Original Sin

[Sam1]

I found this definition, or if you will, explanation of the Christian doctrine of original sin in the book "The Irony of American History" by Reinhold Niebuhr. It was published in 1952.

He states that the Christian doctrine of original sin "asserts the obvious fact that all men are persistently inclined to regard themselves more highly and are more assiduously inclined with their own interests than any 'objective' view of their importance would warrant."

Any comments, either in agreement or disagreement?

[Tikki]

1. OS rhetoric is the gateway drug to a permanent illusionary state.....n/t

[Sam1]

2. Please explain - This is more then just rhetoric

[Tikki]

3. How can a little kid fight back at this OS.....

during the time he/she is forming their ethic values.
If you grow to dis this persuasion you are automatically assumed
to be heading down a different road.
If you accept any definition of it...you are done for life.


Tikki

[Zen Democrat]

4. Pretty much true of men .... not so much with women generally. n/t

[Sam1]

7. It merely manifests itself differently in women. The rough

translation for women is "I devoted myself to you - you owe me"

[damntexdem]

5. Well, I think of the Eden story as a coming-of-age tale.

The "sin" of eating of fruit of knowledge of good and evil is that of growing up. Then it's time to leave home, kids, and go make it on your own. So, yes, many may make more of themselves than others think facts warrant, but the real issue is making one's own decisions. And the issue of making decisions is that they can be for good or ill. Being able to choose guarantees that some choices will be 'bad,' hurtful to others, damaging to society, and/or harmful to the environment. So in my book, 'original sin' is basically the ability of an adult to make one's own choices.

[Sam1]

8. The quote addresses self judgement

"So, yes, many may make more of themselves than others think facts warrant, but the real issue is making one's own decisions."

It is not that others think that one makes more of onesself then the facts warrant but that onesself will make that error and feel himself to be more then the facts warrant. Allen Greenspan is a great example. A lot of people warned him of the comming colapse and he dismissed them. It was not the judgment of others but his own judgement that was faulty. He made more of himself then the facts warranted and others payed the price.

[snagglepuss]

6. "Niebuhr refashioned the classical doctrine of original sin, removing the literal elements.

I believe the quote short shrifts his thinking about original sin which is for him a lack of trust in God.


"'Original sin', the sin that precedes, undergirds, and compels our sins on the surface of life, is thus for Niebuhr a lack of trust in God, ...

This lack of trust, therefore, sets everything off-kilter. It spurs our anxious contingency to secure itself; in effect it causes us to make ourselves the center of our world; and thus it drives us to be unjust to others. This is, says Niebuhr, the 'unbelief' that leads to pride. Pride in this case is pride in relation to God, the claim to be self-sufficient and in no need of the divine...


...The unbelief and rebellion that in the tradition were associated with Adam's historical act of defiance are now moved forward to characterize the inner and fundamental relation of each person to God. For Niebuhr we are each as close to original sin as were Adam and Eve; they are symbols of what we do."



Langdon Gilkey (2001). On Niebuhr: A Theological Study. Chicago: University Of Chicago Press.

[Taverner]

9. "Father, bless me for I have sinned, I – I did an original sin – I – I poked a badger with a spoon.”

“I’ve never heard of that one before! Five Hail Mary’s and two Hello, Dolly’s.”

[iris27]

10. Hahahaha....love

Eddie Izzard!

[darkstar3]

11. LOL, I love Eddie. n/t

[OttavaKarhu]

17. "Vicar, I have done many bad things"

"Well, so have I."

"What should I do?"

"Drink five Bloody Marys and you won't remember."

[Silent3]

12. How can an inclination be a "sin"?

Not being a believer, this topic is little more than an intellectual game for me, but if we're looking for consistency, wouldn't a more consistent notion of sin involve a person giving into and acting upon "bad" desires and inclinations, not merely having those desires and inclinations?

After all, if you simply don't ever have even the slightest inclination to do anything a particular religion would deem morally wrong, virtue would be an effortless thing, hardly worthy of special recognition or reward. You'd be free from sin the same way a rock is free from sin.

[iris27]

13. I suppose the assumption is then that Adam and Eve were more

selfless before the Fall?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

14. Taking fire and brimstone shit seriously can drive one to suicidal ideation.

i stopped going to church because of original sin and telling me I was horrible and worthless.

It's abusive and sick and does no one any good. People should be developing a conscience from the inside, and healthy self-esteem instead of having a preacher (who is probably a greedy bastard with a couple of girlfriends or boyfriends on the side) telling them they are no damn good.

Read John Bradshaw's "Healing the Shame that Binds You". He is a former Jesuit priest turned psychoanalyst. He took the works of Alice Miller and expanded and popularized them.

[DeSwiss]

15. The entire concept of sin.....

...original or otherwise, is pure BULLSHIT, as are the religion(s) that advance the notion.

- Thank you. And have a nice day.....

"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God,
who creates faulty humans and then blames them for his own mistakes." ~ Gene Roddenberry

"He didn't have to die for our sins, because he didn't have to make us sinful in the first place." ~ Misty Martin

[Manifestor_of_Light]

16. I don't use the word "sin". I use "Wrong".

[MorningGlow]

18. Some of the reasons I left the Church

1) Being forced to say every Sunday, "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you..."

2) Being forced every Sunday to bow my head.

3) Having to buy into the belief that all humans are born with "original sin" before they've even done anything "sinful", and that "original sin" must be cleansed...by the Church.

No, I don't agree with Niebuhr's assessment, because I feel that humans should think MORE of themselves than the Church wants. Believing that humans are fundamentally sinful beings who must bow their heads in prayer instead of lifting them up, and must say "I'm not worthy" instead of saying "I am a glorious creation", is a form of abuse and control, much the same way that an abusive husband keeps control of his wife by tearing down her self-esteem at every opportunity.