No wonder Hamas isn’t scared

[shira]

No wonder Hamas isn’t scared

Despite his claims, Goldstone didn’t hold Hamas accountable for terror

Jonathan Dahoah Halevi Published: 10.21.09, 10:51 / Israel Opinion

<snip>

Reading the Goldstone Report shows that Ismail Haniyeh’s interpretation was correct. The Hamas de-facto administration and its leaders are never accused of responsibility for terrorism and firing rockets. Rather, nebulous “Palestinian armed groups” are responsible. The theme is repeated in the report’s few references to Palestinian terrorism. For example, Paragraph 1747, page 541, reads “In relation to the firing of rockets and mortars into Southern Israel by Palestinian armed groups operating in the Gaza Strip, the Mission finds that the Palestinian armed groups fail to distinguish between military targets and the civilian population and civilian objects in Southern Israel. The launching of rockets and mortars which cannot be aimed with sufficient precisions at military targets breaches the fundamental principle of distinction. Where there is no intended military target and the rockets and mortars are launched into civilian areas, they constitute a deliberate attack against the civilian population. These actions would constitute war crimes and may amount to crimes against humanity.”

The Hamas de-facto administration in the Gaza Strip received nothing but respect from the Goldstone Committee, which never mentioned it was an Islamist, fascist, terrorist organization, that it supported the murder of the Jews in “Palestine” (by burning, according to one Hamas leader), threw rival Fatah supporters off roofs and shot them in the knee, had taken over the administrative institutions of the Gaza Strip in a military bloodbath and were currently imposing on the Gaza Strip Islamic law (the Sharia), with its binding restrictions on women and with its gross, blatant disregard for basic human rights.

<snip>

Moreover, the Hamas de-facto administration and its leadership boast of their responsibility for the rocket and terrorist attacks against Israel and have even documented them in a “victory album” of videotapes on their websites.

It does not seem that ignorance was responsible for the way the Goldstone Committee ignored the direct connection between Hamas and “Palestinian armed groups.” It is a fair assumption that its bias was deliberate and that the Committee’s curious methodology no less than its “ignorance” were behind the way it took statements from Palestinian “eyewitnesses” failing to ask basic questions on terrorist activities during the war.

<snip>

more...
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3793009,00.html

[clear eye]

1. Working peace negotiations will need both sides held accountable

as a reality base to begin on.

Wish I could recommend this post.

[shira]

2. I wonder whether Goldstone read this report.....Hamas sure did.

How is it that Goldstone wanted Hamas held accountable but never condemned them even once throughout the entire report?

Did he ever read this report for himself?

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shira]

5. Here's what Goldstone said just a few days ago...

"This draft resolution saddens me as it includes only allegations against Israel," AFP quoted Goldstone as telling Swiss newspaper Le Temps prior to Friday's vote.

"There is not a single phrase condemning Hamas as we have done in the report. I hope that the council can modify the text," Goldstone reportedly said.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1255694826451&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

It's as if Goldstone expected the UN to condemn Hamas, as he said his commission did in the report.

But Goldstone's report never condemns Hamas.

So the question is, does Goldstone know what's in his report?

And it's not just the Ynet author saying so...

"It was all Palestinian factions who launched projectiles,” Abu Marzouq said, “including Fatah,” indicating that the report does not single out Hamas.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=233817

Can you find anything in the report that singles out and condemns Hamas?

[azurnoir]

8. what was "reportedly" or claimed to have been said

is not the report itself the same is true for whatever UN resolution comes out of this

[shira]

13. so now Goldstone may not have said that? come on now.

And you're okay with the report not condemning Hamas for any war crimes?

What kind of report are you backing that doesn't expect any change for the better from Hamas?

Can you at the very least admit that all news reports claiming Goldstone condemned Hamas are all wrong?

[azurnoir]

17. Are you prescient Shira?

LOL you are disingenuous as usual, you want need are desparate for something to "get" Justice Goldstone for so you'll screech that Hamas was not directly named in the report there for the report was all about Israel, that is lie plain and simple as AI's link show the report condemned Palestinian Armed Groups for war crimes which would include Hamas but is more broad as Hamas is not the only group involved , would you have preferred that Hamas was the only group named? My guess is you would shreik about too.

Trying to argue this only shows how craven the attempts to smear Goldstone are

[azurnoir]

19. Shira I will retract my original comment

the Goldstone report may not have specified Hamas but it did condemn the attacks on Israel by Palestinian groups of which Hamas is only one, I do not however quite understand your seeming lack of concern about other groups that have attacked Israel or was your comment simply meant to imply that the Goldstone report condemned only Israel and not the Palestinians?

[azurnoir]

4. From AI USA

Key findings of the UN-mandated international independent fact-finding mission led by Justice Richard Goldstone:

• Israeli forces committed violations of human rights and international humanitarian law amounting to war crimes and some possibly amounting to crimes against humanity. Notably, investigations into numerous instances of lethal attacks on civilians and civilian objects revealed that the attacks were intentional, that some were launched with the intention of spreading terror among the civilian population and with no justifiable military objective and that Israeli forces used Palestinian civilians as human shields.
• Israeli forces committed grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention, notably wilful killing, torture and inhumane treatment, wilfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health, and extensive destruction of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly. As grave breaches these acts give rise to individual criminal responsibility.
• Israel violated its duty to respect the right of Gaza’s population to an adequate standard of living, including access to adequate food, water and housing. Notably acts which deprive Palestinians in Gaza of their means of sustenance, employment, housing and water, that deny their freedom of movement and their right to leave and enter their own country, that limit their access to an effective remedy and could amount to persecution - a crime against humanity.
• Palestinian armed groups violated the principle of distinction by launching rocket and mortars attacks which cannot be aimed with sufficient precision at military targets and that their attacks into civilian areas which had no intended military target constituted deliberate attacks against civilians. Such attacks constitute war crimes and may amount to crimes against humanity.
• Palestinian combatants did not always adequately distinguish themselves from he civilian population and they unnecessarily exposed civilians to danger when they launched attacks close to civilian or protected buildings.
• The Fact-Finding Mission found no evidence that Palestinian armed groups directed civilians to areas where attacks were launched or that they forced civilians to remain within their vicinity, nor that hospital facilities were used by the Hamas de-facto administration or by Palestinian armed groups to shield military activities, or that ambulances were used to transport combatants, or that Palestinian armed groups engaged in combat activities from within hospitals or UN facilities that were used as shelters.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?id=ENGNAU2009091


the reason that the statements read "Palestinian armed groups" rather than Hamas is that there are and were more groups than just Hamas involved in the rocket and mortar fire the statement that Goldstone did not condemn Hamas is "sleight of hand" misdirection at best

[shira]

6. Goldstone expected the UN resolution to condemn Hamas, not some vague Palestinian groups

Everyone who knows anything about the Gaza war knows it was Hamas vs. Israel.

Hamas runs the Gaza strip and is responsible for what they boast about doing against Israel. Hamas decided not to renew the "ceasefire". Hamas declared war via 'Operation Oil Slick'.

[azurnoir]

7. Changing the goalpost are we?

your statement pertained to the report it self not claims concerning a UN resolution that has as of yet to be released

[shira]

14. not at all...Goldstone was quoted as being upset that not one line condemning Hamas appeared in...

...the UN resolution.

Why should he be upset since there wasn't one line in his 500 page report condemning Hamas?

[Recursion]

29. Er.. most of the rockets were Al Aqsa-affiliated

Though this may just be part of the larger problem that many Israelis see all Palestinians (or even all Arabs) as one big homogeneous group.

[pelsar]

9. quite the opposite....

when the reports writes " armed groups" its a nice trick (an old one though) to remove any one specific body for the responsibility of the shooting. "armed groups" are anonymous.


hamas has shown that they infact do control "the armed groups"....have you noticed that after the invasion there is almost no firing on israel?.....Hamas the governing body obviously decided that it prefers to have their borders open than have israel close them, hence the order to stop the firing. (and of course when threatened by an internal group, they just wipe them out as we saw a month ago).

the "trickery" removes the governing body called hamas from being responsible...its pretty standard though, one sees it with the posts here on the DU, an inability to give the Palestinians leadership responsibility for their actions be it fatah, the PA or hamas.

[azurnoir]

10. Pffft

is Hamas an armed group? was Hamas the only group involved in the rocket attacks?

[pelsar]

11. hamas is the governing body....

as they have proven time an time again.....and they have brigades, and a complete military structure with command and control......and they also have the affiliates that they also control (as they have proven so clearly now).

And they had coordinated attacks, like an army.....

But by naming hamas as the responsible group.....thats against what i have discovered as rule no 1: NEVER give the Palestinian leadership responsibility for any action....one sees that here on the DU a lot.

[azurnoir]

12. that is a strawman claim at best

while Hamas is the ruling party in Gaza they are not the only militia operating there and do not have complete control over all parties, something you have admitted yourself
the report in no way exonerates Hamas it in fact places blame all around

[shira]

16. HRW disagrees with you and is in agreement with Pelsar....see article in post #15

[azurnoir]

18. HRW called on Hamas to investigate itself

not the other groups involved, so can we now take it that for some reason your OK with IJ or other smaller groups shooting kassams at Israel you just really do not seem all too concerned with that

I stated my case in post #4 you can continue to argue this with yourself if you wish post what "challenges" you please

[shira]

23. HRW realizes Hamas controls Gaza and all minor factions who fire rockets at Israel....you don't.

[azurnoir]

24. if that were true then HRW would be

asking Hamas to investigate more than just itself, but I do understand your inability to separate one Palestinian group from another

[pelsar]

25. consistency thats the key.....

a governing body is expected to be responsible for all those under it....hence when the settlers go on a rampage, the calls are for the israeli govt to investigate their doings..when a specific unit in the IDF screws up, the IDF or israeli govt is called upon to investigate. No one cares "which unit" or which settler subgroup....they are the responsibility of the israeli govt.

that is how HRW and others view hamas...they are de facto the governing body of Gaza, not just in name, but in the everyday lives. More so, when an armed faction defied hamas last month...hamas attacked and killed them in their mosque.....making their point that they have no patience for those that defy them.

for further proof, we have the lull, before the invasion, that was based on the agreement between hamas and israel,....and it was kept by all of the hamas sub groups.....more so for further proof the lack of kassams being shot these days is once again because hamas has made it clear they want the borders open. (Islamic jihad is more extreme than hamas).

so it appears the vague, non responsible "Palestinians armed groups" now have an address in gaza, the gaza governing body called hamas, who dont seem to interested in following the program that allows israel to be blamed for everything.

keep watching eventually it will become more and more clearer to even you who controls gaza as hamas continues to exert their power.

[shira]

26. you're playing the Arafat shell game....and that won't fly

Arafat used to claim he was on board with peace but couldn't control the terror factions. It was 'them', not him. Fatah was too weak to control them. It was 'their' fault, not his fault.

That was complete bullshit and many bought into it.

As for HRW's view of Hamas, it's the same as their view of the Israeli govt.....Israel cannot claim to not have control over its extremists. Neither can Hamas in Gaza. Imagine Israel playing the Arafat shell game with excuses that their extremists cannot be controlled, so it's not Israel's fault, etc.

Israel has responsibility.

So does Hamas in Gaza.

[azurnoir]

27. Sometimes what is conviently called a shell game

is simply the truth

but I do find it quite humorous that here you are promoting HRW on this thread while trashing them on another, I actually thought Pelsar was trying to save you that bit of embarrassment

I will answer your comment about Israels control of its "extremeists" when you define exactly who you referring to as extremest

[shira]

28. so Hamas really can't control the rockets from IJ, Fatah, Al-Qassam Brigades, etc.?

and I'm not promoting HRW.....just showing the contradiction.

Even HRW is not so brazen as to deny that Hamas runs Gaza and is in total command there. Everyone knows this is the case and recognizes Hamas as the power there, not IJ or PFLP, Hamas, Al-Qassam brigades, etc. Hamas made the 'truce' with Israel and decided to break it, not those other groups.

As extremists go, you probably believe any Israeli leader who acts in self-defense against Hamas is an extremist....but I'd say some settlers are examples of extremists who harm Palestinians and the Israeli govt. is responsible for reigning them in.

[pelsar]

20. ignoring the evidence yet again?

this so reminds me of the "israel controls the gaza/egyptian border argument, that went on for months until it was quite impossible to keep it up, with egypt opening and closing at will....(or perhaps you still believe israel controls that border?)

hamas is no longer a "miltia" (which indicates someone else governs)...they are the governing body (did you miss that?)....which bit of proof are you missing to accept that?.....and once again the lack of kassams following the invasion, the lack of kassams during the lull period that hamas agreed to, indicates that hamas does infact control gaza and those within.

eventually...as time goes on, and hamas continues to exert control, make agreements accept responsibility for the attacks, you'll be in the same exact position you are with the gaza/egyptian border.....preferring the view you would like (keeping any Palestinians leadership from any responsibility) to the actual evidence on the ground....

[azurnoir]

21. Oh you mean the argument where

you kept claiming that people (me for instance} were saying that Israel controlled the Rafah crossing when infact I said it had to with politics, that argument? But I digress the truth is that because Gaza is not a sovereign country Hamas is still a militia not an official military and you have used the argument that Hamas does not have complete control to deny their right to negitiate or reach agreements with Israel in the past

as to my position on the Egypt border your statements as to what I said are quite false but I will give the benefit of a doubt perhaps you are confusing me with someone else, we "leftists" are used to being to that sort of thing you know kind of like "I can't tell them apart, they all look the same to me"

Now as events develop the status of Gaza and Hamas will change something that will hardly leave me in a spot, your view of situation seems to be that the situation is static rather than dynamic

[pelsar]

22. dates....and events.....they change with time...

when the PA was in control, hamas was a militia.....now that hamas has kicked out the PA and they govern, they are in fact the government. They control the money, they control the attacks and defense, they have a foreign policy......they tax the resident, etc. All the trappings of a government are now within the hands of hamas...... that makes them the de facto government.

true, many believe one shouldn't accept, acknowledge the hamas as governement, perhaps you are one of them. It is a legit argument..but thats nothing more than philosophy. On the ground, hamas rules with an iron fist, including roadblocks, curfews, etc.

you can believe otherwise...but eventually as the news leaks out slowly others who either dont know or dont want to know, may have to accept that ugly fact that not only does hamas govern in gaza but worse of all, they accept the responsibility for what happens in gaza.....(i like hamas, they have an honesty that was lacking in the PA).

[kixt3550]

30. So true

[shira]

15. Human Rights Watch calls Hamas to investigate own war crimes

Human Rights Watch calls Hamas to investigate own war crimes

In letter sent to Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, human rights group calls Hamas to take responsibility for its own laws of war violations during Operation Cast Lead, conduct investigation according to Goldstone Report recommendations.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3793198,00.html

==========

Looks like in addition to Goldstone, HRW didn't read the 500 page report either.

That report, contrary to HRW's claim, does not recommend Hamas investigate any of their own war crimes since it never once singles Hamas out and condemns them for anything.

:eyes:

[xc8mip]

31. Trying to survive ghetto siege is not a crime

The only one being exterminated are Palestinians.I guess it's quite easy today to spot a liar

[shira]

33. lol....yes, your post makes it easy to spot a liar

[Jefferson23]

32. Goldtstone interview:

BILL MOYERS: Were those rocket attacks on Israel a threat to the civilians of Israel, to the population of Israel?

RICHARD GOLDSTONE: Absolutely. The people within the range of those rockets and mortars in southern Israel and Sderot and Ashkelon have been living under circumstances of tremendous terror. Schoolchildren in particular, people, women and men, have less than 45 seconds to seek shelter when the Israelis know that rockets are coming. And often, they don’t. And the fact that the death toll in southern Israel wasn’t higher, is really happenstance. It’s remarkable that none of those rockets caused a great deal more death and injury than they did.

BILL MOYERS: And Israel, in your judgment, was justified in trying to put an end to those rocket attacks-

RICHARD GOLDSTONE: Absolutely. No country can be expected to accept that with equanimity.


http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/moyers-interviews-goldstone-definitely-worth-reading/

Shameful beyond belief how Goldstone is being smeared, and when is the WH going to get back to him about those "flaws" he asked them to send him...hmm

[shira]

34. here are goldstone's flaws....there are many and this is for those interested in facts, not fiction

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x288006#288244

posts #13,24,25

[Jefferson23]

35. So, are you telling me that this is what the WH should/will/might

submit to the gentleman as the flaws they claim in Goldtsone's report?

I read your posts btw.

[shira]

36. if the WH submits anything, there's no question it will be similar to this criticism that Goldstone

...has failed to respond to.

[Jefferson23]

37. If the WH submits what you have presented here to Goldstone, I'll eat my hat.