated native populations in the region.<42> Puget Sound area populations, once estimated as high as 37,000 people, were reduced to only 9,000 survivors by the time settlers arrived en masse in the mid-19th century.<43> The Spanish missions in California significantly reduced the Population of Native American Californians.

Smallpox epidemics in 1780–1782 and 1837–1838 brought devastation and drastic depopulation among the Plains Indians.<44><45> By 1832, the federal government established a smallpox vaccination program for Native Americans (The Indian Vaccination Act of 1832). It was the first federal program created to address a health problem of Native Americans.<46><47>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United_States

[Euromutt]

116. One quibble: "decimated" means 10% killed

The term comes from Roman times; a legion that had performed disgracefully in battle was decimated, i.e. one man in ten was executed. The effect of European-introduced disease on the Native Americans was reverse decimation, in that it killed 90% of the pre-existing population. And, in fact, it had already done so before the English landed at Jamestown or Plymouth Rock; the diseases had spread from the Spanish settlements in present-day Mexico.

[spin]

120. Good point! (n/t)

[cowman]

43. He also said

I fear we have awakened a sleeping giant

[friendly_iconoclast]

33. Odd coming from someone whose avatar is Willie Nelson playing a gunfighter...

In "Barbarossa", if I'm not mistaken.

Got cognitive dissonance?

[divideandconquer]

39. Maybe you should check out Willie's website, bet you don't like it

http://willienelsonpri.com/


Here's an excerpt:

Does this sound like your Land Of The Free And The Home Of The Brave?

Life, Property and Personal Security
China reports that criminality in America is rampant, high crime rates threatening

“lives, properties and personal security,”

including in 2009:

4.9 million violent crimes;
16.3 million property ones;
an epidemic of gun violence;
30,000 gun-related deaths;
14 million arrests (except traffic violations);
15,000 murders (mostly against the poor);
thousands of violent school incidents; and more.

[friendly_iconoclast]

104. I like Willie just fine, but the plural of 'anecdote' *still* ain't 'data'...

You've already rocked the faith-promoting rumors, and now you're going for the argument by authority?

Since gun control is losing ground, the controllers are reduced to attempting to gin up moral panics...

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

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[cowman]

18. BTW

who gives a fuck what Japanese youths think of us except maybe you

[friendly_iconoclast]

30. Japanese people also kill themselves at a far higher rate than Americans...

...mostly without guns. And they have a level of open racism that would embarass George Wallace. Sure you want to offer them up as role models?

BTW, I think your antecdote qualifies as coming from what Terry Pratchett called the University Of What Some Bloke In A Pub Told Me.

[Euromutt]

36. Japan? The country where 95% of people arrested end up confessing (whether they did it or not)?

That's a fucking great example.

If you're arrested in Japan, you can be held for 72 hours before you even get access to a lawyer. If a judge signs off on it (which they invariably do), you can be held for 20 days beyond that before they even have to charge you. During those 23 days, you can be questioned without your lawyer present, and without the "interview" being recorded. As a result, it's not surprising that 95% of arrestees end up signing a confession, and a suspiciously large number of people die in police custody.

But I supposed it's just "selfish and self centered" of me, and I'm failing to think of the greater good, to opine that there might be something wrong about the police torturing (yes, torturing) confessions out of detainees because they and the public prosecutors are too fucking incompetent to gather the evidence needed to get a conviction (which means, incidentally, that hard cases like yakuza members can readily escape conviction by resisting the beatings and refusing to confess). And I'm not thinking of the greater good when I find it abhorrent that the judiciary not only tolerates but condones this behavior. And I suppose I'm not thinking of the greater good when I find it utterly disgusting that Yukio Hatoyama, the current prime minister of Japan, said while he was minister of justice that presumption of innocence is "an idea I want to constrain." Or that the justice ministry conducts executions in such secrecy that most Japanese don't even know when and where executions are carried out, or that hanging is the method used.

Yeah, I guess it's just "selfish and self centered" of us Americans that we're not prepared to live in a police state for the benefit of "the greater good."

[divideandconquer]

41. The USA with the world's largest prison population has no room to criticize

Poor people in America also have a hard time getting out of jail since they can't afford lawyers. Many Americans who can afford lawyers are forced to plea bargain.

[cowman]

44. As my 8 year old granddaughter would say

blah blah blah, whatever dude

[divideandconquer]

47. Hope your 8 year old isn't hit by a stray bullet, happens all the time! 92k hits on Google

Seven-year-old River Ridge girl killed by stray bullet | New ...
Nov 9, 2009 ... A shootout early Sunday morning sent stray bullets piercing walls and .... An defenseless innocent Child killed/murdered while safely asleep ...
www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2009/11/post_66.html - Cached
Child Shot, Killed in Church By Stray Bullet - WSB News on ...
Jan 1, 2010 ... Child Shot, Killed in Church By Stray Bullet ... A bullet came through the roof the building and hit four-year-old Marquel Peters in the ...
wsbradio.com/localnews/2010/.../child-shot-killed-in-church-by.html - Cached
4-year-old killed by celebratory bullet | ajc.com
Jan 1, 2010 ... Four-year-old Marquel Peters was killed by a stray bullet during a New ... Marquel was transported by ambulance to Children's Healthcare of ...
www.ajc.com/news/dekalb/4-year-old-killed-264602.html - Cached
Minivan Struck By Stray Bullet During Freeway Shooting, Child ...
Apr 11, 2010 ... A minivan driving along Highway 99 was struck and hit by stray bullet with a family inside of it.
www.fox40.com/news/.../ktxl-news-minivanshooting,0,7622253.story - Cached
Suspect Charged in Stray Bullet that Struck a Child - KTVI
Mar 29, 2010 ... Little Boy Recovering After Hit In Face By Stray Bullet ... 2010, which left a two year old child with a bullet lodged below his left eye. ...
www.fox2now.com/.../ktvi-suspect-charged-in-child-shot-032910,0,1381037 .story - Cached
Woman With Children Hit by Stray Bullet - Los Angeles Times
Apr 8, 1989 ... A woman passer-by pushing a baby stroller was accidentally shot in the arm Friday by suspected gang members who opened fire on a passing car ...
articles.latimes.com/1989-04-08/local/me-1194_1_stray-bullet - Cached
Idaho man hit by stray bullet in Yakima dies - KHQ Right Now ...
(AP) - A 20-year-old Idaho man is dead after being hit by a stray bullet in Yakima. ... Spokane police: missing mom & children spotted in Portland ...
www.khq.com/global/story.asp?s=12251959
4 children hit by stray bullets in Binondo | The Philippine Star ...
Jan 27, 2009 ... Four children were hit by stray bullets when two men shot at each other reportedly over the control of illegal electric connections in ...
www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleid=435010 - Cached
4 year old struck by stray bullet in church dies
Jan 3, 2010 ... Tags : child shot and killed in church, four year old hit by stray bullet in church, georgia, innocent bystanders, marquel peters, sad, ...
www.inquisitr.com/.../4-year-old-struck-by-stray-bullet-in-church-dies/ - Cached
Child hit by stray bullet from celebratory gunfire | Breaking News ...
Child hit by stray bullet from celebratory gunfire. By Casandra Andrews. January 01, 2009, 11:32AM. Mobile, Ala. -- A 7-year-old girl was taken to the ...
blog.al.com/live/2009/01/child_hit_by_stray_bullet_rele.html - Cached

<http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=children+hit+by+stray+bullets&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8>

[cowman]

48. Doesn't happen all the time

matter of fact, incidents of accidental shootings are declining in the U.S..
Nice try, but, FAIL
BTW, usually the stray bullet is by a criminal who is forbidden by law to own or possess a firearm not by a law abiding citizen.
I've had a CHL for many years now and my gun has never fired a stray bullet, you seem to equate all gun owners as cowboys who sooner or later will commit a crime, answer me this, what is the problem with law abiding citizens owning and legally carrying a gun?

[divideandconquer]

52. They're law abiding till till they threaten or kill their wives, co-workers, etc

Hey, it's a crutch for the weak. I was talking to a RBKAer the other day who was asked to leave CARMAX cause he had a gun on his hip, he was so offended, It was pathetic. I have to give CARMAX credit for having the balls to throw this teabagging weirdo out of their showroom.

My personal experience with hundreds of gun owners is that they are bad people, someone to keep children away from.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

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[cowman]

58. It's a crutch for the weak

So now your an internet psychiatrist.
For me, it's to give me a chance to defend myself if some asshole of a criminal leaves me absolutely no other option. You may not like that but thats your problem not mine and quite frankly, I don't give a s**t what you think of me having a CHL.

[cowman]

71. I think you are telling an untruth

when you say you know hundreds of gun owners.

[friendly_iconoclast]

105. They've already told another one in this thread- and repeated it.

Mustn't let truth impede the Glorious Cause, y'know.

[Euromutt]

72. Except for the ones who DON'T "threaten or kill their spouses, co-workers, etc."

Even by the most conservative estimates, there are 35 million households in the United States. Even assuming there's a single gun owner in each household, at current homicide rates, it would take well over 2,000 years for every current gun owner in American to each kill one person other than themselves. Very simply, over 99% of gun owners will never use a firearm to inflict unlawful violence on another person.

The notion that even a significant amount, let alone a majority, of homicides are committed by people "who would have been considered law-abiding up to the moment they pulled the trigger" is a fiction. In reality, 75-80% of homicides are committed by persons with prior felony convictions as adult, another 10-15% are committed by people who turn out to have prior histories of violence.

If you factor out those homicides in which the perpetrator and/or the victim are young, black, urban males, the American homicide rate would actually be fairly unremarkable. What's so special about young, black, urban males? They're the demographic most likely, due to socio-economic factors, to be tempted into the illegal drug trade, where they quickly learn that the most effective form of "conflict resolution" is to kill the other guy.

[krispos42]

91. Everybody is law-abiding until they're not

We had our little "experiment" with an administration that felt the other way about things.


We live our entires lives forced to trust that the anonymous strangers around us will act in a certain way. We do it when driving, walking, working, etc. Even sleeping.

So out of the thousands of times a day you trust absolute strangers to act in a normal and predicable way, you're getting upset about one particular type?

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

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[tburnsten]

96. Two of those are adults, one from 1989,

two of them in inherently illegal and wrong incidents, such as "accidentally shot in the arm Friday by suspected gang members who opened fire on a passing car ..." and "two men shot at each other reportedly over the control of illegal electric connections in ...", and by the way, how the fuck is a gang shooting "accidental"?

[friendly_iconoclast]

106. The plural form of 'anecdote' still fails to be 'data' n/t

[Euromutt]

78. Fortunately for me, I'm not "the USA"

I am one naturalized American citizen, and also a card-carrying member of both the ACLU and Human Rights Watch. Personally, I deplore the fact that the American criminal justice and penal systems are focused primarily on punishment by incarceration, with next to no attention paid to rehabilitating offenders after (or instead of) locking them up.

But the ugly aspects of the American criminal justice system, undeniable as they are, do not excuse the substantial faults of the Japanese one. You certainly don't get to brush them off after you've held up the Japanese as someone for Americans to emulate. There is, frankly, very little about Japanese government, culture and society that I find worthy of emulation, and suborning individual liberties to the "greater good" certainly isn't one of those aspects.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

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[cowman]

56. Riiiiiiiiiiight

Then why did Nancy Pelosi basically tell Eric Holder to STFU when he said that the Obama admin wanted to make permanent the AWB? And why did she also say that congress was not contemplating new gun control laws, that the laws on the books were sufficient?
Keep dreaming that pipe dream.
I'll give you credit, you keep making up facts.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cowman]

59. Uh huh

you just keep believing that because I don't really give a s**t what you think of me and I'm pretty sure the rest of us don't either.
I do go to gun shows quite often, not that I need your permission.

[Euromutt]

73. Y'all let us know when you have something substantial to add to the discussion

And when y'all are done circle-jerking over what superior specimens of humanity you are.

[proteus_lives]

77. I'm loving your racism in this thread.

You are so predictable.

It's no wonder your side always loses.

[divideandconquer]

111. Yeah, those Indians must be better than Americans to have less murder

I guess the Congressional Black Caucus is also racist? :rofl:

[proteus_lives]

113. Your comment was deleted.

Take a moment to be ashamed of yourself for your ignorance and stereotypes.

[Euromutt]

61. How soon is "soon"?

Because I predict that ten years from now, the "big comeback" will have failed to materialize, and you'll still be going "any day now, really."

[slackmaster]

63. Maybe sooner than the South rising again

http://www.theonion.com/articles/south-postpones-rising-again-for-yet-another-year,377/

[slackmaster]

62. YES! Right after bell-bottom slacks, cold fusion, Disco, and Poodle Skirts

[cowman]

64. I gotta say

that demagogues like these 2 really show the true face of the gun control non-movement. With spokespersons like them, I truly believe we have nothing to worry about

[jazzhound]

65. Have to respectfully disagree with my good colleague cowman in saying

that they definitely constitute a "movement". And much like the "movement" I flush every morning, their "movement" is getting flushed by the U.S. public.

[cowman]

66. Your analogy

is so much better than mine. I'll go with yours.

[proteus_lives]

76. Don't take that crystal ball to a casino.

:rofl:

Most Americans aren't like you. We don't want to give up our rights.

[jeepnstein]

86. What people?

I don't see it.

The people doing the bulk of the killing and dying are engaged in an illegal industry where contracts are negotiated at gun point. It's accepted as a lifestyle, glamorized by the media, and enabled by family members who rely on the easy money. Gangs, drugs, and poverty are enemy here.

You would throw my Constitutional Rights in the toilet to try to skirt around the real issue.

[krispos42]

92. Our homicide rate is down 40% from 1990, and holding steady.

There's a difference between actual bloodshed and the media hysteria that surrounds it.

[proteus_lives]

74. That's ignorant.

What about the millions who immigrated later and didn't steal shit?

"I remember an interview with Japanese youths about gun control and they thought American were selfish and self centered and didn't think about the greater good."

I consider that high praise. The ant-like conformity demanded by Japanese culture is disgusting.

Like or not American culture is about the individual and I would have it no other way.

And of course you take the coward's way out, blaming inanimate objects for human actions.

[pipoman]

101. So do these

upstanding Japanese yutes you speak of consume whale products? Do they live in a country which still hunts and kills whales? They do? Who is selfish I ask you? Who? Pot meet Kettle..

Japanese youths about gun control and they thought American were selfish and self centered and didn't think about the greater good

Damn...

[Warren Stupidity]

82. "Homicides are up nearly 22 percent in 2010, compared with the same period last year"

And the gun laws haven't changed at all. Consequently we can rule out NYC's gun laws as a factor. But you knew that, right?

[shadowrider]

83. I never said they could or couldn't be ruled out

All I said was homicides are up nearly 22 percent, and NY'ers do not have the ability to defend themselves.

Nothing more, nothing less.

[Warren Stupidity]

88. At least be honest enough to not hide your intentions.

[Warren Stupidity]

94. Oh that is not "all I said".

You also said: "Crime goes up when innocent people are unable to defend themselves." and that is unsubstantiated bullshit.

[shadowrider]

95. You have your opinion

I have mine. The two don't meet. No harm, no foul.

[Warren Stupidity]

97. You are entitled to your opinion. On the other hand the facts are what they are.

And gun control is not a factor in NYC's crime rate. That is a fact and not an opinion. Your statement to the contrary is not an opinion, it is an assertion of facts not in evidence. That makes it bullshit.

[shadowrider]

98. I'm trying to leave well enough alone, ok?

My opinion has not and will not change as yours won't. No harm, no foul.

[Warren Stupidity]

99. You are trying to avoid the facts.

You first claimed you made no assertions about the relationship to gun control and crime rates. The facts are you did, you clearly asserted that they were related. You are now attempting to weasel out of that by claiming this is merely an opinion and not an assertion of fact. The facts are that NYC's crime rate since 1911 is independent of its gun control laws, having gone up and down considerably while those laws have been in effect over the last 100 years. An increase cannot be blamed on gun control laws that haven't changed. That is not an opinion, that is simply a fact.

[Euromutt]

84. That cuts both ways, though

If (and that's a big "if") this turns out to be a trend, rather than a blip, then it's a trend that NYC's (by American standards) stringent gun laws will have failed to prevent from occurring.

By the same token, the reduction in crime that NYC saw in the late 1990s cannot be credited to its gun laws either, since those didn't change during that period either.

[Warren Stupidity]

87. NYC's crime rate has varied a lot over the last 100 years.

1911 - Sullivan Act. That is when strict gun control went into effect. So yes indeed, strict gun control neither deters nor encourages crime, at least not in NYC. It seems that economic conditions, demographics and other factors are drivers of crime, not gun control nor everyone armed like its the OK Corral.

Despite the OP, the trend for crime rates over the last ten years has been down, not up.

[jazzhound]

115. So if you admit this..........

"Despite the OP, the trend for crime rates over the last ten years has been down, not up."

How do you explain the fact that violent crime is on a steady DECLINE while gun ownership is on a steady INCLINE? Same for gun-related accidents, btw --- DECLINING as the gun stock INCLINES.

[Warren Stupidity]

118. NYC is the subject here.

Gun ownership is insignificant and uncorrelated with crime. Nice try at changing the subject though. Always a good idea when the OP is total bullshit.

[jazzhound]

119. Nice try at ducking responsibility for opening the door re. a broader

and more important discussion. Threads have been known move from their original subject, and my intent was NOT to change the subject. But as long as you and I agree that trying to control violent crime by restricting the national gun stock is worthless, I guess I can live with your scolding.

"Gun ownership is insignificant and uncorrelated with crime."

Have yourself a lovely day! :-)

[Warren Stupidity]

121. As long as you and I agree that trying to control crime

by having everyone walking around armed and dangerous is worthless, I guess I can live with your attempt to get off of a topic that was an embarrassing mistake by one of your friends.

The crime rate in NYC is independent of gun control laws.

[shadowrider]

122. It wasn't an embarrassing mistake

People in New York are unable to defend themselves from crime because they're unable to carry.

What is the mistake in that statement?

[Warren Stupidity]

123. The OP attempted to correlate the crime rate with gun control.

"The point would be Crime goes up when innocent people are unable to defend themselves." - the OP in response to what the point of his OP was.

That was an embarrassing mistake, as I pointed out. Google "Ceteris paribus" if you don't understand why, and then consider why NYC is a very interesting data point.

Then we have the tangential argument, also brought up in this thread, that you uttered above: "People in New York are unable to defend themselves from crime because they're unable to carry."

a) of course they can defend themselves, they just can't legally use a gun to do so unless they have a permit.
b) the implication, uttered by somebody here, being that people in NYC are being hurt physically by NYC's gun control laws. I've asked for the data that demonstrates that assertion, and in response I got ...


Note that I am not a proponent of strict gun control. I don't think the data justifies it. I am however opposed first of all to Total Bullshit, such as this OP, and secondly to the idiocy of advocating that we all walk around ready for a gunfight.