Foreign government accesses Diebold tabulator.

[passy]

:Some questions I have based on the Brad Blog article:

What if a foreign government had managed to get access to the tabulating computers?
Shouldn't the Department of Homeland Security have acted on that possibility?
What if Cuban, Chinese or even Iranian computer engineers or hackers had changed election results to support Kerry instead of * ?
If nothing was done about it by the people who knew, it only means that the hole was left there to give an advantage to the eventual winner.
Because if Diebold or the administration had feared that the scenario I mention above could take place they would have plugged the hole.
Once again the DHS has some explaining to do. This is a huge security issue; I think that if we simply see these revelations as proof that someone like Rove could access and change the results, then we are looking at the wrong issue.
Because if anyone could have accessed tabulators, then terrorists, foreign governments, corporations and well maybe Karl Rove had the possibility of changing the results of elections.
Can we really begin to imagine the consequences of such a huge security blunder? This is worse than 9/11 or Katrina, the government and companies very close to the administration, left a gaping hole in our democracy for anyone with bad intentions to violate her.
This is not a smoking gun this is more evidence of complete and utter incompetence. This is the issue here.
"Our Democracy" was left vulnerable and defenseless against possible attacks that could be catastrophic for our nation.

[Twist_U_Up]

1. Great Point !!

I have been following the elections from 2004 since nov 3 and I have yet to see this point brought up.

great observation

[annabanana]

2. nominated

yet another clue that they don't give a ratz behind about our country.

[applegrove]

3. Not everyone believes diebold is anything more than a red herring.

The votes were suppressed in so many ways. Line ups, likely easy "exit poll" tampering, calls to parolees, vetting people based on race, bullying by officials at the poll, apathy, stealing hearts & minds, and on and on. Remember there were exit poll problems with Bush elections in Texas before Diebold. And Exit poll issues in places where there was no diebold. So many way to toy with how things are perceived and such.

Nobody is saying Diebold has code that is absolutely closed. There are normal forward and backward linkages in all types of computers - so that they can be adapted one day.

We don't have a smoking gun on diebold. You do not. Nefarious are too tricky to do the obvious thing. They'll destroy property out of anger or desperation or to set somebody up a scapegoat - but as to playing with a machine - too easily proved. But is more likely they just messed with suppression because that is not provable in a court of law.

What Diebold and "suddenly released statements" do is separate us from each other. That is how Diebold is most effective. Come election time - you and I will be at each others throats (or people representative of how we think differently on the issue).


I do agree entirely that we need laws to ensure voter transparency. Very much so.

[passy]

5. My post is about the national security issue.

I do not dismiss any of the concerns that you express in your post.
I was simply pointing out that the faults inherent in the election machines and software made by Diebold were public knowledge and should have set off alarm bells, because of the possibility, as I mention in my post, that foreign elements could have altered election results.

[applegrove]

7. Well that is true. But "alarm bells" are what the GOP like. It gets

us all upset - it stirs the pot - it makes all the Dems under the big tent (who wouldn't put things past Bush) at each others necks. Why else would they call the damned thing "Diebold".

This voter transparency issue is working for them right now. It keeps us from working together.

Thanks for you post.

[autorank]

23. Great points applegrove; the road to perdition is well traveled.

The Diebold speculation by passy is a key part of the process. And I think her take is excellent but there is no one smoking gun. This is, however, powerful evidence of core bias...homeland security is subordinate to open options on a Bush reelection.

As for easy "exit poll" tampering, they blew it this time, or someone blew it for them when the sequential updates were released giving us the real exit polls. Mitofsky came up short at the end of the day. AP asked that he revise the poll and voila, he adjusted it so it matched the election return. Now that's what I call real easy exit poll tampering.

Nevertheless, the original evidence is available. But exits are one part, an important part, just as this story is a major part (I think it has legs).

Ultimately, it ends up about race...voter suppression, the varieties of political experience gathered over decades used to suppress black voters or any minority with political opinions to the left of center.

[Peace Patriot]

28. I will consider your interesting view that Diebold is a "red herring" when

they drop the "trade secret" provisions in their contracts with the states that permit SECRET, PROPRIETARY vote tabulation. Since SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code was in force in the 2004 election, with Diebold and ES&S--two far rightwing corporations--tabulating 80% of the nation's votes, there is really little else to discuss. The election was entirely non-transparent and unverifiable.

AND, there is considerable external evidence that Kerry won.

Non-transparent, unverifiable, INVALID election, with evidence of a wrong result.

BECAUSE of the SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code, we can never know for sure what happened. That is, I would surmise, the very purpose of SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code--to prevent recounts and audits, and to leave it all in hazyville, like, there's always corruption, and many ways to fiddle elections, and, yeah, they probably employed them all, and isn't it a shame we can't really know, and let's move on and not get all divided about it--and not look it straight in the eye: *SECRET,* *PROPRIETARY* PROGRAMMING CODE CONTROLLED BY *BUSHITE* CORPORATIONS.

What occurred on Nov. 2, 2004--and what will be occurring in 2006 and 2008--doesn't deserve the word "election."

And Democratic election officials and other Democratic Party leaders are responsible for letting that happen, due to corruption and collusion (and, in the case of Republicans, criminal intent--they were the ones who blocked a "paper trail" requirement, and prevented accountability, and they are benefiting the most, to the tune of billions and billions and billions of dollars in porkbarrel).

If we are divided between Democrats who no longer believe in democracy, and those who do, then that division must stand.

There is nothing more important than correcting this egregiously fraudulent election SYSTEM. It is responsible for the Democrats' mealy-mouthed defense of our Republic, and their failure to represent the progressive majority in this country. They, too, are beholden to Diebold and ES&S, and to the corrupt Democratic election officials who were partying with those companies at the Beverly Hilton this August.*

I was willing to swallow Kerry's half-assed policies for the sake of our country. I am NOT willing to swallow the theft of my right to vote!

That's where I draw the line. Either you support FALSE elections, with secret formulae used to "count" the votes, or you believe in democracy. There is no middle ground.

-------------

*See Amaryllis' post on the event at the Beverly Hilton this August--a week of fun, sun and high-end shopping for election officials from around the country, sponsored by Diebold, ES&S and Sequoia. That's where our democracy is being handed over.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x380340

[applegrove]

4. Just another thought to scare us big Dem tent away from each other.

We need a strategy for election day. We need to focus on being together instead of being apart. If highlighting weaknesses in the security of the machines help people come together - great!

[leveymg]

6. If we're hearng about this now, the damage has already been done.

I always believed that if there was electronic voting machine tampering, it was being done by proxy, to the benefit of Bushco and the Republican ERW, and PNAC.

I would look closely at a small but tech-savvy Mid-East theocracy.

[applegrove]

8. Relax. Everyone knows they played with voter suppression in many

ways. We don't have a smoking gun on diebold data messing - but it serves its purpose by separating us from each other depending on the level of fear we each have.

That is the danger.

We need to work together on this. And following a theory and insisting it is true before we know for sure - is divisive.

We just don't have any proof that diebold did anything more than suppress votes when they were not placed in large enough numbers in certain districts.

[leveymg]

10. We can also be united by fear and anger. We should be.

If there's any evidence of illegal foreign intervention in American elections, I would support a military-backed raid to arrest those responsible. Such offenses are more damaging to the national interest than terrorism. The penalties should be severe.

The problem here, as with 9/11, is the insurmountable conflict of interest and the inability of the Bush Administration to investigate itself and its friends. There needs to be an independent federal prosecutor's office, like the Federal Reserve, that has the power to investigate and prosecute political crimes, including voting offenses and misuse of power, such as lying to Congress about Iraq WMD and Treasongate.

[Usrename]

12. Agreed that we shouldn't be divided on this.

But the issue raised in the OP wasn't whether or not the vote was tampered with. The point he's making is that a security issue with the software was known about, and that no action was taken to correct it. This is IMHO more serious than domestic election fraud (i.e. the things you noted in your posts) because it leaves our democracy vulverable to outside (forieign) manipulation. National Security issue.

[applegrove]

14. This is a totally new fear. Now we can be smashed into even more

pieces. This one is even further than the known truth.

[passy]

15. No it's a perfect opportunity to go back to paper.

[CantGetFooledAgain]

19. Ding ding ding!

This is exactly what occurred to me when I saw this story. Wingers will look the other way at the possibility of tampering, since they've done so well in recent elections. But bring terrorism or sabotage into the picture, and they'll come around.

The machines are not secure. We need paper ballots AND secure, documented processes for ballot handling, counting, and recounting.

[papau]

18. "This one is even further than the known truth" - there is NO KNOWN TRUTH

A few messages to Langley might find out that folks there believe one way or another about Diebold - but that would not be known truth.

Heck - even if the code is there, no proof it was "intended" to be there is there? (Shades of Grand Theft Auto game "coffee" scene, eh?)

And no proof that any such ability to fix the election was ever used - eh? - math is not a proof to our US National Media, so no stats please.....

Indeed even with a confession, the GOP can say the confessor is a liar or is biased or - God forbid - once gave a contribution to the Democratic Party.

[applegrove]

31. I mean discernible truth. The kind with first person witnesses.

We base much of our critique on Diebold on exit polls. But exit polls that are off have followed George Bush from Texas. Before Diebold. They also exist in other voting districts. So why do you assume the "exit polls" are right? They could have been fooled with by Conservatives being told not to answer polls - or told to only park on the right (when the pollster was on the left 100 feet away from the voting station).

We don't know how much of the suppression goes to each of these things. We just don't know.

[Usrename]

21. never happened?

http://www.us-cert.gov/cas/bulletins/SB04-252.html#diebold

So what is the known truth?

<edit> or you can scroll down to Diebold on this page

http://www.us-cert.gov/cas/body/bulletins/SB2004_windowsOS.html

The point is that they knew.

[EST]

16. By that standard, there is no absolute

"smoking gun" proof that there was any voter suppression, either. The excuses and alibis they came up with were, taken individually, quite believable and reasonable-ergo-no foul.

[applegrove]

17. There is much annecdotal and TV news coverage of the games

played in 2000 & 2004. First Person Witness accounts.

[EST]

27. Good point.

Still, having listened to a little of the available accounts, again, individually, I can see that the excuses the culture of corruption crowd come up with (humidity, terror alerts, acts of dog, luck of the broken machines, etc.) could be considered reasonable, say if someone hasn't the time or inclination to listen beyond local news and is not aware of the bigger picture. It is in the aggregate that there emerges a pattern, a chillingly obvious picture of election fraud and misbehavior.
Although a bit more esoteric and therefore somewhat less tangible, the evidence of massive fraud at the vote counting step has emerged through the graces of so many who have the bent for the mathematics and statistics involved in fact-checking the bbv, here at DU and elsewhere. As individual anomalies, they are attributable to just that. However, in the aggregate, they, too, provide evidence and pattern of a massive fraud.
If one can organize, with boosh's help (more stupid speeches, please!), the attention that the various disempowerments deserve, the bbv fraud will be looked at far more sympathetically, as well.

[applegrove]

30. No actually - it is not great proof. You have to assume that the "exit

polls" were not tampered with and that they alone provide an accurate map of what else went wrong.

"Off Exit polls" having been following Bush his career and in places with no Diebold too.

So you do not have exacting reasons to belief any data was toyed with inside the machines.

Doesn't matter. The machines play their intended roles and divide us anyway - which will result in apathy & more suppressed votes next time around.

IMHO

[EST]

38. Accurate.

I'm also making the assumption that there was not a nearly identical effort made by the DLC or other influential democratic movers and pushers, made a bit doubtful by the resistance to investigation from nearly all the powers that be.

[Benhurst]

9. Recommended NT

[liberal N proud]

11. I learned last night that our county is voting on all Diebold machines

AAARRRRR!
:grr:

[passy]

13. Thanks for all the recommendations.

I'm quite confident that this is the right angle to use to finally convince the sheeple that we are not safe under *.

[Verve]

20. If a foreign government had accessed Diebold, Chimpy wouldn't have won.

No country in their right mind would have helped bush rig the election. He and his cronies are a stand alone administration who are hated worldwide. It was an inside job which, due to this fact, is going to be hard to uncover.

However, the argument is an excellent one, again showing how vulnerable we are, thanks to GW.

[passy]

22. I do believe that * rigged the election.

It's just that this argument is much more efficient to make people understand our concerns about the machines without alienating them with talk of election fraud.

[glitch]

26. Sure, but then they lock down access to their code, and we still have

rigged elections, only the illusion they are secure because
"We Trust in Diebold, an American Company".

It's a good point as long as the very rational fear of corrupt code only leads to paper votes publicly counted.

[NoBushSpokenHere]

34. China would certainly have a vested interest n/t

[passy]

35. Well! Electing * is like pressing a self destruct button isn't it.

[autorank]

24. passy, Outstanding Post... you struck a nerve.

"Foreign government ... Diebold tabulator" I've never seen a post get 11 recommendations between 5 am and 11.

We need an angle, a story that's simple and compelling. This is it and your angel is right on target.

Thanks.

[Pacifist Patriot]

25. Zing!

[Peace Patriot]

29. passy, you make a good point, but I think we have much more to fear

from the Bush Cartel than we do from any foreign government. SECRET, PROPRIETARY vote tabulation in the hands of major Bush donors is responsible for thousands and thousands of Iraqi and American deaths, the destruction of our economy and our government, and possibly the end of our planet (due to our failure to address the causes of global warming).

Your point--that foreign governments could also hack these very insecure, unreliable, and very hackable electronic voting systems--might sway the remaining uninformed, fried-brained koolaid drinkers who still think that Bush is a conservative and a Christian, and who tremble in fear at those axes of evil terrsts who are just itchin to destroy our way of life. THEY might determine our elections! Lord preserve us!

Truth is, it's the Bush Cartel that is destroying our way of life--faster than anybody else could. It wouldn't matter much if "foreigners" picked our leaders. They COULDN'T PICK ANYBODY MORE DESTRUCTIVE!

But, as I said, there are still some people who don't get it, and so let them worry about who "foreigners" might elect in this country--if it will help us get rid of these goddamned election theft machines.

[passy]

32. You really get the point.

We all want to get rid of these machines. My argument is the most efficient I believe that we can use.
Lets makes even more scary; what if a foreign government had helped one of their spies get elected? What if someone really evil could buy themselves an election from Diebold or ES&S?
We can even use this argument without mentioning the last election and *'s win.
We only need to say that if these machines aren't safe and the government knows it, then they can't gamble away our democracy by blindingly trusting the companies that make them, we deserve better than that. Like they should have done something about those warnings before 9/11 and Katrina.
All we need to do now is bring it to their attention in public, if anyone has guts enough to ask Scottie Mac about it, it would be the end of these machines. There is no way Diebold and the others could prove to the American people that their machines are safe before 2006. The easiest way to carry out an election then would be to use paper.
We have won.
Let me hear you say it, we have won, these machines are good for the scrapheap.
The WH can't weasel themselves out of this one, they have lost the public's trust already.
How can they argue that these machines are safe when a government agency has already found that they aren't.
And if we are right and there is something in the source code that shouldn't be there, then we would get to see it, because we could question why the government simply chooses to trust Diebold without evidence that their machines are safe.
This reply is getting to be a bit long, but I'm really feeling enthusiastic about the possibilities.

[freedomfries]

36. a national security issue

You nailed it passy! Thanks for connecting the dots.
The Department of Homeland Security did not act on the warning about tabulator system vulnerability issued by US-CERT, one of its sub-agencies, leaving open the possibility of election manipulation, not only by malicious insiders, but by outside terrorist organizations or foreign governments. The warning ignored by DHS is the crux of the issue.

[passy]

37. Welcome to DU!

U got it. Spread the word.

[passy]

33. Kick

[freedomfries]

39. Kicking your post

Thanks passy! Now let's think about the how toooos

[passy]

40. kick

[diva77]

41. I fear that framing this as a homeland security issue will lead to more

government control at the polls and at the central tabulators -- perhaps pollworkers will be outsourced to private corporations that claim to provide "security" from elections being stolen, etc. I'd rather see a feasible plan for hand counted paper ballots that nobody can say "no" to!!

[passy]

42. Who is saying no to paper?

Have we been asked to make a well informed decision concerning which method we would prefer, I think not.
If these machines can't be 100% safe, then paper is pretty much the only solution left. It might take longer but it has been used a lot longer and is a lot easier to control than machines than we cannot check.
Your fears are wrong just look at the last election, those tabulators where untouchable anyway by those who wanted to check them out.
As for poll workers, they are irrelevant when fraud is carried out by remotely changing election results.