Mexican flag hysteria

[BobcatJH]

With the recent Republican push to turn immigration into this fall's key issue has come the accompanying right-wing bigotry. Since protests began a few weeks ago, we've heard a steady stream of rhetoric, much of it thinly veiled racism.

The vitriol reached a new low last week, when conservative gasbag Michael Savage called for his listeners to burn the Mexican flag. Doing this, he said, would show everyone how America wasn't going to be pushed around. It would also show Mexico that Americans weren't going to tolerate the "invasion" any longer.

Xenophobic, nationalistic posturing aside, it's important to note the hypocrisy of those who would burn the Mexican banner. Hypocrisy that, when revealed, shows the true attitudes behind this persecution.

Would those same self-styled patriots feel the same way about celebrating another nation's flag on, say, St. Patrick's Day? Or during Italian pride festivals? Or whenever American sports teams pay respect to Canadian teams during athletic contests? Is respecting other nations universal, or does it simply stop short of those nations with which the Republican Party has a problem?

Further, would those advocating the burning of Mexican flags similarly criticise the Rebel flag? Somehow, I doubt it. It's funny how those who take so much pride in a banner that celebrates racism, slavery and treason are considered good Americans, while those hard-working individuals who take pride in their Mexican heritage are considered the enemy.

But I guess this shouldn't surprise me. We are talking about the same people, after all, who denounce Jill Carroll as a Taliban sympathizer and who've made being of Middle Eastern descent the modern version of being branded with the scarlet letter.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with people flying the Mexican flag at immigration protests. Nor do I see the hypocrisy others see. Why? For the same reason many fly the American flag outside of their homes: Pride in one's nation. These people also don't appreciate it when others disparage their country. Well, that's exactly what many are doing now when they turn the immigration debate into an opportunity to showcase their hatred of Mexicans.

Those protesting, accordingly, are well within their rights, because their heritage is most definitely under attack from the right. To this end, I'm a bit puzzled that Republicans like Savage would show outrage over this Mexican pride. Didn't the aftermath of September 11 show everyone how much pride Americans took in being American? Apparently, patriotism stops at the southern border. We're proud to be American but also are proud of our heritage, which, in nearly all cases, isn't North American. Why can't those protesting enjoy the same rights?

When we allow the right to frame this debate, what happens is what always happens when we allow Bush conservatism to fester unchecked. Heated rhetoric and racist fear-mongering overshadow the issues. What many of us forget - especially Republicans - is that, with very rare exception, we're all immigrants to America, the majority of us illegally. Just ask the next Native American you see how legal our immigration was. And for some of us to posture against those taking pride in their heritage is like the squatter getting angry at the owner.

Is America so at risk that a protester flying a Mexican flag presents a grave threat to our entire way of life? Is our democracy so in peril the presence of a flag other than ours constitutes an act worthy of a hate crime? If so, we have far bigger problems than immigration.

[Deja Q]

1. No. It's about loyalty. Ask not what your country can do for you.

(John F Kennedy)

People who came to America fled their own seemingly worthless country and did all that work to pass the tests to become American. That wanted better here. That's fine and terrific. They want to come here to better themselves AND better America.

Raising Mexican flags not only means they put Mexico over America in terms of country quality, they are proving their loyalty to America is pretty phony too.

So why leave in the first place, if they're going to do this sort of silliness?

I may as well emigrate to England or France, get involved in a demonstration, and whip out the US flag. That'll be fun to see what happens...

:hide:

In the end, it is just silliness. Our leaders don't care about America either. They may as well fly Indian and Chinese flags outside their corporate HQs, not America's. Ditto for our politicians who support the large corporate elite, while saying they support small businesses.

[havocmom]

3. What HypnoToad said + observation that the US flag is used as a prop

by politicians who have done much to destroy the nation, and all nations for that matter, in favor of the border-less multi-national corporations.

Flags now only serve to ignite passionate emotions and distract. They don't actually represent nations anymore. There aren't any nations anymore. Flags are just part of the circus to keep the masses from taking the time to really look at what is going on.

Flags are the modern day Fun House mirrors: They show the flag wavers a exaggerated, distorted image of themselves and their real importance. They no longer represent anything accurately.

[MichiganVote]

7. Second that.

[radio4progressives]

10. It's not about "Loyalty to Country" it's about Ethnic and Cultural Pride

For those of us that tend to cling to White Supremacy and the Dominant race dictim's we fail to recognize America is pluralistic, multi-racial and multi cultural society .. or rather some would prefer to maintain that racial dominance - and that is what is the very core of the massive hysteria over the "flag" issue as well as political consequences of significant rise in cultural and ethnic populace that is "other than white".

[MichiganVote]

11. Then make up a multicultural flag b/c the flag of any other nation

is not representative of the US or its citizens. And for the record, not everyone who rejects your argument is a white or black or mexican supremist.

[tocqueville]

12. there have been similar displays in France

and it's not unusual to see Algerian or Moroccan flags in demonstrations regarding immigration. I have seen American flags in demonstrations against the Iraq war, displayed by resident Americans wanting AS AMERICANS to show their disdain for the war. Where is the problem ?

"I may as well emigrate to England or France, get involved in a demonstration, and whip out the US flag. That'll be fun to see what happens..."

I'll tell you : everybody here thinks it's pretty normal. There is respect for the National flag here and it's even forbidden to burn it. But there is no fetichist fixation around it. Besides in all official displays, the flag is shown together with the EU flag, except for strict French commemorative days.

Sometimes I wonder if the US is another planet. I think there is a basic unsecurity showing up there. The displays of American flags everywhere in the US society astonishes visitors. Why show off something that is granted ? Is somebody threatening the US independence ?

Plenty of people moved to France because there were better opportunities. It doesn't make their country of origin "worthless" as you seem to imply. Many of those people are proud of their origins and sometimes it can be shown through a flag. It doesn't make them "less French" for that.

I think your smiley of somebody hiding behind a wall is very appropriate. Jingoism is caused by fear. Fear of the world and belief that you alone are superior. Don't wonder why plenty of people around the world have a negative image of Americans. It's one thing if it comes from a freeper. But a Democrat should know better.

[Bassic]

15. I agree with you.

I'm canadian, and we're used to that sort of thing. We (usually) don't take it so hard. I for one am as likely to whip out the Québec flag (Fleurdelisé) as the Maple Leaf. Although there are some in Canada who are annoyed by this, most of us understand that the country is made up of people with many cultural backgrounds which make them no less canadian.

[frankly_fedup2]

33. I have a question regarding Canada. Since we share a border

if you are a Canadian Citizen and you come into the U.S., do you have to get some kind of special permit? If not, then how does immigration keep up with Canadians or do they just let Canadians stay? Same applies for U.S. Citizens that go into Canada? If no record is kept, is it just because we share a border?

I'm starting to wonder if half of Hollywood is here legally. We have a lot of actors who are not U.S. Citizens but Canadian...

As you can tell by my questions, I've never been anywhere so please excuse my ignorance.

[Bassic]

34. Well, it's not very hard to get a working permit in either

country, provided that you have a employer who is willing to vouch for you and to prove that they are hiring you for a job or a contract. There are some fees to pay, but usually, if you're specifically getting hired, your employer will pay them.

Naturally, it's a lot easier for a white, anglo-saxon (or even french) canadian (if only because we can usually afford the fees and more or less look and sound like Americans) to get a working permit in the states then it is for a Mexican person who just came accross the border.

[frankly_fedup2]

52. Well then that proves the racism right there. Am I wrong for feeling

this way? Why the huge difference in treatment from our neighbors in the south compared to our neighbors in the north? There should be no difference at all. But we all know why and it's the Almighty dollar.

Bassic, I have always wanted to visit Canada, my husband has been (for hunting -- which he did before he married me and now he doesn't do that anymore, lol-a few tears will get my husband to do almost anything for me. I know it's manipulative, but I cannot stand the thought of him killing an innocent animal . . . sorry).

Anyway, after Bush was selected in 01 and then 911, and just the way they have almost ruined this country, I told my husband I would love to move to Canada. I've heard Toronto is beautiful. A city but a small city. Free health care (well, not free when taxes pay for it but everyone gets it). That's not really the main reason though because we have a good policy with his employer now. We have health, eye, dental, and a prescription card and we pay nothing for it. We just have to pay a $20-$30 co-pay. Cannot complain there.

Over the last five years things have just gotten worse and worse. My husband's like, "Well, you cannot run away from it," which is right, but it breaks my heart to see what this one little arrogant Napoleon-like freak has done in such a short time. Plus, I don't think my husband could make in Canada the kind of money he makes here for what he does as he gets union wages. His company services the Coal Mines in West Virginia, Kentucky, Pennsylvania, everywhere.

One thing I told my husband was the first seven years there, we wouldn't have to pay any taxes. That would be a big plus. I don't know what I want. Maybe a few tears might get it? hmmmmm.

Thanks for your info above.

[sadiesworld]

57. Sure, no problems w/ immigration or the EU constitution in France.

Nope, nothing to see there. LOL

[RagingInMiami]

24. Bullshit

Raising the Mexican flag has nothing to do with the American flag. Is there any American that is not so goddamn egocentric? It's not always about you, man. It's not always about the red, white and blue. The world does not revolve around the USA, contrary to what many people believe.

To the Mexicans, the flag represents their culture, their family, their heritage, their history, their language, their music, their cuisine, their climate, their childhood friends, the soccer team they support.

To them, the Mexican flag represents home.

Even though they might be living here now, trying to assimilate, hoping to create a better life for themselves and their family, there will always be one home. And that will always be Mexico.

After all, just cause you live in a new country doesn't mean you have to forget the country you left behind. It doesn't mean you're disrespecting the new country. It just means you will always carry a piece of the old country in your heart until the day you die.

Why is that so hard to understand?

[frankly_fedup2]

40. I was always taught that every other country in the whole wide world

would give anything to be like America. We were the greatest country in the World. Of course, this was in the 70's. I think they are still using the same civic books as well as history books.

However, as an American, I still feel we live in the greatest country in the World. We are so hated; however, everyone's dream is to come here. Some in the World call us arrogant, fat, lazy, racist Americans, but they want to be what we are, an American Citizen. That is what is confusing to me. Some hate us and everything we stand for yet they want everything we have and more. Makes no sense.

It's like what some of the Arab Countries state how they hate the American Government (so do we), but not the American people. But it's the American People that are fighting this war. They are doing what they gave their word to do, and part of that (unfortunately) was to go where ever their commander in chief sent them. They vowed to protect the U.S. Constitution, and even if they themselves do not agree with this war, they have kept their vow. Bush, on the other hand, doesn't seem to think the Constitution of the United States has anything to do with him. He makes it up as he goes along; but I don't need to tell anyone that.

As for the Confederate flag, there were a lot of different flags that were used during the Civil War and some states still have a part of the final confederate flag included in their state flag. I read on this site that the confederate flag was based on and designed after St. Andrew. A large population of Scottish and Scottish-Irish Ancestry (who knew??). St Andrew was the Patron Saint of Scotland. The cross laid on its side because that was how he was crucified. The stars represented the eleven states Confederacy, plus Kentucky and Missouri. It was later that racist supremests groups decided to adopt this last confederate flag, which to me is a part of this country's history, but has been demonized far more then it should have been. This could be a good argument regarding choosing what history we want to remember and what we don't. I know anyone can have that flag because of the first amendment, but it is not to be displayed on government property. It's a part of the South's history and I do not look at it as a racist symbol because I do not connect it to these groups nor to slavery. My ancestors were the ones that worked with the blacks in the fields . . . they owned nothing . . . like the majority of the country. I think the "melting pot" has to do with all of our heritages. We are all a little bit of everything, and that is what makes this country still the greatest country in the World.

Also, at the time of the civil war, Abraham Lincoln was hated all over this country, (sound familiar) and not just in the South. Seems to me somewhere along the way, someone was able to change the way history remembered Abraham Lincoln. So Bush has a good chance in about 100 years.

Also, Lincoln had originally asked Robert E. Lee to lead the Union Army but Lee refused because he was born in Virginia, and he swore he would not fight against the state of his birth or the people of Virginia.

This was considered a "Rich Man's War" but poor men were going to fight it. (sound familiar). That was the first time there was a draft, I think 17 to 50, but somehow, just like today, the wealthy land owners, the ones that actually owned slaves including white slaves, not by ownership papers, but by owning the land they allowed them to work and live on for the land owner's profit only. They worked side-by-side with the blacks.

I feel that is what is going to happen with the new immigration laws (if passed). It's going to create another race of slaves (for lack of a better word sad to say), due to the low wages, no benefits, no worker's rights. This is going to affect everyone's wages eventually as well as benefits and/or rights.

It's just plain wrong and unethical from the start because Bush has made statements that the "Illegal immigrants will do the jobs American's won't. Oh, so that is the ONLY jobs, the below minimum wage, no benefit, no rights jobs that the immigrants (not just Mexican) will EVER get? Sounds like that is what he is saying to me. And we all know it's not jobs that American's WON'T do, it's because of the pay, lack of benefits, treatment of the workers, and no rights as a worker. Believe me, there are poor Americans working right beside immigrants legal or illegal because that is all there is available.

[mjg283]

45. If Mexico is their home

that begs the question of why they left. If your goal is to immigrate here and eventually become a citizen, you shouldn't forget where you came from, but I don't think it's too much to ask that your first loyalty be to the country you're asking to embrace you so you can have a better life. If Mexico retains your love and loyalty, then logic dictates you remain there and do what you can to improve the place and your own life there.

There's nothing wrong with remembering and celebrating Mexican culture and history, but, at the very least, it's rather ironic to be waving a Mexican flag when your protest is effectively arguing that the United States should accept and embrace you.

[RagingInMiami]

47. Do you want to know why people want to come to the United States?

Because here, we have the freedom to wave any flag we want and worship any religion we want. Why are you insisting they give up that constitutional right?

If it backfires on them, then so be it. If it creates so much hate and hysteria (which it is obviously doing), then they will have to deal with the consequences.

But if that's the case, then the United States isn't the country they thought they were coming to.

[mjg283]

67. Knock down that strawman

Of course they have the constitutional right to wave the Mexican flag. That doesn't immunize them from criticism for doing so. As I said, at the very least, it's ironic to be waving the flag of another country when you're apparently trying to convince the American public to ultimately accept you as a fellow American.

[RagingInMiami]

70. It's your constitutional right to criticize the Mexican flag-waving

And your personal prerogative to place certain criterias before you can "ultimately accept" the Mexicans as fellow Americans.

I think the real issue is, you would like to see them be a little more subservient in their quest for citizenship. Perhaps they should remain on their knees as they await their fate.

[mjg283]

104. Wow

A decision whether or not to wave a flag has nothing to do with being subservient or remaining downtrodden. It's about the message you're sending to others, the very people you're trying to convince to accept you. If my ancestors had come through Ellis Island waving Latvian or Belarussian flags, I can't imagine they would have been greeted with a warm reception.

I do appreciate the attempt to paint me as some Mexican-hating racist rather than trying to argue the point in a rational and non-childish manner.

[judaspriestess]

80. WTF?? post #45

what a lame ass post, have you ever been to Mexico, with its corrupt ass government? there was a man running for president when Fox was running, his name was Colloseo, he WAS for the people of Mexico, he was assasinated on tv. I saw it myself, shot in the head from behind. Thats how Fox became the President, there was no other choice, what could have been!!

[ProudDad]

88. NAFTA FUCKED UP THEIR HOME

that's why...

Blame Clinton...

[mjg283]

105. Oh, that's right, there were no illegal immigrants before NAFTA

How silly of me.

[ProudDad]

110. Nafta accelerated the pressure from the south

and "american" employers provide the incentive by hiring them in order to increase their profits and drive down everyone else's wages.

[frankly_fedup2]

112. You're right about NAFTA. It has really hurt all the third-World

countries because to be able to part of NAFTA, you have to be able to mass produce your products. The small, poor farmer cannot even make a living selling from their own land. They can grow some for their own family to feed; however, they cannot sell any to get the cash to buy the seeds to grow more just for their family.

I don't know why Clinton was so for NAFTA?

[ProudDad]

114. He's a corporate stooge

is why...

[TankLV]

76. What HypnoToad said.

Context is everything.

It's about showing disrespect to OUR country, pure and simple.

The Saint Patty's day and occasionaly Italian food festival is about HERITAGE and not about NATIONALISM - and comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges.

Flying the Mexican Flag is in that instance - and in that one instance alone, is a slap in the face to MY country, and I'm sick of it.

While not nearly as bad as the confederate flag, it is in the same "in your face" type just like the burning of the american flag is.

HOWEVER, in the context of this right wing asshole on the radio, etc., and the way the repukes are claiming this, I'm opposed to their attempt to create something perverse in its entirety. In that case, it's racist and zenophobic.

And besides, the way the Mexican flag was shown during the demonstrations, along side a lot of other flags from other south american countries, has more to do with showing where you are from, and not as a slight to the USA. In that context, I didn't feel slighted or insulted in the least.

[DBoon]

2. are they going to rename 'tacos' to 'freedom snacks'

or will they switch entirely to a more uniquely American cuisine, such as fried bologna sandwiches?

Are they going to rename margaritas as 'freedom lemonade'?

Will they pour Mexican beer down the toilet as a protest (I mean before drinking it, not after)?

[RagingInMiami]

25. That day when Americans poured French wine out in the street

because they would not help us invade another country confirmed what I had known for years: That I live in a country of idiots.

[RagingInMiami]

26. Freedom Fajitas

[Syncronaut Seven]

4. Near as I can tell, this should boost Mexican flag sales.

How many wingnuts you know keep a Mexican flag?

Get in on the ground floor! Freeper money spends just as good as American money. :patriot:

[BoneDaddy]

5. On a positive note

I agree with some of what you said.
1. Okay with me if you celebrate your heritage tooj, i fly an Irish flag next to my american flag.
2. Immigrants come here for a better life...mine did too.

But they were very very very stupid about this. It is not ok to come to another country that is providing you opportunity and possibly asylum and then turn around and react in a hostile way towards it's symbols. Is it well within their rights? SURE it is but the question is whether or not it was a rational practical way of protesting. I don't think so cause doing such things really works against them in the eyes of many americans who may have been sympathetic to their situation.

But to come to this country and then piss on it's flag? Not smart.

[RaleighNCDUer]

22. You missed an intermediate step in the process --

the step in which, by a stroke of a pen, 11 million of them are declared to be felons.

It was at that threat that they DID NOT act with hostility toward American symbols -- there were no US flags burned -- but DID act with pride in their own heritage. The multitude of flags was saying 'You may not notice us when we are picking up your garbage and tending your lawns, but today, here, you will see just who you are trying to criminalize.'

More power to them.

[ProudDad]

111. Not to mention the other 40 million or so

of those of us prepared to help them in any way and therefore become felons ourselves.

[radio4progressives]

6. Excellent post.. I would change one emphasis -It's about Ethnic Pride

It isn't about Nationalistic pride as it is Ethnic Pride, in that it's Ethnic and Cutlural Pride rather than say, "government" and it's institutions which i think most people fail to grasp in their xenophobic histeria.

[MichiganVote]

8. Ethnic pride is good for parades.

[baldguy]

9. The critics of ex-pat Mexicans are right.

They left that flag when they left that country.

Likewise, I'm sure they support the idea that ex-pat Americans should not display the Americans flag in say, Great Briton? France? Germany?

Or Iraq?

:sarcasm:

[tocqueville]

13. you have obviously never been abroad

In France you can see American flags everywhere. For plenty of different purposes, from commercial ones to legal representation. Even the township where I live has it in some strategic places since there is an important US resident community here, plus 1 000s of students.

Has I posted before, American flags have been displayed in demonstrations (mostly antiwar demonstrations) to show that a group WANTED to be idetified as Americans against teh war. And that was popular.

we are not that sensitive....

why should we fear an American flag ? or should we ?

[tocqueville]

18. American flag abroad (not burned, no sport)

UK :





Germany :

http://www.pbase.com/karenaxe/image/14875046

[mjg283]

46. But this wasn't an antiwar demonstration

It's a demonstration arguing that these immigrants should be accepted as full-fledged members of this country. Of course American flags are frequently waved abroad, and many foregin flags are flown here in parades, which I have no problem with. But it would be highly irregular for somebody to be waving an American flag in France all the while arguing that France should accept him or her as a full citizen.

[guidod]

92. Who cares what the demonstration

was for? Most of the people you saw demonstrating were American citizens, many were High School students. Are you saying you can only be proud of your country in certain types of demonstrations?

[That Dude]

14. Hysteria? Not quite.

Hey they can fly whatever flag they want BUT I can think what I want too. It's not hysteria when a bunch of extremist freaks are bandying about such stalwart ideals as these: http://www.mexica-movement.org/granmarcha.htm
These people are not Americans and do not want to be Americans. And besides all of that the fact that they do pay taxes is well established as is the fact that they take more out in services than they put in in taxes. Not to mention the fact that they send massive dough back home. What part of undermining the living and wage standards of America is good again? It's time to crack down on businesses that hire illegals. When we all are on equal footing we can all thrive. When a group of "sub-citizens" is allowed to exist and be exploited it hurts us all.

[xchrom]

16. here's some other facts for you -- Dude -- before we made the border

more restrictive -- {illegal} immigrants didn't stay.

they still don't -- they still try to go back and forth -- trying the best way they know to improve the lives of their families in their country -- so it's about their pride in the ethnic heritage they posses.

http://www.econlib.org/LIBRARY/Enc/Immigration.html
The Impact of Immigrants on Native Earnings



There are two opposing views about how immigrants affect the labor market opportunities of American natives. One view is that they have a harmful effect because immigrants and natives tend to have similar skills and compete for the same jobs, thus driving down the native wage. The other view is that the services of immigrants and natives are not interchangeable, but rather complement each other. For instance, some immigrant groups may be unskilled but particularly adept at harvesting crops. Immigration then increases native productivity and wages because natives can specialize in tasks for which they are better suited.

The first view is more likely correct. Economists who have rejected this view on the basis of evidence have looked at somewhat superficial data. These economists speculated that if the services of natives and immigrants are interchangeable, natives should earn less in cities where immigrants are in abundant supply, such as Los Angeles or New York, than in cities with few immigrants, such as Nashville or Pittsburgh. Although natives do earn somewhat less in cities that have large immigrant populations, the correlation between the native wage and the presence of immigrants is weak. If one city has 10 percent more immigrants than another, the native wage in the city with the most immigrants is only 0.2 percent lower.

i'm not a libertarian but this piece does some justice to dispelling the myth of ''illegal immigrants and wages.

http://www.lp.org/issues/immigration.shtml

In 1989, the U.S. Department of Labor reviewed nearly 100 studies on the relationship between immigration and unemployment and concluded that "neither U.S. workers nor most minority workers appear adversely affected by immigration."

very detailed evidence about ''illegal'' immigration, over all wages continue to rise -- with of course complications in specific sectors.

http://are.berkeley.edu/courses/EEP39C/Immigration.htm

http://www.nationalreview.com/ponnuru/ponnuru200603170753.asp

Almost all of the things that cause people to complain about illegal immigration are true of much legal immigration as well. If your worry is that illegal immigrants tend to raise government spending, for example, then you ought to be worried about legal immigrants, too. Half of legal immigrants have not gone past high school. Like illegal immigrants, they cost federal and state governments billions of dollars each year.

Or perhaps you’re concerned that illegal immigrants hurt low-income workers by driving low-end wages down. If so, you should be almost as concerned about legal immigration. Illegal immigrants tend to be paid less than legal immigrants, but the difference is small and largely reflects the fact that on average illegal immigrants have slightly less education than legal immigrants.

http://ehrenreich.blogs.com/barbaras_blog/2006/01/are_illegal_imm.html

The real shocker in the study is that 49 percent of the day laborers interviewed said they were regularly hired – not by contractors, companies of any kind, and certainly not “big corporations” – but by American homeowners. I’d just heard Bay Buchanan (sister of Pat) on Lou Dobbs’ show fulminating about the “big corporations” that are hiring all the illegal immigrants, but – surprise!—it’s the guy next door who needs his house painted or his lawn mowed.

http://www.newsbatch.com/immigration.htm

facts, figures and links on the immigration issue.


http://www.migrationinformation.org/USFocus/display.cfm?ID=210

the above link and the following paragraphs underscore the need of fairly free movment between the the u.s. and mexico.
and it also underscore what is a very intimate relationship.

Leg One: Accounting for the current immigrant population.
The domestic security agenda established after September 11 has cast the longstanding and growing unauthorized population in the US in a new light—as a potential hiding place for terrorists. Analysts talk about the challenges of finding the "needle in the haystack" and hotly debate the appropriate and constitutionally sound ways to make that haystack significantly smaller. Ideas have included registration, deportation (focusing initially on criminal immigrants), and increased enforcement measures internally and at the border.
Today's "haystack" is composed of nearly 10 million people who are living, working, and sometimes studying in American communities. A quick calculation shows that, even under the most favorable assumptions, a strategy designed to bring the unauthorized population to publicly acceptable levels that utilized only enforcement and deportation would require tens of billions of dollars, decades of time, and significant damage to the nation's concept of civil and other rights. It would also require equally heroic assumptions about the United States' ability to keep new would-be illegal entrants out.  

Many of the assumptions that are now driving the formation of US immigration policy are directly inspired by migration from Mexico
  Another option, a national registration of unauthorized immigrants, has also gained support among members of Congress. Such a registration program would be combined with a meaningful promise for some sort of regularization that would allow unauthorized immigrants to remain in the country. Under the plan described by President Bush, the permission to stay legally would be contingent upon employment and initially last for three years, with the possibility of renewal.
Such strategies pose considerable challenges. The utility of such an effort depends greatly on the level of participation: a regularization effort that leaves millions of people unregistered still leaves a considerable security problem. For this reason, policymakers should consider whether their regularization proposals offer enough incentives so that most immigrants will register. A regularization program that allows only temporary stays is not likely to prove a sufficient inducement for many immigrants, who may intend to stay permanently, or who fear that registration could be used against them in other ways.
The level of participation in the regularization program will also influence the success of broader efforts to control illegal immigration. When Congress enacted IRCA in 1986, it thought of regularization only as an amnesty, and extended its pardon to those who could demonstrate that they had been in the United States "continuously" since before January 1, 1982. When the law was finally implemented in November, 1986, the previous five years of illegal arrivals did not qualify for regularization. At the same time, however, they had little incentive to leave (see related article).

this is from a religious group involved with ''illegals''.


http://www.rtfcam.org/report/volume_21/No_3/article_4.htm

note the following paragraphs:

Many experts say that, given the current climate of economic need and lack of work in Mexico and Central America, no matter how many people die in the effort to migrate, more will attempt the journey. "Unfortunately, people’s lives are so desperate that they won’t stop coming they’ll just keep trying," said Rick Ufford-Chase of BorderLinks, a Tucson based public awareness group. "It’s simply not possible to carry enough water across the desert." Chase further stated: "We’ve made the act of looking for a better job in the United States a crime that carries the death penalty with it." (AP, 5/25/01)

These policies, in addition to causing deaths, also have the unintended impact of keeping many migrants inside of the United States rather than periodically returning to Mexico or Central America to visit or to live. Traditionally, the migrant flow between the US and Mexico has been a circular one, with individuals frequently moving in and out of the country. Deterrence-based policies have made the journey back so expensive and risky that many formerly seasonal workers no longer see the trip back to Mexico as worth the cost.

[That Dude]

21. Time to legalize all of them

http://www.lp.org/issues/immigration.shtml

In 1989, the U.S. Department of Labor reviewed nearly 100 studies on the relationship between immigration and unemployment and concluded that "neither U.S. workers nor most minority workers appear adversely affected by immigration."


WHAT A CROCK OF SHIT. When an employer can hire an illegal - someone who can be exploited - for less than half of what he pays a documented worker than there goes a job. Period. The fact that 1989 was 17 years ago is beside the point. It's the Walmart theory - cheaper wins but we all pay the price. FYI some people argue Walmart is great for our economy. Do you? It's not native against immigrant it's documented versus undocumented. Take away the undocumented exploitable worker and the labor market has a better opportunity to achieve a better wage\living standard. Period. Legalize them all and let them join unions and march for living wages. That would be spectacular.

[xchrom]

23. i don't argue with legalize all of them.

but i do argue that the impact may not be what eveyone wants it to be for the sake of their argument.

please see the calculations on how these immigrant numbers are both manipulate and how a more realistic way of calculating them would look.

[sadiesworld]

58. Then why is that argument never made by those of you who defend

illegal immigration? Why don't you argue for increased LEGAL immigration as opposed to a guest worker program or turning a blind eye (and calling anyone who disagrees a racist) to illegal immigration?

[xchrom]

64. get over your self -- i didn't call you a racist.

and i'm not arguing against greater legal immigration -- in fact i think our relationship with mexico is very special and demands very favorable attention.

i have not said specifically how i think any particular thing should work.

but i have pointed out some facts -- like legal immigration also has an influence on the stagflation of american workers.

as does the influence of high wage workers from europe.

and provided evidence.

i suggest you do some homework and do the same before you jump up someone's ass and die next time.

[sadiesworld]

95. "...before you jump up someone's ass and die next time..."

Typical.

BTW, that's quite the collection of dated studies, libertarian think-tank claptrap, and pure RW propaganda you've got going there.

[xchrom]

101. and where the fuck are your links?

there are also equations regarding figuring the labour.

there are liberal sites as well.

i argue on behalf of the immigrants -- both legal and illegal and you accuse me of being a racist --
quite the liar aren't you?

i'm extremely pro-labour -- who argues for a very close and expansive relationship with mexico.

you on the other hand wave your ignorance around like a freeper waving the flag at a tailgate for g.w. bush and trent lott reunion.


i have to edit -- you thought i accused you of being a racist -- what ever -- you were lying.

[sadiesworld]

106. "...wave your ignorance around like a freeper waving the flag

at a tailgate for g.w. bush and trent lott reunion"

I'm glad you aren't one of those posters who calls anyone who opposes illegal immigration a racist. LOL

FYI: Liberal doesn't necessarily equal pro-labor and * is quite eager to hand a guest worker program to his corporate base.

Enjoy your cocktails.

[xchrom]

108. more links for you

while you wave your right wing creds around

http://www.migrationinformation.org/USFocus/display.cfm?ID=210

the above link and the following paragraphs underscore the need of fairly free movment between the the u.s. and mexico.
and it also underscore what is a very intimate relationship.

Leg One: Accounting for the current immigrant population.
The domestic security agenda established after September 11 has cast the longstanding and growing unauthorized population in the US in a new light—as a potential hiding place for terrorists. Analysts talk about the challenges of finding the "needle in the haystack" and hotly debate the appropriate and constitutionally sound ways to make that haystack significantly smaller. Ideas have included registration, deportation (focusing initially on criminal immigrants), and increased enforcement measures internally and at the border.
Today's "haystack" is composed of nearly 10 million people who are living, working, and sometimes studying in American communities. A quick calculation shows that, even under the most favorable assumptions, a strategy designed to bring the unauthorized population to publicly acceptable levels that utilized only enforcement and deportation would require tens of billions of dollars, decades of time, and significant damage to the nation's concept of civil and other rights. It would also require equally heroic assumptions about the United States' ability to keep new would-be illegal entrants out.  

Many of the assumptions that are now driving the formation of US immigration policy are directly inspired by migration from Mexico
  Another option, a national registration of unauthorized immigrants, has also gained support among members of Congress. Such a registration program would be combined with a meaningful promise for some sort of regularization that would allow unauthorized immigrants to remain in the country. Under the plan described by President Bush, the permission to stay legally would be contingent upon employment and initially last for three years, with the possibility of renewal.
Such strategies pose considerable challenges. The utility of such an effort depends greatly on the level of participation: a regularization effort that leaves millions of people unregistered still leaves a considerable security problem. For this reason, policymakers should consider whether their regularization proposals offer enough incentives so that most immigrants will register. A regularization program that allows only temporary stays is not likely to prove a sufficient inducement for many immigrants, who may intend to stay permanently, or who fear that registration could be used against them in other ways.
The level of participation in the regularization program will also influence the success of broader efforts to control illegal immigration. When Congress enacted IRCA in 1986, it thought of regularization only as an amnesty, and extended its pardon to those who could demonstrate that they had been in the United States "continuously" since before January 1, 1982. When the law was finally implemented in November, 1986, the previous five years of illegal arrivals did not qualify for regularization. At the same time, however, they had little incentive to leave (see related article).

this is from a religious group involved with ''illegals''.


http://www.rtfcam.org/report/volume_21/No_3/article_4.htm

note the following paragraphs:

Many experts say that, given the current climate of economic need and lack of work in Mexico and Central America, no matter how many people die in the effort to migrate, more will attempt the journey. "Unfortunately, people’s lives are so desperate that they won’t stop coming they’ll just keep trying," said Rick Ufford-Chase of BorderLinks, a Tucson based public awareness group. "It’s simply not possible to carry enough water across the desert." Chase further stated: "We’ve made the act of looking for a better job in the United States a crime that carries the death penalty with it." (AP, 5/25/01)

These policies, in addition to causing deaths, also have the unintended impact of keeping many migrants inside of the United States rather than periodically returning to Mexico or Central America to visit or to live. Traditionally, the migrant flow between the US and Mexico has been a circular one, with individuals frequently moving in and out of the country. Deterrence-based policies have made the journey back so expensive and risky that many formerly seasonal workers no longer see the trip back to Mexico as worth the cost.

the below is an estimation of more restrictive policies -- more restrictive than they are now.
please note the immigration problem became the eggrigous problemt that it has when migrants couldn't more freely return at will.

As Congress debates immigration reforms, some experts say the most extreme proposal — deporting millions of illegal immigrants — would be a huge legal and logistical morass, and ruinously expensive, too.
Officials at the Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency, which would be responsible for deportations, said they have no projections on what it would take to rid the United States of an estimated 12 million people.
But the Center for American Progress, a liberal think tank in Washington, has put the cost at $215 billion over five years.
The study assumed that a crackdown would prompt a quarter of the nation's illegal immigrants to leave voluntarily, leaving 9 million men, women and children to deport.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060407/ap_on_re_us/immigra...

you lack all credibility -- you've lied about what i've said for anybody who cares to read any of this.

you take a stand freepers would be proud of -- and think to project that on me.

not only did you manage jump up into someone's ass -- you some how found alice's looking glass while there and walked through.

[Minnesota Libra]

17. I'm sorry but not everyone who believes in supporting our country.........

....is a neocon/fundie bigot.:spank: Some people don't even focus on just one country as your article does:puke:, some people actually feel that anyone coming to this country from anywhere should show a little respect by flying the flag of this land and not defame our flag.:patriot:

What is so hard to understand about that???:eyes:

[tocqueville]

19. who is "defaming" the US flag ? How ?

why is it so FUCKING sensitive if someones flies another flag than the American flag on US soil ?

How come OTHER countries (European) don't feel that way ? See my other posts...

Is it only OK during the Olympics ?

what are you afraid of ?

something is very fishy here....

It has nothing to do with supporting your own country and showing patriotism. If you are secure in your patriotism, other countries flags are welcome too because they display a cultural identity, celebrate an event...

What are you afraid of ? why clutch to teh own flag and "forbid" others ? Take them as an "insult"...

are OTHER COUNTRIES AVATARS threatening Democratic Undergound ? I have seen Irish, Canadian, British for the most. Some are not even citizens in the US but allowed to post here. Isn't that a display of American freedom of expression...?

If this is the free America you defend, how come a Mexican flag (or another) be SO THREATENING ????? "DEFAMING" ?

beats me...

[Minnesota Libra]

28. I agree, there is indeed something..............

....very fishy here. No one has a problem with any variety of flags on Holidays such as; Columbus Day, St Patrick's Day, Cinco De Mayo, October Fest, and on and on.:bounce:

What many people do have a problem with is defaming the flag. People have fought and died for the freedoms that flag represents so for no other reason than that, the flag should be held in respect.:patriot:

Yes, I know, those doing or condoning the defaming of our flag will of course disagree. My question for them is why do they (from anywhere in the world) want to be in our country earning our money if their allegiance is elsewhere?

I would NEVER consider going to another country and fly the American flag above that country's flag or defame their flag in any way. That would be out and out disrespect.

[RagingInMiami]

30. When was the last time you've been to another country?

Excluding Canada, of course.

[tocqueville]

68. never been to Canada

but I know that flying other flags than your own isn't a big deal in Europe, and I've been around a lot

[RagingInMiami]

73. The question was directed at Minnesota Libra, who said ...

"I would NEVER consider going to another country and fly the American flag above that country's flag or defame their flag in any way. That would be out and out disrespect."

She equates the waving of the Mexican flag as defamation of the American flag. But having observed her responses to the whole immigration issue during the past week, I find it highly improbable that she has ever left this country. Of course, Canada is right across the Minnesota border, so I don't count that.

[tocqueville]

75. my mistake...

agrees completely with you for the rest



US students defaming the Union Jack

"Every year, the University is delighted to welcome new students from partner institutions across Europe and from the United States. The strong links that have developed with partners and the significant numbers of their students who have successfully studied at this University ensure that prospective exchange students will have a rewarding and exciting experience in Scotland."

[tocqueville]

72. I think that there are plenty of misunderstandings here

1) flying your country of origin flag to show cultural heritage isn't defaming the country you are in. Guests from other countries can fly their own flags to show support for the country they are visiting or are resident in. Or simply to show their heritage as said.

2) a lot of people are in another country because it's a way of making money. It profits them and the country that grant them a staying permit. It doesn't mean that the heart of these people belongs to the new country. Partly maybe, but not as a whole. So your statement is plainly WRONG : it's not YOUR money, it's THEIRS since they EARN IT THROUGH HARD LABOUR for the benefit of the US AND their own. There is nothing wrong with that. Or is the fact that these people HAVE NO CHOICE other than emigrate, but don't want to become citizens (for plenty of reasons) so hard to understand ?

4) don't assume automatically that somebody moving to another country is going to embrace the values of the guest country. As a guest you have to respect the local laws and habits. As a host country you have to make sure that the guests are equally treated, except for some rights like voting. Besides, if you are a permanent resident, in most European countries you have the right to vote in local elections, since you pay local taxes.

5) Who has been flying a foreign flag OVER the American one ? show me a single case. It would mean tearing down an American flag from an official pole and REPLACE it with another country's. Flying a couple of flags in a demonstration is not defaming anything. Have any Mexicans been burning American flags in the US ? I think not.

6) you are welcome to fly an American flag in France or another European country if you want to show a demands a group (and plenty of locals people would probably support you if your demand is justified) or simply manifest your support as a group. It's your right of expression.

7) if the sight of a couple of foreign flags in a demonstration causes such a problem, there is a serious identity problem in the US. Is the bottom thought - "you live here, but don't want to become American, so fuck you" - anything else than misplaced patriotism ?

[Bridget Burke]

39. Good question--I've got a suggestion....

Below, you see a quite proper use of the Flag. But these soldiers would still be alive if it were not for the Chicken Hawk who loves to wrap himself in the Red White & Blue.

[RagingInMiami]

77. And the irony of this is

We're not even allowed to see those flag-draped caskets. While in England they hold a ceremony for the fallen soldiers where Prince Charles stands and salutes the flag-draped caskets, and the band plays whatever song it is they play, we whisk our fallen soldiers under the carpet.

Where is the outrage there?

[bee]

79. I'd also like to know the answers to these questions. Very much. n.t

[RagingInMiami]

29. The shrub has defamed our flag

Not the Mexicans.

Why is that so hard to understand???:eyes:

[entanglement]

81. So flying the Mexican flag automatically defames ours?

How does that make sense? Why don't you just confess that you hate immigrants and be done with it, it would be a lot easier.

[RagingInMiami]

82. Well that wouldn't be too "progressive"

But bitching about the Mexican flag makes you appear "patriotic".

[ProudDad]

89. Piss on all flags!

Piss on all "nations".

I am a citizen of the world. I don't owe allegiance to any stupid construct called a "country"!

[The Wizard]

20. The new Southern Strategy

This is just an extension of Nixon's Southern Strategy. The Republican approach should be evident to all by now. By appealing to the worst fears and lowest instincts of knuckle draggers they ensure a certain number of their idiot followers will come out and vote. It's really very simple: find a minority, exploit the perceived differences and hammer away at the fear of those who appear different. Hitler and Goebbels did it with great success, but at some point the realization that they're coming for me next hits the majority. The National Socialist was a political party in Germany, just like the (fill in the blank) is in the United States. Some say the (fill in the blank) Party employs the same tactics and endorses the same philosophy as Germany's National Socialists. We can only make that judgment by observing their actions and taking notes. If the jackboot fits.............

Oh hell, get the brown shirts out of mothballs and warm up the ovens. Happy days are here again. :sarcasm:

[underpants]

32. Look even further back-Bacon's Rebellion

Bacon's Rebellion demonstrated that poor whites and poor blacks could be united in a cause. This was a great fear of the ruling class -- what would prevent the poor from uniting to fight them? This fear hastened the transition to racial slavery.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part1/1p274.html

[NativeTexan]

27. It is definitely about loyalty....but in Texas, there is a bit........

......of a difference. We had brave men, both Texian and Mexican who fought and died in places like the Alamo, to remove any allegiance to a Mexican flag. So, rightly or wrongly, it IS a little more personal for some of us natives.

[Bridget Burke]

37. Texians & TEJANOS fought for Texas Independence.

But most of the Revolutionary Tejanos were persecuted after the war. (Some Tejanos fought on the other side, too.)

This Texan is not afraid of the Mexican flag. For reasons of history & geography, Texas & Mexico will always have a special relationship.

Waving the Mexican flag today is more a matter of cultural pride than allegiance. I'm proud to come from a state with a rich multicultural history. The Instute of Texan Cultures is well worth a visit, next time you're in San Antonio.



www.texancultures.utsa.edu/public/index.htm

[Bridget Burke]

49. Since it's too late to edit....

Next time you visit the Alamo, look to the left as you enter the Chapel. Last time I visited, that room held flags representing each country that contributed Alamo defenders.

And this site about the Alamo puts the mission in the larger context--beyond That Battle. Hint: Its history did not begin under the Red, White & Blue. Of course, the Red White & Blue relevant to the Alamo is actually the Lone Star. As A Texan, I'm sure you already know that.

www.geocities.com/[e-mail]/adp/index.html



(Well, maybe not THAT Lone Star!)

[NativeTexan]

63. You are correct.

Since, in fact, Texas was a PART of Mexico, there were Mexicans that fought there. Mexico had welcomed American settlers to bring in more tax revenue. That was done under the Mexican Constitution of 1824, and before Santa Anna took power as dictator.

Mexicans, as well as Texians, were not happy about the self-described "Napolean-of-the-West" deciding to change the rules. So, you bet, brave Mexicans died. Some of Santa Anna's soldiers were said to have found family among the dead when the battle was over.

But, this is America now, and when someone, as happened I believe in the Dallas area, places the Mexican Flag, after all of this hullabaloo started, at the top of his flagpole, with the American Flag underneath it, followed by the Lone Star Flag of Texas......that crosses a line.

[Bridget Burke]

91. And the Slave Trade was illegal in Texas--per Mexican law...

"Texas Mexicans" were called Tejanos. They still are.

Yes, I saw the picture of a teenager ignorant of flag etiquette--taken from Michelle Malkin's site, I believe. But the bitching about Mexican flags carried in protests--along with American flags--is a Right Wing Talking Point.

[NativeTexan]

94. You are, of course, correct about the Tejano.....

...and the flag "etiquette" was a protest move. As far as a right-wing talking point? You are correct there. It is also a Texas talking point. Somethings transcend ideology to a lot of people here.

I am actually, as a moderate Dem, torn on this issue. I don't want to see families herded out back to Mexico. Actually, I would much rather see HARD ENFORCEMENT of the immigrant employment laws. Prison time for employers who ignor the law, for instance. And THEN if they pay a living wage, there MIGHT be a chance that there COULD be Americans who would do those jobs.

I do have a problem, somewhat, with allowing people who just happened to illegally enter the country, jump ahead of ALL potential immigrants who are trying to enter the country by the rules. Doing it legally should put THEM behind those who came illegally? And of course, I do have a problem with border security for sure. How can we protect the "homeland" as Bush likes to call it, if we can't control who comes into the country?

What it comes down to is....this is a VERY tough issue, post 9/11. It was difficult before, when it was mostly about jobs. Now it is a whole 'nuther situation, and there are no easy answers.

But....that's just me.

[Bridget Burke]

96. Please do NOT lecture me about Texas.

Immigration is a serious subject & it's worth serious discussion. But the Mexican Flag hysteria has become a Right Wing Talking Point. Please don't be fooled.

Were any who took down the planes on 9/11 carrying Mexican Flags?

[NativeTexan]

98. Nope...and it wasn't a lecture...just history to explain that I KNEW what

YOU were talking about, when you kept acting like I DIDN'T understand.
I originally was pointing out that there is a different culture here, but even as a native, I don't agree with it all. The problem is that I take time to UNDERSTAND the opposition so that when I make arguments in, for instance, my LTTE, that they NEVER fight back, because I know all of the angles.

I WANT to know WHY they think what they do, even though sometimes it is just the fact that they are FACISTS.

But, if you don't care enough to know both sides, then you are just following talking points like the opposition. TEXAS is NOT George W. Bush....the idiot was born in Connecticut. Texas is just a few votes away from swinging Democratic, and if everyone was a ONE ISSUE Dem, then we would be in bigger trouble than we have been.

Don't talk to ME like I don't understand, until YOU can argue more than just the fact that you don't agree. The problems we have had as a party, up until recently, is we talk about how BAD THEY are....and OMG they are BAD...but never seem to give any answers other than ELECT OUR GUYS!!

Immigration ties DIRECTLY in with 9/11......and the Mexican's, though not the terrorists, have the "system" on the border that I believe is being exploited by terrorists as we speak. And I also believe that some terrorists have come across illegally under the pretense of BEING Mexican...and that is as hard as you might think.

HAVE A NICE DAY.....thanks for responding.

[Bridget Burke]

99. I've only lived in Texas since I was four years old.

That's more than 50 years now. My mother was a native, though. Most of the Texans I know have no problem with the Mexican flag--perhaps we move in different circles.

9/11 is certainly an all-purpose excuse for just about anything.

[NativeTexan]

102. Not different circles at all....

...I never said that I HAD a problem with the Mexican Flag. I was just explaining to those NOT here that there are those in Texas that DO, and they aren't all right-wing zealots....although SOME are the same right-wing zealots that want to believe that Dubya walks on water or something.

I am not a hysterical Mexican flag hater. Not at all. I can just understand, to an extent, those who are complaining. Bring your culture when you come here, but EMBRACE the laws and the Constitution....that is ALL that I have ever wanted personally.

[Bridget Burke]

103. OK, OK....

I'm just getting tired of the pure-dee assholes who are posting at DU on the subject.

You're not one of them!

[NativeTexan]

113. Thanks

:)

[RaleighNCDUer]

62. Actually, that fight was to remove any allegiance to a nation that

had already outlawed slavery. Santa Ana was unwilling to compromise on the American landowners owning slaves, so they rebelled, just like the next generation would rebel against the US over the same issue.

[ProudDad]

87. Yeah, right

they fought and died to preserve their right to own SLAVES.

Piss on all flags.

[eppur_se_muova]

31. MEXICAN flag? Oh, I thought you said CONFEDERATE flag. What a relief!

"Is our democracy so in peril the presence of a flag other than ours constitutes an act worthy of a hate crime? If so, we have far bigger problems than immigration."

Maybe it is. Maybe we do.

[tjwash]

35. "Abortions for half, little plastic flags for everyone else."

Somehow that little blurb from "The Simpsons" seemed sort of apropos right now.

Don't forget that for some strange reason, Americans are completely hung up on symbolism. We can sit on our dead asses watch the freedoms that the flag represent erode into nothingness, and we are just fine as long as American Idol or Survivor is on TV. But, by god, if you threaten the SYMBOLISM of what our snuggly little vision of America is supposed to be, be prepared to watch the armchair pundits come crawling out of the woodwork to spew their vitriol and spittle in a thousand different directions.

I have lived in Malaysia, Thailand, the PI, and Ireland. I have also been on extended trips to Switzerland, Vienna, Munich, London, and Egypt. One thing thaI have noticed on my travels, is that outside of the World Cup and dictatorships using national pride to control its citizens, I think we are the only country get so damned frenzied when our cozy little symbols are challenged.
:wtf:

I don't know. To me it is almost shocking, because I got so used to it always being the neo-cons, and ultra right conservatives, that love to scream about "how awful it all is to put up with them damn foreigners going wherever they want, and ruining my beloved country" that it is extremely disturbing to see it here in DU, where I usually come for a rest from all that hatred. I guess that next I can expect to see the old "love it or leave it", and "why don't you move to (insert country that has socialized medicine, and functioning public transportation here) you damn pinko commie." To those of you that can't resist saying that, and keep posting again, and again, and again, and love the drama of acting as if we are under invasion from (insert country that has a different colored flag than ours here), I leave you with a little quote:

“The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.” ----Hermann Goering

Same bullshit different issue.

[Frank Cannon]

36. I don't get what they hope to accomplish by waving...

the Mexican flag around. Are they trying to drum up support for their cause, which I presume is to be treated with the same sort of dignity that "American" workers are supposedly treated? How does waving a Mexican flag around achieve that?

It kind of reminds me of that classic John Lennon lyric from Revolution: "If you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow."

[Bridget Burke]

38. It's called "pride"...

I miss John Lennon a lot. But I don't really want lessons on Revolution from a millionaire.

[Frank Cannon]

41. Millionaire or not...

he was right.

[Bridget Burke]

43. Hey, he married Yoko...

As much as I loved him, his judgement was not 100% right.

[Frank Cannon]

48. Love is deaf, blind, and stupid

It is sad, but that's just the way it is.

But regardless of Lennon's poor choice in spouses, he was correct on that one issue.

[RaleighNCDUer]

56. So what does revolutionaries not getting laid have to do with

anything?

These people were not espousing revolution. They were not deriding the USA.

They were saying, You cannot ignore us, you cannot criminalize us for simply existing.

[RagingInMiami]

60. Exactly

They were saying, "you may hate Mexicans, but guess what, we're proud of being Mexican."

[Frank Cannon]

69. The question I asked is still the same

And it's still, sadly, unanswered.

How does waving the Mexican flag around help the cause of these people?

Please understand, I'm not playing devil's advocate here. I SUPPORT their cause wholeheartedly. There wouldn't BE a United States if not for the contribution these people make to AMERICAN society. So shouldn't they be more productively demonstrating the important contribution they make in some other way?

Waving the Mexican flag around just isn't doing it! And the very fact that the mainstream media keeps showing the protesters waving those flags around should be telling you that it's a useless, failed strategy. It's working against them!

So please, please, please tell me the answer to the same question I've been asking in this forum, that no one seems able to answer: How does waving the Mexican flag around help the cause of these people?

[RagingInMiami]

71. Ask yourself this

If they were all waving American flags, as most of them do anyways, and not a single Mexican flag was being waved; would you suddenly warm up to the immigrants?

Would you suddenly roll out the red, white and blue carpet for your south-of-the-border neighbors?

Would you even attempt to indulge in their culture? (on Cinco de Mayo, of course. All other days, including Mexico's actual independence day of Sept. 16th, would be forbidden).

I suspect that the people who are bitching the Mexican flag-waving would be bitching about something else the Mexicans did if there were no flag-waving.

"Why do they all have to have such brown skin?"

[RaleighNCDUer]

74. Maybe the question should be

why do YOU have a visceral negative reaction to it?

I have no problem with it. At all. I was, in fact, moved by the show of solidarity. It didn't occur to me that there was any negative attached to it until I started seeing the flag deification posts here -- and saw the implication that if our flag is sacred then theirs is profane.

I cannot buy that mindset.

And I have answered my take on how it helps -- but to reiterate. These people are invisible to our daily life, regardless of how ubiquitous they may be. But when a hundred thousand of them take to the streets and many of them are waving the flag of their nation of origin they are NOT being invisible. They cannot be ignored. They must be heard.

I remember in 1970, the first time I was aware of a gay pride march, with the banners and outlandish outfits, I heard people saying "They're just hurting their cause, making themselves look bad". But what they did was get themselves noticed. They couldn't be hidden anymore.

Some people here have said they were being disrespectful. Have you ever heard of a respectful protest? The very act of protesting is disrespectful. It's meant to be. Do they have less right to fly the US flag upside down than I do? Or are they supposed to just accept their sub-par wages until the republican leadership pushes though the bill that will, with the stroke of a pen, create 11 million felons - meaning that even if they do become citizens at some point, they will still be unable to vote in many states. Pre-emptive disenfranchisement.

It's disgusting.

[Bridget Burke]

42. Just the latest Right Wing Talking Point....

Check out this link for even more issues soon to be pushed by fake DU'ers...

www.rightwingnews.com/

[kerry-is-my-prez]

44. we have a ton of mexican workers here- i'd rather have them than the reps

i've never seen them flying a foreign flag here. the republicans other the other hand annoy me by their yellow ribbons on thier gas-guzzling suv's.

[Bridget Burke]

50. If we could select certain "natives" ....

To be exchanged for some "illegals"--the USA might be better off. However, I don't know who would take them.

[sce56]

51. I guess he did not look closely at all of the flags flown by almost 2 mill

Oh yeah the stars and stripes were outnumbered in LA when from 1.5 to 2 million people, Illegal, natural born and legalized citizens marched to protest racist lawmkers!

pictures from http://la.indymedia.org

[Igel]

54. I've liked the

"We are indigenous! The _only_ owners of this continent" banner.

I'm sure the Algonquians would have felt great love for the Mexica, had they known them--after all, the Tlaxcala surely did. I know the Jumanos felt great ethnic solidarity with the Apaches and the Comanches, as well. The quintessential Romantic spirit: Alle Menschen werden Brueder!

Some Mexica still haven't given up their dreams of empire and oppression, however puny by today's (and, even medieval) standards theirs was.

[RagingInMiami]

55. It's amazing that we continue having this discussion

When those photos clearly prove that they have nothing but respect for the American flag.

I know I will get flamed for this, but in my opinion, the people who continue making an issue about the "Mexican flags" are nothing but xenophobes. And I wonder if they're the same people who claim to be Irish-American, Italian-American, German-American or whatever.

We are American, but most of us cherish our heritage and our ancestors. Why should it be any different if you come from Mexico?

I already know the answer I will get.

"It's because they're illegal."

Right. I'm sure that's all there is to it.:eyes:

[Bridget Burke]

59. The anti-immigrant crowd should have stuck with...

"It hurts the American worker." That argument has some validity, even though most of that crowd fails to show their Strong Labor Roots when discussing other topics.

This Mexican Flag controversy is a RIGHT WING TALKING POINT. No matter how many times they use it.

I agree that the "They're ILLEGAL!" bit is pretty damn old, too. (You forgot to capitalize ILLEGAL.)

[Cleita]

53. EXcellent article. Kudos.

Every DUer should read this.

:applause:

[sce56]

65. Mas Photos

[Sirveri]

61. torn.

The major issue I had with the article was this one statement.
'Is respecting other nations universal, or does it simply stop short of those nations with which the Republican Party has a problem?'

Both sides have been guilty of disrespect towards the other. When the Mexican flag was flown over the US flag on American soil, that was disrespectful. When random hillbillies run around burning Mexican flags because they hate Mexicans, that's racism and bigotry and the disrespect both those things are able to attempt to heap upon the Mexican flag.

Ultimately, this issue is about jobs. If enough Americans had enough work then nobody would care about this subject, because nobody would feel that they were getting screwed out of a job by illegal immigrants. But on our current race to the bottom of the wage market, we see more and more companies outsourcing and hiring illegals just to cut costs and it's screwing over a lot of the middle class. If I was worried about keeping a roof over my head and how I would afford food every month, I'd be pissed off too. The answer doesn't sit in flags or immigration control. It resides in the domain of punishing businesses who flout our laws and screw over the average American. But since we don't seem willing to do that, cut off the demand for illegal slave wage workers, various groups in this country decided to make controlling the supply of illegal workers a topic. Supply side economics don't work, and neither will supply side labor.

[Bridget Burke]

93. There was ONE PICTURE of the Mexican Flag above the US flag....

Michelle Malkin got ahold of the picture & made one teenager breaking the rules of flag etiquette a Right Wing Talking Point all over the country.

As a Texan, I'm quite used to seeing the Mexican Flag. It often flies next to the Lone Star Flag. Sometimes the US Flag is included--if so, it's given pride of place.

If you ever visit San Antonio, check out the Institute of Texan Cultures. www.texancultures.utsa.edu/public/index.htm

[Wapsie B]

66. Excellent post!

:thumbsup:

[judaspriestess]

78. DONT FUCKING EAT THE MEXICAN FOOD EITHER THEN

Jesse Jackson made a very good point, It was OK when the "illegals" were picking tomatoes and hiding in the corners right? but now because they have raised their voices PEACEFULLY now America has a problem, fuck that, don't eat the mexican food either. AND THE MAJORITY OF "MEXICANS" PAY TAXES, they have too to get a fucking payroll check!!!! HOW MANY AMERICANS DON'T PAY TAXES??? Quite a few, or the IRS wouldn't take peoples property!! Jesus Christ!!

I am astounded at the stupidity of people being so fucking worried about something that has ALWAYS been around. How can someone fall for the bullshit typical RED HERRING the pukes are throwing out there.

Read post #80 from me maybe this may give you some more insight!

[imlost]

83. As Mexican American, Thank you for such a great post.

I'm Mexican American. To say that I can't fly the Mexican flag along with the US flag is plainly old ignorant.

You mean to tell me if I fly the Mexican flag, then I'm not a patriot or I don't want to fight for my country, the USA.
It is absurd and smells of bigotry to me. All of you who are so focused on this wedge issue need to get a life and
find something more important to focus your anger at. Maybe you can go out and plant a tree, or help out at
a women's shelter. Do something meaningful instead of being so fearful.

In the meantime, this Monday when I go protest I will make sure I have my Mexican flag right along my side.
Anyone that doesn't like it can kiss my Mexican American ass!

[RagingInMiami]

85. Well you will probably appreciate this video

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=858050&mesg_id=858050

[imlost]

107. Thanks!

[eugene5debs]

84. Americans don't always do so well about their own symbols

I have noticed Americans might poke fun at other people being upset about their flags and symbols being presented unfavorably, but don't do so well themselves at times.

Maybe this is tongue in cheek, but it makes the point.

http://www.staggeron.org/universe.html#bush-cartoon

[ProudDad]

86. PISS ON ALL FLAGS

they're just bits of silly cloth to clothe the utter insanity of nationalism within.

piss on all flags, I say!

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

100. Hear, hear

(He posts with his UK flag avatar. Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself.)

"I was over in Australia and I was asked, ?Are you proud to be an American,? and I was like, ?I don?t know. I didn?t have a lot to do with it, you know. My parents fucked there, that?s about all. You know, I was in the spirit realm at the time. 'Fuck in Paris! Fuck in Paris!' but they couldn?t hear me, cos I didn?t have a mouth. I was a spirit without lungs or a mouth or vocal cords. They fucked here. OK, I?m proud. I hate patriotism. I can?t stand it, man. Makes me fucking sick. It?s a round world last time I checked, OK? You know what I mean? I hate patriotism. In fact, that?s how we could stop patriotism, I think. Instead of putting stars and stripes on our flags, we should put pictures of our parents fucking. Gather people around that flag and see your dad hunched over your mom?s big four-by-four butt. See if any boot rally mentality can circle round that little fucking image."
- Bill Hicks

[ProudDad]

109. Bill Hicks was prescient

and died too damn young.

[McCamy Taylor]

90. Mexican BAD? Confederate GOOD? Gimme a break.

[judaspriestess]

97. So is everyone going to protest Eva Longoria

now since she is Tex-MEX???? She's on the cover of Maxim, quick burn the magazine!
:sarcasm:


As a Tex-Mex babe myself, I am so damn proud to be an American, but I also embrace my heritage. there is nothing wrong with that!!