Young Israeli settlers wage 'war of olives'

[La_Serpiente]

Young Israeli settlers wage 'war of olives'

Hilltop youths step up 'war of olives' against West Bank Palestinians who are harvesting only fear, hatred.

Ibrahim picks up one of the sawed off olive branches which litter his steep hillside grove in Sawiya. "A symbol of peace," he says sarcastically, pointing to the homes of the Jewish settlers who destroyed his trees.

Three days earlier, groups of armed young settlers poured down from the Eli settlement which straddles several hills on Sawiya's farmland and raided the grove, wrecking up to 200 trees with chainsaws and machetes.

"These olive trees are older than anybody I know can remember. These are not just trees, they are part of my family and my past," says the 36-year-old.

more...

Young Israeli settlers wage 'war of olives'

[mitchtv]

1. disgraceful

I will say no more- those trees have a right to live. may the punks that did it get their karmic rewards.

[Les Claypool]

2. Terrorism rears its ugly head...

:eyes:

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ex_jew]

4. Why is it a choice between dead trees and dead Jews ?

Were the trees a threat to the Jews ? Did their olives often land on Jewish heads and kill them ?

It appears that "dead Jews" is your only excuse for any form of misbehavior, even when the only Jews I read about are very much alive and destroying their neighbor's property.

[Jack Rabbit]

5. That's a red herring

One crime cannot be used to excuse the other.

What we have here is Israeli settlers vandalizing Palestinian property in a way to make it difficult for Palestinian farmers to make a living.

Tell me, Mr. Herschel, do you believe these vandals should be prosecuted? If so, under whose law? If so, what do you think a suitable sentence would be in the event they are convicted?

[Herschel]

6. You two

Certainly their mischief should be addressed. I was only expressing my wonder at these pranks being more quickly condemned than homicide bombings. I will leave it at that.

[Jack Rabbit]

7. Actually, I don't see it as being more quickly condemned

Both are an ongoing problem, but the terrorism against Israelis gets more press. In fairness, I think that has more to to do with a bombing being more dramatic than an act of vandalism than any bias in favor of Israelis over Palestinians. The act of the Israeli settlers is a less violent of terrorism than than the act of a suicide bomber, but it is still terrorism. The word "mischief" doesn't begin to cover it.

Let's not kid ourselves. Both suicide bombings and the vandalism of orchards are the work of extremists who desire to drive either Jews or Palestinians from the Levant. The cutting down of these trees is no more mere "mischief" than a suicide bombing in a Haifa cafe is the mere setting off of a firecracker. Just as the PA should be reining in those who send forth suicide bombers, so should the GOI be taking steps to rein in those who commit acts such as these.

[Herschel]

8. Begging your pardon

Comparing these pranks of the olive trees to homicide bombings is akin to comparing traffic violations to murder. Hopefully, we need not wonder why the killing of Jews is more noteworthy than the vandalism of trees! Oh, my.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

11. OH MY!

"There is a perimeter of several hundred metres (yards) around Eli which is basically off-limits," says Ibrahim, who estimates the losses caused by the settlers' attacks in the area to about 1,000 litres of olive oil or 30 percent of his annual production."

Does this sound like a prank to you? That's messing with someone's livelihood. It may not compare to blowing people up but it is very cynical to suggest it's just a prank. I wonder how impish you would consider someone setting your place of business on fire or some other "youthful prank" such as that.

Also isn't the term homicide bombers redundant? Suicide bombers blow themselves up with their victims. They're both fucked up. The Unabomber was a homicide bomber since he did not include himself in the blast. Words either have meaning or they don't. Why is that so hard to understand for you and Fox News?

[Herschel]

14. Homicide bombers is more appropriate

Their mission is to kill. Their own deaths are a welcome result, yet not their primary mission.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

15. Homicide is redundant since any bomber intends to commit murder.

It is a stupid term the Bushies came up with and nothing more. If I bomb your house I'm a (homicide) bomber. If I go along for the ride I'm suicidal. Again either words mean something or they don't.

[Herschel]

16. Their primary purpose is murder

Perhaps we should simply be glad for the fate they meet.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

18. Look up the definition of suicide then get back to me.

One more time they're bombers (killers) we get it. Do all "bombers" kil themselves in the process on purpose? No. Then they're suicide bombers. I'm sorry I don't subscribe to New Speak as dictated by the corrupt murdering white house. You seem to have problems understanding a very simple concept. But that's fine fundamentalism works in misterious ways. BTW "we" sounds like too many people I'm not glad when anyone dies or when they kill. Unlike you I don't consider sabotaging people's chances of earning a living while working the land as "pranks". That's just disgusting. I believe that was the priginal premise which you chose to ignore.

[Care Bear]

31. To quote you:

Do all bombers kill themselves in the process on purpose? No.


If they don't, they have not fulfilled their missions however. The idea is to die a martyr, go to paradise, and have the family left behind paid off.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

39. By committing suicide. What's so hard to understand about that word?

While you're at it you may also quote people that think destroying someone else's crops is just some type of prank.

[Care Bear]

42. They do not consider this to be

suicide themselves, so why can't you let them call it what they want. They wish to be shaheed (martyrs) and that does not have the same meaning as suicide. What's so hard to understand about that concept?

Referencing your text: please don't tell me what I think is a prank or not. You know nothing about my beliefs, but you certainly attacked me for no good reason!

[Herschel]

44. I wonder, my friend

why there is so mush resistance to the term homicide bomber. It describes exactly the action of the monsters that commit it - murder. Their fate, while gratifying, is secondary.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

46. It's not "resistance".

I just think it's silly and useless. Also considering how the whole term came about it's suspect automatically. Bush comes into office. He refuses to do anything about this whole situation and then gives us stupid redundant and repetitive terms. He, Rove, Fox and Ari Fleischer can all go ______ themselves for all I care. You can call it whatever you want I still think it's stupid.

[Herschel]

50. Very well

I will call it what it is - homicide. You may think what you like.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

52. Fair enough......

[Care Bear]

47. I understand, my friend,

that this is actually debated by some whom you would trust.

Please consult Mike Galos on why he believes the term suicide bomber is more apt.

Shalom.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

45. When you kill yourself it's suicide.

Let them call it what they want? I don't think they or anyone else other than Fox,The Bush White House and a few people here call it homicide bombing. Do they? I was questioning the poster above. It's a redundant silly concept made up because supposedly suicide would sound to sympathetic. It's nothing but more bullshit Karl Rove new speak. I don't care what people think they're doing. If you blow yourself up you're committing suicide, period. If you're killing others in the process with a bomb. You're a suicide bomber as opposed to a plain old bomber or murderer or whatever. By being called bombers the homicide part is already more than understood. You're right I don't know your "beliefs" nor would I probably care as much as you would care about mine. I was debating this guy for calling this bullshit some kind of prank. That's pretty fucked up right there. I suggest you read the threads before getting into it so you can get the whole context.

[Care Bear]

48. You are correct

in that they neither call it suicide nor homicide bombings.

They call it martyrdom as I said and consider it a great honor.

Please calm down; I'm worried about your blood pressure. Before you tell me not to bother, let me tell you not to proffer suggestions to me. Thank you.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Care Bear]

51. You were correct where I

wrote you were correct. Don't take it as a blanket statement please.

PEACE, SMIRKY BIN LADEN!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

53. Thanks very much again. Don't forget the W.

[Care Bear]

54. How can I?

I want him out of office so much I'm willing to vote for (holding my breath!) Kerry!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

55. Well, slap me around and call me Laura.

We may never agree on this whole I/P thing but there may actually be some agreement here.

[Care Bear]

56. I'm sure there is!

Please remember I/P is a gut issue for most of us. It causes many of us to come across in ways that drive you all nuts.

However, I am pro-union (haven't shopped in a locked-out store in nearly 5 months), anti-NAFTA, pro gay rights, pro women's rights, anti corporatism and believe we MUST have healthcare for all...and I ain't talking access, I mean healthcare!

:toast:

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

12. making a statement them blaming others for these words

You are not the only one who 'wonders' (seems a more and more common phrase around here - to 'wonder')

Your posts:

"You two
Certainly their mischief should be addressed. I was only expressing my wonder at these pranks being more quickly condemned than homicide bombings. I will leave it at that."

then

"Begging your pardon
Comparing these pranks of the olive trees to homicide bombings is akin to comparing traffic violations to murder. Hopefully, we need not wonder why the killing of Jews is more noteworthy than the vandalism of trees! Oh, my."

You brought up the 'homicide bombings' did you not?

You made the comparison, did you not?

then when you get the desired response ... more 'wonders' as to the motivations of posts

oh my indeed.

Bill

[Jack Rabbit]

17. Pranks?

Why do you insist on minimizing this issue? This is not on the order of a traffic violation, even when compared to a bombing. While a suicide bombing is a more heinous crime, this is still a matter of more concern than your language gives it.

While suicide bombing is far more revolting, these acts still have much in common:

1. They are acts of terrorism.
2. They are aimed at driving the targets away from their homes.
3. they are ineffective toward that aim.
4. The perpetrators are racists.

There is no defense of these acts. Prank and mischief are terms that are best used for decorating one's neighbor's front yard with toilet paper, not an attempt to drive a farmer off his land. To refer to such acts in terms of childish or adolescent misbehavior is offensive.

[Violet_Crumble]

19. There are times when it's not more henious than a suicide bombing...

Palestinians have been murdered in the past by settlers trying to drive them from their land during the olive picking season. In those cases, they're every bit as henious as suicide-bombings, and I'd love to hear anyone try to explain why they're not....

From B'Tselem...

"During the olive-picking season, in which many Palestinians are at work in the olive groves, violent groups of settlers increase their attacks on Palestinians. In these attacks, settlers fire at olive pickers, killing and wounding them, steal their crop, and destroy their trees."

http://www.btselem.org/english/Settlers_Violence/Settlers_Violence.asp


Violet...

[Jack Rabbit]

20. Thanks for the link

True, Palestinians farmers have been killed and wounded by these thugs. These are not pranks. This is not mischief. This is an attempt to drive people from their land.

[Herschel]

22. See here

I do not condone this vandalism. These young people have made a mistake. I do hope they get the proper guidance to avoid this type of activity in the future.

[Jack Rabbit]

25. Made a mistake?

The propeer guidance they need is ten to twenty at hard labor.

[Herschel]

27. Please!

Ten to twenty years at hard labor for vandalism by young people? Is this progressive? I think you know the answer.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jack Rabbit]

32. If would think it is harsh only if I thought it was simple vandalism

It isn't. This isn't mischief. It isn't a prank. This is more serious than a traffic violation.

These people did not teepee the farmers' front yard. They are attempting to drive the farmers away. These are hate crimes.

Would it not be progressive to take such a crime more seriously than a prank? I think you know the answer to that, too.

[Herschel]

34. Reconsider

If Palestinian youths destroyed the property of settlers, would you assume they were guilty of a hate crime and call for decades of hard labor?

[Jack Rabbit]

35. Palestinians do worse than that

And I have called for war crimes tribunals.

[Herschel]

36. Please answer the question

-

[Jack Rabbit]

41. Response

Please don't try to romanticize the settlers by calling them a "hardy band". They are there to extend the sovereignty of the state of Israel into land that is not and never has been a part of the modern state of Israel. I take a very dim view of that.

This is a conflict in which the rules of war should be applied. The Israeli presence in the West Bank and Gaza is an occupation to which the Fourth Geneva Convention should be applied; if it were, the settlements would not be a problem because there is and can be no such thing as a legal Israeli settlement in occupied territory. The Israeli government should either dismantle the settlements or bring them into Israeli territory in a land exchange, as provided in the virtual peace agreement known as the Geneva Accord.

Civilians should not be targeted, regardless of who is right and who is wrong. When Palestinians attack a settlement, they often kill settlers, including children. This is a war crime. When a suicide bomber strikes in a cafe or a bus in Israel proper, that is also a war crime. Yes, I think it is more serious than these acts of vandalism aimed at driving Palestinian farmers from their land, but only because one results in the loss of life. Otherwise, as will be seen below, I do believe there is a difference between Palestinian attacks on settlements and settler attacks on Palestinian orchards.

The practice of an occupying power settling occupied territory is in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention (Article 49, paragraph 6) and is classified as a war crime under the Rome Statute (Article 8, paragraph 2(b)(viii)). I do not hold settlers as a whole responsible for this, but rather successive Israeli governments, past and present. The reason for this prohibition of settlements under international law is to prevent the very situation which arises in the occupied territories: the displacement of the native population in order to accommodate the occupying power and the use of the resources of the occupied land to the benefit of the occupying power rather than the native population.

The Israeli settlements in the occupied territory are built by displacing Palestinian Arabs who are then given no right to live in the new communities. They are accessed on roads on which Palestinians are forbidden to travel. Clearly, no Palestinian has any interest in having these communities present or in allowing the present settlement policy to continue without resistance.

Consequently, where the settlements are involved, one must take into account that they are an injustice imposed on the Palestinian people. In this environment, what would be a simple act of vandalism in a more mundane setting is imbued with meaning not normally present.

Therefore, I would judge a Palestinian damaging the property of an Israeli settler less harshly than I would the Israeli settler doing property damage to Palestinian farmer. One is resisting an injustice; the other is perpetrating one. This is not to say that I would give the Palestinian free rein; however, I would, as you say should be done in the case of settler violence, view each incident separately.

To some, this might seem like a double standard. However, there can be no clear consistent standard for the simple reason that the relationship between an occupying power and the people living under occupation is not one of equals. Where such a relationship exists, a neutral third party must arbitrate the rights of the weaker party against the interests of the stronger. In was out of that need that the body of modern international law was born; this includes the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Israel has perfectly good reasons to occupy the West Bank and Gaza; that occupation is not illegal per se. Israel has valid concerns about her security and valid reasons to think of Palestinian militants as a threat to Israeli citizens. However, that does not give Israel the right to do anything in the territories she desires. She cannot use land seized in war to build settlements; she cannot build a security fence inside the territory where one built on her own borders would serve the purpose of security just as well, if not better.

Israel is a party to the Fourth Geneva Convention. She should abide by it.

[Herschel]

43. A thoughtful reply

However, I would suggest an act of vandalism in resistance to the settlements is directed toward a group based on their ethnicity. You may hold a dim view of the settlers. Yet, given the tension between the two groups, I cannot condone a dramatically different consequence for similar acts.

[Herschel]

57. Further

An act of vandalism against settlers could be considered a form of terrorism as easily as an act against Palestinians is considered ethnic cleansing.

[Forkboy]

58. what a joke

oh,my!

[Herschel]

59. Explain yourself

What are you taking issue with?

[Herschel]

21. B'Tselem is leftist rather than pragmatic

It should be remembered Palestinians have used olive crops for cover while gathering intelligence for future terrorist attacks. Each incident involving a settler and olive farmer must be viewed separately. The settlers are a hearty band we all admire on some level.

[Darranar]

23. Oh, really?

It should be remembered Palestinians have used olive crops for cover while gathering intelligence for future terrorist attacks.

Nice excuse. These acts are disgusting and atrocious, and there is no getting around it.

Btw, do you have any evidence to support this accusation?

Each incident involving a settler and olive farmer must be viewed separately.

Destruction of the crops of innocent farmers is unjustified in almost every case. There is no excuse for this.

The settlers are a hearty band we all admire on some level.

Stealing people's land isn't an admirable trait.

B'Tselem is leftist rather than pragmatic

Leftists can be very pragmatic. So can leftist ideology. That doesn't mean that many leftists are willing to excuse such atrocities, though.

[Jack Rabbit]

24. Is 'leftist' supposed to be a put down, Herschel?

This is Democratic Underground, after all.

[Forkboy]

26. I've never seen him use it in a good way

ever.

[Herschel]

28. You two

As is the case with many Democrats, I tend to be more practical in terms of foreign affairs. It seems to me the so called leftists are misguided on the subject of Israel. A discussion of other topics would reflect my more liberal views.

[Forkboy]

29. Then I'd love to see you in the other discussions

there's a whole big forum dedicated to just that.You too can play in our reindeer games.

[Herschel]

33. I find myself drawn to this discussion

as many others do. Time does not permit me to participate in all the discussions I would like.

[Forkboy]

37. Thats a shame

[Herschel]

38. Indeed

-

[Jack Rabbit]

40. Misplaced response

Removed by poster to post 41.

[Jim Sagle]

9. No need to wonder. The opposition will make it clear.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

13. again with the 'wonder'

I want the royalty rights on the word...

I 'wonder' why people would cheapen the memory and sacrifice of Israeli's by bringing up their deaths in this thread. To use them as some form of justification or rationalization for the malevolent acts of others.

Bill

[Scurrilous]

10. The Hilltop Youth...

...are just doing their part to help make the desert bloom.

[thebigidea]

60. Their whimsical pranks are Andy Kaufmanesque indeed. Be glad!

[Jim Sagle]

61. The Olive Garden has decent food at a fair price.