Calling all Biblical experts - serious help needed

[thereismore]

here's the situation: I told our elders that I think our church is missing a heart. It is heavily republican. All elders support the Iraq war. The church as a whole never spoke against the war. I told them a Christian church that honors the teaching of Christ can not support this (Iraq) war. They were puzzled at my anger and said, among other things, that the church is not responsible for the actions of the government (a separation of church and state came handy all of a sudden), even though they all voted for the murderer as a "lesser evil overall". They say they hate war (in a nebulous sort of way) and asked me what exactly I think the Church should do in a case like this. They cited the articles where it says that Christians should obey the secular authorities. I told them that one of the brightest moments of (some) evangelical churches was their support of the Underground Railroad, where they trafficked escaped slaves to freedom, in direct conflict with the secular authorities and law. They said that's true but that was a different situation. I insisted that our church has not done the right thing. They challenged me to come up with BIBLICALLY sound recommendations as to what the Church should have done when the US attacked Iraq.

I'd be very grateful if you helped me formulate a Biblical case for "what should a Christian Church do when the government attacks another country". I know there are a ton of reasons why the war was unjust, but that's not the issue here. The issue is: "what does the Bible say that a church (believers) should do when the government attacks another country".

Many thanks, God bless.

[Maple]

1. Quote Jesus

Matthew Chapter 5, verse 9

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

[valerief]

2. You poor thing

Too bad reasoning won't work with them.

Good luck.

[silverlib]

3. I can't wait for the answers!

I am a member of a P&J group in my church - there are eight of us that feel the same way you do.

Thanks for asking the question.

[roguevalley]

4. Isaiah (spelling-sigh. that one throws me) says that you should turn

your swords into plowshares and not study war anymore. God had his commandments and Jesus said turn the other cheek and accept harm before giving it. If I had my Bible, I would tell you where to look.

Also, if they use the Old Testament, remind them that it is often said that Jesus is the new covenant and the old testament is no longer valid in the life of a Christian. I will check my Bible shortly. It is indicative of their lapse of understanding in the true meaning of the message that they don't understand you. Jesus and their religion is a performance and a justification to lives filled with money and worldly things. You are surrounded by Pharisees.

[cssmall]

5. If you don't mind me asking, what denomination?

That is important, at least to me, then from there it becomes a stock explanation.

[thereismore]

13. independend evangelical church non-denominational

(i.e., not presbyterian, not methodist). Our profession of faith is most closely matched by Southern Baptist. You might call it a fundie church I suppose...

[cssmall]

14. Then, you might have a "Just War" clause in your church.

[thereismore]

15. Good idea. I will research the favorite Puritans on "the war".

Thanks.

[smoogatz]

6. How about: Thou shalt not kill.

That pretty much sums it up for me. And there's always: love thine enemy. According to the teachings of Christ, NO war is justified. Anyone who tries to tell you different has got their nose stuck in the Old Testament.

[applegrove]

7. I hated Saddam too. For the genocide. He should have been taken

out 15 years ago for that. But when it looked like he was going to get it - I was for the War. Yes, I bought all of Powell's lies. And then Rummy, re-invented war according to "his" assumptions and they didn't make it an effective or functional invasion - I wanted to scream. They didn't, once again, get control. And they went in for the wrong reasons. The UN could have done a much better job. So the next time there is a genocidal maniac the U.S. wants to attack - I will only support the UN invasion. The U.S. does not have the qualifications to be the world's police. Because it seems America, on its own, cannot win. Part of me suspects that they don't win in places like Iraq..because they didn't really want to. I hope they pay for their crimes. I really do.

I also hope your church elders can distinguish between a war of defense, a war to stop genocide and this one. You could teach them. Why not form a group at your church to "discuss the war". Study the history of it. And perhaps..people will learn something.

[thereismore]

16. I gave them all the reasons. I told them that

an aggression to stop genocide is justified, but this was not the case. They said yes it was the case, didn't you see the massacred Kurds etc? and I said yes, but that was at least 10 years ago, there was no active genocide going on in Iraq in 2003, and Saddam was complying with UN resolutions, and they told me I didn't have all the facts and where was I getting it from. Even so, what is a church to do? Iwas frustrated and started yelling at them, my wife said I was raving like a mad child, and they told me yelling like that is immature for a Christian.

[xray s]

8. the question is pointless

Jesus didn't aim his message at a "church". He aimed it at individuals.

There he was quite clear...and you can tell your church they have been hanging around with the goats. They are following the lovers of Mammon, vain and murderous. Believers in bloodshed for oil (as Bush openly admitted last week)

Matthew 25

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

I don't think the kind of "visits to prisoners" that BushCo perpetrated at Abu Graib are what Jesus had in mind...

[More Than A Feeling]

9. Tell them to Prophesy

The Old Testament prophets brought the message of God's judgement on the nation of Israel, on the leaders and the rich people who were abusing the orphan, the widow, and especially the poor.

The Church's duty when the nation goes to unjust war is to proclaim the justice of the Lord far and wide, and call the leaders to turn from their evil ways and repent.

[thereismore]

17. That's of course what I feel in my heart. we are to be

the light to the world. Problem is, all our elders are FOR this war in principle. Seems to me, I have to leave the church.

[Jim Bob]

36. Please don't

Please do not give up your church over a political disagreement. Church is for worship of God, not politics.

[cssmall]

10. There are so many salient points to be made here.

Simply said, there are two commandments to be used in the instance of this specific war: Thou shalt not kill and Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's possessions. Furthermore, as an eariler poster stated in the book of Isaiah, there are other overtures of "turning swords into plowshares."

However, at the coming of the Messiah, God overturned all previous convenants made in the Bible. Jesus, in his beattitudes, focused on peace and love as his message, stating that the best way to achieve one's goals were through those methods, much like the way to achieve Heaven.

Matthew 5, like a previous poster said, is the most important one. But, beware, that is so easily construed as pro-Bush message.

[thereismore]

18. You've got it. They (elders) think Bush* is on a mission of

mercy. WTH? It seems to me I have to leave the church, but I will first explain to them they have violated God's law and should repent.

[blackthorne]

35. Brave

You are very brave. A Christian in the best sense of the word.

[TreasonousBastard]

11. You don't say what church this is...

because many churches already have teachings on war.

Church teachings usually revolve around some discussion of "Just War," and Catholics, ELCA Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, some Baptists... all of them have statements on war and Iraq in particular. Quakers, Mennonites, Brethren, Bruderhofs and other peace churches have even stronger statements.

You going to the elders with Bible passages won't work nearly as well as if you go to them with statments from their own church headquarters and theologians about Christianity and war.

As an example, here's the Stony Point Declaration from the Presbyterians:

http://www.layman.org/layman/news/2004-news/stony-point-declaration.htm

I can dig around for more such statements from other denominations if you need them, but for now google "just war" and see what comes up.

[thereismore]

19. I will do that thanks. My church is non-denominational

evangelical, close to Southern Baptist but independent. We do not have a "just war" clause in the statement of faith... part of the problem. But I know the Puritans they like and I will come up with something, bet yer boots.

[TreasonousBastard]

23. You said elsewhere that you were thinking of...

leaving your church.

That's a good idea. God is unchanging, but man's understanding of God is imperfect, so finding a church you are comfortable in is the most important thing.

The denomination is not important-- it is the spirit of the individual church that counts. Most denominations have "official" statements about the things that are important to you, and you can start with their websites and literature to see how they look, or you can just stop into the local churches and talk to the members and clergy about your concerns.

You have plenty of time to search, and use the search well. I was in my late 50's before I found my place as a Quaker. The journey to get here was quite educational and spiritual.

Just don't leave your present church in anger. Think that you are not leaving them because they are wrong, or a bad place, but focus on the path you are about to take.

Good fortune on your journey.

[PatsFan2004]

12. This is a difficult issue but there are a couple of passages

that may give you wisdom under the guidance of the Lord above who knows what we need before we even ask it.

Romans 13 speaks of our relationship to governing authorities.

Matthew 28:18-20 speaks to possibly the most important mission for the church and Christians.

Both of these passages were written during a time of oppressive Roman government. The Romans were one of the most militant and violent governing authorities. The militancy of our current government pales compared to the Romans.

It is comforting that the Bible provides guidance and purpose for us.

[thereismore]

20. Romans 13 is the passage they (elders) cited as a guiding

principle. Their conclusion: support the government. I know this church is in deep sin. I will probably leave but not before I tell them to repent (in love). Thanks

[PatsFan2004]

22. Christians in the old USSR have served as a good role model

based upon the Scriptures. I have read many testimonies of their "model" citizenship from non-believing Russians. These Christians have been good workers and good citizens in order to lay the foundation for preaching the Good News of Jesus Christ. Their only disobedience to the government had to do with preaching the Gospel. They illegally smuggled Bibles and Christian literature. They held illegal "secret" worship and baptism services. And some were so bold as to publicly tell others that Jesus died for their sins (unlawful proselytizing). These were quickly arrested and sent to psychiatric hospitals.

And yes, they did not like their oppressive environment or the policies of the government, but they focused upon the mission the Lord gave to them (Matt 28). Fortunately for all of us, the Lord brought down this government as He did the Roman government. The life of Nebuchadnezzar in the Old Testament serves notice to governments that do not honor God. This powerful king was made to eat grass like an ox (Dan 4:31-34).

We as a church may resemble the Laodicean Church mentioned in the Book Of Revelation (Rev 3:14 - So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth). We have lost our focus on our good Lord and focused more on things of the world. If our focus is on heavenly things then we will love our brothers and sisters (not war) in order to win them to the kingdom. Our neighbor's eternal fate is more important than anything else. We will love Americans and Iraqis not because of * but because God loves them and gave his Son for them (John 3:16).

If your church focuses more on earthly things than heavenly things (like the Laodicean church), it may be time to move onto a church that the Lord will not spit out. Our family recently changed churches when our old church started a campaign to fill the pews by using secular business marketing tactics as opposed to Biblical practices.

Our prayers to you and all those who seek guidance in this sinful mixed up world.

[thereismore]

24. Thank you for wonderful references. Our church

is not given to business practices but all our elders are supporters of the Iraq war in some form or another. The preaching is solid, not much politicking at all, our pastor did not even endorse * by name, even though he made it clear what he thinks. All our elders
"support the action taken." They will not say the war is good. They will say that there is a lot of suffering that they abhore. They think that the US is somehow saving those people from something worse. A very hard nut to crack. My pleas are bouncing off a hard wall and so I am thinking of changing a church but I do not want to sacrifice all the other teaching (we are a very docrine-oriented church) for this one issue. Maybe I am stacking too much on this one issue, but I can't help it.

[PatsFan2004]

26. It is good that your pastor is a good preacher and steers clear of

politicking. That could cause problems for your church's tax exemption. And a good teacher is very precious.

We all have our preferences. I love the NE Patriots and Red Sox. I love politics. But they do not take precedence over serving the Lord Jesus Christ and spreading the Gospel to the whole world. My old pastor was a Yankees/Jets fan, but I chose to ignore that unimportant issue <grin>.

If God is using your church to preach the Gospel and to train men and women in the Word, then your church is doing well and will be blessed by God if not already. Remember that men and women are dying and going to eternity every day with or without salvation. When you think about eternal punishment, all else seems to pale in comparison. Personally, I don't think that being a * hater or lover will matter with one's place in the Book Of Life.

BTW, some Christians are against capital punishment because we want to give every opportunity for repentance and salvation. And some of us are glad that the USSR fell because that has facilitated missionary work there.

May God bless you and teach you His Word.

2 Tim 3:16,17 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching the truth, rebuking error, correcting faults, and giving instruction for right living, so that the person who serves God may be fully qualified and equipped to do every kind of good deed.

[grumpy old fart]

27. So all the Iraqis who die are going to hell?

"Remember that men and women are dying and going to eternity every day with or without salvation. When you think about eternal punishment, all else seems to pale in comparison".

Doesn't killing someone who doesn't know Jesus some kinda crime then?

[PatsFan2004]

28. You raise a very good theological issue.

If they do not hear, how will they believe? Therefore, many Christians oppose capital punishment, abortion, and war. However, if these Christians do not proselytize with a major emphasis, they might be considered hypocrites.

Personally, I believe that God understands the Christian predicament and has provided guidance for us to follow.

I believe that God understands that many of our are intellectually challenged and to be fair, an all-knowing and loving and holy God would provide simple (possibly six grade level or lower) instructions for us to follow. It would not make sense for God to give an unfair advantage to those of us who are geniuses or spiritual giants compared to those who flunked out of high school. So if we approach the scriptures at a less intellectual level, it might make the same sense to all of us. Sometimes, I think that sometimes we read more into the scriptures than is written down.

[grumpy old fart]

30. Say what? All I asked was: are all non xians going to hell or not?

Simple question, I thought, in light of your earlier post (#26)....

[PatsFan2004]

31. I was responding to your good point about killing non-believers.

If we as Christians ends a non-believer's life "prematurely", have we taken away any more chances for repentance. So can that be considered "criminal"?

But as to your question, shortly after the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus stated that wide is the way that leads to destruction and narrow the way that leads to life. Interpret that as you will. It seems that Jesus was not being "inclusive" or PC.

[grumpy old fart]

32. Talk to me like I'm a six year old. Are all non xians going to hell?

A simple answer to a simple question please.

[PatsFan2004]

33. According to the Bible, most people are

going to hell. Only those who have committed their life to (believe on/trust in) Jesus Christ will get eternal life John 3:16. This is not my opinion or feeling, just repeating what I have read.

[grumpy old fart]

34. ah, that's what I was looking for...personal belief....thank you....

So many fundies will talk about "the bible says this" and "the bible says that" but never own up to what they, themselves, in plain english, believe.
I hate it when, for instance, some fundie preacher cites scripture as a wink and a nod for the reader to fill in the blanks because he's too afraid to state some right wing crazy viewpoint clearly.

[carl_pwccaman]

29. Themes that might help

Jesus told Pilate that His Kingdom was NOT of This World.

He also told his followers not to lord over others the way the Greeks did (this war could be seen as reminiscent of Alexander's dreams of civilizing the barbarians with his empire).

There are passages that refer to principalities, powers of this world, that we struggle against, in a spiritual not a carnal struggle.

Then there is Galatians 5 which describes Spiritual Fruit, and 1 Cor 13, which says what love is NOT.

You can do a search for these on Blue letter Bible if you wish, these are themes I return to, again and again.

[thereismore]

21. Spurgeon on WAR

if you are following this thread, this is what I found:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance37.html
What a gem.

[renter]

25. The clock is still running...

The closes that I can find is Romans Chapter 13. See my post regarding this chapter of Romans regarding verses 1-5. Basically, Paul wrote than when government is guided by Christian morals then suffering will greatly diminished. No one on earth completely follows Christian morals, much less groups of people. For the sake of debate only, let me be briefly be a devil's advocate. Did you feel the same way when President Clinton bombed the former Yugoslavia? If you did not speak up against this, then perhaps the church elders may believe you are pursuing a political awnser and not a biblical one. I do not believe you are going to change their minds on this one. You may already know this but let me explain. President Franklin D. Roosevelt is considered among progressives as a great President. Yet, in the beginning of World War 2 he directly aided Great Britain with its war against Germany in 1940-41. This consisted of shipping and escorting military supplies to the British. Germany finally declared war on the U.S. shortly after Pearl Harbor. U.S. public attitude at that time was for U.S. neutrality in European affairs. Do you think F.D.R. lead Germany to declare war on the U.S.? We lost more men to the Germans than to the Japanese. History has pr oven that F.D.R. was right, and the American public wrong. We have yet to see Saddam Hussein's trial. Perhaps new things and ideas will be discovered. There has not been enough time yet for the whole truth of Mr. Hussein, Islamic terrorism, the war in Afghanistan and Iraq and President Bush.

[TexanDem]

37. I little late for this to reply but....

If you're still contemplating this, why don't you do a little research in the Catholic church responses to the war. I know Pope JP spoke out against and there might be some Scriptual reasons sited somewhere that you could "borrow."
Just a thought.