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Avigdor Lieberman: Israel should press to join NATO, EU

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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 06:57 AM
Original message
Avigdor Lieberman: Israel should press to join NATO, EU
From Ha'aretz:

Cabinet minister Avigdor Lieberman said Monday that Israel should work actively toward joining NATO and the European Union.

"Israel's diplomatic and security goal ... must be clear: joining NATO and entering the European Union."

According to Lieberman, "The war we are waging in the Middle East is not a war of the state of Israel alone, it is a war of the entire free world, and we are situated on the front lines."

--snip--


  Somebody wants Article V protection. Somebody's not gonna get it. Interestingly, if it wasn't for America's vis a vis Bush's response to 9/11, Israel's choice of targets in the attack on Lebanon and firing on NATO member states who had sent ships and aircraft in afterward, along with their penchant for turning flouting international and humanitarian law into an art form (though Vaudevillian), why, I think they would have had a pretty easy time getting it.

"Missed it by that much!"

PB
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Kutjara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
1. That, and the fact that Israel is neither in Europe nor...
...particularly close to the North Atlantic.

They do compete in the Eurovision song contest, though, so I suppose anything is possible.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
2. Somehow I don't think Israel would want to be a member of the EU...
That would involve handing over some sovereignty and would mean open borders with other EU countries. Though I guess that knowing that Israel would have an even harder time of it joining the EU than Turkey makes it easy to make noises about wanting to join :)
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
3. Do tell, PB...why shouldn't Israel join the EU or NATO?
Oh wait...maybe they should join the UN's country grouping? Oh that's right...they can't! It is the same thing that has kept them from being a part of the UNSC. So, why shouldn't they join a group, no matter where their physical location?
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I didn't say they shouldn't. I said they wouldn't. 8^)
Edited on Mon Jan-01-07 08:47 AM by Poll_Blind
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Not what **I** asked!
Try again! This time, try without the propaganda.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. En Vogue has been called many things, but propaganda?
I agree classifying it as R&B is maybe a stretch, but still...

PB
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
7. Why should they belong to either organization?
They are not a European nation, not even a peripheral one like Turkey is. They're Middle Eastern. Their future security ultimately lies in forming workable, peaceful ties with their neighbors. This is their neighborhood and they need to come to terms with that fact.

And they sure as hell wouldn't be let in with someone like Lieberman at the helm.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. The US and Canada are both founding members of NATO
Neither is a European nation.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I think they were referring mainly to the EU...
Edited on Tue Jan-02-07 06:44 AM by Violet_Crumble
Geographically, Israel's not part of Europe, nor is it part of the Atlantic region that makes up NATO, though of course the whole purpose of the creation of NATO was the Cold War era need of the superpowers to bring other countries in under their umbrellas with such protection treaties. After reading Article V, I can understand why Lieberman would be pretty keen to get into NATO...

"The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all. Consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defense recognized by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Of course he wouldn't have thought about the fact that the treaty has only been invoked once in response to September 11, and was not invoked after the Madrid or London bombings....

Personally I don't think Lieberman should stop at wanting to join the EU or NATO. There are other international organisations or treaties that he'll discover Israel hasn't gotten round to trying to join yet, like the Commonwealth of Nations, ANZUS, or ASEAN ;)
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Actually, there is some talk of Israel joining the Commonwealth
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/12/17/wmid117.xml

Whether any Israeli leaders want to join is another matter. When relations between member countries are good, it's an extra-friendly diplomatic club; but when they're not, it's just a bit of masochism for a country to turn up to a meeting and get criticised. But Israel does have the qualification for joining, having come from a British mandate.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-03-07 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #14
31. Another country for Australia to totally flog at the Commonwealth Games..hurray! n/t
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-03-07 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. A little friendly competition never hurt anyone. nt
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-03-07 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. When it comes to sport there is no such thing as friendly!
We invented sledging!

;)
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-03-07 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. What is that? I've been to Australia and I think you are a pretty friendly bunch.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-03-07 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. Sledging...
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. *sigh*
North Atlantic Treaty Organization = NATO

Last time I checked, both Canada and the USA have the Atlantic Ocean on the border.

That being said, there are other countries in NATO that do not have the Atlantic on their shores, but they have signed on and must comply with a series of Treaty agreements. Complying with those agreements is where the belly-laugh comes from vis-a-vis Israel.

Complying with the more stringent EU regulations is cause for out and out guffaws.

((Of course Israel seeks all the benefits with none of the restrictions. So transparent is the attempt that some will progress to convulsive, tear-streaked laughter.))
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Was responding to another post
The post I was responding to:

"Why should they belong to either organization?

They are not a European nation, not even a peripheral one like Turkey is."

Just pointing out that not all members of NATO are European nations.

Do you think that if Israel reaches a peace agreement with the Palestinians that leads to a withdrawal from the Occupied Territories and the establishment of mutually recognized borders that Israel would then be a realistic candidate for NATO and EU membership?
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. In answer to your question:
No, not a realistic candidate for NATO. There still remains the ratification of the 4th Geneva Convention (and I'm sure even more requirements beyond that).

As for the EU, that would be up to the EU (as a US citizen, my opinion on EU membership is close to worthless). However, the requirements for EU membership far exceed those of NATO.

I won't even get into the differences in what Israel defines as "occupied territories" and what the rest of the world does.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Israel already ratified the 4th Geneva Convention
Presumably, once Israel reaches a peace agreement with the Palestinians that leads to a withdrawal from the Occupied Territories and the establishment of mutually recognized borders then concerns over it's application to the Occupied Territories would be moot.

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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. "requirements beyond that"
Would include (but not be limited to) actually observing the Geneva 4th Convention.

Those who question Israeli acceptance into NATO really need to learn more about NATO. I worked for the organization for 6 years and the cross-treaties are quite extensive.

Is it possible? Yes, albeit slightly.

Is it likely? No.

Less likely with the EU given the requirements.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-03-07 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Would you say that the United States
is actually observing the Geneva 4th Convention?



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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-03-07 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Doesn't the US get the big Get Out Of Jail Free card on that?
It created NATO, so unlike every other country it doesn't have to observe anything if it doesn't want to. It sucks, but that seems to be how the world works...
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-03-07 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. Not sure what that has to do with the topic...
which is expressed clearly in the title of this thread.

The US is already in NATO (as a founding member) and has no intentions on joining the EU.

As to US violations of the 4th Geneva Convention, those are discussed at length in the LBN and GD forums, in addition to other forums.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-03-07 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. NATO
My comment on the US and it's behavior vis-a-vis the Geneva Conventions was meant to challenge the notion that NATO actually requires that all member states implement those Conventions.

It seems strange to me that an organization could deny membership to another country for violating the 4th Geneva Convention when one of the primary founding members appears to be currently violating that same Convention itself.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-03-07 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #27
36. From 2001;
As an eg of illustrating that Israel does not respect the 4th Geneva Convention.

Israel: Respect of Fourth Geneva Convention must be ensured by High Contracting Parties meeting in Geneva

GENEVA -- On the eve of the fourth Conference of High Contracting Parties to the 1949 Geneva Convention, Amnesty International welcomed the reaffirmation of the principles of the Fourth Geneva Convention contained in the Declaration placed before the High Contracting Parties, but called on High Contracting Parties urgently to carry out their obligation under Article 1 "to respect and to ensure respect" of the Convention.

"Reaffirmation of the principles defined for the protection of civilian populations in time of war is an important move but it is not enough," said Amnesty International. "By ratifying the Conventions, each High Contracting Party has solemnly agreed to ensure that these principles are respected."

"The High Contracting Parties must now agree on concrete measures to ensure respect for the Convention and prevent further deterioration of the human rights situation in the Occupied Territories," the organization added.

The Declaration which the High Contracting Parties are expected to agree upon reaffirms the principles of the Fourth Geneva Convention. In particular:

* It reaffirms the applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention to the Occupied Palestinian Territory including East Jerusalem.

* The High Contracting Parties express "deep concern at the deteriorating humanitarian situation in the field. They deplore the great number of civilian victims, in particular children and other vulnerable groups, due to indiscriminate or disproportionate use of force and due to lack of respect for international humanitarian law".

* It calls on the Occupying Power (Israel) to "immediately refrain from committing grave breaches involving any of the acts committed under art. 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, such as wilful killing, torture, unlawful deportation, wilful deprivation of the rights of fair and regular trial, extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly".

* It repeats the obligation on High Contracting Parties under Article 146 of the Convention to enact effective penal sanctions for persons who have committed, or ordered, "grave breaches" of the Convention.

* It calls "upon the Occupying Power to refrain from perpetrating other violations of the Convention, in particular reprisals against protected persons and their property, collective penalties, unjustified restrictions to free movement, and to treat protected persons humanely, without any adverse distinctions founded on race, colour, religion or faith..."


The declaration also reaffirms the "illegality of settlements" and the "need to safeguard and guarantee the rights and access of all inhabitants to the Holy Places" in Jerusalem.


http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE151082001

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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. They both border the North Atlantic. n/t
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
8. Why? Because a majority of Israeli citizens are descendants of recent
European refugees versus centuries of people of the land, so to speak?
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #8
39. if they are European refugees
does this mean they don't have a historical claim to Israel afterall? Hmmm....
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
9. I love it when Israel tries to make their problems, our problems.
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UndertheOcean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
10. Seeing how much difficulty Turkey is facing despite having land in Europe..
mainly because of how it is treating the Kurds , and denying the Armenian Genocide. It will take centuries for Israel to join based on its deeds to the Palestinians.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. It will take centuries for Israel to join based on its deeds to the Palestinians?
If only Israel demonstrated the kind of devotion to human rights exhibited throughout the 20th century by NATO members like France, Germany, Britain, and the US.
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UndertheOcean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. Yes , if only ...
we are talking of course of the times after 1948
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
15. Why shouldn't the last remaining European colony in the Middle East not join NATO?
That's is the real message that Lieberman is sending!

For those that say that Iraq was an artificial construct of Western colonialism, the same argument can be made about Israel.

Israel should accept the fact that it is a Middle Eastern nation and that as such, it should make peace with her neighbors and withdraw from all occupied lands.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I totally agree.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. That's some powerful bullshit.
Israel is not a European colony. As for Western colonialism, almost the entire Middle East and most of Africa fall into that category!

Your last sentence is almost comical, but not unexpected. Here's a thought: the Middle East should accept the fact that Israel is a Middle Eastern nation, and as such, should be treated as they wish to be treated. Peace is a two-way street, yet so many seem to forget that little pesky fact.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Well, there you go...
"Middle East should accept the fact that Israel is a Middle Eastern nation"

So membership in NATO or the EU is an exercise in self-manipulation. Does that still cause blindness or just hairy palms?
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. And yet, since that hasn't happened in 60 some years...
...it is not surprising that Israel would look to other places for membership.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. You reap what you sow.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. True...and what have other ME nations been reaping?!
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