Just watched "Loose Change 2d Ed." Big hole in theory?

[UCLA02]

For those who have seen it, please comment...Where are all the people from the actual commercial planes that took off (esp. the one that landed in Cleveland)? Are they saying that they were "disappeared" by our gov't after the ol' switcheroo?


As much as I want to put on my tinfoil hat and believe it all, there are some serious holes in the various theories proposed.

Thanks in advance for any comments/clarification.

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. I wondered about that too

The important thing is they aren't here anymore.

[leftofthedial]

2. If you are in the process of murdering 3000 innocent people

why would you have qualms about killing a couple hundred more?

[JackRiddler]

26. Yes. I would.

Generally "they" kill for reasons.

There has to be an angle where it actually makes sense.

Why the loose ends? What does it bring?

Why not fly them straight into the ground and be done with it?

[mdmc]

3. I saw it yesterday, but lost the link when DU scrubbed the GD post

There are a lot of holes.

[UCLA02]

5. I agree.

It seems too much, even for us regular tinfoil-hat DUers.


EDIT--Meant as a reply to post #2.

[rman]

4. Assuming an inside job, then why believe there actually were passengers

in those planes? Or pilots for that matter.

Remote control technology for large planes has been around since at least the 60's, when it was in fact considered to be used in false-flag ops against Cuba.

see Operation Northwoods
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwood

Operation Northwoods or Northwoods was the code name for various false flag actions, including domestic terror attacks (such as involving the use of "hijacked" planes) on U.S. soil, proposed in 1962 by senior U.S. Department of Defense leaders to generate U.S. public support for military action against Cuba.

<snip>

In response to a request for pretexts for military intervention by the Chief of Operations, Cuba Project (Col. Edward Lansdale), the document lists methods (with, in some cases, outline plans) the author believed would garner public and international support for US military intervention in Cuba. These are staged attacks purporting to be of Cuban origin, with a number of them having real casualties. Central to the plan was the use of "friendly Cubans" —right-wing Cuban exiles seeking to oust Fidel Castro and establish an anti-communist state —perhaps similar to the earlier Batista regime.

The suggestions included:

<snip>

- Destroying an unmanned drone masquerading as a commercial aircraft supposedly full of "college students off on a holiday". This proposal was the one supported by the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

<more>

[mdmc]

7. kick

:)

[UCLA02]

8. I get that but,

They would have had to coordinate thousands of "mourning 9/11 family members." I have to believe that those people are gone, as noted in a post above. But that would require, again, as alluded to above, the gov't to "dispose" of them, along with the other 2000+ that were inside the buildings.

[rman]

13. If they can make half the population believe there's a war on christmas,

then what else is propaganda capable of?

And if anyone would have to be disposed of, i don't see the govt having a hard time doing that.

[CJCRANE]

21. 85% of US troops in Iraq

think they're there to avenge 9/11. Not that difficult to fool most of the people most of the time.

(Although obviously less and less these days since Katrina, port sell-off etc).

[helderheid]

9. Wasn't some executive producer of Frasier on one of those flights?

from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frasier


The last show was dedicated to David Angell, one of the creators of Frasier, who, along with his wife, Lynn Angell, died on American Airlines Flight 11 in the 9/11 attacks.

[rman]

18. So they were disappeared,

it's not hard to do if the govt and govt agencies have been compromised.

[mirandapriestly]

25. David Angell

...David was born in West Barrington, RI, and he received a bachelor's degree in English Literature from Providence College. He entered the army upon graduation and served at the Pentagon until 1972...

http://www.tv.com/david-angell/person/9572/biography.html

[dailykoff]

27. Served at the Pentagon?

Odd that so many of the passengers had direct or indirect Pentagon connections.

[killtown]

28. Holy crap! He did work at the Pentagon!

I wonder if that was a prerequisite for being chosen to be on the 9/11 flights!

David Angell
Lynn Angell

David Angell, 54, and his wife, Lynn Angell, 45, both of Pasadena, Calif., were returning from a family wedding on the East Coast to Los Angeles for the upcoming Emmy Awards, which were postponed in the wake of Tuesday's attack.

Angell was the creator and executive producer of the NBC sitcom "Frasier" and had won numerous awards for his work on that show and its predecessor, "Cheers."

A Rhode Island native, Angell worked in the U.S. Army, at the Pentagon, with an enginnering company and an insurance firm on the East Coast before moving to Los Angeles in 1977, when he sold his first television script, according to a biography issued by the Paramount Television Group.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0109130370sep13,0,1516200.story?page=5

He joins all these guys:

http://killtown.911review.org/flight77/passengers.html#Charles_Burlingame

http://killtown.911review.org/flight77/passengers.html#Wilson_Flagg

http://killtown.911review.org/oddities/911.html#Bernard_Brown (didn't work there, but Dad did)

http://killtown.911review.org/oddities/911.html#Bryan_Jack

[dailykoff]

29. If it was more than just a coincidence

they would have told us.

:sarcasm:

[killtown]

34. David Angell

http://killtown.911review.org/oddities/911.html#David_Angell

[helderheid]

6. that's the only question that really bothered me too.

[Warpy]

10. Of all the loony conspiracies out there, this is one of the looniest

Yeah, where ARE all those people? Even if they'd been lined up and shot, the bodies would've turned up by now.

I really hate any theories that give this bunch credit for being smarter than they are, and that means most of 'em.

We know they were warned about an impending attack using hijacked aircraft and that they did nothing about it beyond taking Asscroft's precious ass off commercial flights.

Other than that, we know that 19 men, most with forged or stolen passports, hijacked 4 aircraft and flew 3 of them into buildings and the fourth into the ground. We know that nearly 3000 people were killed in the buildings or on the planes.

The third paragraph is the operative one, and the only place a "conspiracy" could possibly exist. Did they ignore the warnings because they were too busy contemplating their looooooong vacation, basking in the afterglow of getting the rich people a big tax cuts, and dreaming of glory in Iraq--or did they ignore the warnings because they knew they needed a big deal to justify their war against Iraq? That's really where the only question lies.

[we can do it]

31. Believing ANYTHING Presented By Booshie 7 Co. Is Looney

>.... We know that 19 men, most with forged or stolen passports, hijacked 4 aircraft and flew 3 of them into buildings and the fourth into the ground.....

How do we know this? Because they TOLD US? No evidence has been presented.

[UCLA02]

32. We have always been at war with Eastasia.

Repetition is the key, of course.

[we can do it]

33. Hey I Thought We Were At War with Eurasia...

Oh well, Iraq - Iran, Eurasia - Eastasia...Its all doublespeak

[ramblin_dave]

11. If you put forward a dozen arguments and one or two

turn out to be false, does that invalidate all the others?

Of course not.

But if you want to destroy all the speculation, produce a video and salt the valid speculation with a couple of easily discredited items.

Works every time.

[rman]

12. Besides, don't you think there are large holes in the Official Story?

The essence of 9-11 conspiracy theory is not to prove what did happen, but to show that the Official Story about it does not add up. It's like an investigator showing that the alibi of a suspect of a crime is not credible - which is valid regardless of being able to show what the suspect was actually doing. The latter would be a next step in the investigation - if there'd be an investigation.

[UCLA02]

15. 100% with you on that.

Official story is bullshit, ala Warren Commission, I believe the gist of Loose Change, I'm just of the opinion that it is too much and might hurt "our" cause more than help. "More files with honey..." and all that.

But yes, offical story is shit. Much in "Loose Change" is worth looking into. (Where's the "plane" from the Pentagon and the subsequent explosions at WTC leap to mind.)

[rman]

17. Loose Change is not my favorite

because although it makes a number of good points, it also includes questionable 'evidence'.

In my experience the WTC7 collapse alone is enough to convince people or at least raise strong suspicions, provided they are not unwilling to go through the looking glass in the first place. Kindof like the magic bullet theory.


Regarding the planes (again assuming mihop), imo it's obvious that it's much easier to use RC planes then to really have actual passenger planes hijacked and have some people fly them into those towers. All those passenger and crew are only so many wild cards that could interfere with the operation.
Atta and the hijackers are just patsies, like Oswald.

see "Mohammed Atta and the Venice flying circus"
http://www.madcowprod.com/vfcwmv.html

[UCLA02]

19. LC claims some of the hijackers are still alive

Which is something I've heard before, that they had to "edit" the list of ID'd hijackers once some of them started coming forward and saying "wait, here I am..."

WTC 7 should raise suspicions.
The Penn. "crash site"/hole should raise suspicions.

But the Flight 93/Cleveland connection is quite questionable as a theory itself.

[rman]

14. Well, this thing did fly for all of 20 minutes

in GD.

[UCLA02]

16. Yeah, way too many sub-forums around here.

Who looks on this forum anymore? I hadn't thought about this forum in quite some time.

Besides, this wasn't a September 11 thread, anyway, it was a thread re comments about a documentary.

So that explains why every "Brokeback Mountain" thread ended up on the GLBT BBs, of course... /sarcasm/

Geez...

[Mind_your_head]

20. Was looking around for a different thread, but found this old

DU one that's pretty interesting with LOTS of info ~ when you have time to study it all ~ it's pretty fascinating.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=125&topic_id=37066#40187

I'm going to keep looking for the one I intended to post.

[stickdog]

22. My theory on the planes.

Load them on the war games targets scheduled for that day and shoot them down over the ocean.

My theory on the folks who rigged the WTC towers to explode: Ask them all to meet/work one last time somewhere in the WTC twin towers, then lock the door and leave.

Where are the holes again?

[wildbilln864]

23. Could it have went this way?

I believe they( the conspirators) had information and was tracking the terrorists! They knew what the terrorists were going to do but the terrorists didn't know they were monitoring them. Hidden mics, tracking devices, moles, etc. They let their plan advance along until they were able to take over the planes remotely and make sure the attack went ahead. So there really were those people on the planeswho died but maybe the terrorists weren't planning on dieing that day, maybe they were. Either way, it could be that once the terrorist took over the plane that someone remotely steered the planes into the buildings and so forth and no one on board could do anything about it.

?????????

[MrSammo1]

24. Are they saying that they were "disappeared" by our gov't after the ol' sw

Read page ten of the document Operation Northwoods and you'll get their drift.

Personally I think they are wrong. Today's computers make it unnecessary to involve that many people.

[UCLA02]

30. I don't think that he film never addressed where they went

after being "evacuated" in Cleveland. I don't have the video with me, so I can't re-check this, but they did talk about them being evacuated. So that to me sounds like LC accepts that there were "civilian" passengers on the plane, but never answers where they went.

(But thanks, for the links via PM. Scary and enlightening at the same time.)

Reading Operation Northwoods now...frightening shit so far.

[killtown]

35. Does it really matter where they went?

It already shows that are gov't lied to us and committed a conspiracy, so why is it so important to know where they really went? Other than providing closure to the families, it's really a moot point.

[UCLA02]

36. Well, that's my question that we're dancing around...

I know at this point it doesn't matter, I'm more asking from a sterile, clinical standpoint: where are the "victims?" What is the line with this "Northwoods" theory?

Were there any passengers at all? Were the "victims" lists part of the ruse? That would require the cooperation of greiving family members from Central Casting as well as would require complicity by Ted Olson (I don't put anything past him, but it does seem apparent that Barbara is no longer around. Would even HE be willing to swallow THAT for his president?) Even "Northwoods" returned the pre-selected/secure "passengers" unharmed to the US as the drone that replaced their plane in the flightpath was destroyed.


If there were indeed real passengers, they would have had to have been lined up and shot (as another post suggested). Again, even "Northwoods" left the "passengers" unharmed.


Correct, it doesn't matter at this point, I'm just trying to clear up how this theory accounts for these "missing" (or maybe more accurately "unaccounted-for") people.

[killtown]

37. I would like to know what really happened just as much as you

however, we can only speculate as to what happened to them or if they all even existed. To me pondering about what happened to the passengers is just a distraction. Stick with the facts we know.

peace

[UCLA02]

38. But I'd at least like the line

I'm not expecting to "find out what really happened." I just want to know what this "no planes actually went down in PA or into the Pentagon" theory has to say about the people, that's all. So that when I try spreading the word about this (esp. flts. 77 & 93), I'd like to be able to respond to the inevitable question of "where, then, are the passengers, smart guy?" with more than a dismissive "well, does it really matter?" because I think having AN answer is better than having a multiple choice "take your pick" or even what purports to be the "correct" answer, which we've properly assumed we'll likely never have.

Basically what I was looking for was what is the position on this as far as the proponents of this theory are concerned? Were there no passgengers at all? Were they herded off in Cleveland, lined up and shot? Were they pinky-sworn to secrecy and allowed to go on their merry way in Cleveland, all independently deciding not to alert their families that they'd just been somehow involved in the worst disaster to hit the US?

I mean, "Loose Change" never addressed it (the impetus for my thread) and nobody promoting this theory ("Loose Change" as well as the various LIHOP/MIHOP sites) seem to be inclined to plug the hole with anything other than "does it really matter?" But again, I believe it important to put forth a complete story to any would-be converts (like I'm trying hard to be). It's tough to say to people that passengers on Flt. 93 were unloaded in Cleveland and then have no theory as to what happened to them (I specifically ask for a "theory" rather than "explanation," which I am not looking for nor expecting). Mass grave? Siberia? Burger King flipping Whoppers with Elvis?