I think that Edwardsd' be much more likely than Kerry to chose Clark as vp

[DaisyUCSB]

Kerry certainly could use alot to help him in the general election, but more Vietnam/defense/foriegn policy is not anywhere near the top of the list. He still could pick him, but I think clearly Clark doesn't have any better of a chance than Bob Graham or Evan Bayh or Dick Gephardt or especially Edwards himself.

However if Edwards is the nominee, Clark helps him in 2 major obvious ways. 1, he inoculates the "security-gap" that oh so many people stress about him to a large degree. I contend that it's a much smaller gap that people make it out to be considering it's strong potential for backfire when Bush is the candidate he's facing.

2, Edwards, on paper, has an enormously higher chance of being competative in Arkansas than Kerry ever would, and therefor, obviously is a huge plus as Arkansas+North Carolina becoming swingstates gives the GOP 20 electoral votes less of a margin of error, and Bush having to make a major effort to hold onto 2 "real" southern states(as most of Florida's population isn't dixie) would force him to do things to excite social conservatives in those states that turns off libertine leaning independants and moderate republicans everywhere.

This isn't a bash Edwards or Bash Kerry thread. It's just a consideration for people who would like to see a vp nominee Clark, and who would give them, I believe an obvious, better chance of that

[AP]

1. Incidentally, I think it'd be crazy for Kerry to leave the senate. Only in

the senate does seniority translate to actual power. The democrats would be mad to squander that experience on the VP.

[maddezmom]

3. Isn't Edwards the Sr Sen from North Carolina? n/t

[Carrion]

5. Junior

[spooky3]

8. No, he's the Senior Senator. Dole is Junior.

[maddezmom]

12. Senator Dole is the senior?

She was elected in 2002. :shrug: I think Dole is the junior Sen.

[atre]

25. You are correct on this- Edwards is senior.

[spooky3]

7. Yes, but he is not running again. Another Dem. candidate is currently

campaigning.

[DaisyUCSB]

9. Yes, but Erskin Bowles is running for the seat now

so if we don't want to get off subject to bash Edwards for chosing to pursue the presidency instead of running for reelection, because he couldn't both, we'll end it there

[Maddy McCall]

14. Yes, he is the SENIOR senator

[AP]

16. Kerry's on his fourth term. He's close to running the show in the Senate.

You wouldn't want to lose that kind of seniority on his comittees.

Only in the Senate does experience really count for anything meaningful.

[jpgpenn]

2. Shelton!

nuff said!

[in_cog_ni_to]

13. ditto. n/t

[DaisyUCSB]

15. Edwards never told Shelton to say those things.

At least there is no evidence either that he did, or that Edwards is the kind of person who would tell an aquaintance to do that.

Shelton very well could have said them because he prefurrs Edwards over Clark, but Edwards is not responsible for everything every aquaintance or supporter of him says about other candidates

[AP]

17. I believe the only candidate he has talked about is Kerry.

He could have been trying to help Kerrry for all we know.

[democratreformed]

21. Maybe not, but he does consult him

Can you see someone who said those things about our General actually recommend him? No, I'm not feeling this one..... at all.

Besides, who is more likely (or not) to pick Clark to be VP is totally irrelevant. As a matter of fact, I don't put much stock in either one of them doing that.

[DaisyUCSB]

22. well alot of Clark supporters believe that his use now would be as vp

you might not, but I do if the nominee is Edwards, and that's also who I happen to prefur over Kerry

[democratreformed]

23. Oh, I am definitely NOT saying he wouldn't be useful there

For one thing, I refuse to let myself get my hopes up. Second, there are too many people far wiser and experienced than myself who say it will never happen. Quite honestly, I would love to see Wes there. But, I am not counting on it.

[Jai4WKC08]

31. You got it

Shelton and Edwards are tight. Much more than mere "acquaintances."

If Edwards weren't behind the Shelton smear, he should have renounced it. Instead, he defended it indirectly.

[DaisyUCSB]

34. No, he didn't. That's the worst kind of guilt-by-association politics

Clark started off his campaign by snubbing Edwards and not even giving him the 20 minutes of his official anouncement speech, much less the majority of the remaining days in the weeks primary coverage like Dean, Kerry, Gephardt, Lieberman, and even Mosley-Braun all got.

He never apologized for that, and that is something that his CAMPAIGN, not an aquaintence(or your unsubstantiated TIGHT aquaintance) was responsible for.

[Jai4WKC08]

43. Oh right...

You mean Edwards' SECOND "official" announcement.

Not to mention all the campaigning before either one.

[atre]

42. I suppose you are happy that Kerry attacked Clark for not

distancing himself from Moore?

Which is worse? Not stepping in to defend Clark from a bullet (Edwards) or poking a stick in the bullet wound to double the pain and ensure infection (Kerry)?

[Jai4WKC08]

44. Not at all

I'm not happy with Kerry to be sure. For Moore (from whom Kerry is drawing untold benefit). For his NH campaign manager's "he's a Republican" charge. For countless other incidents of "politics as usual" bs.

Perhaps the Shelton business offends me more, because military officers just shouldn't engage in making personal differences public. Shelton has betrayed a code. And since it was done in Edwards' interest, and with his belated if indirect support, I hold Edwards accountable.

Now there's a novel concept--a candidate held accountable for what his supporters do in his name. I seem to remember another candidate who was held accountable... and never shirked the responsibility.

In any case, both Kerry and Edwards have engaged in dirty politics and unwarranted attacks. 'Course, it makes me sick to hear how Edwards runs such a supposedly clean, upbeat, positive campaign.

But the bottom line for me is ABB. Kerry has the best chance of making it happen. If Clark can put aside whatever pesonal animosity he may feel for the greater good, I 'spect I can too.

[jmaier]

4. It's pretty hard to see Edwards

considering Clark after he endorsed Kerry -- that said, it would be pretty hard for me to witness Clark on the lower half of that ticket. It won't happen.

[DaisyUCSB]

18. Why is it hard to see? Edwards is going to go with the guy who gives him

the best chance of winning, and so is Kerry. With Kerry, it's not at all obvious that that is Clark.

With Edwards, I think I made a pretty compelling case that none would be better for him than Clark. I really doubt that Edwards is the kind of person to hold enough of a grudge to not ask the person who would help him beat George Bush most.

[Skwmom]

6. Why Kerry should pick Clark

By putting Wes Clark on the ticket it will turn the "Dems are weak on national defense" meme on it's head (it will become Republicans are chicken hawks who send the sons and daughters of others off to needless wars while dodging their own responsibility).

Kerry alone is vulnerable to an attack that he is weak on defense (for example he voted against funding of military equipment critical to the Afghanistan mission). This will free the ticket up to pound Bush on the economy, health care and other matters.

In addition, because of Kerry's prior health problems if he doesn't appoint someone qualified to step into the role of commander-in-chief, I'm sure the Republicans will be more than happy to point this out.

Edwards is so weak on national defense, I don't think even General Clark could prop him up.

[DaisyUCSB]

10. That isn't what I'm arguing about. I'm talking about who's more likely to

pick Clark. With Kerry, there are a half dozen people with as good or a better chance of Kerry picking them. With Edwards, I think Clark has a better chance than anyone of being picked

[DaisyUCSB]

11. That isn't what I'm arguing about. I'm talking about who's more likely to

pick Clark. With Kerry, there are a half dozen people with as good or a better chance of Kerry picking them. With Edwards, I think Clark has a better chance than anyone of being picked

[SEAburb]

19. I agree, Clark would shore up Edwards weaknesses

Although Clark maybe too progressive for Edwards taste. But then Edwards would take whoever the party establishment tells to.

[DaisyUCSB]

20. More machiavellian paranoia substituting as debate

and you started off you're post so nice

[atre]

24. Incidentally...

This is my preferred ticket: Edwards/Clark. That is assuming of course that Kucinich doesn't stand a snowball's chance in Hell at getting the nomination.

[anti-NAFTA]

26. Who cares?

What is with all the Dean supporters and Clark supporters obsessing over these candidates who have withdrawn? Do you see ME whining about how Gephardt should be vice-president?

edit: By the way, I agree that Edwards would be more likely than Kerry. Two former soldiers on a ticket would look like desperate overkill.

[DaisyUCSB]

28. exactly, on your second point

but a vp pick, and who a candidate is likely to pick, is important

[DemDogs]

27. No question about this (n/t)

[DaisyUCSB]

29. thanks for the bump

.

[RafterMan]

30. No

I think their positions on the war (Edwards agreeing with Bush, Clark savaging Bush) are irreconcilable. Yes, other tickets have had major disagreements, but I don't see how you can suave this one away.

[Lefta Dissenter]

32. I don't buy it

besides, to expand on the Shelton thought.

As I've said before, it's one thing to say things in the heat of political battle (i.e. Shelton's groundless, baseless smear of Clark). However, one of Edwards' great weaknesses is his lack of foreign policy experience. So, who did he consult for advice during his campaign? Someone who was unwilling to try to save 1.5 million Albanians who were being slaughtered. Someone who is still defending bush's invasion of Iraq. And then on top of that, someone who provided Milosevic with fodder for his own defense.

...enough said...

[Donna Zen]

33. Shelton

Shelton is a friend of Edwards and advises him which is why 911=Saddam. Shelton was fine with going to war in Iraq.

Shelton will be somewhere in an Edwards administration...go may the goddess help us.

I don't think you can appreciate what a smear that was.

Furthermore, Shelton is really tight with the current head of the Joint Chiefs, Myers. And Myers is a firm believer in both Star Wars and the weaponization of space. Myers and Shelton have stood for each others children.

Shelton and Wes Clark are light years apart in how they view the role of the military. Shelton's gotta see the oil on the map first.

I'm not sure how firmly grounded Shelton is in foreign policy. Oh sure he'll know something, to get to that level you have to know something. Clark on the OTOH, graduated in foreign policy from West Point and actively pursued the field.

Ironically, Clark recalls having dinner with Rabin in one of his books when he was 30.

[incapsulated]

35. Not according to Clark

Clark is on record saying that he doesn't believe in a VP filling gaps in a President's weakness on foreign policy and that's what we got with Bush (the "he's surrounded by good people" bs). He believes the POTUS needs to have experience in that area himself right now, and I agree.

[DaisyUCSB]

36. Then why are you a "howard Dean" democrat?

?

[Crunchy Frog]

38. She's not a "Howard Dean" Democrat

She made that graphic as a gift to the Dean supporters on this board whose participation in that campaign was as transformational to them as our participation in the Clark campaign was to us.

It was something that she did out of respect and generosity, because that's the kind of person she is.

[incapsulated]

40. I'm not, it's a graphic I made for Dean supporters

If that were the case I would also be a Wes Clark Democrat while being a Dean Democrat and a Clarkie for Kerry Democrat.

Read the sig "steal my graphics".

[DjTj]

37. I have long argued that Clark would be the best VP for Edwards...

...but I am less sure now after Clark's emphatic endorsement of Kerry.

[Crunchy Frog]

39. It's not going to happen, sorry.

Clark would no more agree to be Edwards "Dick Cheney" than he would to be Dean's "Dick Cheney". He has been very clear that he does not believe that model of the presidency works, and he would not participate in it.

Apart from that, it is pretty clear to me that Edwards and Clark have fundamentally different foreign policy beliefs. They simply would not be compatible.

[DaisyUCSB]

41. bump

.

[Leilani]

45. Heard on CNN several times

that when Clark decided to drop out, Edwards asled for his support.

Clark refused, & endorsed Kerry.

I don't think that bodes well for a future alliance.