Please Read This Excellent Pro-Kerry Piece by NSMA

[DoveTurnedHawk]

Teena rocks!

DTH

--

All in all, I believe he is the most well rounded experientially. From my prior post which was a combination advocacy/ defense post to another poster:

must say I have never considered Kerry's votes on IWR or the Patriot Act purely political. Some people feel that way, I don't.

Re: The Patriot Act, it filled gaps that FISA left open and if you recall FISA warrants had been issued against one of the 9/11 suspects and a federal judge had rejected them in the past. The act itself is wrong and there are many problems with it but that is exactly why provisions were written in for the act to sunset.

Re: IWR - Kerry's position changed on IWR after a closed door meeting as did many senators and congresspeople including one of my own. There is an LBN thread detailing more info about OSP and how these agenst were pressured to accept evidence that was debunked and give it credence. IF these agents had previously testified credibly before Kerry (and odds are they did given he served on the Intelligence Committee for 18 years and some were senior agents) then it is entirely conceivable that he had to weigh their previous credibility against conflicting information and their current statements. He called it wrong. To people who expect him to explain more, it was a closed door meeting and he would be committing a federal crime to explain himself further.

To my knowledge, the only other times he gave his vote for military action were Bosnia and Somalia in his entire career. He did NOT vote for Gulf war 1.

Kerry's position on gay marriage is identical to Dean's. He supports civil unions and has MANY strong statements on the record rejecting bigotry against gay people.

For being an opportunist, he has a history of ferreting out government corruption. He almost ruined his career when investigating BCCI as a close friend of Carter's (Clark Clifford) became implicated. Clifford, it turns out had NOT committed a crime but he was persona non grata with high level Dems for Clifford even being referenced in the investigation

He only backed off from that investigation after Clinton ordered it dropped and there was no where else to go.

The two convicted felons in George Bush's administration, Elliot Abrahams and Otto Reich were convicted based on Kerry's investigative work which was then used by the special prosecutor in Iran Contra and Senator Inouye at the hearings to to indict them. It was HIS work that got those hearings accomplished and George Bush Sr's pardons that undermined further convictions as well as Bill Clinton's lack of political will to follow through.

His environmental record is better than most in the senate.

He pushed HARD for Kyoto (dropped unilaterally by the Bush admin) which would have resulted in less manufacturing jobs being shipped abroad since there in now no incentive for other countries to pass anti-pollution laws.

He has enforced (and written) tough banking laws onshore and offshore, which laws if not abandoned by the Bush admin would have made it far easier to trace laundered money in drugs, terrorism AND corporate crime...hardly the act of a corporate apologist.

And finally, I am 45 years old and for nearly ALL of my adult life John Kerry has been on the side of the issue with his votes that I value most...be it labor rights, women's rights, clean air, clean water, or darn near any other issue.

I further feel that his extensive knowledge of security matters and his long standing relatinship with the senate and congress will lead to greater cooperation to clean up the mess from this administration.

His plan on Iraq is not all that far apart from Dean..he is NOT for expanding the mission but for turning it over to the UN.

John Kerry is NOT at the mercy of oil companies.

He favors alternative energy sources.

[aldian159]

1. Good post

Very good post. Sometimes it is hard to hold my head up considering all the abject hatred for JK here, but NSMA helps make GD2004 less painful.

Good show.

[SinkingInTheRain]

2. Kerry destroyed Dean and it was disgusting

Kucinich and Dean will get my vote and Kerry can rot in his cheap shots against an honest Democratic candidate.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. I'm sorry Dean dropped out but this post is not factually accurate

and thanks, DTH. I hope it is helpful to you and others that would consider supporting Kerry.

If people wouldn't consider it anyway, I could post til my fingers were blue.

You can't win em all. ;-)

[NV1962]

8. That is a well-rounded and thoughtful approach

Quality post!

:toast:

(Does set my expectations high though: are you considering a run-down of the main issues? Helluvajob, but that would be very helpful and convincing, I think... Too often, Kerry is promoted as "well, you know... just because, you'll see when he wins!")

[Sly Kal]

33. It is accurate

Kerry was author of or at least approved of some of the ugliest campaigning I have ever seen.

[La_Serpiente]

4. You are quick to put so much blame on Kerry

It was Dean and Gephardt who were killing in each other in the battle fields of Iowa.

[Sly Kal]

34. Gephardt threw it for Kerry

after they collaborated on the Osama adds.

[oasis]

36. Can you subtantiate your accusations?

[MurikanDemocrat]

9. Oh for pity sakes

:eyes:

Nobody ran a MORE negative campaign than Dean did. Dean orchestrated his own downfall.

[Old and In the Way]

14. cheap shot?

Like this and a 1/2 dozen similar posts that you've made without one shred of proof or examples to back?

Sorry, I know a real cheap shot when I see it....I just responded to one.

[DarkPhenyx]

5. If it's by NSMA I hate it.

I think there is an ammoral impreative that says I must. :)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

6. ROFL!

Best laugh I ever got in THIS forum :-)

(better give your post the NSMA ;-) ;-) before someone sees it and alerts unneccessarily)

[DarkPhenyx]

7. Good point.

Though I think anyone who actually knows our history would get the joke. Goddess bless, I would hope they would at any rate.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

10. Yeah well

It isn't as though I run around in this forum with my sense of humor in plain view.

[DarkPhenyx]

11. Excellent point...

...and I do tend to run around this forum with my "ass" in plain view. Thank you for helping to defend my already horrid and tarnished reputation. :)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

12. The other day, somebody said you weren't fit to eat with pigs

I said you were.

Don't worry, I've got your back :D

[DarkPhenyx]

13. *rofl*

and I so want to know who that was too. You know that right?

Well, maybe not pigs. Definately whatever falls right below pigs though. I'm right there.

Weird as it sounds I don't mind you at my back. Not my first choice mind you, but I'd catch a few winks of sleep.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

15. NSMA (and other Californians) check out this comment from dailykos:

"Kerry combines the ruthless, driven, hard-nosed campaigning style of Gray Davis with the personal charm, charisma, and warmth of Gray Davis."

You like?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

17. I disagree with it but it also is prudent to note that until the recall

Davis had never lost an election and it is also prudent to note you can't recall presidents.

Perhaps once Kos is done ruminating over the loss of his preferred candidate, he'll actually focus on helping us win instead of tearing us down.

And since you mention Davis, a word to the disgruntled Dems from this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=358439&mesg_id=359780

[NewYorkerfromMass]

19. I read that. You should have been on his campaign

if you in fact weren't. The man sounds like a Democratic dynamo. The kind of gov. Dukakis was in Massachusetts.
Who cares about personality when you're getting the job done and doing it well?

Here's more from kos comparing JE and JK (these are posters BTW not kos):

"...there are different kinds of "Like." In addition to the more common "adoration" there's "respect" or "admiration."
If there was nothing approaching some form of likeability in Kerry, he'd never have made it this far.

Sure Edwards stomps him on Hollywood-style candlepower. The guy's even better than Clinton (there....I said it.) But people I think see him as young and not experienced enough yet. That's not my personal take, but my read of the electorate.

Conventional likeability is always an asset. But it's not everything. Plenty of voters have seen the two up close and chosen Kerry."

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

20. I genuinely LIKE Edwards but I am not willing to hand over

the reigns to him based on likability. I'm also not willing to hand over the nations foreign policy to a guy who makes statements such as 9/11 was the reason for the IRaq war. At least Kerry maintains he was lied to NOT that pre-emptive war was justified in this case.

Overall, I'd like to see a few more years behind Edwards and am not comfortable with the fact that he began campaigning for president literally from the moment he reached the Senate.

That said...if the remainder of the states choose him over Kerry..I'll have no choice since not voting and third parties are not viable options in my mind.

[NV1962]

25. I hail this nuclear powerhouse of insight and swift penmanship

...as piddle.

Written like a veritable Colossus of Political Prose: too big and clumsy hands to hit the right keys, and with an argument carried by legs so far apart thats entire ships can sail through them.

[arwalden]

16. So... I'm Getting The Sense That You Approve Of Kerry?

I'm often a little slow on the up-take... but this sounds as though you kinda like the guy and he's not the corporate beholden insider establishment demon that the liberal idealogical purists would make him out to be.

This is good news. Thanks for the effort and great post!
-- Allen

[XanaDUer]

18. Thank you, NSMA

Fine post. :)

[Zomby Woof]

21. I concur

Teena rocks, and this forum would be at a sorry deficiency without her. :toast:

[MurikanDemocrat]

22. I thought pro-Kerry pieces were off-limits here??

:)

[NightNurse]

30. Did I make A WRONG turn? A Positive Kerry Piece?

As someone wrote from "out there" at a REAL Caucus, rather than in the cacophonous,echo chamber of PU..Dem's are happy, energized and willing to support either of the front runners.:yourock:

A note to the umbrage absorbing Dean folk: If you're NOT voting for DK now, and instead going with Edwards? You've thus wrapped yourself in the stench filled cloak of Good Old Boys Hypocrisy.:wow:

GOOD luck to the 2 Johns!

[David Zephyr]

23. Teena's Piece Is Indeed Excellent, DTH.

I agree with her wholeheartedly when she writes about the Patriot Act the following: "The act itself is wrong." Yep. No doubt about it.

A minor, yet important note is that John Kerry did also vote for waging George H. Bush's war in Panama.

NSMA and BLM are both very intelligent, quick wits who frame the finest qualities of John Kerry better than just about anyone else at the DU.

I have the "John Kerry Classic Editions" myself. The "Greatest Hits" from all those years are truly inspiring. His vote against the first Gulf War was admirable. His vote against DOMA was inspiring. His record here on the environment has been noble. His protection of a woman's reproductive rights courageous. His fight against the illegal war in Vietnam heroic. His voice speaking out against the illegal war in Nicaragua in the 1980's more than endearing to me.

But, his intentional dodging the question of whether or not the U.S.'s invasion of Iraq should have happened is not Kerry Classic. It's worse than New Coke.

Now in all fairness to the good Senator, I should state the following:

He's made it clear that he "was misled".

He's made it clear that he wanted Bush to "exhaust" all other avenues before going to war.

He's made it clear that he wanted to "build a larger coalition" of nations before going to war with Iraq.

He's made it clear that there should have been a "better post-war plan" to deal with the aftermath of the war.

But, unlike Senator Dianne Feinstein, who like Kerry voted for the Iraqi War Resolution, he has not ever said that the war itself was not necessary to contain Saddam Hussein. He's never said the war itself was wrong.

And all of the glib verbal dodges by Kerry will not make up for the vacuum that still is there.

Was the war necessary? Should we have gone to war with Iraq?

Simple questions. The silence is deafening...and hurting John Kerry's candidacy.

I have a thread commending Senator Feinstein's honesty in her speech on the Senate Floor on her IWR vote and again last week when speaking to Colin Powell that she also felt betrayed by the White House and that in hindsight that Bush would not have gotten the 77 votes he did in the Senate without the lies and exaggerations from the White House. She said the war itself had not been necessary.

And, Feinstein is right. The War was not necessary.

Iraq was divided into no-fly zones. The inspection process was working. There was an even a cruel (in my opinion) embargo on Iraq. We now know that Saddam had no WMD. None.

There is a brewing civil war between the three rival peoples in what was Old Iraq. Nothing can be constructed to prevent the coming Civil War. The Kurds will not submit to a majority rule by the Shiites who will align themselves with Iran. The Turks will never permit the Kurds to have an autonomous state of their own.

Even Israel is further jeopardized by the vacuum the U.S. has created in Iraq. Al Queda is now operating in Iraq.

Kerry should either say that the War was the right thing to do or the wrong (unnecessary, if he wishes) thing to do.

I have no irrational thoughts that Kerry's DU supporters can make their candidate speak to this. I honor their support of their candidate.

I'd preferred he'd voted with Senator Boxer and the others in the Senate against the IWR. But, I guess we will never know if he feels as Senator Feinstein does now that the War could have been avoided altogether.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

24. Kerry has said it himself and I agree

Confronting Saddam was the right thing to do.
It was a simple matter of checking his WMD status. It didn't have to end in a war. It was simple matter of turning over all the rocks and moving on to other potential security threats.

[Armstead]

27. The problem was playing both sides

Kerry (my Senator) totally lost me that day of the vote.

It was like handing thje keys to a drunk driver and then saying he had no idea it would cause an accident.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

26. I have faith that he will address it and that he is more than an artful

dodger.

I apologize and didn't recall the Panama vote but thought he was one of the few that voted against it.

You might recall he DID sponsor legislation to close the SOA in the past so I would think that would count for something with you since you did like Clark who called for it to remain open.

http://www.umb.edu/news/1997news/reporter/ureporter1197/bourgeois.html

BTW....the line keeps moving on what he needs to say about Iraq for people who don't plan on voting for him anyway.

I do respect your principles in the matter (and I don't mean that insincerely) but is there really anything he can do?

If not, then it is incumbent upon you to admit that there is nothing he can do or say to win your support.

[NV1962]

28. Thank you

Thank you for this opportunity to present this counterweight to the persistent idea that atrocities (which I admit, no reserve) committed by some 500 former graduates of the SOA, lastly and mostly by Reagan's command, have neither a baring on the current SOA/WHISC or its useful role in the OAS, and much less so on Wesley Clark who you mentioned.

[regnaD kciN]

32. I hope you're right...

...but it seems to me that he has addressed it. Unfortunately, he's done so several different and not-very-compatible ways, depending on whether the news from Iraq seems to be getting worse ("I was misled!") or better (claiming that this proves he was right to vote for us "holding Saddam Hussein accountable"). And that's not even counting his "explanation" the day of the vote that essentially said that his vote was really for a limited version of the IWR that, apparently, only existed in Kerry's mind, not for the actual blank-check language of the bill that his vote had helped pass.

:crazy:

What can he do that would cause me to regain my previous respect for him? As a preliminary step, he could stop the weasel-phrases like the aforementioned "holding Saddam Hussein accountable." What, exactly, does that mean? Does it mean "finding and destroying any WMDs he may have," or does it mean "removing him from power even if he posed no threat to us?" In my more cynical moments, it seems to me that he has latched onto that phrase precisely because it will mean different things to different people: to the pro-war voter, it will mean "we had to do something to take Saddam out," to the anti-war voter, it will mean "all I was in favor of was disarming Saddam of any weapons that could threaten us." I want straight talk, not weasel-words.

But, when it comes down to it, what he can do is clearly, publicly and unambiguously answer the question posed to him in an excellent article by Jonathan Schell at Common Dreams (http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0213-08.htm): "If you knew then what you know now about Iraq's weapons program, would you have voted for the resolution?" No equivocation, no lengthy speeches, and especially no weasel-words about "holding accountable." Just a simple "yes" or "no," and only that, will suffice.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

35. I can't blame Kerry for not getting boxed in by people wishing

to do so. Perhaps he will answer it.

With regard to Saddam, while I continue to think the war was unjust, troops were already moved and even DU'ers shipped out to the region before the first vote was cast or the ink was dry on IWR.

Saddam DID hedge to begin with with the inspections and in doing so gave Bush greater leverage to claim he was hiding something.

[Tweed]

29. Can't wait to vote for Kerry

[Dr Fate]

31. I'm voting straight DEM in 2004...n/t

n/t

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

37. I'm not shocked