Take The $10,000 Challenge!

[killtown]

For those of you who still think Hani Hanjour -- or any of the other alleged hijackers -- crashed Flight 77 into the Pentagon, here's a challenge for you:


Go to a flight school that has a simulator for a Boeing 757 with simulated terrain. Have the flight instructors take off at or near Dulles airport and fly the 757 out near the Ohio/Kentucky border where Hanjour and his gang of merry thugs took over the plane.







Then you will take over the controls by yourself...







...and turn the plane around and head back towards the D.C. area and try to crash into the Pentagon any place you wish. You can hit it from the side, from the top, or where ever. It doesn’t matter where you hit it as long as some part of the plane touches the building, even if it’s just the tip of the wing.







Now here’s the catch, since Hani Hanjour was on a suicide mission, you have only ONE chance to commandeer the 757 into the Pentagon and since it’s hard to simulate the feelings of knowing you are going to die soon from crashing your plane into your intended target, you have to bet the flight school $10,000 that you can do it in ONE try. Oh, and you have to be going over 500mph the entire time.







Think you could do it knowing you might lose $10,000 of your own money?

Still think Hani Hanjour could have flown the plane into the Pentagon?



Put your money where your mouth is

and take the $10,000 challenge!



http://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/04/take-10000-challenge.html

[simonm]

1. Hanjour couldn’t even spell jihad in Arabic

1998: Information on Hanjour Apparently Ignored by FBI

Collins later calls Hanjour a “hanky panky” hijacker: “He wasn’t even moderately religious, let alone fanatically religious. And I knew for a fact that he wasn’t part of al-Qaeda or any other Islamic organization; he couldn’t even spell jihad in Arabic.”

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a98collins

[number6]

2. Hanjour couldn’t even make a basic turn in a Cessna 152

but he could fly 40 ft off the deck at 400mph +
and knock down light poles and fly thru (without plowing the jet into the
ground )..a 16 ft hole (in 150ft wide jet airliner)
in the Pentagon, hey how bout that Penta lawn and indestructible
pentium cables :) guy was amazing huh ..

[mirandapriestly]

3. His aviation career

...After moving to Phoenix, Arizona, Hanjour paid $4800 for lessons at CRM Flight Cockpit Resource Management in Scottsdale. He received poor marks from instructor Duncan Hastie, and left the school frustrated, compounded with the fact his recent Visa application had been denied....

...In December, he again attended CRM Flight Cockpit Resource Management, though left after a few weeks training....

...Hanjour lived in several apartments in Tempe, Mesa and Phoenix, and enrolled in flight simulator classes at the Sawyer School of Aviation where he made only three or four visits...

...In August 1998, Hanjour requested to rent a small plane at the Freeway Airport in Bowie, Maryland. However, after three practise flights with an overseer, it was decided that he was not capable enough to allow him to rent....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hani_Hanjour

[Nederland]

40. Wow

For a guy who never piloted a plane into the Pentagon he sure did take a lot of flight lessons, didn't he? :eyes:

[mirandapriestly]

4. Is there anything connecting him to "al qaeda"?

They haven't even released the manifest, so we don't know if he was there, right? he replaced Mosear Caned, who they decided not to use for some reason.

[spooked911]

5. good post! But I don't know if it will convince anyone who

doesn't already think something is screwy with the official flight 77 story.

[Make7]

6. Why are you challenging people using someone else's money?

Why not bet people who are willing to try this $10,000 of your own money? Matching anyone who attempts it dollar for dollar.

Put your money where your mouth is

and make a $10,000 challenge!

- Make7

[Jazz2006]

7. Indeed. n/t

[killtown]

9. Do you think Hani flew it into the Pentagon?

[Make7]

10. If it means you'll bet me $10,000, I will answer yes. ( n/t )

[Name removed]

11. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Make7]

50. I really don't know how I'm supposed to respond to this.

It doesn't seem to address any of the points raised in my posts.

- Make7

[Old and In the Way]

8. Probably easy money for an experienced 757 driver or any commercial pilot.

But I'm pretty sure the Hans Hanjour that we've come to know couldn't have done it. I've set/saved the parameters in MSFS2002 (777, cruising speed- 450kts @ 7000 feet, approaching from the WSW approx 5 minutes from Washington, DC). I used the approach that has been published on the 'net.

It always takes me many attempts to finally hit the Pentagon. It takes a combination of banking, air brakes, throttle, flaps, etc.....and it is quite easy to destroy the airframe in mid-flight. I've died a few horrible deaths that way :-).

The angle that 77 hit the Pentagon is particularly difficult because it requires an extreme tight bank over Reagan Airport to get any shot at lining up for that bearing. Thing is, trying to hit on that bearing, dropping 7000 feet, gives you no room for error. I've never gotten a hit from that angle...the closet I've come is from a direction straight on over the helicopter pad.

I guess he could have been 'lucky', but given his Cessna skills, I really doubt he was the pilot that managed to pull it off.

[Make7]

21. I hope you are feeling better.

I hear that recovering from death can be a long and painful process. :)

I was wondering, in the original post it does not appear to spell out the approach, angle, or altitude - just the speed, so how difficult do you think it would be if you could make any approach that you wanted?

Just curious.

- Make7

[Old and In the Way]

37. You need nerves of steel to be a MS pilot!

:-)

I was going by the only published info I've found on the flightpath of 77. The map of the path has been posted in this forum in the past. No question, Hans made about the most difficult attempt one could imagine. Approaching Washington DC at 7000 feet on a clear September Day should have been no problem with picking out the landmmarks. I have to assume that his target was always the Pentagon....I don't think he decides to ad lib the target selection on the spur of the moment.

It would have been much easier to descend directly into the Pentagon, then make a 270 degree turn. Why chance the extra time and allow an intercept? Maybe he got confused, but DC is pretty well laid out with lots of visual landmarks to work with. If he overshot the Pentagon, he was still way too high.....I don't know why he wouldn't have been much lower/slower at the point he began his 270 degree turn. He could have made a wider turn, too, on his descent which would have allowed more time to line up the approach. It really was a spectacular feat of flying for a guy who couldn't handle a Cessna.

[Jazz2006]

38. Admittedly

It would not be the standard approach (if one can call aiming at the Pentagon a standard approach by any stretch of the imagination) but certainly not out of the realm if that was the goal.

Personally, my guess (and yes, it's only a guess, since I wasn't there any more than the rest of the people posting here were) is that whoever took over the cockpit got the pilots to cue up the numbers and then improvised.

Even though there is room to call it "difficult" in the circumstances, it certainly wasn't beyond the realm of possibility and, frankly,I've landed in worse circumstances. These guys weren't planning on landing, though. They planned on crashing.


And THAT is the ultimate difference.

[Make7]

47. At least you can drink to calm your nerves.

I imagine that would increase your comfort level considerably.

I agree about the selection of the target, it most likely was always intended to be the Pentagon.

I was asking my question because I'm trying to plan the approach for my simulator run if it means I can win $10,000. I think starting an approach to land at National Airport would be easiest, veering off when the Pentagon is easy to line up. :)

Maybe you should take the challenge too.

- Make7

[Jazz2006]

12. If you put up the 10K, I will gladly take your challenge. n/t

[killtown]

13. If you are so convinced Hani flew the plane, take the challenge

the way I propose it then send me the results of how you do.

[Jazz2006]

14. You're the one who is purporting to make a challenge, so ...

it is you should be "putting your money where your mouth is" to use YOUR words.

[killtown]

15. I'm not the one who says Hani could easily have flown the plane

My challenge goes out to all who think he could have, so put your money where your mouth is if you think he could have done what he was said to do.

[Jazz2006]

16. Your so called "challenge" isn't a challenge at all if...

you're not putting up the money.

This should be blatantly apparent to anyone with two brain cells that arc (to use another phrase I picked up on these threads).

YOU are the one who says he couldn't have done it.

So put your money where your mouth (and your purported challenge) is.

Otherwise, it will appear quite obvious that you are just blowing smoke.

[killtown]

17. Obviously you don't understand the point of the challenge

and that's why BushCo gets away with what they do.

[Jazz2006]

18. Obviously, you don't know the meaning of the word 'challenge' and

that's why you're still blowing smoke.

The offer still stands, though. If you are willing to put up your $10K, I will take you up on it.

To use your own words, put your money where your mouth is.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jazz2006]

20. ???

What is "disruptive" about having a different point of view than you?

And, for the record, I have never posted any other name, but that's the second time in as many days that I have been accused of same.

That sounds paranoid to me.

Are you SO uncertain of your shaky ground that you feel the need to pretend that I'm someone else and not address what I've said?

ON EDIT - I think it was YOU who earlier suggested/accused that I was someone else. Is that the best you have to offer?

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jazz2006]

25. Nonsense

If you had read some of my other posts, you'd know that they are of substance. I am particularly interested in the firefighter related threads because my beau is a firefighter and a HUSAR member who was actually there, who talked to those on the scene at the time, and I personally spoke to some of those that he spoke to. I really take offence to the suggestion that the ffs were all in on the alleged conspiracy, because I know for a fact that they were not.

And I resent your posts alleging that I am some reincarnation of someone else just because I don't buy your views.

[Jazz2006]

22. And you know...

Since you feel quite free to call me names without ever have never engaged in any conversation with me whatsoever, it's pretty funny that YOU have the audacity to call ME "facile".

I'll be pleased to discuss the topics at hand with you if and when you have something to say that is not a juvenile insult thrown in my direction that you erroneously believe to be cutting wit. You know, you might start with something factual or even arguable.

It seems that you prefer to try to scare new posters away if they don't happen to agree with someone else who you, presumably, agree with (can't say that it's because I don't agree with YOU since you've never actually engaged in any discussion with me).

And that's just lame.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jazz2006]

26. Again, you insult without cause and you ....

attribute to me your own unsubstantiated prejudices.

That is sad.

But it's your problem, not mine.

I am still counting on there being some rational people here who are open minded enough to have a rational discussion even when views may vary on certain topics and on certain issues. Perhaps I'm wrong. But I don't think so.

Sad that you don't see it that way.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jazz2006]

28. Holy crap! You deleted a whole bunch of them now,

How do you do that?

And again, more importantly, WHY did you do that?

[Lithos]

29. you don't

Moderators do for a variety of reasons.

Lithos
DU Moderator

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jazz2006]

31. file83 and make7

thank you both for your (now deleted) answers as well.

(or is that a no-no referring to them even without mentioning their content?)

[Lithos]

32. That is fine

:)

[Jazz2006]

33. Question

Am I missing something in the rules, though, Lithos? Why did you remove my response to you? You can email me the response and delete this if that is better, of course.

[Lithos]

34. You should have two PM's

Private Messages. Go out to the main lobby, you should see the link - upper left.

L-

[Jazz2006]

35. Ahhhh

I haven't actually figured out the pm thing yet. I will go and check it out. Thanks.

[Jazz2006]

36. I see them now. Thanks. Much appreciated. ...

I still don't quite know how the p/m thing works but I'll get the hang of it. I saw them when you told me where to look, but now if I look there again, there is nothing pointing me to messages, so presumably that is because there are no new ones.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to cause any trouble here. I joined because I thought it would be a good venue for some decent debate and conversation. I was a bit surprised that I was being insulted for no good reason by someone I'd never even had a conversation with.

Even more surprised that a moderator intervened, truth be told, without being summoned or requested, though.

Enough said ~ it IS a good thing that you're on top of things.

(Even though I'd have kind of liked to hear his/her response to my legitimate question)

I can see why you'd nip it in the bud, though, and that's cool.


Cheers,
Jazz.

[Jazz2006]

39. Killtown-repeating here b/c it seems you aren't up for an ACTUAL challenge

It would not be the standard approach (if one can call aiming at the Pentagon a standard approach by any stretch of the imagination) but certainly not out of the realm if that was the goal.

Personally, my guess (and yes, it's only a guess, since I wasn't there any more than the rest of the people posting here were) is that whoever took over the cockpit got the pilots to cue up the numbers and then improvised.

Even though there is room to call it "difficult" in the circumstances, it certainly wasn't beyond the realm of possibility and, frankly,I've landed in worse circumstances. These guys weren't planning on landing, though. They planned on crashing.


And THAT is the ultimate difference.


AND I'll add this ~ put your money where your mouth is (YOUR words) and I'll be happy to take you up on your (so called) challenge.

[greyl]

41. Welcome to DU! :) nt

[Jazz2006]

44. Thanks. n/t

[killtown]

42. I offered you guys a challenge

why aren't you taking it up?

[Jazz2006]

43. See above.

Because it isn't a "challenge" at all unless you're putting up YOUR money.

[killtown]

45. Says who, the National Commission on Challenges?

Take the challenge or ST*U.

[Make7]

46. To clarify the "challenge":

From the original post:

Now here’s the catch, since Hani Hanjour was on a suicide mission, you have only ONE chance to commandeer the 757 into the Pentagon and since it’s hard to simulate the feelings of knowing you are going to die soon from crashing your plane into your intended target, you have to bet the flight school $10,000 that you can do it in ONE try. Oh, and you have to be going over 500mph the entire time.



Think you could do it knowing you might lose $10,000 of your own money?

Are you saying that by betting the flight school $10,000, if I am able to "hit the Pentagon" as per your "challenge", they will give me $10,000?

- Make7

[Name removed]

48. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jazz2006]

49. And the offer still stands, killtown, any time you're ready...

Any time you're ready to (in your words) "put your money where your mouth is" and make it an actual challenge with your cash at stake, I'll gladly take you up on it.

[Lithos]

51. Locking

Original thread cites 911review.org, a site which freely reproduces material from Rense, a site well known as being unacceptable.

Lithos
9/11 Forum Moderator