Catholic bashing on DU: it does occur, and here's how it goes:

[hedgehog]

1. The hierarchy does or says something especially egregious: women aren't suitable to be priests, some rapist was moved from parish to parish, etc.

2. DU members who identify as Catholic are castigated and charged in supporting the hierarchy because they continue to identify as Catholic.

3. When the Catholic DU members object that they are more upset about the hierarchy than non-members,and that we are trying to make changes in the institutional structure we are told that we can't be Catholics unless we support every act of the hierarchy and believe every line of the Catechism. Bonus points for making excuses for events that happened over 500 years ago.

4. In other words, the two groups who support the role of the hierarchy in the Catholic Church are the members of the hierarchy and those who want to condemn the Church.

It's as if Solzhenitsyn was simultaneously condemned for being a Russian and accused of not being a real Russian because he didn't support Stalin. Of course, the existence of Stalin proves all Russians are evil.

The oddest part of all this is that the more a Catholic does follow Step 3, the more likely that person is to denounce those of us who don't. In other words, those who profess to love the Church the most because
****THEY**** are orthodox and follow all the rules issued by the Vatican (the ones least likely to demand change) are pretty much in agreement with those who condemn the Church when it comes to us reformers!

[Upton]

1. I was baptized Catholic

went on to make my Communion and Confirmation.......and I think the Catholic Church is one of the sickest institutions on the face of the earth..

If some consider that Catholic bashing...so be it.

[malaise]

6. +1,000 n/t

[Lost4words]

34. I dont see them doing much for people frankly,

its a male dominated hierarchical corporation, its number one objective is to survive, acquire wealth and power for itself.

the Vatican owned a pharmaceutical company that produced birth control pills while at the same time saying not to use contraception. At one time they owned the Washington DC Watergate Hotel! Now there is a Pope that actually wore the swastika!

UN F*ING REAL!

reformed, thinking for myself, former C

[bridgit]

38. But you're referring to the "institutions" and not whatever mysteries may be contained...

Within the stations or the cross itself, right? Did you stop believing in the "institutions', or did you stop believing in the cross? Cause I was baptized by the Bishop of California, do not go to church; though believe that truths & universal mysteries are able to transcend the mere institutions of man

[Arctic Dave]

78. It is like the old joke.

"Upton, you were raised in a catholic hoesehold, why aren't you catholic"?

"Uh, because I grew up in a catholic household".

[Lost-in-FL]

122. +!00000, nt

[TankLV]

131. Same here - on all points...

Aparently, telling the TRUTH is "bashing"...

So.

Be.

It.

[Saturday]

2. Everyone and everything gets bashed on DU

and that includes Catholics. The nature of the beast.

[Darth_Kitten]

8. No, some more than others.

There is definite Catholic bashing.

[StarlightGold]

280. It's richly deserved

After molestation/rape/cover-up stories, taking over hospitals and then refusing a lot of women's medical care, excommunicating a 9 year old and her mother for daring to put the child's well being first....the rcc will be bached up one side and down the other. If they weren't guilty, they wouldn't be trying so hard to look innocent.

[pnwmom]

10. You've missed the point. It's the way that DUers fail to distinguish

between progressive Catholics and those who support the conservative hierarchy; and, ironically, the way many non-Catholic DUers also support the conservative hierarchy (inasmuch as they view those people as comprising the "real" Catholic Church.)

[hedgehog]

25. Bingo!

BTW - did you know that's Latin for Whoopee!

[pnwmom]

36. . . .

:hi:

[hedgehog]

130. There are those scholars who maintain it actually derives from the ancient Greek phrase for

"Suck it, losers!"

[MineralMan]

39. Every Catholic who puts money in the offering plate or in

an envelope is supporting the hierarchy of the RCC. Every one. You may disagree with some of the actions of that hierarchy, but when you donate, you provide actual material support for its activities. There is no getting around that dilemma.

It is not the same as paying taxes. Not in any way. There is no material penalty for withholding contributions to a church. You may stop at any time, and even walk away from that institution without penalty.

It is not sufficient to complain about nefarious activities by the hierarchy of the church if you are still donating to that hierarchy. Your complaints are simply ignored.

[pnwmom]

61. There is only one collection a year for the hierarchy,

and plenty of Catholics don't contribute to it.

The regular weekly collections support the local Church and its work in its community.

[MineralMan]

71. All of it? Really? None goes to the diocese? Are you sure?

Does the diocese send money to Rome?

You may be correct, but I'm betting that a portion of the weekly collections moves up the revenue stream and is not just used in the parish.

[pnwmom]

77. I've seen the numbers at our Church and it stays local.

Sometimes there are second collections that may go for various purposes, but it is always announced what the second collections are for.

[laughingliberal]

88. That's how I remember it. It's been many years since I was a practicing Catholic

but I remember one collection a year for the 'church' and recall the rest was to support the work of the local parish.

[Walk away]

82. Are you sure about that?

Don't they have collections for their missionary work in South America and Africa? I know they do because my neighbor is so proud of it. You know, the places where the pope tells everyone that condoms cause AIDS so don't wear them. We want to keep having those new catholic babies. Especially ones that are too poor or uneducated to defend themselves from their priests.

[hedgehog]

114. The Pope may say all he wants to, but it's the sisters who are on the ground!

:evilgrin:

[patrick t. cakes]

101. isnt it the local churches that the pedophile priests come from?

why support that?

[piratefish08]

120. $80-100 million a year according to Catholic News.......

[The Straight Story]

106. Same with taxes and war (nt)

[Iggo]

127. Das ist ein Bingo!

I support the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan with my tax dollars. No getting around it.

[DeSwiss]

273. YES, YES, YES!!!! n/t

[Name removed]

142. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[skepticscott]

186. If you support the Catholic Church in any way

and that includes giving any money to them or being on the membership roles, then you support the "conservative hierarchy" and everything they do, whether you admit it to yourself or anyone else or not. The OP's analogy to Solzhenitsyn is completely bogus, since he was born a Russian and has no choice about being one. Catholics are not born so, and beyond a certain age (before which they may be excused by indoctrination) they bear full moral responsibility for continuing their support of a corrupt and evil organization.

As far as the baloney about sticking around to change the church "from within", that is simply the height of denial and naivete. All of these cutesy little Catholic lay organizations intended to promote "change" and "reform" are nothing but white noise to the church hierarchy, which answers to absolutely nobody.

[Name removed]

239. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[skepticscott]

254. In the first place

there is no "Muslim hierarchy", no closeted, organized group of high level Muslim clerics who exercise control over the "Muslim church" (which doesn't exist in any way like the RCC), so your entire argument pretty much goes down the toilet, doesn't it? But to the extent that Islam promotes and encourages human rights abuses, I have leveled criticism at that religion as well. Have you? Nor have I withheld criticism of the American government for the things you describe, so I'm not sure what your problem is there. Do you even get the fact that participation in, and support of the Catholic Church is entirely voluntary and a completely free choice? That Catholics are not born Catholics, that they can change religions as they choose, and are not faced with a choice between contributing to the RCC and going to prison? So spare me your righteous indignation on all of that. And when corrupt bishops, cardinals and popes can be voted out of office by regular elections of the laity, then talk to me about your last idiotic analogy.

And please, please tell me that you're not STILL resorting to the "it's just a few bad apples in the Catholic Church" argument. I would have expected recent revelations to put that beyond the pale for all but the most lunatic of Catholic apologists. The "everyone else is doing bad stuff too" argument, to try to deflect criticism from the Church's long-term and systematic rape and abuse of children, is even more despicable.

[Enthusiast]

155. Zactly nt

[omega minimo]

179. There's a historic pecking order

The new policies encourage more basic civility, rather than some groups run amok on others.

[saltpoint]

3. It's the hierarchy itself that's kind of the main problem, IMO.

The lay Catholic who works the night shift in an assisted living facility trying to help others and who has chosen that kind of service for her or his career seems to me to be a hell of a lot closer to the tenets of Jesus' ministry than the Vatican, which believes women are unfit to serve as officers of the Church.

I've seen many moments of praise for that anonymous lay AFL worker and most of the frustration and anger directed at the all-male club at the Vatican for the prohibition against ordaining women.

It seems both logical and fair to defend Bill Moyers, for example, who is a Baptist minister, but at the same time to blast Franklin Graham, yet another Protestant, for Graham's xenophobia. Graham stirs anger with fear and discriminatory harsh judgment. Moyers has done the homework and argues for inclusion and welcome.

The current Pope is significantly medieval in his worldview. I wish he were not, but he is. There are a lot of nuns who likely are a lot more modern than Benedict, but sadly, we do not hear their voices, only his. Again, I think the hierarchy itself is the problem.

[hedgehog]

15. Thank you . I think every human institution has its share of

good and bad people - even the Republicans had Lincoln!

In our case our critics have trapped us in a Catch-22:
1. If we support the hierarchy, we're evil.
2. If we don't support the hierarchy, we're not Catholics!

Criticize specific people or actions all you want ( I do it all the time!), but please drop the broad brush!

[saltpoint]

30. Hi, hedgehog. I was so fortunate to have an aunt who was a county chair

of her local Democratic organization. She came into the local political scene around the time John Kennedy and Richard Nixon had their famous debate. I probably don't have to tell you that she thought Nixon was a thug and that Kennedy was the cat's pajamas.

A LOT of us cousins became Kennedy Democrats that year, even though we were still in grade school!

But John Kennedy the Democrat wasn't at all like George Wallace the Democrat though both were Democrats. Something happened to Democrats when you started driving south, we noticed. There was a kind of a But...but...but effect.

Your point on institutions harboring a full range of folks makes good sense to me. There's evidence of it just about everyplace, too. All of us could do better -- myself especially -- in trying to tackle the disparity between how institutions run and how we wish they would run.

As for the Church, this Pope will be 83 in a couple weeks. The College of Cardinals may be meeting sooner than anyone thinks. A reform Pope seems historically unlikely, but it would be a refreshing change. And an awful lot of good could come from a new Pope sanctioning the ordination of women.

[hedgehog]

44. How many people here know that John XXIII was elected as a caretaker Pope?

The voting was deadlocked between two other candidates. The theory was that John would just keep things ticking along a few years and then drop dead. Meanwhile, the infighting would continue at the Vatican to determine who the next Pope should be.

It didn't turn out quite as expected. It goes to show that the Holy Spirit can be quite a joker sometimes!

I see something big moving under the surface. Part of it is a result of ecumenism. Back in the 60's, I think most Catholics assumed that eventually all the Protestants would rejoin us under the Pope. What I see is that Western Christianity is coming together into two streams; one based on the 10 Commandments and one based on the Beatitudes.

What happens the day Catholics decide that they don't need the approval of the Pope to ordain women?

[saltpoint]

49. dupe

[saltpoint]

50. Good points. Benedict certainly does have a care-taker aspect, and

for reasons only he knows, he has not tried to be an influential and "present" as his predecessor. John had a gift with crowds. I don't think Benedict has that gift.

I wonder if this Pope's truer calling is in a library, alone, steadily and quietly reading, instead of as John's "Rotweiler," or the enforcer role he had been playing... well, I have no idea at all, but it's a thought. He seems more at home as a scholar of the history of the faith than as its visionary exponent.

Your observation about the split in Western Christianity "coming together into two streams; one based on the 10 Commandments and one based on the Beatitudes" is breath-taking. If you've ever been inclined to do a book, that would be one well worth doing and if you send me an order form I'll buy an advance copy.

[hedgehog]

116. My son has a theory about Benedict- He had been the shadow Pope

for years and was all set to go out and purge the Church of all heretics , i.e. anyone who didn't agree with his hardline views.

He forgot the power of the Holy Spirit.

Benedict woke up one morning, all set to go out and harass people, and the Spirit made him look down and it was

"oh, look, red shoes!"

[saltpoint]

213. I try awfully hard not to think about those red shoes.

The unstable part of my mind mixes those shoes up with Dorothy's shoes from the WIZARD OF OZ.

Mythic red shoe overload, definitely.

Your son's theory is interesting. It would be kind of instructive to hear what several mid-level officials in the Church have to say about the two generations or so of Benedict's work behind the scenes, but it occurs to me that they would be less likely to speak out now than ever.

The next Pope, whoever it is, is going to have an opportunity to make history.

[MineralMan]

55. One day, Catholics did very much the same thing.

They left the corruption of the Roman Catholic Church and started new churches. It was called the Reformation.

Today's Catholics have many alternatives to the RCC, all of which have married priests and ministers and many of which do not prohibit women's right to make reproductive churches. Many also ordain women and GLBT members.

Two examples, both of which follow the RCC liturgy to a large degree, are the ELCA Lutheran churches and the Episcopal Church. If you are seeking a return to an even older liturgy, just about any of the Orthodox denominations will make you feel like you stepped back many decades, although the language of the liturgy won't be Latin, but Greek, Church Slavonic (Russian Orthodox), or another language. These denominations also have married priests, but I don't believe any of them ordain women.

There are options to Roman Catholicism for Catholics who wish to register their discord with the RCC heierarchy, while retaining the essentials of their belief. Not all Protestant churches are like the "evangelical" churches feeding the right.

Part and parcel of Roman Catholicism are their doctrines of an unmarried priesthood made up only of men, along with the authoritarian central control of the entire denomination. If you object to those things, perhaps it's time to find another place to worship.

[pnwmom]

74. Perhaps. Or perhaps it's time to redouble efforts to push for change from within.

Why should progressives who love the good parts of the Church hand it over to those who are hurting it?

[Cleobulus]

84. How much influence do the laity have?

Practically none, as far as I can tell.

[pnwmom]

96. Over time, plenty. But not much in the short run, I agree. n/t

[TankLV]

135. Umm - there are six denominations of EASTER RITE CATHOLICS who have married priests

and are not at all "orthodox" - our UKRAINIAN CATHOLIC priests are all married and have children.

The "Roman" Rite is but one of six Rites of the Catholic Church - which is not at all the same thing as "Orthodox" which is NOT a part of the Catholic Church.

[pnwmom]

68. Our minds have been crossing the same paths today, I see.

Just an hour ago I was viewing a site about Catholic women priests and bishops. Very interesting -- and hopeful.

http://www.romancatholicwomenpriests.org/

[DesertRat]

108. A wise Irish priest once told our parish

in speaking about the church: "Remember, the crew may be human, but the ship is divine."

[saltpoint]

211. : )

Hi, DesertRat.

[Enthusiast]

238. Well said, saltpoint!

Catholics have been forced to judge for themselves for many years. Protestants would be well advised to do the same. It is only with this unquestioned strong authoritarianism that we run into trouble.

[saltpoint]

279. Hi, Enthusiast, and good morning.

Yes. The Vatican theoretically presides over a vast congregation on many continents but it often seems to be clueless on the day-to-day human things. People have to live their lives, and their lives demand a more modern menu for problem-solving than the Vatican seems to think it does.

I'm not a fan of the Protestant Revolution. If the Catholic Church of its time deserved much of the criticism it got, then the better idea would have been to replace it by suggesting something better. I'm not sure that happened at all. Martin Luther is not my idea of a Christian. And he had a very acute ruthless side to him, too.

[spanone]

4. the church deserves every ounce of bashing it receives..pedophilia is criminal

i was raised catholic but escaped in my teens

[ensho]

12. agree - sexually abusing children is a lasting horrible crime

why haven't catholics demanded that these priests be put out of the church and arrested?

tell me that.

[hedgehog]

19. When we do, we're told we're not "real" Catholics and/or

we're told we're part of the the problem because we haven't left the Church.

Oh, and by the way:

http://votf.org/goodfridayvigil2010

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/world/view/20100403-262115/Victims-protest-over-pedophile-priests-in-New-York

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2010/mar/10030109.html

[patrick t. cakes]

35. why reman in that type of organization?

[pnwmom]

47. For many Catholics, it's because of strong connections at the Parish level.

Individual parishes are doing wonderful work with their parishioners and in the broader community.

And for many, it's because of a continuing belief in the Sacraments.

Since the vast majority of our local priests have not been involved in the scandals, I feel sorry for them, especially. How sad it must be for them to have invested their whole lives in a Church whose hierarchy has behaved so poorly.

[patrick t. cakes]

66. my family is catholic and i understand the argument

buts it the individual parishes the directly support
the hierarchy. i cant feel sorry for people who willfully support
an organization that perpetuates child rape. if their world view is now shattered and
they cant go on id say grow up take a good look at the filth you've supported and
been deceived by your whole life then take more direct measures to change it.
actually, id walk away immediately and do vast amounts of soul searching.

[Toasterlad]

143. People Make All Kinds Of Excuses To Justify Their Membership In a Bigoted Organization.

"My chapter's DIFFERENT! We only hate gays on Wednesdays!"

[ironbark]

203. Ah,huh…and what is a ‘nation’ if not an ‘organization’?

Care to point me towards the nation that does not have a long history of bigotry and oppression?

All human systems, all organizations, are organic…they grow, they learn, they change.

Speak of “Excuses To Justify Their Membership In a Bigoted Organization” and every American is compelled to review their citizenship…and likewise every citizen of every nation.

"My country's DIFFERENT! We only wage unjust war on Thursday and Friday"

[Toasterlad]

210. So Very, Very Said.

Even assuming your extremely tired analogy is in any way apt, is this really what you people have been reduced to? "Other organizations do bad things, so it's okay for me to stay a member of a bigoted, misogynistic, pro-pedophile cult!"

See elsewhere in this thread where many rational people like myself have pointed out the difference between living in democracy, and being a willing member of a hate group.

[ironbark]

216. LOL…“you people”?….You mean we agnostics?

Your attempts at baiting insult- “bigoted, misogynistic, pro-pedophile cult!" wont work…I’m not a Catholic or a churchgoer and your descriptors expose only your own shallow bias.

I’m an agnostic who is quite capable of recognising the good work and the abuse that can arise from any organization….and quite capable of recognising blind, bigoted, extremist bullshit- describing being a Catholic as being “a willing member of a hate group.” qualifies.

[Toasterlad]

251. "You People" Refers To Any Catholic Apologist

Nice use of your time: defending a set of beliefs you don't even believe in, which are responsible for more divisiveness and misery than anything else on the planet.

But you just go right on defending the catholic church. I guess THEIR bigotry is okay. You've definitely got your priorities straight.

[ironbark]

201. Shhhhh! Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!

"Individual parishes are doing wonderful work with their parishioners and in the broader community."

Yes, even to an agnostic that is obvious. Anyone who has worked in Health, Welfare or Education sees the same thing- the churches- of ALL denomination- doing wonderfull work in the community.

Building community, sustaining community...taking care of the outsider and the fringe dweller.

"How sad it must be for them to have invested their whole lives in a Church whose hierarchy has behaved so poorly."

Indeed...but any outsider looking in on an organization is obliged to keep a ballanced perspective on the merits and faults of that organization.

Failing to do so and slipping into a one sided bias serves no one.

[sabrina 1]

70. Why remain an American citizen when the government

condones torture, which includes sexual abuse of men women and children, the bombing of women and children and the support both financially and militarily of brutal dictators like Karamov in Uzbekistan? If Americans were to renounce their citizenship they wouldn't have to pay taxes which supports all these crimes?

[patrick t. cakes]

86. because i was born here, thats not a choice.

and not having the financial means to expatriate (might happen eventually)
i have to remain and fight as best i can.
i do however have a choice whether i support an organization
that perpetuates child rape.

[sabrina 1]

100. You do have a choice, a difficult one to be sure, but lots of

people are born in countries they leave behind and become citizens of other countries. If you believe strongly enough in the morals you are imposing on others, then you would mind your OWN business and act on those morals rather than lecturing others on theirs. If you can't do that, then you are not in a position to lecture others.

Catholic bashing on DU has reached a level beyond belief. And I would say the same if it was directed, as it should be if we are to be fair, at all the other churches who have been found to have, percentage-wise, as much abuse among their heirarchies as the Catholic Church.

[patrick t. cakes]

110. you condemn "lecturing" with your own lecturing. lol

this is a message board where opinions are posted.

[sabrina 1]

181. Did you think I was against 'lecturing'?

Not at all, just against hypocritical lecturing. You know, the kind where someone is guilty of what they are lecturing other people about. Like yours eg!

A good lecture, such as mine, which is making an actual point without hypocrisy, is always interesting. :rofl:

[hedgehog]

121. I have to say, while any other organization (public schools,

other denominations) may have just as many pedophiles, the difference is that the organizations oust them instead of covering up for them. Our problem is that too much power has accumulated in the hands of too few. It's not what the bad men did that's hurting us, it's what the "good" men did!

[Toasterlad]

146. America Is a Democracy. The Catholic Church Is Not.

America has a system in place to allow people to voice their wishes in how the country should be run. The catholic church does not.

Even where that not the case, changing one's country of residence is an enormous financial and logistical burden. Renouncing catholicism is as cheap and easy as refusing to donate money to pedophiles and bigots.

[ironbark]

205. Democracy? Two wolves and a lamb discussing what’s for dinner.

The problem with your pov is that it fails to take the conceptual stance of outsider applied to Catholicism and apply it to Citizenship.

You recognise that an individual can have a great deal invested in a “country of residence” but seem unable to recognise that many church members have an even greater investment in their community of faith…and would often rather loose home and employment than loose community.

“Renouncing citizenship is as cheap and easy as refusing to donate money to warmongers, bigots and environmental vandals”

[Toasterlad]

212. If They Would Lose Their Homes Then Let Them Do It, And Decrease the Surplus Population.

Anyone who equates the logistical challenges of moving from one country to another with quitting a cult, let alone conclude that the latter could possibly be more difficult, is not a thinking person.

[ironbark]

217. Can’t distinguish between a mainstream church and a ‘cult’ “thinking person”?

[Toasterlad]

248. There IS No Measurable Difference Between Scientology And the Catholic Church

Both make money by preying on the gullible and hopeless. The only REAL difference is that catholics seem to have more of a predilection for young boys.

[sabrina 1]

242. Poor baby. Leaving a country that is engaged

in the slaughter and torture of innocents not to mention, the sexual abuse of children and adults, sodomy and other crimes against humanity, completely condoned by the current government who have stated that there will be no prosecutions of war criminals, is too difficult for you? YOU, who abhor the abuse of children, or so you say? Yet, you would not leave as you demand others do, the organization that is engaged on a far greater scale in crimes of massive proportions? Unless one million dead people is not massive enough for you, or maybe they are just brown people, so don't warrant the same outrage?

Contrary to your lame excuse for not doing the right thing by your own standards, leaving a country is quite simple. Millions do it every day. Many because they DO abhor the actions of their own governments. But YOU, for YOU it is too hard to put your body where your mouth is. You'd rather take the easy way out and continue to support what you claim to abhor.

Hypocrites ~ I always enjoy watching them try to weasel out of their hypocrisy. You're not even good at it, but it has been amusing watching you fall into your own trap ~ :rofl:

[darkstar3]

243. You've lost your mind if you think permanently leaving this country is easy.

I encourage you to apply for citizenship to the UK, or better yet NZ. It's like applying to graduate school, and even if you get in, there's the possibility of dual-citizenship and other complications.

You're so wrapped up in your false parallel, you can't even smell the shit you're shoveling...

[ironbark]

244. But you’re a persecuted minority, claim refugee status.

[Toasterlad]

249. Where Do You Live, Sweetheart?

[ironbark]

204. Exactly. n/t

[pnwmom]

31. Many Catholics are doing exactly that. There are whole organizations

who advocate that.

[pnwmom]

14. "The Church" does not EQUAL the hierarchy. What Hedgehog is pointing out

is that the Church comprises ALL the people, including progressive Catholics who belong to it. But many DUers smear all Catholics -- including those working the hardest for change -- with the same broad brush.

[Toasterlad]

147. The Heirarchy Could Not Exist Without You "Progressive" Catholics

Your support enables their crimes.

[darkstar3]

162. The pyramid would never succeed without the base. n/t

[Brickbat]

5. Stalin was Georgian.

And Solzhenitsyn was half Ukrainian. :)

I know where you're coming from, though. As a former Catholic, I understand the pain of seeing an institution you love shoot itself in the foot and not try to reform from the inside.

[piratefish08]

7. As long as the RCC is supported with your $$, the problems are perpetuated.

The Catholic Church will not change due to any pressure at the parishioner level until the MONEY STOPS. It is the only language they understand.

[pnwmom]

16. I suppose you've stopped paying your taxes until we pull out of Iraq?

Since your tax money is only perpetuating the problem.

[piratefish08]

46. The IRS makes sure my required taxes are paid. Church contributions are voluntary and one has

has and endless supply of churches willing to take it.

Not a valid comparison.

[pnwmom]

48. The overwhelming majority of funds that go into a local Church stay in the local

community. There is one collection per year that is taken for the work of the Vatican, named "Peter's Pence" -- and NO ONE has to contribute to it.

[piratefish08]

89. they don't have to, but they sure do! $80-100 million dollars each year from that one

collection.

I can't see they are doing any "local' good in Vatican City either. Have you ever been to the Vatican?

I have. I witnessed people quite literally starving to death not 25 feet from the entrance to St Peters Basilica. I spent 15 minutes inside staring at the obscene wealth and couldn't reconcile it with the folks starving outside - so I left.

No matter how you spin it - the Vatican places protection of the church above all else - abuse victims, gays, women.......

[sabrina 1]

72. Then renounce your citizenship. It's a very valid comparison.

[Cleobulus]

80. Oh for fuck's sake, no it is NOT. First off, its difficult to move out of your country...

and then renounce citizenship, hell, even after doing so, you may still be considered a Citizen by the State Department. And unlike the Catholic Church, which I'm most likely still have my name on their membership rolls, the U.S. government can still make you pay taxes.

Not to mention that at least American citizens have some type of say on the policies of their Government, whereas lay Catholics do not have any say on how the Church is run.

[piratefish08]

92. No. It's not. You're grasping at straws.

and unlike the RCC, change can and DOES come at a grassroots level in this country while still paying my taxes. And yes, I work very hard locally to try to implement the change.

Nope - not the same thing at all.

[sabrina 1]

102. You're making excuses for not doing what you are demanding

of others. Catholics work at grass roots levels also to effect changes. Sorry, but it's hypocrisy to order others to act on YOUR idea of morality, while making excuses as to why it's too difficult for you to do so.

Iow, in case you didn't understand. Your attacks on Catholics who remain in their church because of their faith but work within it to make necessary changes, is hypocrisy.

[piratefish08]

113. Your argument is tiring. There is another poster on this thread whose local parish

was excommunicated for trying to settle a pedophilia suit. That's how much the Vatican cares about your local efforts to right wrongs.

[hedgehog]

22. Guess what? The money is stopping. Look for the news of a major

financial crisis to hit the headlines soon.

[dalaigh lllama]

37. That's it exactly.

The ONLY way to change how the Vatican operates is to refrain from giving them power via money. They are not a democracy, and no plea from parishioners to mend their evil ways is going to change that.

Being a Catholic means supporting them via tithing, and there's no way you can say how your money will be spent -- feeding the poor in the slums or buying the Pope a new pair of $400 shoes. To use an analogy, it's like saying you've always been a good Republican and hate to see where the party's going but you'll try to change it from the inside; meanwhile, you'll send a doantion to the RNC and hope they spend it wisely.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

9. DU doesn't understand the diference between condemning an act and condemning the beliefs of others.

If a comment is made that even HINTS at "racism"...regardless of the intent of the original poster...DU is up in ARMS, FURIOUS, stamping its little DU feet with burning torches until the angry villagers drive out the offender.

The same holds true for any comment that even HINTS at "sexism"...once again, regardless of the intent of the original poster...holy shit, the pissing and moaning can be heard for miles.

And holy CRAP, if even a single grain of sand-sized "homophobic" thought creeps into DU, it's Armageddon, the Apocalypse, there is no greater sin on DU.

But bashing Jesus Christ on Easter and making "jokes" about his death and resurrection?

Big thumbs up from far too many people on DU.

This year, I'm just loading up the "Ignore" list. Easter jokes? Christ-bashing jokes? Fuck you, motherfucker, and good night.

It's bigotry, it's inexcusable, and yet it's not only excused on DU, it's high-fived. Fuck every ignorant, prejudiced, juvenile worthless son of a bitch who falls into this category, just FUCK YOU. You're no better than the worst at Free Republic.

Happy Easter everyone.

[WolverineDG]

18. My fave from this year

those calling Christians "selfish" because we are glad that Christ sacrificed Himself for us (essentially mocking Good Friday), because it's something we wouldn't do for ourselves or anyone else....who then turn around & thank military vets for sacrificing themselves to protect our liberties & our freedoms.....hypocrisy much?

dg

[muffin1]

57. Fuck you, motherfucker? Juvenile son of a bitch? Really?

Wow, you really ARE religious...

[jgraz]

104. Here's the difference: nobody is born Catholic.

And yes, it's a political discussion board. All we do is comment on our beliefs and the beliefs of others. The real question is: what is it about your particular beliefs that makes them above comment?

[Toasterlad]

150. You Know the Differences Between Race, Gender, Orientation, and Belief, Don't You?

Cause it doesn't sound like you do.

But I DID enjoy your quoting Jesus from, I think, Mark 4:19: "Fuck you, motherfucker!" One of my favorite biblical passages. Really captures the spirit of chrisitanity.

Speaking of which, beware of Zombie Jesus tomorrow!

[muffin1]

159. LMAO!

I almost spit out my lunch. I should never read you while eating...Mark 4:19...:rofl:

[darkstar3]

165. Wild Thing, I think I love you. :)

:hi:

[Sal316]

196. Zombie Jesus?

Only ignorant assholes make that crack.

[Toasterlad]

199. How Sad For Me.

I'll never get to be one of those non-ignorant, non-asshole people who believes that a guy died and magically came back to life two days later. And don't get me started on turning water into wine! I guess you have to be really smart to understand how that works.

I'll bet Jesus could make the Statue of Liberty disappear, too!

[sabrina 1]

224. A perfect example of 'where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise'l

Enjoy your ignorance. Are you one of those who are prejudiced against all Muslims also, like the rabid rightwingnuts? Do you mock their beliefs, or is your prejudice confined to Catholics? Why does it bother you what other people believe? Would you like the government to ban certain religions? And again, why are you, who is so righteous, condoning the murder and torture of people in Afghanistan?

If this is the attitude of the Democratic Party, I think it's time for all Catholics to quit that party. Without their Catholic base, they would never win another election.

Btw, Ted Kennedy was a believer in that 'guy who died and came back from the dead'. As were his two brothers. There was a lot of prejudice against Catholics when Kennedy ran for president also. It's an ugly thing, prejudice. Kennedy managed to overcome it enough to make it to the WH, but not enough to eliminate the hate in the hearts of the haters. And it is still here, in all its glory on a Democratic site.

[darkstar3]

227. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

There have been many groups in the past on the left who believed that they were so central to Democratic victory that they could bully the party into doing what they wanted by threatening to leave. Ask the gays, the blacks, and various other minority groups how that has worked out.

If you want to cut off your nose to spite your face, go right-the-fuck ahead. I'm so sure the pubbies will treat you better...:eyes:

[sabrina 1]

232. Oh, so you're not just prejudices against Catholics?

It's gays, the blacks and other minority groups also?

I'm not going anywhere, sorry to disappoint you. I'll be working to eradicate your kind of prejudice from the party.

I read about this particular kind of hatred when reading about the Kennedys and their struggle to overcome it. Like them, I won't be pushed out of anywhere by haters, it only makes me more determined to work against it. Of course not everyone feels that way and would not want to associate with a party that condones it.

I have to thank you for giving me a real life look at what they had to deal with back then. Reading about it is disturbing, but it's not quite the same as seeing it in real life, today, 50 years later.

I'll be sending some of the comments from this thread to my email list as people need to see that hate doesn't just exist on the right. For them it's Muslims, for democrats it's Catholics? I didn't know that until now.

And blacks and gays and other minorities stayed in the Democratic Party because they had nowhere else to go?

Disgusting beyond belief ~ I feel sorry for you.

[darkstar3]

235. Reading is fundamental.

You KNOW I didn't say that I was prejudiced against gays, blacks, or others. Go back and read it again. And if it still doesn't make sense, have one of your smarter friends explain it to you.

[Toasterlad]

250. Yes, I Mock All Religious Beliefs

Muslims are even worse in their treatment of women and gays than catholics, hard as that is to believe. And it "bothers" me, because delusional people like you use your irrational belief in invisible pixies to deny me equality.

I would be DELIGHTED if the catholics left the Democratic party. Without their irrationality and hypocrisy, the Democrats might even manage to get something progressive done. Please, feel free to form your own party. You already have your platform: no abortions, and no gay equality! Hmmm, sounds familiar.... Hey, you're in luck! You don't have to go through the trouble of forming your own party; there's already another party out there that has the same beliefs you catholics do!

I do feel bad for what the Kennedys had to go through. It must suck to not be able to marry your lover, and have to lie about who you are in order to serve your country, or to be prevented from being at your loved one's side as they die.

And where is it you live again, sweetheart?

[darkstar3]

208. Ignorance could be defined

as the belief that your crucified "Lord and Savior" would consistently like to be reminded of the instrument of his torture and death. Nice avatar, Sal...

[ChadwickHenryWard]

256. Holy shit.

That was fucking awesome.

[Amaya]

266. Jesus loves you!

:rofl:

[darkstar3]

164. I'm sure Christ would just LOVE the phrase "fuck you, motherfucker".

Are you pissed because you want to post something racist, sexist, or homophobic and know you would get your ass beat, or are you pissed because patriarchal conservatism is unwelcome on a progressive board?

And BTW, following your diatribe with "Happy Easter everyone" may be one of the funniest displays of irony I've seen this week. Bonus points also for displaying bigotry while accusing others of it. You're a regular Poe.

[WolverineDG]

11. Haven't you gotten the memo?

You can *ALWAYS* bash Catholics & other Christians at any time, for any reason. You can mock their holidays & beliefs, being as offensive as you want to be. If you're an atheist, you are exempt from being TS'd for such behavior, & in fact, you are encouraged to be as offensive to Christians as you possibly can. Also, you are exempt from posting in the correct forum if you are bashing Christians.

You canNOT however, do the same to any other religion, especially Paganism & Atheism. Expect an automatic granite cookie for doing this.

dg

[Moochy]

33. The Druids in the Hot Tub!!!!!111

I think that anyone bashing both Paganism and Atheism usually get tomb-stoned for their other cluster of regressive and antithetical beliefs. But maybe you are right that there is a coven of druids in the hot tub.

That would explain why my series of posts on the genius of Julius Ceasar's invasion of Britain were deleted. :mad:

[muffin1]

112. When your church systematically discriminates

against women and gay people, and molests CHILDREN while doing so, what do you expect from progressives? To roll over and respect it? Sorry. When the church stops such deplorable behavior, maybe it will not be not be viewed with such contempt.

[WolverineDG]

140. So it's okay to mock holidays & beliefs then

and be as offensive as you possibly can because you don't like what the hierarchy does? Because I've seen some really offensive posts on DU, one mocking Good Friday & another mocking the Resurrection, not to mention all the posts where atheists call Christian DUers "stupid." Funny how THOSE posts don't get deleted, but ones where atheists are called on their bull shit are.

dg

[Toasterlad]

152. Absolutely. And Hey, If You Want To Mock Me For Enjoying Blue Mountain State, Feel Free.

That's a choice that I make, that is entirely open to criticism and/or ridicule. Just like someone's belief in invisible flying men.

But I'd rather watch a stupid show where Alan Ritchson is regularly shirtless than spend an hour each week in a building surrounded by bigots and possible pedophiles.

[WolverineDG]

170. So it's okay on DU to call other DUers "stupid" if they're Christian

but not if they believe anything else?

wow.

[Toasterlad]

173. I Just Said You Could Call Me Stupid For Liking Blue Mountain State.

However, I don't remember seeing a bunch of threads calling catholics stupid, despite their willingness to overlook their church's bigotry, misogyny and pedophilia in order to maintain their belief in an invisible sky daddy and his zombie son/other self.

[WolverineDG]

182. yet you just wrote one

:eyes:

dg

[Toasterlad]

192. Technically, It's a Post, And Technically, I Didn't Call Anybody Stupid

Can I help it if I find the notion of adults who still believe in fairy tales hilarious? I mean, I'm only human. Unlike Jesus, apparently!

[merh]

13. I don't understand.

If you agree that the Catholic Church has problems and the criticism is warranted, what is the purpose of the OP?

Relative to #4, the tenets of the Mother Church are quite clear, a "good" Catholic, a Catholic properly practicing the faith, supports the role of the hierarchy in the Catholic Church and the Pope is infallible, you adhere to his teachings just as if they came straight from Jesus. Those who point that out to you are not supporting the role, they are acknowledging the tenets and teachings of the church.

[pnwmom]

26. You're right, you don't understand.

Just because the "Mother Church" makes certain claims about being a "good Catholic" doesn't mean that millions of progressive Catholics have to accept all those claims. We take seriously the importance of individual conscience.

Progressive Catholics don't accept the judgment of non-Catholic progressives -- or conservative Catholics -- that they aren't Catholic enough.

[merh]

40. If you think you are Catholic enough then that is all that is needed.

The opinions of others, like the tenets of the Mother Church, shouldn't affect you in any way.

That you allow it to bother you and make you angry to the degree that you become defensive suggests that the problem is not what others think but how you pay attention to what others think.

Be comfortable in your faith, if you are, you don't have to explain it.

There is the religion, the Catholic Church, and then there is your faith. If you are comfortable in your faith then be comfortable and to hell with those who do not understand the difference.

[hedgehog]

111. I Agree with what you say. I'm not so sure whether I am angry and defensive

or whether I feel compelled to try and educate people. A lot of Catholics are caught between what they've been taught and what they know in their hearts to be the truth. It is incredibly liberating to people to find out that they are not alone.

[sabrina 1]

90. Wrong, if you're a good Catholic you are taught that

hierarchy or not, priests and the Pope are merely humans and are as capable of committing sin as any other human. That is NOT supported nor are Catholics required to support it. On matters of faith only, the Pope is considered to be infallible, NOT on matters of his own human behavior.

[merh]

158. You are mistaken.

You may want to go do some research on "Papal Primacy".

Yes, Catholics are taught that everyone, including priests, nuns and the pope, are human and all humans are sinners.

However,

Papal infallibility means that the pope is protected from error when he "proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals" (CCC 891). This does not mean that he is impeccable (incapable of sin) or inerrant (incapable of error).

"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 16:18-19).

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/papal%20authority

[sabrina 1]

176. I am not mistaken and you have proved it yourself with your

quote. 'when he proclaims .... an act a doctrine pertaining to faith and morals'. That doesn't get HIM off the hook for his own morals. If he proclaims that it is wrong to murder someone, yet does it himself, he is as responsible as every other human being, more so in fact because of his position. Nor was he wrong about murder. Matters of faith and doctrine are usually based on Christ's teachings. So, if something does not come directly from those teachings, no one is obliged to consider the pope to be right about that. So, I can be a good Catholic and still disagree with the pope when he is wrong. There have been plenty of bad popes. And plenty of bad pastors, rabbis and preachers, presidents, kings and other persons in positions of authority. That didn't make every citizen or believer bad.

When people judge milliions of others based on the actions of a relative few, that is ignorance and prejudice.

The bashing of millions of Catholics because of bad priests here is the same thing as the bashing of Muslims on Free Republic because of a relative few. There are one billion Muslims in the world, most are decent people who are no happier about their bad elements than anyone else. There are plenty of GOOD priests who are being tarred with the same brush as those who are not. That is ignorance, unjust and prejudicial.

[uppityperson]

17. Damned if you don't, damned if you do.

I agree and ibtl

[DesertRat]

123. Don't expect the thread to be locked

Catholic bashing is not discouraged here. :(

[jgraz]

20. If you support the Church, you're supporting a criminal organization that preys on children.

And, unlike Russians under Stalin, you can leave anytime you want.

[pnwmom]

28. If you pay taxes, you're supporting the war in Iraq among other atrocities.

And you can leave anytime you want.

Or you can stay and try to make things better. Which are you choosing?

[Cleobulus]

42. That's a fucking stupid response...

You are not obligated, by LAW to tithe to the church.

[uppityperson]

45. "support" does not always mean financial. eom

[Cleobulus]

53. True, I guess I'm anti-Catholic in the same way I was anti-American when Bush was in office. n/t

[sabrina 1]

223. When Bush was in office? Have people stopped dying

in Afghanistan and Iraq lately? You do support the policies of this administration, do you not? What do you think the mothers in Afghanistan whose children were blown apart by drones ordered by a Democratic president think of Americans who condone those murders? Or is it not murder when a Democrat does it? I doubt it makes much difference which American political party killed their children, all they know is, it is supported by American people for political reasons.

Until you are willing to quit supporting the abuse and torture and killing of those people, you have zero grounds to criticize anyone else.

[darkstar3]

225. You really don't understand the concept of a false parallel, do you? n/t

[sabrina 1]

226. You really don't understand hypocrisy, do you?

I see you are not denying your complicity in those crimes though. I mean, that's the logic isn't it? Anyone who continues to be a member of an organization that destroys lives, is complicit in the crimes. Sorry you can't be selective about that. Either you follow your own advice and avoid such institutionas, political parties, churches or whoever is responsible, or you too, by your own standards, are guilty.

Too bad that you can't just point fingers at others, without having them point right back at yourself. That is why wise people refrain from demanding of others what they are not willing to do themselves.

[darkstar3]

228. The complexities of two-party American politics and wars taking place during transition

in no way translate to this situation. You're comparing apples to aircraft carriers, and what's worse is that you know it and are ignoring it because you're grasping at straws to defend your allegiance to your church.

The usage of a false parallel will never, ever help your case.

[sabrina 1]

236. Was Ted Kennedy ignoring crimes because of his allegiance

to his church?

My faith is not your business btw. Thanks for feeling free to bash people because of their religion though. I wasn't a Muslim either when I defended them against the vile, hateful attacks of rightwingnuts after 9/11 who also feel they are free to bash people because of their faith.

Same thing, a relatively small number of Muslims are criminals, and the rightwingnuts get to unleash all their bottle-up hatred and prejudices tarring millions of decent people with the same brush.

A relatively small number of Catholics are criminals and the leftwingnuts get to unleash all THEIR bottled-up prejudices and hatred, tarring millions of decent people with the same brush.

I despise bigots and haters of any kind and will defend their targets no matter whether they are Muslims or Catholics, Athiests, Jews or Hindus, Gays, Blacks or anyone else.

But there is no false parallel. If someone demands of others something they excuse in their own behavior, they are a hypocrite. You are waffling, making excuses that you are not willing to take from others, whether you realize it or not. You don't stand around waiting for two years to see if someone is going to stop torturing people before condemning it, sorry.

The way to avoid hypocrisy is to be careful that you do not do what rightwingnuts do. And that is what you are doing. I received many death threats for defending Muslims from this same kind of irrational hatred, right after 9/11. It's very familiar to me.

Prejudice is ugly, no matter whether it is from the left or the right. And now I've seen both, and there isn't much difference.

[darkstar3]

237. Since you're simply repeating yourself,

see #235, and enjoy your loop.

[pnwmom]

56. And that's a nasty, rude response.

There is only one collection per year in any Catholic Church whose funds go to the Vatican -- and many Catholics don't contribute. The overwhelming majority of donations stay right in the local Church and its community.

[Bluebear]

59. And Amway only asks for the proceeds of one sale a year to go to Grand Rapids.

;)

[Cleobulus]

62. I'm rude when people make dumbass comparisons...

And its not JUST the Vatican that is the problem, the Archdiocese can also be a problem, and even local Churches as well.

[pnwmom]

83. My Archdiocese was one of the earliest to recognize the problem and to act to fix it.

And there haven't been any cases come to light in my particular parish.

[Cleobulus]

85. My Archdiocese tried to sell off one of the local historical churches to pay off pedophile...

lawsuits.

[pnwmom]

95. Unfortunately, there aren't any good options for paying off the lawsuits.

But it is clearly the Church's obligation to pay them.

[Cleobulus]

97. The Parish in question was excommunicated, and now operates on its own...

as an Independent Catholic Parish.

[pnwmom]

99. How did they get control of the building? That's interesting. n/t

[Cleobulus]

105. For a hundred years, they were organized to have board of directors...

elected from the local parish to control their assets, for about 30 years, the Archdiocese has tried to wrest control of their assets from them. Part of the reason was to pay settlements from pedophile lawsuits. Finally, in 2005, after accepting a priest(note: an open and affirming priest) in formal schism with the Church, and refusing to turn over assets to the Church, the Archdiocese excommunicated the board of directors, and then attempted to suppress the parish. The Parish broke with Archdiocese and now operates without the consent or control of either the Archdiocese or the Catholic Church.

[piratefish08]

107. That speaks VOLUMES. A local parish made and honest attempt to right a wrong

and they were EXCOMMUNICATED for it. just wow.

Kinda like they did to my mother for divorcing the man that used to beat the shit out of us on a daily basis. The church thought we should have stayed in that situation.

Job 1 - protect the church above all else.

[uppityperson]

98. NOLA?

[Cleobulus]

115. St. Louis.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/585633/the_battle_for_st_stanislaus_kostka.html?cat=8

[Cleobulus]

136. My Archdiocese also sent 10,000 dollars to support homophobia in Maine. n/t

[sabrina 1]

109. And it wasn't just the president who condoned torture

and rape and abuse of children and the murder of over one million people. I remember attempts to get people to withhold their taxes during that period, but there was little support for that.

Right now I see few criticisms of the current president for his escalation of the killing in Afghanistan from many of the same people who are demanding of Catholics that they do, what they themselves won't do. In fact they will not even CRITIZE this president.

Hypocrisy, it's as disgusting when it comes from democrats as it is when it comes from republicans.

[jgraz]

43. If I don't pay taxes, I go to jail

What happens if you stop giving money to the Catholics?

[Bluebear]

52. You have more discretionary money in your pocket to give to wonderful causes

that don't control women's bodies or urge people not to give funerals to gay people or shuffle pedophiles around from job to job to avoid their fate?

[muffin1]

63. Heh-heh.

:yourock:

[jgraz]

73. All hail the almighty Bluebear

:rofl:

[MineralMan]

58. I think you go to Hell or something, but only after you're alread

dead.

[jgraz]

75. I plan on converting 5 seconds before I die.

No muss, no fuss.

[darkstar3]

166. Are you saying you don't pay your taxes?

I'm sure the IRS would just love to hear about this. As a person who does pay taxes because I don't want to be fined into oblivion and put in jail for several years, I'd also love to tell them about it.

So tell me, Miss Equivocation, do you pay your taxes? I thought so...

[patrick t. cakes]

21. belief in a religion is a choice

being born russian is not.
most russians under stalin were basically prisoners in their own nation,
while most catholics are either ignorant or they willfully turn a blind eye to
the history of the organization they CHOOSE to belong to.
the catholic church has a long history of oppression, murder, and psychological blackmail,
child rape... the list goes on and on. personally, i think the last place
i'd look for spiritual guidance would be the catholic church.

[bigtree]

51. the Catholic religion isn't being judged in these cases, it's the actions of the leaders

. . . who didn't invent or establish the religion that folks are identifying with in their support for the church. Just because I believe in and support our democracy doesn't mean I approve of everything its leadership does.

[patrick t. cakes]

79. the "hierarchy" writes catholic dogma.

do you think jesus did?

the hierarchy IS the catholic church.
they decide what good parishioners believe and dont believe,
being infallible and all.

i think there are many lay catholics out there that are having a hard time
coming to grips with the fact that they are members of an incredibly corrupt and
sick organization.

[pnwmom]

87. You are ignorant of Catholic theology. Neither the Pope nor the rest of the

hierarchy is considered infallible. That is a common fallacy.

Only twice in Church history, both times several hundred years ago, did an individual Pope claim that a particular doctrine was stated with infallibility.

Neither the Papacy nor any individual Pope nor the hierarchy is considered generally infallible.

[patrick t. cakes]

129. is that how the current "hierarchy" is behaving right now?

it would appear the church can do no wrong. and has no intention of making inroads to rectify the problem let alone fessing up to the filth that it is.
hell, child raping priests it would seem can
do no wrong.

[bigtree]

93. folks don't go to church to worship a 'dogma'

. . . or merely participate in some political exercise. Most attend and identify with the Church as a demonstration of their OWN faith and belief in God.

Further, many vital and worthwhile charities and assistance programs originate and are directed from the Church. I don't see any reason why those efforts should be abandoned.

[Toasterlad]

141. Anything the Chuch Does To Benefit the Poor Can Be Done Better By Secular Programs.

Why not support those, instead of the organization that treats children like an all-you-can-eat buffet?

[beardown]

23. As noted, everything get's a little bashing on DU.

Especially, large organizations that are supposed to be bearers of a higher moral standard that have had their hierarchy over a decades long time frame conspire in covering up and abetting widespread child molestations.

Once you throw that big of a slab of raw meet into the lions' den of public debate you're bound to take a few stray hits that may be less warranted than complaining about a bunch of priests raping kids.

[MineralMan]

24. I have bashed the institution of Roman Catholicism.

That is not bashing people who are followers of that institution. I might ask how someone can declare themselves to be members of that church, given the excesses of the institution. That is not "Catholic bashing" either.

The Roman Catholic Church is not immune from criticism when it behaves badly. Individual Catholics are not part of the institution. There are merely adherents of it. I find it difficult to understand how liberal Democrats could support the RCC, but that's a personal choice.

I will not refrain from criticizing and even bashing corrupt and criminal institutions, religious or otherwise.

[hedgehog]

32. Hey - criticize the corruption and criminality , please! We need it.

Without criticism, corruption just festers.


Just recognize that some of us don't confuse the baby with the bath water!

[merh]

60. I think the problem is, you don't recognize that the bashing of

the Catholic Church, the Pope and all the hierarchy, is not a bashing of you or your faith.

You and others who have commented in this thread need to be comfortable in your faith, don't worry about what others think. It is what is in your heart that matters. Follow the examples of the Son, that is why the Father sent Him.

[sabrina 1]

119. Is it okay if I bash religious Jews?

Those who support the abuse of the people of Palestine? Or would I be called 'anti-semitic' by the very same people who believe that Catholic bashing is just fine?

Should we order ALL Jews to leave their faith because of the actions of a few?

Child abuse is wrong no matter who is doing it. Considering how prevalent it is in most religious institutions, there has to be a reason why only Catholics are attacked here because of it.

[Walk away]

134. Religious Jews are not all Israelies. All catholics are catholics.

Get it?

[sabrina 1]

177. No I don't 'get it' since I didn't say religious Jews were all Israelis.

I said those who support the actions of Israelis. The charge you are making about Catholics is that they all support the actions of bad priests and those who cover for them if they remain Catholics. Religious Jews therefore could also be held accountable for continuing to donate to Israel. Or Muslims who remain Muslims and continue to donate to Muslim charities.

It's called prejudice and no one who engages in it no matter who it is directed at, gets a pass. As you so eloquently stated yourself: 'get it'?

[Walk away]

187. Repeating faulty logic doesn't make it so. Israel is not a religion.

If you want to bash all Jews then you should find something that their religion does that is criminal and obscene like the Catholics.


Unlike Catholics and the Pope (who is the living church). Israel is just a country where many Jewish people live. I certainly find Israel's treatment of the Palestinians abhorrent. But it has nothing to do with Jews in general because they do not belong to the "church" or country of Israel.

All Catholics answer to the Vatican and the Pope. He is the leader of the entire Catholic church. If the Pope is not your representative of Christ on Earth then you are not a Catholic. That's the rules. I didn't make them up. The Popes and their flunkies did.

[sabrina 1]

81. And yet you have little to say about the country of which you

are a citizen, slaughtering and torturing innocents in Afghanistan? And sexually abusing them. Tell us again, it's a 'good war'? Isn't that the defense? And now that Obama's has stepped up those crimes, it's even more of a 'good war'?

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones ~

[MineralMan]

117. You have read all of my posts? How odd.

[sabrina 1]

125. I've seen some of them, most of them defending the actions of

this president. I may have missed the ones where you condemned his escalation of the slaughter in Afghanistan. If you believe what you say about Catholics, why are you still a Democrat? Or has the killing stopped and no one told us? The torture in Bagram and elsewhere?

I know, you're working to change that which is why you stay within the party or whatever. Hypocrisy takes many forms. Slamming an entire religion for the actions of a relative few is not different from slamming a country for the same reason.

[MineralMan]

132. If you want to discuss Afghanistan, start a new thread. This thread

is on another topic.

[sabrina 1]

178. I was discussing hypocrisy, using Afghanistan and the support

of democrats for the actions of this president in that country which is the ultimate hypocrisy. Nice attempt to avoid answering the question.

Do you support the increased slaughter of civilians there or are you opposed to it?

IF you are opposed to the killing of innocents in foreign countries, then by your own standards for Catholics, you need to leave the Democratic Party because it is their war now, along with the continued practice of torture and corruption.

This relates directly to YOU. You are making moral judgements of people based on their faith. Yet, you will not answer a question as to why YOU should not be judged by your own standards.

P.S. I do not expect a direct answer to this question. It will either be ignored, which will confirm what I thought, or there will be another attempt to side-step the question.

[muffin1]

124. I criticize Obama constantly these days.

I don't like the war, the watered down health care bill, not repealing DADT, not standing up for the gay community - all of it.
I also don't like the church - any denomination - that suppresses the rights of women and gay folk. Especially those who do so while molesting - or covering up for the molestation - of CHILDREN. I'm funny that way.

[sabrina 1]

183. But you're still a Democrat right?

People are still Catholics while doing all that you are doing regarding the president. But they are being told they ought to leave the church. By that logic, not one person in this thread demanding that Catholics leave their faith behind because of the actions of a relative few, ought to still be a member of the Democratic Party.

I don't like torture, sexual abuse of children and of women detainees in front of their children, bombs dropping on innocent people in Afghanistan and Iraq, now all under the supervision of Democrats.

And most of all, I abhor the fact that this president doesn't intend to hold anyone responsible, or to allow any of the victims to at least sue their torturers. In that sense, the Catholic Church has made more headway than the Democratic Party. At least the victims are being compensated.

I haven't left the Catholic Church or The Democratic Party. Neither organization deserves much respect, at least at the top where decisions are made. Maybe I can help to change that in some small way.

But if I were demanding that YOU leave the Democratic Party over those outrageous human rights abuses which they are turning a blind to and now perpetuating, I would have to leave both the party and the church, or be considered a hypocrite.

[darkstar3]

222. As I noted downthread,

you have a myriad of options to continue your worship without supporting a disgusting patriarchal and conservative hierarchy.

Secondly, contrary to what the name may suggest, not everyone on this board is a Democrat. Many are like myself and darkspouse..."too left for the Democrats, too realistic for a third party." When a viable left-wing candidate surfaces, you can bet your ass the Democrat won't be getting my vote. In a two-party system, however, you vote for the lesser of two evils.

Two-party political system | A different church for every religious belief under the sun.
...Sure, it's fair to compare those two situations...:eyes:

[madmom]

27. You guys have obviously not seen any of the fat bashing threads! n/t

[iris27]

274. +1

After seeing just a couple of those, nothing gets me to click "hide thread" faster than anything discussing a soda tax, or HCFS, or the "obesity epidemic".

[Newest Reality]

29. Right now, the RCC is

an extremely high-profile and volatile subject in the mainstream.

Obviously, that is going to bring strong opinions both ways, along with dissent and stong criticism.

[fascisthunter]

41. sorry but the church deserves it at this point

when the church or members of that church try to right the situation, the church itself as a whole is going to be bashed. You are right in distinguishing between actions and the church itself, but it is the church's responsibility... not just specific members.

[hedgehog]

128. The problem is that those of us who continue to identify as Catholic

are constantly derided for trying to work from within rather than leaving.

[fascisthunter]

169. don't pay attention to those deriding you... you are doing what is right

if the church is that important to you, then fight for it.... it's a noble cause. The church is only as good as the people are and vice versa.. this goes for any group out there, whether it be a church or a union... all have to clean their own back yards. The worst thing is to throw out the baby with the bath water so to say.

Whe good people such as yourself take back the church people will respect the church itself more, but they need to see members fighting for what's right and not allowing the right wingers in that church to take over.

Same goes for this country... until we make right as a nation, people around the World will blame us as a whole.

[jody]

54. The Roman Catholic Church is the largest organization in the world under one CEO. That makes it the

most provocative target for anyone.

For the record I do not condone any criminal or evil deed by anyone particularly when a leader uses his/her cloak of authority to commit the deed.

[mike_c]

64. screw that-- I have equal disdain for ALL superstitious mumbo jumbo...

...and catholicism is just one of the many flavors of crazy.

[Walk away]

65. If you want to identify with the Catholic church that is your choice...

but willingly contributing money to an institution that has a policy of protecting child abusers is something different. According to the Catholic church itself, there were many good Nazis but I don't think that would stop me from calling Adolph Hitler a monster.

As well, millions of Catholics have accepted as their complete leader and voice of their god, a man who spent his youth as part of an organization that murdered six million Jews. He then opened the arms of his church and lent validity to Nazi apologists and Holocaust denier Bishops. This is the responsibility of every member of that church. That is who they chose to be associated with and represented by. Why are they always complaining about it?

[Celeborn Skywalker]

76. Yeah, devout Mexican peasants

in Mexico are responsible for everything the hiearchy does. Uh huh. Try that argument in my hispanic Catholic community and see how far that gets you and other "liberals" trying to get democratic votes.

[pnwmom]

91. If all the progressive Catholics left the Democratic party

the party wouldn't win another election.

The bashing should end.

[Walk away]

137. If all Democrats turned their backs on the Catholic church it would be great!

We would still win everything and some of us would not have to be hypocrites and child rapist enablers!

[sabrina 1]

184. If only that was true. You are supporting a party

that has refused to punish those who instituted torture as a policy where children were raped, mothers raped in front of their children and men forced into performing sexual acts against their will, not to mention the number tortured to death.

YOU are being a hypocrite by still supporting a party that will not even allow the victims of those horrible crimes to sue their torturers. Obama's DOJ has fought every victim's attempt to get some justice.

The torture continues, more innocent men women and children are being slaughtered in Afghanistan now under the orders of a Democratic president.

What is it? Are American and European children more entitled to justice than Iraqis and Afghans?

Because it is unadulterated hypocrisy for anyone to remain in the Democratic Party now considering what they are hiding and condoning, and then attack anyone else for not leaving the Catholic Church.

The president fighting compensation. At least the CC is compensating victims now so they are ahead of the Democratic Party in that regard.

Your prejudice is showing ~

[Walk away]

188. The difference is that I supported this party in the hopes that this would change.

It is my hope that this war in Afghanistan will end because this administration will bring it to a close. I can at least give them the time to try and change it. If they don't then I will support the next group who will try again.

Your church has been raping children for centuries and the hush money they give to their victims is actually nauseating. Where are the priests in jail????? Has anyone ever really paid for these crimes? And you continue to defend it.

[sabrina 1]

190. You are defending torture because it is your party

that is in charge. And while you sit here giving your party time to clean up their act, innocent people are dying every day. And women in the military are being raped on a regular basis, not to mention what is going on in our secret prisons around the world.

Democrats were supposed to stop that, or at least not escalate it. They were supposed to hold the criminals accountable, but we are told to 'look forward, not backward'. Imagine if the CC were to make that statement?

Do you think that those Iraqi children who were raped do not deserve the same justice as those abused by priests? Do you know also how many other religious organizations have a record of abuse of children? Because you seem to care only about those abused by Catholic priests. I care about all abused children, including those abused by the U.S. I especially care about those dying in Iraq and Afghanistan from drones, ordered by the CIC of this country. And it doesn't matter which party is doing it, when you are the victim.

It is not 'my church' btw. Your sweeping condemnation of millions of innocent people because of the actions of a relative few, is called prejudice.

For the record, I do not think anyone should leave the Dem. Party or the CC. But then I am not the one claiming that leaving an organization when some of its members commit unspeakable acts, and trust me, the acts committed against Afghan citizens and Iraqis are unspeakable, is the only 'moral' thing to do. Over one million of them dead, millions more living in refugee camps, and untold millions maimed and starving. Can there be a more unspeakable act than such slaughter and abuse of innocents?

You are the one demanding that when an organization has members who are accused of unspeaskable acts, its members should quit that organization. Either live up to your own standards, or refrain from ordering other people to do what you yourself will not.

[LAGC]

229. Is the Catholic Church even trying to change?

Isn't that the key difference here? Where as our Democratic Administration has at least laid out time-tables and plans for orderly withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan, what plans does the Catholic Church have to, say, end the celibacy rule for priests to stop them from resorting to sexual acting out with the only people available to them: children? The Church hierarchy is very resistant to change, where at least our Democratic Administration is open to change. That's a big difference between the two if you ask me.

At least we, as Democratic voters, have some say in what our politicians do. Whereas Church members have zero say in what their leadership does, as it isn't democratic at all, but very top-down organized with dictates coming from above.

So faulty comparison. But good try.

[darkstar3]

167. I think you overestimate your numbers. n/t

[Toasterlad]

168. Gonna Take Your Ball And Go Home, Eh?

That's what we gays told people we were going to do unless the Democratic party stopped cow-towing to bigoted groups like the catholic church. Difference is, we have a legitimate complaint.

[Walk away]

103. Mexican peasants? Who is blaming uneducated and superstitious people...

for being the new fodder for a corrupt group of scoundrels? I don't think they are among the insulted bloggers that the OP is about. No, they are the ones that are told that wearing condoms are a sin and cause AIDS. In this modern world the church has to indoctrinate the least informed by using lies and the donations from it's dwindling middle class.

Millions of new sheep to be abused and lied to.

[saltpoint]

67. From the cheap seats, let me please yell out that I'd like to see the

Catholic Church adhere to the Francis of Assissi model and the Republican Party return to the Lincoln model.

[Walk away]

69. I'd like to see them both jump in the lake. . . nt

[BeatleBoot]

94. Can You Feel The Love in Here!

:rofl:

Classic DU Thread.


:rofl:

[JohnnyLib2]

144. No kidding.

The JFK quote says 40 million; I think the total U.S. figure is now around 70 million. Helluva lot of people to lambast anonymously. :banghead:

[JNelson6563]

118. Indeed.

It's rather blatant. I'm often surpirsed some of those threads are allowed to remain.

Julie

[Bigmack]

126. I used to be an Irish Catholic....

but I'm an American now.

Footnote: Thanks George Carlin

[TankLV]

133. NAME ONE!

I don't see a SINGLE catholic - who supports the church doing what you claim. EVER!

I see plenty of FORMER catholics - and THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN ABUSED - doing that - but not ONE CURRENT MEMBER doing that!

EVER!

And those like you are alway present to CONDEMN and COMPLAIN about those of us who do point out the criminality of the church!

And, no, posting on DU does not count.

ONLY FIGHTING THIS CRAP IN PULIC so it gains NATIONAL PRESS counts.

So far - the SILENCE is DEAFENING...

[Toasterlad]

138. "Of course, the existence of Stalin proves all Russians are evil."

No...all of Stalin's FOLLOWERS were evil.

"Russian" is a nationality. "Catholic" is a religion (led by a pro-pedophile nazi). One is a choice, the other is not.

You can't stop being a Russian. You CAN stop supporting pedophilia.

[jgraz]

197. That's why I left the Catholics: really bad logic.

:evilgrin:

[Toasterlad]

202. In Their Defense, It Takes Seriously Bad Logic To Make That Whole Resurrection Thing Work.

[WolverineDG]

139. Wow this one gets moved to R&T but the Christian-bashing ones don't

Nope, no double standard to see here...move along....

dg

[struggle4progress]

145. I'm not Catholic but I've been known to attend some Catholic services from time to time

Despite the popular image of the Catholic Church, parishes can sometimes be quite progressive

I've heard all manner of good homilies -- against homophobia, against the death penalty, against war. The priest in charge at one parish where I attended services wrote a newspaper column when the abuse scandal broke a decade ago: basically, what he said was No matter what the hierarchy tells us, I'll go to the police if I find anybody here sexually involved with children

[Toasterlad]

148. Exactly. The Priest Has To Act Against the Orders Of His Bosses To Do the Moral Thing.

What a fine organization to work for. I can see why all the catholics are proud of their church.

[struggle4progress]

153. Perhaps his ultimate loyalty did not belong to the institution but belonged to something else

[Toasterlad]

156. Then Why Work For the Catholic Church?

[sabrina 1]

185. Why are you a Democrat still?

They are killing innocent people in Afghanistan and Iraq, refusing to hold torturers and sexual abusers of men, women and children responsible, refusing to allow the victims of those crimes to get compensation at least, and torture is still going on under their watch.

So tell me, why are you a Democrat?

[Walk away]

189. Perhaps because they are the most likely group to be able to...

stop that war. There aren't that many groups who can. The Republicans won't and the Green Party can't so the Democratic party is the the only hope and it may still happen.

There are plenty of religions to chose from that have a better reputation that the catholic church. Why do you stay with a group with a two thousand year history of war, torture, abuse and intolerance?

[sabrina 1]

191. And maybe that's why many Catholics

remain in the church.

But then you could argue that if everyone left the Democratic Party and the Church, or at least thereatened to, that would work better. Everyone has to decide what is the best way to stop these abuses, in all Churches and countries. But it seems only Catholics are being required to leave their church or be tarred with the same brush as the relatively few despicable characters who abused children. If that is how it works, then Democrats who remain in the party, have to accept the same rules.

[Toasterlad]

194. This World Would Be Hugely Closer To Paradise If Everyone Left the Church

I didn't honestly have much use for John Lennon, but he sure got that one right.

[ironbark]

206. Ahhh huh, And the atheists are ready to step up

and, through the goodness of their hearts, replace the Schools, Hospitals, Welfare Agencies and supportive communities provided by the catholic church?...!?!

And of course when they do so there will never be any incidents of abuse or cover up because the atheists adhere to such a high moral code…..as evidenced by their behaviour on this board.

History has provided opportunity for the demonstration of atheist “Paradise”…it was a horrid failure at every national attempt and a dismal failure at every showcase local commune attempt.

[Toasterlad]

209. You're Right. We Wouldn't Want To Risk a Repeat Of the Great Aethism Wars Of Old

I guess since there are no secular versions of schools, hospitals, welfare agencies and support communities, we'd be pretty fucked without religion telling us what to do. And without religion, our child molesters would have to go to jail, where they'd be useless, whereas now, they can be reassigned to some other needy locale! Not to mention, who would tell us why to hate women and gays?

Yes, we sure would be up shit creek without good old religion.

[ironbark]

220. Minimal risk, the Soviet is dead, China converting, all you have left is Nth Korea.

“I guess since there are no secular versions of schools, hospitals, welfare agencies and support communities,”

Everybody, theist and non, support those “secular versions”….and then the theists establish those agencies and organizations I referred to.
And when armchair atheists can get off their sanctimonious pontificating fat arses and produce ONE HUNDREDTH of what the churches provided in EXTRA Welfare, Health and Education…then I will begin to ignore their intellectual masturbation and take a look at their deeds.

“Yes, we sure would be up shit creek without good old religion”

Yes, and anyone who works in Health, Welfare and Education knows that of a certainty.

It is only Chardonnay sucking socialists and arsewhipe armchair atheists who are wilfully ignorant of and obstinately oblivious to the work the churches do.

When you can begin to replicate it come back and see me.

[LAGC]

231. Pious charity is hollow charity.

What's better? People who help other people out of the goodness of their hearts through secular institutions, or people who only help other people because they think it gets them brownie points with God through their religious charters? If I'm ever in need, the last place I'll turn to is a religious organization for help. And you can take that to the bank.

[darkstar3]

233. +1

[ironbark]

240. Hollow noise is….just hollow noise

You would rather starve than seek out a religious soup kitchen?

Freeze rather than seek out a religious shelter for homeless?

Die rather than attend a religious hospital?

Bye. No great loss to the gene pool.

A more compassionate humanity will carry on without you.

When armchair atheists can get off their sanctimonious pontificating fat arses and produce ONE HUNDREDTH of what the churches provided in EXTRA Welfare, Health and Education…then I will begin to ignore their intellectual masturbation and take a look at their deeds.

[Toasterlad]

247. We'll Get Right On That.

The armchair atheists want nothing more than for you to ignore their intellectual masturbation they do when they're not sanctimoniously pontificating from their fat asses, and bless their works with your bountiful christian judgment, which is freely given in a not at all sanctimonious and self-congratulatory way.

However, I DO hope they locate the gene responsible for making all atheists fat, and do something about it. Otherwise, our almost endless supply of catholic health charities will be overrun with obese atheists and their weight-related problems. If only they would just convert to christianity, the pounds would melt away! I mean, seriously: when's the last time you saw a fat christian??? Never, right???

In any case, I get your point now. catholic charities exist. If catholic charities didn't exist, there would be no charities. That's flawless logic. The people who devote their time and money to catholic charities would just fold up their tents and play Xbox all day if there were no religious charities. Then we'd be up shit creek for SURE!

[BuddhaGirl]

261. +1

the black and white thinking exhibited on this thread is sad...

[Toasterlad]

270. Yeah, That's What I Thought.

You are wise to quit while you're mired in idiocy.

[ironbark]

275. You don’t need me to maintain your rant with yourself.

You disingenuously falsify the others clearly stated pov.
You ignore all points and counter points to your pov.
You clearly believe that any question, even those seeking clarification of your own pov, aught be ignored.

Carry on.
Keep arguing with yourself...let us know if you catch yourself making sense.

;-)

[ChadwickHenryWard]

262. That's total bullshit.

The schools are about control of our nation's children. If they cared so much about education they would be giving money to the public schools and not trying to run their own. Private schools are the single largest obstacle to getting our public schools the funding they need. Hospitals and charities, as we have seen, are conditional on the local area's policies on abortion, brith control, and gay rights. Just a few months ago in Washington, D. C., denial of aid was used as a weapon against granted gays equal rights. Those things should all be controlled by the government and not the Church. If the RCC ceased to exist (we should be so lucky) the government would have the responsiblity to take care of those social matters.

And your claim about atheist societies is totally false. The most secular societies in the world, Scandinavia and New Zealand, consistantly rank at the top of measures of quality of life.

[darkstar3]

267. +1

:applause:

[Toasterlad]

272. Hmm. No Response. Shocking.

It's mildly curious how much christian apologists resemble Repubs. Confront them with facts, and they fade away.

On edit: To be fair, I just realized how recently the post I responded to was written. I suppose I have to give the apologist time to come up with a half assed rebuttal before I laugh at them.

[ironbark]

277. No apology for having a life.

Spent the day travelling up a river to reach-



then lunch and a light fruity white on the way back down the river.

So terribly sorry to keep you waiting but-
1/ It is anothers post, not yours, you are expecting a response to.
2/ We have already established that you don't need me for your conversation with yourself.
3/ You do not grant either time or the generosity of alowing the other to have a pov of their own prior to your fabricating something to laugh at.

It looks a lot like that form of sexual gratification found alone...but do cary on ;-)

[ironbark]

276. Your opinion does not withstand critical examination

“The schools are about control of our nation's children”

I believe that with a minimal amount of research you will find that the very first public schools in the US were founded (not on reading, writing and arithmetic) but on the inculcation of what was known as ‘The Virtues’….Trust, Cooperation, Respect…etc.
This may well be seen as “about control of our nation's children”

“Private schools are the single largest obstacle to getting our public schools the funding they need.”

I believe the appropriate expression is- “That's total bullshit”
The single largest obstacle to getting our public schools the funding they need is the US Military and Military/Industrial budget.
Iraq alone comes in at $255 million per day, or a little less than $1.8 billion a week.

You want to ignore >THAT< elephant in the room and blame private schools?

“If the RCC ceased to exist (we should be so lucky) the government would have the responsiblity to take care of those social matters.”

Governments >ALREADY DO< “have the responsibility to take care of those social matters”…in the absence of social pressure and political will THE CHURCHES TAKE UP THE ROLE. And only shallow, narrow ignorance and bigotry could wish they “ceased to exist” >unless and until< alternative agencies are put in place.

The invitation to atheists/socialists/whoevers who object to the essential work the churches do still stands- Get up off your pontificating arses and show us how it should be done. There is nothing stopping you and the sooner you eliminate the social need the sooner religion will “ceased to exist”.

Looking forward to seeing your collective heroic efforts dealing with the homeless, disabled, drug addicted, aged, poor and afflicted.
No doubt the blossoming atheist agencies will display the same tolerance, courtesy and respect to their clients as they display here on this board.
Zero.


“And your claim about atheist societies is totally false.”

I refered to attempts (large and small) to establish “atheist “Paradise”
The attempts thus far to establish “atheist societies”….The Soviet Union, China, Nth Korea…horrid failures and the hundreds of purpose built atheistic showcase communes…all failed.
Scandinavia and New Zealand are not “atheist societies” by any standard or measure nor are they attempts to establish “atheist “Paradise”.

[Toasterlad]

193. Not a Democrat: I'm a Registered Independent

Precisely BECAUSE of Democratic policies with which I don't agree.

So I guess that makes ME not a hypocrite. What do you have to say for YOURself?

[EvolveOrConvolve]

149. We're doing what we always do when a corporation acts irresponsibly

We're pressuring the customers of that corporation (you and other Catholics) to abandon the product itself in favor of other, more responsible companies. Don't kid yourself, the Catholic church is simply another in a long line of corporations that has hidden its misdeeds to prop up profits and maintain power. Hitting a corporation where it hurts the most, in the pocketbook, is the most effective way of creating change, and that change should start with the individual Catholics who support the church.

I think your analogy to Russian citizenship is inapt because citizenship is not a choice - we're born where we're born, and we can't control that. A better analogy might be the Boy Scouts of America since like the Catholic church, membership in it is voluntary. I dropped out of that organization and stopped all financial support because of BSA's support of anti-gay policies. Even though I think that BSA does some good things, I can't in good faith support them with my time and money, even though the anti-gay policies may not be enforced (and in fact may be discouraged) in my local troop.

[grahamhgreen]

151. Catholics are AOK with me - it would be nice to change the age of consent in the Vatican up from 12.

[Enthusiast]

154. I was raised Catholic,

I attended Catholic schools. I don't feel castigated or persecuted on DU. I have heard no denunciation of Catholics on the DU. I have heard much deserved criticism of Catholic Church Hierarchy.

[Davis_X_Machina]

157. From a 1000+ post member...

....the statement 'I have heard no denunciation of Catholics on the DU.' is literally unbelievable.

[Enthusiast]

163. I must have missed them.

Really.

[darkstar3]

160. Sorry hedgehog, but you're not a real Catholic.

Do you know what they call Catholics who don't like the hierarchy? Anglicans.
Do you know what they call Catholics who don't like the Pope himself? Old Catholics.
Do you know what they call Catholics who don't like the doctrines of "good works" and indulgences? Lutherans

I could go on for quite a while, but I won't. If you don't like your Church, not only is there a door at the back which you are free to walk through, there is most likely a Schism that you can follow to find people who more closely agree with your beliefs.

[Toasterlad]

161. +1

[DeSwiss]

171. What a load of crap! n/t

[Odin2005]

172. The RCC is an international crime syndicate, and nothing will change that opinion.

That doesn't mean I hate "Catholics"

[BurtWorm]

174. Can I just ask you what you get out of being a Catholic?

Or put another way, why are you a Catholic, of all spiritual bents you can be?

Any DUer who is a Catholic could jump in here. For me, who is outside the church and who, furthermore, is a nonbeliever in any religion, sometimes the Catholic church seems most incomprehensible to me. I understand its historical legacy, but I don't understand how a modern person can be a member of the flock, especially when the church hierarchy is so backward in so many ways. What is it about Catholicism that enables you to remain a Catholic despite the ridiculousness (at best, it seems) and evil perpetrated by the hierarchy?

[Toasterlad]

175. I, Also, Would Like An Answer To This Question From All These Die-Hard Catholics.

[sabrina 1]

180. I was raised a Catholic, but like so many others, drifted

away from being a practicing Catholic. It was because of what I learned which was pretty simple and based on the teachings of Christ, that made me a Liberal Democrat. I learned that all people are equal in the eyes of God, that the poor, the sick, the elderly and disabled are our responsibility to look out for. That we should visit those in jail who have no one to do so and it is not for us to judge why they are there.

We didn't read the bible much, personally I found it boring and unreadable as a child an teenager. I found sitting in Church to be boring so I stopped going. St. Francis was a favorite saint with most of my teachers and friends.

I am astounded by the rightwing 'Christians' who seem to have missed most of the teachings of the man whose name they have appropriated. And yes, like most Catholics I see the hypocrisy of many in the hierarchy and have many arguments and disagreements with them. But there are also many wonderful people doing good work for the poor, like the Franciscans in NYC eg, who protected the homeless from Giuliani's thugs when he decided that being poor was a crime. They provide rooms for over 300 homeless people regardless of their beliefs.

Like all big governments or organizations there is corruption and favoritism. People are human. What bothered me most about the Catholic Church and all the Churches in this country was how silent they were on the policies of George Bush.

The teachers, priests and nuns I had were wonderful people and are as shocked as everyone else at the revelations of abuse by others. It's a shame that some people are so prejudiced that they lump a whole religion, or ethnic group, or country together under the pretext that they are so outraged by a particular crime. Much like the right has condemned all Muslims because of 9/11.

[ironbark]

207. As a non Catholic and agnostic I (and the community) gain a great deal.

Having spent nearly three decades in the Education and Welfare sectors I have see first hand the immense day to day coalface effort that the churches put into community support programs and education. The homeless shelters, the soup kitchens, the youth programs, the financial assistance programs, the schools, aged care facilities and hospitals.


I married into a big bog Irish Catholic clan, solid people, decent people, salt of the earth. One of the aunties I inherited is a Josephite Sister “To make the cause of the poor our cause” is the creed they live and work by. And I don’t have to share their belief in god to exclaim- “By god they do it well”! These ‘sisters’ are in their 60’s and 70’s now, still fighting fit and keenly intelligent, with compassion and good humour in spades. And here’s the thing…when these gentle old souls gather together to discuss the work of their various social welfare missions they consciously and deliberately raise- “What is our shadow side…what evil might we do inadvertently, by error or neglect”
>>>THAT<<< is sophistication! That is the kind of conscious and considered introspection and self examination that is so ABSENT from secular organizations.

Shit….If you (collective) want to poke a stick at the Catholic church (any churches) THEN GET OUT THERE AND SET A BETTER EXAMPLE!

[Toasterlad]

214. Sorry...I Didn't Know I Had To Be Catholic To Do Charity Work.

All this time, I've been breaking the law!

[ironbark]

241. I didn’t know you couldn’t read or comprehend plain text

are you going to blame your Catholic education?


Nobody said or suggested anything about having to be catholic to do charity work…and yet you choose to ignore the entire content of the post and go with falsification…even to the point of pretending it’s about the “law” .

If you (collective) want to poke a stick at the Catholic church (any churches) THEN GET OUT THERE AND SET A BETTER EXAMPLE!

You have not done so, you will not do so, you have no motivation to do so, you will just continue to moan bitch and complain about the charitable deeds of others.

[Toasterlad]

245. Could You Tell Me Where the Hidden Cameras You've Got On Me Are?

I want to make sure they always get my best side.

And be sure and thank the catholic church for the good example they're constantly setting! They're definitely doing all they can to bring the issue of pedophilia to light!

[ironbark]

252. Plain text comprehention test-"If you (collective) "

You (singular) failed.

[Toasterlad]

253. Sorry, I Can't Speak For All the Other Godless Homos.

I can only account for myself. Apparently, since any charity I perform is meaningless unless all the other godless homos do it too, I guess I have no choice but to concede that you're right, and that christians are a necessary part of every good deed that can ever be done in this country.

[ironbark]

265. Your disingenuous extrapolation serves as pure fabrication.

Likewise your projection/insistence that gays are without god/s
The Sisters of the Order Of Perpetual Indulgence
http://www.universaljoy.com.au/MG2010.htm

"..concede that you're right, and that christians are a necessary part of every good deed that can ever be done in this country."

When you ignore my clearly stated pov and surplant it with your own fabricated bullshit you are engaged in a one way conversation with yourself.

No surprise there, that is the whitewashing SOAP, Standard Operating Atheist Procedure.

[Toasterlad]

268. You Didn't Expect a Silly Gay Person To Be Able To Keep Up WIth You, Did You?

I mean, you're SO smart, with you fancy links about how some gay people believe in sky fairies, which proves that ALL gay people believe in sky fairies! With such irrefutable prove behind you, how could you possibly be wrong about anything, especially about telling a gay person what gay people are supposed to believe!

Sorry I doubted you.

[ironbark]

278. I don’t think you can blame sexuality for stupidity

But if you wish to make that case…once more…you are on your own and talking to yourself.

Here you go again-
“..fancy links about how some gay people believe in sky fairies, which proves that ALL gay people believe in sky fairies!”

The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence comprise theists, atheists and a good number of hedonists…it’s what’s known as a ‘broad church’.

The absurdity that it “proves that ALL gay people believe in sky fairies!” or in any way seeks to do so is your absurdity and yours alone.

Sister Carmen Geddit, Sister Mary Mother of Pearl and I do not share your absurd suggestion.

“With such irrefutable prove behind you, how could you possibly be wrong about anything, especially about telling a gay person what gay people are supposed to believe!”

What it proves is no more than what is already well known to anyone who is familiar with the gay community-
There are gay Catholics, gay Buddhists, gay Scientologists, gay Muslims, gay atheists……..go figure.

“…telling a gay person what gay people are supposed to believe”

Yea….like that happened.


“Sorry I doubted you.”

You don’t doubt me…you can’t even hear me…Your conversation is with your own internal dialogue.

[sabrina 1]

263. Lol, good one.

S/he's fun to play with, but not much substance there making it too easy and boring after a while.

[LAGC]

255. Why, tradition, Watson... "Was born Catholic, will die Catholic."

Isn't that the usual response? People act like religion is something chosen for you, rather than you being able to choose it.

How many times have I heard my godmother say something to me like: "Why not celebrate the heritage? Everyone has been part of this church for generations..."

Indeed, tradition is a powerful conservative force. It takes effort to change.

[ZombieHorde]

195. I bash the Catholic Church quite a lot here on DU. There seems to be some misunderstandings.

DU members who identify as Catholic are castigated and charged in supporting the because they continue to identify as Catholic

No. People who pay for the cover ups and the suppression of gay civil rights are castigated and charged with supporting those activities because they are supporting those activities.

When the Catholic DU members object that they are more upset about the hierarchy than non-members,and that we are trying to make changes in the institutional structure we are told that we can't be Catholics unless we support every act of the hierarchy and believe every line of the Catechism.

This comes from a confusion many of us have, including my self. Here is how I view it, but I am going to change the groups of people around to make the point more clear.

I am a member of a club. This club says black people are inferior to white people. This club then spends money trying to repress the civil rights of black people. This club also spends money on good deeds, such as feeding the homeless. What should I do?

1) Continue to be a member and donate money to the club.

2) Continue to be a member but don't donate any money to the club. Perhaps I will donate to the Red Cross instead, but I will still be a member of a hate group.

3) Leave the club but continue to donate money to the club. A weird option, but I included it anyway.

4) Leave the club and either donate money to a non-bigoted club or keep my money.

The only way to change the Church is to quit giving them money, and that may not even work. We are not talking about some minor political differences, we are talking about civil rights and child rape. These are major issues for many of us.

In other words, the two groups who support the role of the hierarchy in the Catholic Church are the members of the hierarchy and those who want to condemn the Church.

Those who give the Catholic Church money are rewarding the Church, not condemning it.

[Toasterlad]

200. Very Succinctly Put.

[rug]

215. How much have you donated to the Democratic Party?

And how much do you support the escalation in Afghanistan?

[ZombieHorde]

218. I have donated $0.00 to the Democratic Party.

I smoke pot every once in a while and I won't donate to someone who thinks my ass belongs in jail.

And how much do you support the escalation in Afghanistan?

My Government class had a guest speaker from Afghanistan about two weeks ago. His position on the U.S. war in Afghanistan was a bit fuzzy to me. He seemed to favor our military presence, but he hated the violence which came with it. He said the people feared being abandoned, but they did not want war. I wanted to ask him to expand on this issue, but we ran out of time. His accent was a little thick for my ear, so I may have misunderstood him.

So to answer your question, I don't support the escalation, but I am not sure about the proper course of action. Before I heard this guest speaker I would have said all troops out now.

[rug]

219. You shouldn't believe everything you hear

and you should not be an agnostic on war.

[ZombieHorde]

221. If I believed everything I hear, I would have never abandoned the Catholic Church.

I am not agnostic about the war, I believe the war exists.

I am uncertain about the best course of action in Afghanistan. I don't want the war, but the schools need protection.

[rug]

230. We are not in Afghanistan for the schools.

And the war certainly exists.

[Toasterlad]

246. Oh, I Get It! There's War in Afghanistan, So It's Okay To Support Catholic Pedophila!

Makes sense.

[rug]

259. Follow the thread. Your head will hurt less.

[ZombieHorde]

260. We just got off subject. I believe Rug wanted to see if I donated

to the Democratic Party even though the Democratic Party is escalating the war in Afghanistan. This would have helped to understand why a person would donate to a group which the donater strongly disagreed with. Unfortunately for Rug's example, I don't donate to groups I strongly disagree with.

[Toasterlad]

269. So...Rug Is Full Of Shit?

I suspected as much.

[rug]

282. So...prove it.

I suspect your post is full of shit.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

257. Great post.

:thumbsup:

[DeSwiss]

271. I bow to you....

...very eloquently put.

[Warren Stupidity]

198. I don't bash people who are Catholics, I bash a venal corrupt institution.

And that is mostly what I have seen here and elsewhere regarding the astounding behavior of that institution and its leaders to their epidemic of pederasty.

[donheld]

234. Cry me a river.

[PeaceNikki]

258. Yeah...

[Name removed]

264. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hello_Kitty]

281. Good things associated with a particular church are due its innate goodness

Bad things are caused by a few bad actors (some of whom may hold exalted leadership positions in the organization) and not to be attributed to the institution itself.