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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 09:12 PM
Original message
Anti-Semitism among Left and Right grows in Germany
Dismissal of "Holocaust-denying" DJ illustrates new hybrid of Jew-hatred; "Ken was speaking to hearts of majority of listeners - a scary thought," media expert says.

BERLIN - The German publicly funded radio station RBB's decision in late November to dismiss Ken Jebsen, a well-known leftist radio host who denied the Holocaust occurred and bashed Israel, has brought to the fore a growing expression of hybrid anti-Semitism in the Federal Republic.

A telling example of where the intersection of right-wing, left-wing and Islamic anti-Semitism unfolds is the annual pro-al-Quds day rally in Berlin.

German radio host: Holocaust invented as PR

Jochen Feilcke, the head of the German- Israeli Friendship Society in Berlin and Potsdam, has remarked about the al-Quds demonstration that Once again, the participation of neo-Nazis and other sympathizers of the mullah regime is expected and their goal is clear: Expressions of solidarity with the Palestinians will be used as agitation against Israel, the only free democracy in the Middle East.

The al-Quds demonstration has been an annual event in Berlin since 1996 and advocates the destruction of the Jewish state. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini established al-Quds Day in 1979 and it is now marked in the Islamic Republic and throughout the Arab world by calling for the abolition of Israel.

The neo-Nazi German Peoples Party (DVU) a sister party of the far-right National Democratic Party (NPD) pushed its supporters to attend the al- Quds event. Jrgen Elssser, a leftist journalist, urged German leftists to march with the pro-Iran regime activists.

German experts in the field of contemporary anti-Semitism define the phenomenon as Querfront anti-Semitism, which roughly translates as crossover.

The fusion of hate ideologies coalesces the radical left and extreme right with fanatical Islamism.

Jebsen declared in an e-mail in November that I know who invented the Holocaust as PR and has said that there should be a Yad Vashem in Palestine to commemorate the Palestinian victims who were murdered through Israels occupation.

Jebsen termed the September 11 attacks in the US to be a terror-lie and chalked up the Islamic-animated terror acts to an American-based conspiracy.

Germany, for Jebsen, is a vassal of the United States.
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 09:13 PM
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1. This antisemitism is probably a result of the occupation !
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 10:00 PM
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Ha Ha
That post is funny.

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holdencaufield Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. "They see themselves..."
Who you callin' "they", Sparky?

How do you know precisely how I see myself? I for one am NEVER a victim.

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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. The OP was about antisemitism in Germany, not Palestine
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 05:09 AM by LeftishBrit
While some people in Germany may use actions by Israel as an excuse, they are hardly the cause of the behaviour of German extremists (like loony Jebsen), neo-Nazis and racist skinhead types.

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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 03:47 AM
Response to Original message
4. The dj SHOULD have been dismissed.
Nobody here would disagree with that.

Jebsen is a lunatic.
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. The OP ws NOT just about Jebsen
It shows how the extreme left and extreme right unite in hatred of Jews.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. very few people on the left would fit THAT definition of "extreme left"
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 06:50 PM by Ken Burch
and the rest of us on the left condemn them.

It isn't "hatred of Jews" to oppose the West Bank Occupation, the siege of Gaza, or the settlements, though. Agreed?
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holdencaufield Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. No more than...
... it would be considered Islamophobia to revile suicide bombers, attacks on Israel civilians,and constant attempts at the de-legitimization of the Jewish State.

However, you have to ask yourself, why is that that conflict that doesn't even measure in the top 10 of current world conflicts as far as casualties are concerned and doesn't REALLY have any chance of global or even regional destabilization receives so much attention?

Why is this conflict different from all other conflict?
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Did you MEAN to phrase that last question
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 08:04 PM by Ken Burch
as a twisted variant of the first question asked during a Passover seder?


And no, you can't seriously arguing that people are only offended at Israel's treatment of Palestinians because of the religion and varieties of cultures Israel claims to represent.

There are many reasons people are concerned with this issue-including the growing numbers of people in the world's Jewish communities who are challenging what the Israeli government is doing in the West Bank and in its military actions towards Gaza.

It serves no purpose to pretend that this whole thing is about antisemitism. And it also essentially means abandoning any hope of their ever BEING peace to pretend that it's just down to that.

Yes, Palestinians and Arabs have exhibited antisemitism(although no Arab had anything to do with the European crime of the Holocaust-even the Grand Mufti, bastard among bastards that he was, was simply shooting off his mouth. Hitler and his acolytes of death would have done everything they did even if Haj Amin Al-Husayni-I'm deferring to Shira's preferred spelling here, I think-had never drawn breath.

The issue, I think for a lot of people, is this:

Why should people A(the Palestinians)have had to suffer for what people B(European Christians)did to people C(European Jewry)?
Israel's always going to exist...but the injustices done to innocent people in the name of this existence, justified as it is, need to be acknowledged, apologized for, and compensated in whatever means they can be. Doing that doesn't have to jeopardize Israel's existence in the slightest.

Admitting that Palestinians who hadn't done anything wrong were, in fact, forced out of their homes does NOT mean saying that Israel shouldn't exist. It simply means admitting that those people had just as deep a connection to that land as those who settled after them.

And, yes, these things happened in other countries prior to this, but standing up for Palestinians now is about saying "yes, we've learned from the past, and we won't let injustice be repeated when we see it happening before our eyes".

I still remember you mentioning that your zayde(grandfather)suffered at the hands of Arabs. I'm sorry that he did-he shouldn't have had to suffer. Nor should anyone else. But the answer to suffering in the past is NOT to inflict suffering in the future.

And at the same time your zayde suffered, the zaydes of Palestinians who are your age suffered needlessly at the hands of at least some of the Zionist forces-unarmed, noncombatant grandparents were killed at Deir Yassin, for example.

So there was pain on both sides. And there are people on the Palestinian side who still grieve their losses as you still grieve yours.

The way to avenge your grandfather is to work for a better world and a just, peaceful ending to this dispute-NOT to punish people who were too young to have done anything to him-and not to insist on the impossible goal of "winning". This conflict CAN'T be won-it can only be ended.

You're too young, if that picture in your profile is any indication, to let your life be ruled by hatred. And you'll be letting those who attacked your grandfather win in the end. Don't give them that victory.
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holdencaufield Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. I'm not sure...
... how you got all that from what I said or how that even actually answers my question. I never mentioned the "A-word", or the Holocaust, or any other historical conflict.

However, I'm asking a question that is "Why, with all the CURRENT (not historical conflicts) in the world going on right now that incur significantly more loss of life than the IP conflict does the IP conflict take precedence over them?"

What is it that motivates people to become antagonistic to the point of apoplexy about the IP conflict but remain ambivalent or agnostic to Sudan, Syria, Yemen, Mexico or any of the other Top Ten ongoing military conflicts? The IP isn't even in the top 10 for 2010/2011, so what do YOU think motivates all the vitriol about THIS particular conflict? I have my own theory, I'm keen to hear someone else's. You don't have to reach into antiquity to see injustice being done -- it's taking place right now all over the world in much greater numbers than what's happening in the IP conflict.

I don't know what the Holocaust has to do with the IP Conflict -- is it your contention that Israel came about only because of the Holocaust and not because of agreements for a Jewish Homeland in Palestine dating back to 1917?

Is it your contention that the Palestinian Arabs ONLY suffer because of Israel? That they didn't suffer under the occupation of Egypt/Jordan -- or the Ottoman's before that? Is it only when the Jews showed up that they began to suffer?

I don't know where you saw me say that I'm looking to avenge anyone. Israel is a country, as legitimate as any other country on the planet -- more legitimate than others. I'm sure that an eventual agreement will take place between the Palestinian Arabs and Israel -- but, it won't happen at the point of a sword, it will happen when the PA's decide that they have no chance of destroying Israel and bargain in good faith for what they can get. Frankly -- I don't think they should expect much after four decades of unrelenting guerrilla warfare against Israel, but I'm sure the Israel people are nicer than those in most countries.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. As to your last paragraph, I had you confused with "King David" for a moment
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 12:31 AM by Ken Burch
He'd mentioned what happened to his grandfather. Apologies for that confusion.

What I took your question to mean was an effort to try to get me to agree that the whole thing is driven by antisemitism. I don't accept that it is. There's some, and that needs to be fought, but that's not the reason for the whole thing. And to dismiss it as being just that is to take a totally defeatist view of any chances of ending the conflict.

Some people are driven to anger by it, in my view, because they've learned about the subjugation of peoples in the past and want to stop it in the present.

Others, in this country, are driven to focus on this because of the massive military aid the U.S. gives to Israel, and don't want their tax monies going to what they see as oppression.

Others see what's happening in the West Bank as something that violates their own sense of morality.

And, while the Balfour Declaration was cited to justify Israel's creation(even though it only said "a national home", not "The national home", and even though it ALSO said "nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country") it was the Holocaust that was used, in the end, to get approval of Israel's creation through the UN.

(A real historical question remains about the Declaration, btw: When it was issued, the lands that would later become Palestine and Israel were NOT part of the British Empire-they were still under the control of the Ottoman Empire. Did the British government actually have any right at all to dictate what should be done with those lands? Wasn't Balfour displaying some major chutzpah in even writing that letter?)

The Holocaust was a massively horrific event in human history-but it was the work of European Christians, not Palestinian Arabs. It should have been European Christians who paid the major price for it. If there needed to be a state, then there needed to be some real effort to find people AMONG THE PALESTINIANS themselves who could be part of the negotiations.

And yes, Palestinians did suffer under Egyptian and Jordanian rule of their lands...but that suffering never included dislocation. It needs to be acknowledged that a lot of people WERE driven away from their homes, and that many of these people did nothing whatsoever to deserve that fate. Acknowledging that would not jeopardize Israel's security or its chances of survival, and would do a lot to diffuse tensions and reduce the ability of extremists among the Palestinian community to recruit for their cause.

You're right that an agreement won't come at the point of a sword-but that means the point of a sword on EITHER side. That is why so many of us oppose the Occupation of the West Bank and the siege of Gaza. Palestinians can't win this militarily...neither can can only end in a compromise of some sort. And that compromise can only be reached if both sides are negotiating as equals and neither is under duress.
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. HUH ? no you mixed up myself with your make belive fabricated friend nt
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. No. You posted a response to my post
I then posted back, Holden posted after that and for some reason I thought he was you.

It was an honest mix-up. NO offense intended.

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