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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 07:21 PM
Original message
Poll question: Binary Ralph Nader Poll
In his times V I Lenin called well intentioned democratic socialists in the west useful idiots because they were unwittingly advancing the agenda of the Soviet Union....

A decent argument can be made that Raplh Nader will be a useful idiot if he runs in 2004 and splits the progressive left of center anti-Bush vote... He will be doing the bidding of the Republican National Committee and Karl Rove...

If Nader runs in 2004 is it fair to call him a "useful idiot" for Karl Rove and Bushco?
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StClone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. How about
Just an Idiot.
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union_maid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. Useful to the BFEE, yes, idiot, no
Some of the people who vote for him and believe in third parties are useful idiots for Rove and company, but Nader knows what he's doing. He just doesn't care. He doesn't care who gets hurt. He doesn't care what kind of suffering is caused. He just doesn't give a shit.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
2. I Wonder If The Nader Voters Know How Much The Right Wing Are Laughing
At Them
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. I wasn't aware that anyone had voted yet n/t
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LandOLincoln Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. Nope, because he's no "idiot.". He's doing it deliberately. n/t
Edited on Fri Feb-20-04 07:28 PM by LandOLincoln
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NV1962 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. Out of respect towards idiot, I'd say "no"
For Bush, he's a very useful enabler.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MaineDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I love being called an idiot
Thank you so much.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. Hi MaineDem....I guess we just are just not elitist enough in our choice.
Far better to champion someone who attracts 2% of the vote then associate with a candidate who has demonstrated their ability to galvanize the hearts and minds of mainstream Democrats. Because, mainstream is, you know, so "centrist".

See, only really, really smart people can be in the 2% club. I'm sure if Dean, Kucinich, Nader or whoever were pulling Kerry's numbers, they'd be accused of being DLC candidates or their supporters ridiculed as simple dupes of corporate media. That's how elitists play the game.

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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. I agree.
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Slice Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Hum
Would Barbara Lee be more to your liking? Or perhaps a Noam Chomsky-Ralph Nader ticket? It's socialistic enough to work!
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
7. If Lenin were looking for "useful idiots" today, odds are very good that .
...he would call the DLC.

They certainly play the role well enough for the Republicans.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Ya Think
The one person who benefits most from a Nader 04 candidacy is George Bush......

Either Nader is stupid or evil....


Neither is particularly attractive...
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snoochie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I understand your point but lets be clear
Bush is not the greatest beneficiary, the monied elites are.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. I Can Afford To Vote Puke Like Ralphie But My Conscience Prohibits Me...
He is swine...
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Jamdu Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Come on Nader...
I really didn't think he had it in him to run again...I was sure he would back the dem candidate. Guess i'm the idiot
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anti-NAFTA Donating Member (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
12. As much as I dislike Kerry
I will NEVER EVER vote for Nader. That man is human waste. If you want to vote third party for a protest vote, then vote for the Socialist Party or Socialist Workers or something. Don't let this whore of the right get any more powerful.
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Doogie Donating Member (70 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. Same here
Can't imagine ANY scenario right now that would induce me to vote Nader.
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Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
15. Reelect Bush
Vote for Nader!
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HuskerDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
17. Asshole
That's the nicest thing I have to say about RN.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
18. Nader said he won't run if he doesn't have the money.
Edited on Fri Feb-20-04 08:17 PM by higher class
The right wing media won't allow Kucinich, Sharpton, Clark, Mosely-Braun air time, but they're giving it to Nader which will help him get money.

Soon the freepers will tell us that they're going to vote for him and donate to lock in his run.

The PNACers will use some of their treasures to give to Nader. Their goals are the same as his.

Nader is not the old Nader - the fighter, the modest earth inhabitant - he is now thinking about being SPOILER II.

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
21. Absolutely, Sir
A thoroughgoing Leninist would have no difficulty whatever maintaining Nader is an agent provocatuer in fascist pay.

The reptile is nothing more than a splinterist wrecker, who acts to further the cause of the most reactionary elements in our nation's polity. Those who associate with him, or trumpet his cause, are similarly willing tools of reaction, and cannot be honestly viewed, or honestly decribed, in any other wise.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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Jamdu Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. oh Nader
What kind of percentage do you think Nader will get with all the pissed off Dem's. voting for OUR candidate...
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CabalBuster Donating Member (282 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
22. ASB (anyone but skulls and bones) n/t
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. kick
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buddhamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. why limit your poll to Nader ?
reading through the forum, Nader doesn't appear to be the only factor
that could determine the outcome of this election.

you responded to a post that read 'Anybody but skull and bones'--
that would be whom exactly?
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Here's The Deal
Why don't we juat dilute the center left vote some more by encourgaging Jesse Jackson, Dennis Kucinich, and Maxine Waters to mount independent runs in 04...

That's right....


Let Bush go into the election with a galvanized and unified right wing while we ( the center and everything to it's left) go into the election fractured and disunited...

Wow...

That sounds like something cooked up by the Republican National Committee....
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buddhamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. here's the deal
Edited on Sat Feb-21-04 08:27 AM by buddhamama
people are talking about writing in their prefered Democratic candidate because they ain't happy with Kerry, Edwards or whomever being the nominee.
Take special notice of where i said "Democratic" candidate.
Many party loyalists are tired of the same old same old.
They invested a great deal in getting 'something/someone' different this time around re: Dean, and many of them are not letting go of their investment.

take Nader out of the equation and you still got yourself a big ass mess.

we don't need no stickin' Nader to split the party, it has already happened.

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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. It Is Just As Imperative That The Center Left Maintain A Common Front
Against Bush As It Was Imperative That The Center Left Maintain A Common Front Against Hitler In His Time...


The left and center left of Hitler's day failed to do so...


To repeat that mistake is a crime against humanity....
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
30. Of course, Lenin was wrong, and democratic socialism stopped Bolshevism
The social democrats in the West helped keep the Bolshevics from staging coups in the western world. Lenin was wrong, as usual.

The useful idiots were the rank and file Commies who kept saying, "at least the commies, unlike the fascists, are for the workers". That's useful - and idiotic.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Stalin Also Advised The German Communist Party Not To Cooperate With
The Socialist party in the years leading up to WW2...


What's the difference between that and what Nader and the Naderites are doing?

They are empowering the most reactionary elements of American politics....


Maybe that's Nader's true intentions...

Do his acolytes know?

It reminds me of the injunction from Christ to false prophets that it is "better to have a millstone wrapped around your neck and be cast into the sea (insert Nader) then to lead my little ones (insert Naderites) astray"

Peace

Brian
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
32. You forgot to mention that the "Useful Idiots" were more like the DLC.
The Democratic Socialists of the time were the "moderates" who went along with the right in supporting the war and thus condemned themselves to fall because they offered "moderate" change.

Lenin and the Bolsheviks didn't come to power because the "left" moved left. They came to power because the "moderates" moved right under Kerensky. In effect, the "moderates" sold out to the right opening the door to the Bolshiviks. You should also note that the "far left", the Socialist Revolutionaries and Anarchists, joined the Bolshiviks in opposing the right/moderate coalition and were the ones most feared by the Stalinists and purged. Also, Trotsky, wasn't murdered by Stalin because he was a "moderate", he was too far left.

Your analogy is faulty.

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