Will there be a role for Kucinich when the smoke clears?

[littlejoe]

I'll come clean. I admire Denis Kucinich. He is probably the most principled candidate we have. I think he is simply unelectable. Really principled men find it nearly impossible to lead effectively. Just ask Jimmy Carter.

But I believe that Kucinich is far too valuable of a man to languish in the House of Representatives, once his candidacy is over.

So, when Kerry Beats Bush in November, what role do you think Denis Kucinich should play in the new administration?

[dtseiler]

1. Agreed

I would love to see DK in a role to put his energy views into motion. Despite my Kerry Kampaigning, I voted for Kucinich in the Wisconsin primary.

[IrateCitizen]

2. None. Being in an administration would effectively shackle him.

People in an administration take their cues from the President. They are there to serve at the President's request, and to further the President's views.

Frankly, seeing Dennis Kucinich in a cabinet position would be, IMHO, a huge loss -- because he would be forced to conform to the views of the President.

In case you didn't notice, Dennis is not a mere Congressman "languishing in the House". He is the co-chair of the Progressive Caucus, and spearheaded the effort to get over 1/2 of the Congressional Democrats to vote against the IWR.

Personally, I'd like to see him make a run at an OH Senate seat in the future. But one thing is for certain -- people like Dennis Kucinich are not meant to serve just one person. They're meant to serve the PEOPLE. The only ways they can do this is either through elected office, or organizing efforts. Putting Dennis Kucinich in a cabinet position would be the equivalent of putting him in a cage in this respect.

[littlejoe]

4. By serving the president he would be serving the people.

I would like to see him have an opportunity to formulate policy on the environment, or on trade. I believe he could be more effective in that capacity, than in congress.

[IrateCitizen]

8. In case you want to know how this phenomenon works...

... just look at the recent case surrounding Paul O'Neil.

O'Neil has cited numerous times that the reason that he DIDN'T speak out was because he was serving in the cabinet, and as a member of the cabinet, his job was to represent the administration.

If Kerry, assuming he gets the nomination and is elected, chooses to remain in Iraq, do you think that Dennis Kucinich will be free and clear to speak directly AGAINST administration policy as a member of the cabinet? Of course he won't.

By serving the President, a cabinet member is serving the President. It's not like these people are voted in. Hell, they aren't even determined until after the election, and the incoming administration begins preparing to take office. Considering this fact, how can you say that they are representing the people? They're not. While the President is theoretically elected to be an officer of the people, the cabinet members are appointed by the President to act as his staff.

[littlejoe]

18. To a large degree he would be serving the president. But.....

if I could teach you a little something, a cabinet secretary has a great deal of discretion in formulating and carrying out policy that is in line with the president's vision. It has always been that way.

Since a president does not have the time or inclination to micro-manage the government, they rely heavily on their cabinet secretari9es to act on their message, whatever that message may be.

[IrateCitizen]

20. You're merely confirming my point, littlejoe

... if I could teach you a little something, a cabinet secretary has a great deal of discretion in formulating and carrying out policy that is in line with the president's vision. It has always been that way.

First off, you're not "teaching" me anything. You are simply presenting your opinion wrapped in some condescending rhetoric. Teaching requires concrete facts and examples -- none of which you provided.

Secondly, you confirmed my point by acknowledging that policy must be "in line with the president's vision." So, I'll ask you again, would Dennis Kucinich be completely free to campaign for an end to our occupation of Iraq, if he were in a Kerry administration that did not share the same views?

[littlejoe]

28. I can tell by your answers that you haven't had much experience

at this politics thing.

[Desertrose]

36. my my...and I can tell by your replies that.....

you don't know much about Dennis Kucinich.

I love the way you can tell how much experience posters have in politics...wow.

DR

[littlejoe]

55. It comes with age, and a keen intellect.

[Mairead]

76. And modest with it.

:)

[littlejoe]

79. Anything but modest.

[IrateCitizen]

87. Are you interested in providing facts, or merely condescension?

Judging by your responses, you have none of the former, so you resort to the latter in hopes that smug self-importance will provide the facade of informed insight. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm calling it what it is rather than allowing you to successfully play out your little charade.

BTW, as someone with so much experience at this "politics thing", on what insider views are you basing your postulates on the power of a cabinet official? In what administration did you serve?

[cosmicdot]

5. so, if someone else is sitting in The White House other than Dennis ...

... who would assign Dennis to an unencumbered task force, job or position with license to implement his platform and ideas? I can't think of one off-hand ... I doubt if any of his rivals would want their policies overshadowed ... I do believe, however, that whatever he does ... Dennis is doing it for the country and world's benefit ...

[littlejoe]

6. It's not unforseeable. It happens more than you might think.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

3. I'd like to see him as Whip

Perfect role for him countering DeLay.

[JoePizz]

7. Actually, I think he would be quite electable

I just don't think he can win the primary.

Here's the thing- The democratic strategy for the last few years has been to run up the middle and try to get the so-called "swing voters" that make up roughly 10% of the people who bother to vote- maybe 5 million or so people.

I think this is a losing strategy, because it plays into the republican hands. The fewer people that vote, the better they do. Why? Because right wingers and republicans NEVER forget to vote or choose to simply not vote this time.

It is primarily the left and the disheartened left-of-center people who don't bother to vote. I think Kucinich would appeal to them in a way no candidate has in a long time. I think he could easily draw an extra 5, 10, or possibly 15 million people into voting who didn't vote in the last few elections.

Why? His record is outstanding as a man of principal and honesty. He has concrete plans on how to fix things, not just the idea that things are broken. There are 42 million people without healthcare. Many of them do not vote. He not only promises single payer universal health care (assuming he would get a somewhat friendly congress), but he tells people how he will do it. I think that alone could easily bolster the democratic vote across the board in all elections to the point that even traditionally "safe" republican seats would be up for grabs.

Alas, I doubt he could ever win the primary, because it has basically come down to the media as to who is allowed to be known and who is not. Too many registered democratic voters that I know heave never even heard of him.

Perhaps the Dean supporters would be kind enough to bolster his ranks. If they voted Kucinich in the remaining primary's, then maybe - just maybe- he would have enough to derail Kerry and become the nominee.

[MuseRider]

9. Welcome.

You post the truth but somehow it does not fly around here. We keep on keeping on just like Kucinich with hope in our hearts and a lot of work.

[JoePizz]

11. Considering Kucinich's background, we can do no less

I would think that the fact he beat an incubant republican to get his house seat- in what was considered a safe republican seat. He won something like 70% of the vote in his last election.

Quite a feat for such a left wing candidate when supposedly the voters want centrists.

Truth be told, I think most of the people of the US would rather vote for an honest politician and a decent human being rather than vote by idealogy. It's just that the republicans have lied to the public about about all democrats being lying scum and people have come to think that way.

I think it was Hermann Goering (I can't spell German names, so please forgive me) who said a lie repeated often enough becomes the truth.

Maybe it was Orwell in 1984? Maybe both.

[MuseRider]

12. Preaching to the choir here!

I agree except that I do not see him as a left wing candidate. Can you imagine what the press would do since they considered Dean as left as you can go? I think he is from the "makes sense" wing (we should think of a name for that). Just a good man looking to do good things for all people and the planet we inhabit. So we are now preaching to each other.

[JoePizz]

13. Can I get an "amen"? (NT)

[MuseRider]

14. You got it.

Sorry for the hijack littlejoe.

[Desertrose]

23. and yet another AMEN!!

I love the idea of voting for a real honest & decent person....

I agree...Dennis would win easily in the General electio0n...its just getting him through his own party...how sad is that?


:hi: and welcome JoePizz

Peace
DR

[Mairead]

34. A-a-men! A-a-a-men! A-a-men, a-men, a-men! Haleluyah!

(Welcome to the bus, Joe!)

[littlejoe]

56. Help! I think I've just fallen into some weird, Twilight Zone-like

political tent-revival meeting and I can't get up!

[Mairead]

59. Didn't see the film, huh? You should. It's genuinely reviving.

[littlejoe]

68. It's one film that did poorly at the box office.

[Mairead]

74. I wouldn't know about that. But he got a deserved Oscar for it.

[littlejoe]

80. It is easy to act, when playing a sincere role.

[littlejoe]

29. I'm sorry, but did you just use "honest" and 'politician" in the

same sentence?

[littlejoe]

19. How can you say that he is electable?

He's getting appallingly low vote counts in the primaries and caucuses. That's like telling the San Siego Chargers two-thirds into this last season that they still could make the playoffs.

[diamondsoul]

22. That's because up until recently the votes have been split

between 9 candidates. In some cases still are since some are voting for candidates who have already dropped. People keep talking about pragmatism and DK being unable to get the nomination. "I like him but...", and the response to that remains identical- vote for him and he's electable. Choose not to and please don't come back here and say "in a better world..." because you all had a chance to MAKE a better world and chose not to.

[littlejoe]

26. No, no no no no noooooooo. There is something wrong with

that logic. Using your analogy, all candidates would have the same amount of votes.

[diamondsoul]

31. Not at all.

Look, you have a lot of people who like Kucinich but chose to support a candidate they percieve as stronger in popular appeal. Now that's not the ONLY group supporting each candidate but it is a portion of EVERY candidates support aside from Kucinich and Sharpton.

Split them from the ones who are genuinely supporting the candidate they most align with, and let me tell you something, we have a winner in Kucinich. Get all those people to vote for Kucinich and I would stake a years pay he'd win the nomination AND the GE, the latter by a landslide. Let the GOPers who hate NAFTA discover his position and he'll have those single-issue Repubs, too.

Even if the support from each of the 8 others was only something like 3%, that's 24% right there! Then add in the support he has loyal to his cause already and theres no way he could lose the nomination! I cannot figure out why people don't GET this! It's simple arithmetic!

[littlejoe]

39. This is because they looked at Kucinich hard, and decided

that he was lacking in qualities that make him electable.

[Desertrose]

41. could you please enumerate exactly...to your thinking, just what

those "electable" qualities are??

DR

[littlejoe]

57. I think the voters have already enumerated that.

[Mairead]

66. No, they haven't. At most 25% have, and they made the choices they did

based on an essentially total blackout of DK over the past year.

Try a gedankenexperiment. Try to imagine all the major news outlets spending a year talking about the Kucinich Program for reviving the nation and restoring it to its former glory. Jobs! Healthcare! Education! Peace! An end to terrorism! Respect and affection abroad! A relentless drumbeat of admiring articles and prime-time commentary by talking heads agreeing that he's FDR come back to life, with prosperity just around the corner.

Imagine that. Build up the picture in your head.

Now tell me that people wouldn't be clamoring to vote for him, perhaps even demanding that Smirk resign early.

You know they would!

[littlejoe]

69. Am I missing something here?

I am not interested about debating t6he merrits of Kucinich for president. That time has long come and gone. But when the man is getting anywhere from one to five percent of the vote, you must be delusional, and in need of professional help to continue to cling to the fantasy of a Kuci9nich presidency.

This thread is for discussion of a different role for Kucinich to play. Please let's stay on topic.

[Mairead]

75. Yes, you are missing something here.

And that's that only 25% of the delegates have been allocated. Which is nowhere near a majority.

The future is undetermined, as far as we're aware; there are only probabilities at this point, not certainties. The bookies in London are giving only 200 to 1 against DK, which expresses very well how little certainty there is.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[littlejoe]

83. Unrealistic expectations.

[Zardeenah]

25. Not to mention the media blackout!

How often do you see DK even mentioned on CNN? ABC? CBS? Even when he had 15% in Maine, we saw NOTHING, a BIG fat NOTHING about him. When polled a huge majority say they have never heard of him. If Dennis got the press coverage of Dean or Kerry, and still had very low polling numbers, I'd grant you the point. When everyone has heard Dennis and his policies, this would be a more valid conversation.

Susan
(Not trying to be snotty...Just tired of people saying DK isn't electable because of low poll numbers, when it's pulling teeth just to get someone to mention him, even in a column bemoaning "Why don't any presidential candidates do/say X" where X is a key plank in DK's platform.)

DK Delegate in WA.

[mountebank]

27. Electable usually means electable against Bush.

And I think he is eminently electable in this sense. He doesn't serve an extremely liberal district in Ohio and he has defeated incumbent Republicans in several contests. I think when people of all stripes get to know Dennis Kucinich, his electability increases dramatically.

Unfortunately, I think it is also easy to smear him, moreso than other candidates, and as long as the people are kept ignorant by the media, that works against him (whereas it doesn't really against John Kerry). But in my opinion, you can't run a campaign or support a candidate based on fear of how he is going to get smeared, or fear of the ignorance of others. Your job as supporter is to make sure people GET to know your candidate as well as possible.

Clearly this hasn't been possible in the primaries with the glut of candidates, but perhaps that is changing, and aside from Wisconsin, Kucinich has seen rising percentages (e.g. ME, WA, NV).

[littlejoe]

30. Unfortunately I disagree.

You know, I used to be idealistic. Then I got older.

[Mairead]

38. That's a cheap and meaningless sneer.

[littlejoe]

42. Realistic, not meaningless.

My point is that I live in the real world, not some idealistic fantasyland.

[Desertrose]

43. ahhh, now we are getting down to it....

another cheap shot at Kucinch...for well...for being different than the other guys. ( a fact for which I am eternally grateful!)

Idealistic fantasyland indeed.....man I just love it when someone I don't know and who doesn't know me, infers I live in idealistic fantasyland and not in the real world.
God, that is just soooo funny! seriously....I'd love to know where this fantasyland is...

Honey...let me tell you, my world is every damn bit as real as yours...so don't get all condescending on me, OK?



DR

[littlejoe]

61. You misunderstand me.

I am not about cheap shot. But if it makes you feel better about yourself and your candidate to think so, I won't stop you. One quick question. Where exactly do you live, so that I can go there and drink some of your magic water that makes everything seem so black and white, cut and dried and rosey?

[Mairead]

44. No, you live in the same world we do. That yours is a better,

more 'real' world is the fantasy.

[littlejoe]

64. No one said mine is a better world. What postings are you

reading? Besides, you are way off subject here.

[Desertrose]

40. and your point being?

just because one gets older doesn't always follow you lose the ability to be idealistic...

.....too bad for you.

DR

[littlejoe]

45. There's a reason they call it the "real world".

Or haven't you noticed?

[Mairead]

58. Yes, there is a reason...but it's not the one you imply.

It's called 'the real world' as a preemptive exculpation for behavior they know full well doesn't meet normal ethical standards. It's a cop-out.

[littlejoe]

65. you are still young and starry eyed.

[Mairead]

67. *snork* I was born during the Battle of Britain.

[littlejoe]

70. Excuse me if I doubt you. Your posts say otherwise.

[Mairead]

73. Well, let it never be said that you're inconsistent!

That's the problem with believing that you're the only one with a handle on reality: everything has to fit your preconceptions because you've no way to do reality testing on new information! :)

[Mairead]

35. But this isn't two-thirds in, it's one-quarter in.

And the election is up to us! It's NOT a horserace, NOT a sports match, NOT anything where DK himself has to prove some prowess independent of our judgement. If we decide he should win, he wins. And we win!

[littlejoe]

46. two thirds or one quarter, it doesn't change anything.

[diamondsoul]

53. Uh yeah, it does-

by several thousand votes! What in the world are you talking about it doesn't change anything?!

[littlejoe]

71. When you are zero for seventeen, it doesn't matter if

you have fouled off a few balls. At some point during the game you have to score. My Chargers analogy would still have worked if I would have said, only one quarter of the season. The bottom line is that Kucinich doesn't have a snowballs chance.

[Kanary]

60. Very good point, Joe, plus

I think that Dennis is so hard to categorize that I have a feeling that he would also pull in a lot of the centrists, and not a few of the disaffected right. In a way, I think the label "leftist" and "far left" has been pinned on Dennis by people who haven't really studied his proposals. In some ways, Dennis himself is "centrist", because what he wants to do is FOR THE PEOPLE, rather than for corporations and government. Once the population really understood that, and got away from the labels, I think he would not only bring back us "disaffected leftists", but also others who would benefit from the changes he wants to make.

As you point out, his honesty and principles are compelling, and I believe would also bring in the centrists.

However, I think it's probably his healthcare proposals that are the strongest draw. When they actually understood what he is saying, I would think it would be hard for the "non-left" to dismiss him.

In any case, I agree with you completely about also bringing back those of us who are considered left. We've been ignored too long, at the peril of the party.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and welcome to DU!

Kanary

[Kanary]

63. Very good points, Joe, plus

I think that Dennis is so hard to categorize that I have a feeling that he would also pull in a lot of the centrists, and not a few of the disaffected right. In a way, I think the label "leftist" and "far left" has been pinned on Dennis by people who haven't really studied his proposals. In some ways, Dennis himself is "centrist", because what he wants to do is FOR THE PEOPLE, rather than for corporations and government. Once the population really understood that, and got away from the labels, I think he would not only bring back us "disaffected leftists", but also others who would benefit from the changes he wants to make.

As you point out, his honesty and principles are compelling, and I believe would also bring in the centrists.

However, I think it's probably his healthcare proposals that are the strongest draw. When they actually understood what he is saying, I would think it would be hard for the "non-left" to dismiss him.

In any case, I agree with you completely about also bringing back those of us who are considered left. We've been ignored too long, at the peril of the party.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and welcome to DU!

Kanary

[Lostnote03]

10. Good Question....

.....DK as Ohios' Governor/Senator would greatly impact the Electoral process, however his role within the House is extremely important.....I personaly believe that he would would be a fantastic House leader.....

[littlejoe]

47. I agree. He would make a great house leader, if

he gets the opportunity. But whatever, I would love to see him play an important role in the new democratic administration. He's a good man.

[GreenPartyVoter]

15. We could use him in the senate

He'd be great in the admin too, but I think folks are right in that his hands will be tied by whatever mainstream Dem prez we wind up with. :shrug:

[ThirdWheelLegend]

16. Yes, that role is President

Dennis Kucinich already is my President, I am waiting for the party to catch up.

TWL

[littlejoe]

49. Shall I wake you in four years? You obviously

must be asleep. Nice dreams.

[no name no slogan]

17. He should be Speaker of the House for the new Dem Majority we'll have (nt)

[JohnKleeb]

21. I drool at the thought :)

He should be upped to like Whip, Majority leader, or Speaker. I tell ya, hes a star.

[Hippo_Tron]

50. That's what I think...

Could you imagine Dennis Kucinich as Speaker of the House with a Republican President. Can you say, NO Republican agenda getting passed congress on his watch.

[Bozola]

24. It's like a game of fantasy cabinet members...i swear.

With the Repub in charge of the Senates and the House, so you think the next President will be able to appoint a reasonable Supreme Court Justice?

With the Repub in charge of the Senates and the House, if the next president is a Democrat, how many weeks will elapse before he's up for impeachment proceedings?

The democrats are going to have to keep what little strength they have. This means that for the good of the US, Kucinich is going to have to stay in the House of Representatives where he can stay involved with lawmaking and budgeting instead of being a Cabinet Secretary in charge of a Republican-caused budget-less department.

Furthermore, we need to get as many as possible Democrats elected to the House and Senate if this next Democratic president is to have any power. Just ousting Bush isn't enough, you've got to have support in both Houses of Congress. Putting Kucinich in the EOB is seriously cutting your nose off in spite of your face.

Speaking of which, didn't we have a couple of congress candidates here? I remember AWD (http://www.jeffseemannforcongress.com) was here, and there was another...(I don't have my old donation receipts on hand, if anyone can remind me who that was, I'd be grateful). If we care about the future of this country, we need to keep Dennis in the House (the Man is getting some serious seniority points, too), and we need to support our own local (err..internet that is) grown candidates.

[Mairead]

32. Of course: POTUS

Unless the majority are fools, which is sadly not impossible.

[goodhue]

33. If not the president

DK would make a great speaker of the house

[robertpaulsen]

37. The position DK is best qualified for is President!

However, if I'm going to play the game of fantasy cabinet positions, it would be so righteous to see Dennis Kucinich replace John Ashcroft. Not that I think he is better off being Attorney General than he is being a Congressman (and I don't think he'll languish in the House if we can take it back) but it would be such a great spit in Dubya's face to put someone the complete opposite of Ashcroft in his place!

[Hippo_Tron]

48. Either Speaker of the House or US Senator...

Since the first one ain't gonna happen, I think he should run for the Senate this election.

[wal]

51. Kerry / Kucinich in '04

Don't be surprised - it could happen.

[Endangered Specie]

52. How about moving up in the House Ranks

After seeing pelosi's concession speech in the 2004SOTU, I think hed be much better as the House Dem Leader.

[mvd]

54. I sure do want him to be President, but..

I'd settle for a cabinent spot because he'd get visibility. My ideal would be Secretary of State. But I don't know if Kerry would do that, as he has different views. Speaker of the House would be next favorite.

[spooky3]

62. EPA or Dept of Labor Sec.

[joyautumn]

72. He'll be needed in the House

to fight Kerry tooth and nail on all the Bush-III policies he'll push, if Skull and Bones and all their allies (no, it's not just one elite group, but a bunch of them) manage to whisk Bush out of office before there's enough evidence gathered to throw him in prison for the rest of his life, and replace him with Kerry who did such a good job of whitewashing the Iran-Contra investigation for daddy Bush.

[Slice]

77. Secretary of State

[littlejoe]

81. I do not believe he would make a good Secretary of State.

He's too principled, and I don't know, but maybe he wouldn't have the right temperment for it.

[LWolf]

82. I see it this way:

Should anyone other democrat beat Bush in November, Dennis should remain in the house. We will need strong leaders to help move any dem president's agenda.

If you can't see Dennis in the WH this round, work to elect dems to the house. Dennis would make a powerful Speaker of the House.

[eridani]

84. Kucinich wins with this issue

Straight from a Christian conservative. No other Dem candidate can get his vote. Worden is writing to Dean, but Kucinich has this issue locked down.

http://sierratimes.com/03/12/29/ar_carlworden.htm

I am a Christian conservative who voted for Bush in 2000, and I write for a largely conservative and excellent Internet news and opinion publication called The Sierra Times. Remarkably, the positive responses I received from that article ran 8 to 2, 2 being those who said I was dead, absolutely DEAD wrong. The fact that largely conservative readers responded as positively as they did, means I am not wrong, and I am sticking to my prediction that Howard Dean will be sworn in as the 44th President of the United States.

The issue that I believe will put Dean right over the top will be his condemnation of NAFTA/GATT, free trade, and his pledge to end our participation in the World Trade Organization. If Dean wants to win by a comfortable margin, all he has to do is THAT. The massive number of red states that voted for Bush last election will turn to blue, and Dean will waltz into the White House like a halfback who strolls untouched into the end zone. End of game.

Of course, I have no idea what Dean’s position is on free trade, NAFTA/GATT or the WTO. As far as I know, he hasn’t said. Maybe he’s saving that for the finishing shot. I’m speculating of course, but Mr. Dean, if you are reading this, I just gave you the keys to the White House.

[eridani]

85. Yes

[Vernunft II]

86. I´d appoint him Secretary Of Defense

and have him clean out that giant fivecornered mess.