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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:06 AM
Original message
The Dean campaign: Fears of victory and civil war
Edited on Sun Feb-29-04 11:21 AM by BeyondGeography
I haven't seen this posted anywhere, so here goes:

Divide and Bicker
The Dean Campaign's hip, high-tech image hid a nasty civil war
WASHINGTON POST
Feb. 29, 2004
By Howard Kurtz


The feuding and backbiting that plagued the Howard Dean campaign had turned utterly poisonous. Behind the facade of a successful political operation, senior officials plotted against each other, complained about the candidate and developed one searing doubt.

Dean, they concluded, did not really want to be president.

In different conversations and in different ways, according to several people who worked with him, Dean said at the peak of his popularity late last year that he never expected to rise so high, that he didn't like the intense scrutiny, that he just wanted to make a difference. "I don't care about being president," he said. Months earlier, as his candidacy was taking off, he told a colleague: "The problem is, I'm now afraid I might win."

As Dean was swallowed by the bubble that envelops every major candidate, he allowed his campaign to sink into a nasty civil war that crippled decision making and damaged morale. In the end, say some of those who uprooted their lives for him, these tensions hastened the implosion that brought Dean down.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15741-2004Feb28.html

(Registration required)
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. I don't know anything about the infighting
That happens in a lot of campaigns, I imagine.

I'm not at all surprised to hear he didn't really want to be President. I heard Trippi quoted once that they'd started up to make some points about health care and other issues. No one could have guessed they'd be as successful as they were. I imagine Dean's wife was horrified at the prospect of being first lady.

As far as I'm concerned, this reinforces the fact that Dean is in this for the good of the country and not his own ego.
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Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Sound like the old poli-sci truism...
Edited on Sun Feb-29-04 11:13 AM by Davis_X_Machina
...holds true -- ordinary, or good, presidents run to be someone who matters, great presidents run to do something that matters.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
16. Thank you!
Great point. Wouldn't it be nice to have a leader capable of looking within and questioning?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Dr. Dean sought to spotlight issues and reform our party.
I'm not sure whether he ever 'wanted to be President', or not, but I know that WE wanted him to be President. :)
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Could be another case of Dean saying whatever was on his mind
Or it could be an explanation for what many saw as self-destructive behavior leading up to Jan. 19 in Iowa.

Let the head-shrinking begin.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #6
93. Its more of a case of try to divide the movement so they wont succeed
More use of the "mainstream media" to spout the White House message to continue their assault on Dean, and keep the Democrats divided.

Its about as transparent as it gets.

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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. My thought also. I knew I was right about him.
He wasn't interested in the title, he was interested in doing the job.
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bushwakker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. Part of his appeal was that it wasn't about personal ambition
However, they really were not ready for prime time when the scrutiny began. I know this has been hashed over ad nauseum - but the Iowa speech was unforgivable. I haven't heard Trippi address this issue. What exactly was the plan (if any) for the Iowa speech? You have to realize that win or lose Dean was exposed to more people during his caucus night speech than at any other time. It was a great oppoturnity and they just blew it. It was like there was no plan at all.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
38. Of course, the fact that the speech was first distorted and then
aired 633 times by the media didn't have anything to do with it, eh?
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mountainvue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #38
48. That's not the point.
They should have been prepared for that.
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bushwakker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #38
50. the second he yowled it was over
that's what the media does with stuff like that. i knew the moment it happened that dean was toast. that it would be replayed and replayed. that leno and letterman would get into it. etc etc etc. not fair - and i took no pleasure in it.

now imagine if he comes out on caucus nite. says thanks to gephardt for a wonderful carreer in public service. congrats kerry and edwards for a fine campiagn. then says that a year ago no one knew who we were and now we're setting the tone for the whole party. now lets go to NH and win!! instead...well you know what he said. who advised him to do that?
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #50
82. Then why do people who were actually there say that it
was nothing?

The media portrayed it as something it was not.
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bushwakker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #82
85. It looked bad on tv
I can't speak to how it appeared in the hall. Also there was something I heard about the mike he was using contributing to the sound effect. Point is though - the few minutes that you get on national TV each primary night is prescious. Edwards has used these
moments terrifically. Dean was badly advised. For many voters it was their first exposure to him - and he blew it.

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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. I think Dean will continue to be a source
of reason and a supporter of progressive policies in the Democratic Party. Our local political group, named CPR (Citizens for Political Reform) said that they were going to back the Democratic candidate this time to get rid of Bush, but they would be watching the new Administration carefully. If they are still catering to corporate interests, ignoring the people, the group said they would be looking for a new political party. So Dr. Dean is not alone in his quest to give the people a voice. Let's hope the Democratic Party heeds the advice of the good doctor.
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hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
2. Oh, I think he wanted to be President ....
yup ... but I also agree that he considered himself a longshot and was as surprised by the goundswell as the rest of the country.

And there's no doubt about the infighting because even here in little, insignificant, traditionally Republican Indiana ... the various 'Dean support' Groups were at each others' throats. It's probably like that in all matters politic - given the ego quotient necessary just to consider fronting an activist group - but the way some of the people here act to one-up each other and steal supporters from each others' groups made me step back and wonder if I really want to ever be involved, on any level, again.


:hippie:
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
4. This doesn't surprise me in the least,
I'd long suspected that that's what was happening. That, coupled with his mismanagement of funds, his refusal to prep or be coached for debates, his frequent refusal to listen to his advisors and the lack of coordination among them, were also all contributors.

And the fact that his record showed that he really wasn't the populist progressive everyone painted him out to be certainly didn't help, either. He was not at all electable against Shrub, it's just that simple.

And I'm sick to death of all of the shit I and anyone else gets whenever I say anything like that from Dean supporters who can't face the facts.

He did make a difference, though, in that he forced Kerry and Edwards to move farther left and pay more attention to issues that they likely would not have had Dean's sudden rise not shown them the necessity of doing so. For that, I'm grateful.
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hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Actually, all the Dems were nearly broke by January 1
... the media just jumped on Dean because he was the 'front runner' at the time.

If I recall the CNN blurb correctly, at the first of the year,
Edwards had something like $500k left,
Lieberputz had $150k,
Kerry was close to a Mill in the hole,
and Dean had ... $4 Mill <?> left.


:hippie:
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. Woah there liberalhistorian
That "mismanagement of funds" never happened. His campaign's tactic was to win Iowa and New Hampshire and if he was successful in winning the two states, his campaign's coffers would have increased in size from all of the bandwagon supporters and he would have used that influx of money to go on to other states.

It was the tactic used by Kerry, also. By your definition Kerry mismanaged his funds, also, since he actually ran out and had to mortgage one of his homes.

So, let me tell you what I'm sick to death of, it's these smears on Dean from folks who should be trying to unite the Dean folks behind the nominee.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. I see a lot of people trying to unite
the Dean people behind the nominee, and I see a lot (certainly not all, but a lot) of Dean people refusing to even consider it, to even listen to anyone who doesn't worship Dean.

And that's not what Dean himself wants, he wants his supporters to unite behind the nominee, vote Dem and GET THE BUSHISTAS OUT OF THE WH! THAT is what's important to him, remember his emphasis on that in his withdrawal speech.

But I don't see too many Dean people following that, I see them retreating into bitterness, refusing to even concede any fault on Dean's part and blaming the Dems, the media, everyone and everything else.

There was even a thread here yesterday from a Dean person saying he'd only vote for the nominee if non-Dean people admitted that they were "puny wimpy Dem conservatives", and a whole list of other sins. It was incredibly inflammatory, rude, nasty, etc., etc. So it comes from both sides, you see. The thread was finally locked, but not until some really nasty things had been said.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #18
31. The problem with what you see is that it isn't true,
because there is no nominee yet.

I don't know about you, but I haven't even voted yet. So it gets tiresome when people tell me to get behind the nominee when there isn't one and I haven't even gotten a chance to vote.

Can you understand that?
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #31
89. What Dean meant
was that he wanted his supporters to vote for and get behind the EVENTUAL nominee, no matter who it was, even Kerry. I don't understand why that's so hard to understand. Because, frankly, if we don't support the Dem, then we can certainly look forward to the destruction of this country as we know it, because we won't survive another term of the Bushistas.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #18
33. What nominee?
:shrug:
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
44. the only "mismanagement of funds" was letting Trippi write his own checks
Trippi and his business partners got paid off for "media buys" so they had an incentive to promote as many "media buys" as they could. From all accounts, the TV commercials sucked, were aired too early and too spread out.

Trippi and cohorts walk off with $big bucks$.

The grassroots fans are to be commended and I hope they keep the scam artists and "consultants" away next time.
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #44
95. from the aforelinked article
Trippi openly grumbled about Dean giving the financial authority to deputy campaign manager Rogan. He and two other senior officials said they were mystified that the amounts they were told they had in the bank would abruptly shrink by millions of dollars after spending decisions had been made.

"With 20/20 hindsight, the biggest mistake I made was not to demand ironclad authority over the budget and check-writing," Trippi said. "Bob Rogan is a really good person, one of the best I've met in politics, but he had never run a presidential campaign before and it made no sense to put him in that position."

Said Rogan: "The revisionist historians are hard at work. Together we made some mistakes, all of us. What I managed was the checkbook, not the spending decisions. . . . It's preposterous to suggest I was the one making those decisions unilaterally." He said Dean, Trippi, McMahon and pollster Paul Maslin were all involved, a point confirmed by McMahon.
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littlejoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
52. It was mismanagement, plain and simple. No two ways to
sugarcoat it.
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. The important part
He did make a difference, though, in that he forced Kerry and Edwards to move farther left and pay more attention to issues that they likely would not have had Dean's sudden rise not shown them the necessity of doing so. For that, I'm grateful.

That's the really important contribution of the Dean campaign. I really wonder if we'd be going after Bush as we are if Dean hadn't shown that that was the way to win.
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
83. I can face facts, but it's something of a slap in the face - from Dean.
His behavior completely jives with this report. That's sickening.

He just wanted to make a difference?.. He was, in the worst sense of the term, satisfied with losing.

That's not forgivable.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. Ooops...except it's not true.
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
86. Can you explain
how someone (Dean) whom you say was not a "progressive" "force" Kerry and Edwards farther left? Was he so conservative he scared them across the line? Are you saying he was too far "left"? I'm truly confused.
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Indiana Democrat Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
10. B-b-b-b-but......Wait? I thought it was the Big Bad Media's fault??
Quote from the article...

"As Dean was swallowed by the bubble that envelops every major candidate, he allowed his campaign to sink into a nasty civil war that crippled decision making and damaged morale. In the end, say some of those who uprotted their lives for him, these tensions hastened the implosion that brought Dean down."

Anyone who is honest with themselves has known this to be the simple truth since Dean's meltdown began.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Kerry's campaign had same problem but worse and earlier.
Kerry fired his campaign manager. His staff was rebeling, etc. etc. He won though. Was Kerry's campaign's infighting the reason that he won?

Dean stated he'd break up big media about 1 week before Iowa.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. That was one mistake that Dean did make.
Edited on Sun Feb-29-04 11:36 AM by janx
He shouldn't have said it.

I wonder why Kurtz doesn't go into the percentage of negative press coverage Dean got relative to that of the other campaigns...

Dean had the Osama ad, the DLC, the wierd stuff in IA and NH from his rivals, the the full-blown media machine descend on him all at once.

It's interesting to notice the innuendo in this hit piece and how Kurtz picks quotes out of context.

Jodi Wilgoren used to write hit pieces about Dean all the time, and Kurtz even manages to mention her in there!
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caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
63. Exactly! Dean stated he'd break up big media about 1 week before Iowa.
And that's when "they" turned on him.
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #10
30. It was the media.
Dean got around 42% positive press, while the others averaged around 72% positive. Dean threatened to break up media monopolies. There is no amount of campaign financing and ads that can counter the national media. Dean was clearly not acceptable to the powers that be. Maybe in 4 or 8 years, but in 2004, the RW and media run the country. All I can wish for is to have Dean help to change things, get progressives into office, etc.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #30
61. That Is The Biggest Load Of Crap About The Media vs. Dean
Dean got glowing, unquestioning Media coverage for months on end.

It wasn't really until just before Iowa and his wife's absence was noted that it turned and then just barely.

And then, after the Media was done having their way with Dean's outlandish Iowa speech... they gave him a chance to rehabilitate himself.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. Find the Hardball transcript...he advocated ownership regs for the media.
You need to check out the dates on that. I have it on my computer...will find.

Matthews kept on, Dean was honest. He said we were not getting all the news we needed because of the ownership monopolies.

Just before he started going down really fast. Oh, yeah.

Every candidate has made mistakes, not just Dean. I just figure since he is out, why keep on pounding? But then I remember that Hardball segment.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #61
75. Read this article again, and notice carefully Kurtz's defense
of the media and how many times he refers to the media/reporters. Note the Jody W. mention--a woman who regularly wrote hit pieces on Dean and who, just coincidentally, writes for the same paper that Kurtz does.
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Voltaire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #61
76. Exactly what was wrong with the Iowa speech??
The only thing wrong is it was overblown. Not that he supposedly screamed like a madman. I was standing 5 feet away from him at the time and so I have a bit of context about the whole thing, unlike most folks who continue to repeat nonsensical bullshit about the scream. I really thought that the voters of this country were a lot more mature than to fall for such bullshit, so imagine my shock and horror this election season when they swallowed the whole "he's unelectable because he's angry and a little crazy...just look at the SCREAM!!!".

Suffice to say, I won't be making that mistake again. The Scream eh? That was really a reason not to vote for him right? Kerry is going to win because folks are too fucking dumb to do their own homework and buy a clue.

But you ABB guys know better. I don't know why I even bother.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #76
81. A lot of people believe virtually anything they see on TV.
It has gotten that bad.
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Voltaire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
14. Here's the goddamned deal
The Media and the DNC are tired of reading post-mortems that pretty much say that those two entities in combination helped mightly to gundeck the campaign of one Howard Dean. So their designated whore Howie Kurtz steps up to the plate to paint the picture of the campaign being totally incompetent and therefore absolving these two parties of any responsibility.

I saw this IMMEDIATELY when they played it up on CSPAN this morning TWICE!

Fuck Howie Kurtz. Fuck the Media. Fuck the entrenched powers that be in the Democratic Party and fuck ANYONE who does not see this whole rotten business for what it is. Folks from other campaigns can say that it is something else, but the proof is there for anyone who cares to look.

I ain't holding my breath for that one. I hope you are all happy with the presumptive, oh-so electable nominee. I'll even vote for the sumbitch, since he is a better sumbitch than the current sitting sumbitch. But I don't like it. I don't like the way it went down and I will NEVER shutup about it. At least not until this weaselly disgusting Democratic Party is fixed. That may take long!
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. Exactly. Kurtz took it upon himself to paper over all of that.
I almost laughed when I read parts of this article.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
46. hear, hear!
:bounce:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
15. 5 pages in WP on Dean, and he is not even running. Wow!
Edited on Sun Feb-29-04 11:39 AM by madfloridian
I think there are very few quotes there from Dean himself. I do agree that no one expected this campaign to take off like it did.

You know why? He just said things that needed to be said, and the people liked it. Then he couldn't just say things anymore because he was supposed to be careful.

Vicious circle.

I remember once he said he was talking to a huge crowd in WA last summer, and he looked out and realized it really could happen. He said he felt very deeply then what an awesome responsibility that would be.

When he began he surged to the front because he just said what he thought. Then he couldn't do that anymore. He just wanted to make a difference, and in that he truly succeeded.

Methinks too many others are quoted there, not Dean himself. And he sure does get a lot of attention for not being a candidate. LOL

Maybe someone or someones decided he was not dead enough??
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Voltaire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. Yep, for a lot of chickenshits he ain't dead enough
so they have to pound him some more.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #20
53. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Voltaire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. The problem party has with us is that we are NOT dittoheads
Unlike the ABB contingent who constantly shove the fantasy of the oh so electable presumptive frontrunner up our asses. So sorry we aren't willing to go baaaa like everyone else. I suppose being demonized 24-7 in all directions will do that to you.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Funny how that works, isn't it? n/t
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littlejoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Funny, I keep hearing the same song, (ie. temper tantrum)
from die-hard Dean supporters.

Smells like teen spirit!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #60
66. If you don't like it, why don't you skip the threads about Dean?
Then you would feel better inside, wouldn't you?
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Voltaire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #60
67. If all you have is snide insults
Save em. I'm forty-five years old, don't respond kindly to folks who insinuate that I am a child or politically naive....as Kerry supporters and others on this board that do not know their ass from a hole in the ground are prone to do. Dean's campaign made mistakes. Dean's campaign was also torpedoed from the outside by the press and by his own party. The two situations are not mutually exclusive. Insults and innuendo and half-truths like I see from you and others on this board do not help heal the very real rift that is in this party. You ABB folks might paper it over for now, but your candidates are actually gonna have to perform progressively if they want to heal this party. I ain't seeing it on this board and frankly, I ain't surprised.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #67
72. I'm not either, and I'm a year older than you are. n/t
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littlejoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #67
74. It may be unfair to paint everyone with a broad brush, which is
exactly what I DIDN'T do, if you read my post carefully. Once again, I'm seeing tons of spin.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. You should not be reading Dean threads. They upset you.
I am a heck of a lot older than either of them, and I don't like being called ditto head and treated like a child.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. Sometimes, yes, we should avoid the upsetting threads.
I just can't figure out why Dean threads are upsetting to some people on this board. Even if they revel in posting what they think are negative threads about Dean, they then STILL seem to get upset. :shrug:
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Voltaire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. They post this crap
And then they get angry with folks that come up with facts about the situation. I have been on this board 2 years and have watched all the discussions this political season and have not commented. But that Kurtz article was the last straw. I am tired of bashing from people that do not know their facts. Which constitutes the majority of anti-Dean folks I have seen on this board. So I had to post today. And tomorrow or Tuesday, whenever Howie Kurtz has his online chat on the Washington Post, I am going to get with his ass too. I have had enough.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. You ARE?
Kurtz regularly does these things?
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Voltaire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #80
91. Yep, every week he does them.
Check www.washingtonpost.com, you have to do a free registration. Its either tomorrow or Tuesday, which one escapes me right now.
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LizW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
51. Reminds me of couple staring at the portrait of Kramer
Man: "He's a loathsome, offensive brute....yet I can't look away."

Woman: "He sickens me.........I love it!

Man: "I love it, too!"

;)
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
22. Note the two types of quotes: Trippi...his view...O'Conner..Dean's view.
SNIP..."Trippi, 47, said it was "hard for a campaign manager to function" amid the "infighting" when he was constantly being undermined."

Trippi thought Trippi was being undermined.

O'Connor:
SNIP..."O'Connor, 39, joking about her "evil" reputation, said that "my mind boggles at some of this stuff. . . . You don't manage Howard Dean, and that was a problem for some people who came in and wanted to manage him. I understood that. Other people just didn't understand that. . . . You learn who the loyal people are. You learn who your friends are."

She was right, you don't manage Howard Dean. Nor should anyone have expected to do so.
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Voltaire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. A lot of this stuff has been printed and gone over before
Now everyone, Deaniacs and Dean detractors ask yourself honestly why this particular autopsy of a DEAD campaign had to happen at this time. Then I will refer you to my previous post.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Exactly. Why 5 pages, why now? A non-candidate..5 pages?
Edited on Sun Feb-29-04 11:48 AM by madfloridian
:shrug:

As you said in your previous post, he "ain't dead enough" for some folks.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #27
34. You think it will stop here?
All this pissing and moaning about 5 whole pages in the WP. Wait for the books. There will more than a few, some coming from within Dean's camp, you can be sure.
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seaglass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. There's a special planned for March on MSNBC I think.
They've shown some clips of it, it looks similar to Pelosi's Journeys with George.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. You're kidding. Please say you're kidding...
:eyes:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #40
94. Oh God, I hope they don't call it Journeys with Howard. LOL
I can just imagine how they will treat the issue. Oh, Geez, here we go.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #34
45. Well, I am not pissing and moaning....just curious.
That is all. We still have primaries going on, I have not had a chance to vote yet in my primary, Dean has dropped out of the race. I just don't see why 5 pages right now?

I have a feeling that since this campaign was like no other in its make up, that it will be scrutinized thoroughly. But I would expect it after the primaries, as an afterthought.

I just have a funny feeling that someone really thinks Dean is not dead enough yet.

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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. It's also an attempt at backside covering, MF.
Edited on Sun Feb-29-04 12:43 PM by janx
The media will never admit that they were complicit in this and will do what they can to make it appear otherwise.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
39. Exactly! Editing quotes to have certain words stick in the reader's mind.
Edited on Sun Feb-29-04 12:20 PM by KoKo01
"Undermined, Unmanageable." If one had time to go through Kurtz's trash you would see he followed Gingrich's "Talking Points of Key Words to Undermine Dems" to a T. Every quote is designed to be unflattering to Dean's campaign. Even the title of his trash article! :nuke:
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
23. Just remember that Kurtz is a "Media Whore" and his wife Sherri Annis was
a Campaign Manager for Ahhhnold in Calif. I tried to get through this article, but then realized that it was Kurtz putting a spin on what the Dean Campaign was about, and I am suspect of the story he weaves from what he says are his exclusive interviews. Having read much of Howie before I realized what a "Whore" he was in my "naive" days, I learned how he writes an article putting in what he wants to use for "slant" and leaving out what doesn't suit his purposes.

That WaPoo gave him so much print space for this article says that we should be very wary.

I think there are grains of truth here, but his conclusions might not be the reality of the situation and maybe as time goes on we will hear the "real" story from a better source than "Howie the Whore."

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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. I haven't read much of his, but I noticed that immediately.
It's as if he picked over his pieces and quotes (many of which are out of context), and then arranged them like poetry magnets in some very loose chronological order.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
24. Here's one thing I never understood
Dean's almost complete refusal to link his life as a doctor with his political thinking:

<Even the highest ranking advisers found Dean resistant to changing his approach. Dean strategists say campaign chairman Steve Grossman repeatedly urged the candidate to talk about treating patients as a physician and expressed frustration that Dean never took the advice.

<"Unfortunately, Howard never took advantage of that unique quality and experience he had, that of being a doctor," Grossman said. Had Dean used more "personal examples" involving patients, "it would have humanized him and created more of a personal link to the voters."
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. I have never had personable doctors. Not usually.
They are just analytical as a rule. Personality is not a thing I attribute to my doctors. That is really just spin there.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #25
32. Personality is something one does attribute to politicians, however
Maybe doctors aren't cut out (ooh, bad choice of words there) to be politicians at the highest level.

At least that would save us from Bill Frist.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. Bill Frist and Howard Dean are quite different, trust me.
:hi:

I will agree that there is a pragmatic nature to Dean and to doctors as a whole, though. Pragmatism doesn't work as well in campaigns as pandering does.

Dean definitely does not pander.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Thank God he didn't listen to that suggestion.
Edited on Sun Feb-29-04 12:02 PM by janx
Can you picture how ridiculous that would have been? He did it a few times, but to ratchet that up would have been awful.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. He did, sometimes.
But to do so consistently would be pandering in the extreme.
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #28
96. "I'm a doctor, but I don't play one on TV"
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
37. Dean, unlike some arrogant people, didn't feel like pimping his biography
I agree with him personally. It is a gag worthy campaigning tactic. However, people eat it up.
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littlejoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #37
54. Maybe he just didn't want all of his "subjects" to know about
his family's vast wealth. You know, little things like Dean-Witter investment firm, hospital holdings, HMO's and immense blocs of pharmaceutical stocks.

Hardly the type of thing you want progrogressives who rail at big business people to know.

That sort of thing might just upset some "dittoheads", oh, I mean "Deaniacs".
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Many many Dean supporters are quite moderate, like me.
I have said repeatedly that the core of his support is not really liberal. We have Republicans and Independents as a huge part of the constituency. Some of the largest active groups formed already from the campaign have been formed by Republicans, who have now shunned their party.

I don't know where you are getting this take on Dean. BTW, his famiy is NOT the Dean in Dean Witter.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. "Subjects" "dittoheads" "Deaniacs"
I am a "supporter" of his candidacy. I think some of the names are rather insulting.
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littlejoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. I think they are too. Are you to ignore the fact that many, if not
Edited on Sun Feb-29-04 03:22 PM by littlejoe
most of his supporters revel in being called "Deaniacs"? And to my way of thinking, when people blindly follow their leader as some sort of a messiah, oblivious to the leader's shortcomings, it reminds one of Rush Limbaugh's "dittoheads".
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #57
69. I think when you call us "dittoheads" it is name calling.
Deaniacs is pretty much a given, but using the term ditto heads is a bit much.
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #54
71. Are you really that ignorant?
Or is that just a deliberate attempt to paint a connection to an investment firm where there is none?

Just so you know, there is no familial connection between Howard Dean and Dean Witter. Just so you know, "Dean Witter" was the founder's full name, ergo Dean was his FIRST name rather than surname.

But I guess if a lie/smear is repeated often enough, who cares if it's the truth- right?


Good God. Dean's not even running anymore, yet some of you people can't let go of your hatred. Get a freaking life.
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #54
92. Dean-Witter investment firm???
Wow, people just make this shit up, don't they?

Maybe he didn't want them to know about Dean-Witter because it's not his family!

But don't let the facts get in your way.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
41. "Any candidate that wants the job doesn't deserve it"
Perhaps I seriously misjudged Dean?
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Reluctant presidents like Truman and Eisenhower can be good ones.
Maybe we are missing something?;)
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pezcore64 Donating Member (498 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
49. Hum
I dunno about people in the Dean camp fighting each other, but I know alot of dean supporters who feel really outcast from the Democratic party as a whole again like they did in 2000 unfortunately.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #49
68. Agreed. But this time it's actually
worse.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
62. Someone I know said Dean just wanted to raise healthcare issues
Edited on Sun Feb-29-04 03:50 PM by zulchzulu
I know someone who knows someone who worked with Dean and said that the mission that Dean originally wanted to do was bring healthcare in as a big issue in the 2004 race. That was it.

It looks like this story seems to verify Dean's original intentions that the person who knew him well thought he was doing in the first place. The problem is that he may have led those astray by taking his original intentions too far.

I've begun to feel the web version of the Dean campaign was a well-run Webvan.com with the only product that they could very effectively ship being bruised peaches. Or maybe sour grapes.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. Well, your sources certainly sound reliable to me!
:eyes:
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #64
90. Must all knowledge and conversation have to be linked to a web site?
Edited on Sun Feb-29-04 11:18 PM by zulchzulu
If you had a conversation with someone at a pub and made a reference to it here, should I ask if The Nation mentions it in a column? Should that conversation have a URL that would be linked; maybe a blog entrance that can be scrutinized and Googled?

The main source is someone who had worked in the State Department for years and lived in DC for a while. The woman who he knew had worked for Dean in Vermont for a few years and was going to work for the campaign. She knew he wanted to bring up healthcare issues.

If I can find out her name, I'll make sure to email you so that you can get verification and possibly a date.
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jburton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
70. Office Politics
in a Political Campaign Office.

Shocked, I tell you!


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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. Yep. Some of this sounds as if Kurtz was talking to the
office secretaries. Note he doesn't reveal most of this "sources." I've seen the media do this to the Dean campaign before.
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
87. I quit reading Kurtz when he went through his Gore-bashing era
I didn't bother to read the article about Dean because I knew it was just a lot of spin about what the press wants the public to think about the demise of the Dean campaign. It doesn't want to suffer any long-term adverse ramifications from the people noticing a pattern in its behavior towards populist-type candidates. I think it is clear that Dean suffered the same type of deplorable press treatment that Gore endured, but Dean's seems to have been a bit more ravaging. Gore did prevail despite Kurtz' efforts to the contrary (Gore won the popular vote) but Dean didn't even make it to Super Tuesday. I guess the more practice the press gets at bashing political candidates, the better it gets at it.

This article reminds me a good Catholic journalist seeking political absolution for his breach-of-public trust transgressions. It wasn't the fault of the press that Dean's candidacy deteriorated; it was all Dean's fault. Why at this point is this even significant?

I think it is significant for two reasons. At one point, the DLC strategists made a deliberate decision to shed its liberal base, if that's what it had to do, to position itself to attract Independent and moderate Republican votes. At this juncture, simply looking at the numbers and the projected closeness of the election, I believe there is some considered nervousness setting in that the Democratic party might actually Need The Liberal votes to take the election. The stakes to the strategists are great, not in terms of asserting political issues and viewpoints, but in terms of gaining raw influence and consequently big bucks, should they effect a win. The win/loss gamble without the liberal vote is potentially exasperated by the fact Nader has now entered the campaign and with the possible splintering of the Dean faction from the base, victory in November doesn't look as much like a sure thing.

From time to time, in The Washington Post, we see articles written at the urging of prominent political personalities, and I believe Kurtz was urged to write this article to vindicate the press and to attempt to bring the Dean faction of the party back home. Come back to the political family and think ABB so we can beat Bush* in the fall.

I do not believe this will happen. The scars are too deep. It's become clear to anyone who doesn't accept the party elite making its political decisions for them that the base has no voice in deciding who our candidate will be and what issues will be discussed. Perceptions to the contrary are simply a political mirage.

Watching the press and the Democratic party leaders effect the demise of the Dean campaign has had an earth-shattering impact on my political grounding. I have seen this phenomenon twice now, the press together with the party elite taking out a candidate who spoke to my issues, so I am leaving the Democratic party in 2004. I will be registering as an Independent but still championing social issues and bashing Bush* and his right-wing agenda. No longer will I be exposed to any pressure to move to the right, where I absolutely do not want to be, in order to support the candidate of my party. My sense of it is when I shed my Democratic party skin to become an Independent, I will not be alone.

Frankly, I see no difference in Bill Clinton, James Carville or Paul Begala deciding who will politically speak for me than Renquist, et al., doing that very same thing.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. I understand the pain you feel right now.
Your paragraph:
"Watching the press and the Democratic party leaders effect the demise of the Dean campaign has had an earth-shattering impact on my political grounding. I have seen this phenomenon twice now, the press together with the party elite taking out a candidate who spoke to my issues

They are not stopping either on this thing with Dean. They did not ever start giving Gore any decent press. His best speeches were made on MoveOn, not mainstream press.

They do not think Dean is dead enough yet, and they will not let Gore back in to the party's future either.

I have watched in this state how they effectively talked Dean out of the race. Many of us wrote letters to the editors about Maddox's statement in the NYT. 3 of our Dean group who can almost always count on getting letters published....can NOT. They will not print letters about that topic. No letters have appeared at all about Dean since early in the campaign.

We called Maddox, the state Dem chair, and we wrote him. He has refused to respond to any of us about his statements about Dean and his sweeping statement that Kerry would win Florida. NO response.

The Democrats have effectively used the press for what they want.


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