Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Want some logical, reasoned arguments for why Nader is bad? Here.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:21 PM
Original message
Want some logical, reasoned arguments for why Nader is bad? Here.
For a leftist hero that's different from those pandering Democrats, he's quite the hypocrite. He railed against Gore and others for investing in not-so great companies, yet invests in such corporate monsters as Wal-Mart, GAP, the Limited, and HALLIBURTON himself. These all part of a Fidelity mutual fund that his own "Nader's Raiders" denounced, companies that are reviled by the WTO protestors--people Nader supports in word. He casts himself as a proponent of labor, yet denies his workers the right to unionize. He talks up his consumer advocate history, but at the same time uses funds from his advocacy groups for stock market adventures.

The premise for his run is a false one. He declares there is too little difference between the parties (there are plenty of life-and-death differences for people to vote on), and further states the reason half the people don't vote is because the two party system doesn't speak for them, tries to encourage apathy, etc. Well, he's run a few times now, and I haven't seen the other half of the country start voting again. It's not that they don't care about Republicans and Democrats, apparently they don't give much of a crap about Nader either. And if it's the media's or the public's fault, how does Nader expect to fix those problems when it's in the interest of the intrenched parties to maintain the status quo? By making more failed runs for the presidency?

Finally, anyone who says he wants to "heighten the contradictions", or prefers Republicans be in charge for that reason, should be thrown out on his ass. Ends justifies the means rhetoric doesn't EVER fly with me and it certainly shouldn't with you. For those who rightly criticize the argument that the IWR Dems were "giving W enough rope to hang himself with", I hope you NEVER try to justify Nader's statements that have the same basic and flawed idea. Putting Republicans in power so that their atrocities galvanize the populace is a sick way of using widespread suffering for political gain, and I want no part of it.

Look at these quotes from the man himself, and compare them to his portfolio:

"I'm quite aware of how the arms race is driven by corporate demands for contracts, whether it's General Dynamics or Lockheed Martin," Nader told the Progressive in April. "They drive it through Congress. They drive it by hiring Pentagon officials in the Washington military industrial complex, as Eisenhower phrased it."

The Fidelity Magellan fund owns 2,041,800 shares of General Dynamics.

"Both parties are terrible on antitrust," Nader told CNN in August. "Look, we have Boeing now, one aircraft company, manufacturer after the McDonnell Douglas merger." In a June press release, Nader expressed disappointment in the Clinton administration's Justice Department to challenge the merger of British Petroleum with Amoco, or Exxon's merger with Mobil.

The Fidelity Magellan fund owns 2,908,600 shares of Boeing, 24,753,870 shares of British Petroleum-Amoco and 28,751,268 shares of Exxon-Mobil. The fund also owns stock in Shell, Sunoco, Texaco and Chevron -- on whose board Bush advisor Condoleezza Rice serves.

Nader runs on being BETTER on these issues than the Democrats, not being equally bad. In hypocrisy, and in profiting from corporatism, he is equally guilty.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. Kick, to watch it go past all the sexier Nader threads again. :-) (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. thank you jpgray
I used to do a lot of work for Nader organizations - I was chairman of a chapter of NYPIRG and was on the State Board of Directors. I was also a community organizer for NYPIRG's sister organization. I've met Ralph Nader and used to have the highest respect for him.

Now he is pure scum in my eyes: a vain, self-serving hypocrite who sacrifices the good of the country for his own ego.

He has destroyed what could've been an exemplary career in public service. No matter how much good he's done in the past, the first line in his obituary will describe him as a spoiler.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. He talks a good game and has done some good work in the past
But recently he's been pretty depressing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Turkw Donating Member (521 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. I agree, and it's not like he does not have some valid points about the
Democrats and Republicans, but this is not the way to get the results he wants. The Repub will never like him, and he is turning off a lot of past and potential supporters. My uncle voted for Nader in 2000. I tried to get my uncle to understand that it was a bad time for this, as Bush was very bad news. I had no idea, but I was absolutely right. I voted Gore, even though I had a lot of problems with his campaign and with Lieberman.

Judges, it all boils down to one issue, judges. Even if every thing else was equal, this is the deal breaker, there must be no chance for Bush to win the 2004 presidential race.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. kick
:-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
5. Yep, Nader is everything he claims to rally against.
H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
6. My dad met Nader and told me he's a real pompous ass
Dad's employer was suing General Motors several years ago, when Ralph Inc. offered their services. (they're always willing to help fight against GM). The employer knew they could use some help, so they allowed Ralph to help out. Ralph moved into my dad's office and set up his 'command center'. Apparently Ralph is a caffeine junkie, and he has his aides under strict orders to bring him a new diet coke every 30 minutes on the dot. One of the aides didn't deliver the coke on time, so dad tells me that Ralph ripped the kid a new A-hole. Ralph was berating the kid and yelling, "God damn it! I told you to bring me a coke here every 30 minutes and I meant it!"

What an ass.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
7. My favorite part of your most excellent post:
the other half of the country...apparently don't give much of a crap about Nader either.

right on! :thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
8. Thats why i am voting green
for david cobb
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. From what I have read about Cobb, he seems like a good man (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
9. Good information that all should read.

Years ago, I had a lot of respect for Nader.

His 2000 run enabled me to find out these sorts of things about him. It was also disappointing to see Phil Donahue and Michael Moore campaigning for him, when they have the money to relocate outside the U.S. if the political climate gets too bad here. Nader could also afford to emigrate. It was easy for them to say there was no difference between Bush and Gore and that a Bush administration would teach people a lesson. I know Moore backed down at the last moment but I don't know if he undid any of the harm he'd done before.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
David Dunham Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
11. Being Anti-Nader Should Help to Re-unite virtually all Duers
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I don't think anyone should be persecuted for their vote, however
Many posts here take a vicious tone with Nader voters that should not at all be necessary. :(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
14. A bit of news
that might amuse you... Public Citizen might actually be unionized by the end of the week. They're voting on it now:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A52882-2004Feb18?language=printer
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Nader isn't connected with Public Citizen anymore, I believe
Or so the group says themselves. Anyway, this thread needs a kick.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Kick, Nader fans need to read this for themselves. (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lams712 Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
17. You are being entirely disingenusous....
....I'm sure if you looked close enough at my financial particulars (or anyone else's) like my 401(k) or my mutual fund, you'd find that I technically "own" fractions of big corporations too. Stock ownership is NOT equal to CONTROL (maybe you should read 'The New Inustrial State' or 'Economics and the Public Purpose', both by John Kenneth Galbraith). How does that answer my point about the Democrats going down a right-wing path for a decade and a half?????
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Nader's own agencies protested the very fund he owned.
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 06:48 PM by jpgray
This is the definition of hypocrisy. Read the Salon article--he blasted Gore for the same investments he himself had (Wal-Mart). Nader has a lot more money than you do, and he also laments the corporate evil done by these companies. Therefore, he should not provide them with active financial support. Nader claims he is better than the Democrats, not that he is just as craven as they are--he has created this standard for himself, and he would do well to live by it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lams712 Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Yeah, whatever....
...I'm a union member, but sometimes I shop at stores that are non-union and eat at restaurants that are non-union, etc. It's not my fault that's the way it is. You can't change the way our economy is overnight.

I'm still against corporate evil, but sometimes I watch TV shows on, ...gasp... NBC!!!!! (which is owned by GE!!!!) or even the FOX network!!!! Have me (and MILLIONS of other Americans) taken out and shot for my support of corporate evil-doing!!!!!


You need to get real!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. You're rationalizing Nader's hypocrisy. Think about how sad that is.
Those cruise missiles from Raytheon kill real kids. Nader invested in that company. He declares Boeing and General Dynamics to be terrible examples of corporate greed and the ascendancy of the military industrial complex. Yet he invests in BOTH. If GORE is wrong in Nader's view for investing in Wal-Mart, how is Nader himself fine and dandy for investing in not only Wal-Mart, but the Gap, the Limtied, and other corporations that promote slave-labor? He has defined HIMSELF as a hypocrite who supports monstrous corporations. All I have to do is point out the facts, all the invectives have been supplied by Ralph himself.

That you're here making excuses for him proves my point. Kucinich is a better man when it comes to matching his words with actions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CBHagman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
20. This seems as good a time as any to mention the Skeleton Closet.
Web surfers of a political bent (And aren't we all?) will probably have looked at the Skeleton Closet for various candidates over the year. This particular website reveals the more unpleasant facts and/or allegations of our esteemed candidates.

I remember reading Richard Lugar's description in this particular feature, and he didn't come off that badly. But others come in for a real beating.

Anyway, here's Nader's link:

www.realchange.org/nader.htm

Enjoy, or vomit, depending on your bent.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat May 18th 2024, 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC