Why Doesn't An All-Powerful God Just Go Ahead And Get Rid Of Satan?

[arwalden]

Have Christian religious scholars/theologians ever addressed this?

[Avalux]

1. Because he created Satan.

Enjoys watching us suffer, I think. Not a very nice God. ;-)

[ThoughtCriminal]

2. Maybe he uses Satan

to sort out the Freeps.:evilgrin:

[meti57b]

3. Keeping in mind, satan is a Christian thing.

Jews don't believe in an all-powerful satan. G-d is One and the only Source of power in all existence.

[LostinVA]

8. Christians AND Muslims

[Warren Stupidity]

4. See JOB

Wonderful story. Explains what a twisted sick f* God is. I'm surprised it remains in the bible.

[wakeme2008]

5. Think Bush and bin Laden

:)

[Sperk]

6. I think it's supposed support the theory of "free will", we cannot be

free to choose "good", if there is no alternate, "evil".

[msatty99]

9. Geesh! without Satan...there wouldn't be any fun now would there?

[Zebedeo]

20. Yes

That's it.

[FM Arouet666]

23. Punishment for eating that damn apple?

God's original plan was for humankind to live in paradise, everything provided for us, lots of nudity, love, a grand utopia. But wait, god wanted to test his creation. Remember he is all knowing, all loving, omnipotent. He places the tree of knowledge in the center of utopia and forbids eating it's fruit. God also creates a serpent to taunt his grand creation. Well you know how the story goes, Eve believed the serpent, ate the damn apple, and whamo, humankind has free will and must pay the price.

A few questions.

Why didn't god create humankind in a perfect state, free of temptation?
Why did god create the serpent to tease humankind?
If freewill was the objective, why bother with Eden in the first place?
If freewill was the objective why project the notion that free will derives from disobedience of the laws of god?
Why believe in simplistic explanations of the world?
Why hasn't humankind put to rest the notion of god?

[trotsky]

26. Outstanding questions.

All of them haunt the fundie literalist worldview. But fortunately for them, they don't think too hard about 'em.

[Orrex]

31. I have at least a few answers for you...

Why didn't god create humankind in a perfect state, free of temptation?
Why did god create the serpent to tease humankind?
If freewill was the objective, why bother with Eden in the first place?
If freewill was the objective why project the notion that free will derives from disobedience of the laws of god?

The answer to all of these is that God values free will more than anything else--even more than man's salvation. Really, this is the only answer to your questions that is consistent with the bible, and it brings us to an intersting realization:

God is clearly Pro-Choice

Consider:

If he were not Pro-Choice, then he would have created us in a perfect state (if at all).
If he were not Pro-Choice, then he would have protected us from that naughty serpent.
If he were not Pro-Choice, then Eden (or some equivalent) would not have been necessary at all.
If he were not Pro-Choice but was instead Pro-Freewill, then free will wouldn't derive from disobedience of God's laws.

Although God may mourn the result of a choice made via free will, he prizes the ability to choose more than the effects of that choice.

Why believe in simplistic explanations of the world?

Because it frees the believer from the responsibility of comprehension.

Why hasn't humankind put to rest the notion of god?

Because many people feel that their lives have no purpose unless they're busy seeking the approval of a spiritual parent-figure.

[Danieljay]

7. God created humans. Humans created Satan and create their hell.

As a former theology student I could never get around the whole idea of satan and hell and being separate from God. If God is truly omnipotent and omnipresent, there is no place that God isn't. Therefore, if there was a hell, God would be there and we could NEVER be separated from God even in hell. How could an omnipoten omnipresent, the Alpha the Omega, NOT be somewhere? Even if God IS spirit there is no place in the spiritual realm that God couldn't be. The fundies can't grasp this. But it is even written in Psalms:

Psalms 139:7-8 “Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell(sheol), behold, thou art there. THATS the love of God in my opinion.

I still say that in essence we are always in the presence of God; and if we choose to create our hell God is also there and available to us to pull us out of the hell of our own making. Its really quite beautiful when stripped from the limited beliefs of the fundies.

[Warpy]

12. Buddhists say humans created it all, gods and devils, heavens

and hells. Consider the millions of gods that have existed throughout human history, each all powerful in his or her own time, all faded away and forgotten. No doubt these gods and devils will eventually fade, too, to be replaced by new gods and devils in which to invest our yearning for good and our experience with evil.

[JerseygirlCT]

19. I agree

We turn from God and that's hell. God is always waiting for us, however.

Free will is not without it's complications and responsibilities. We can choose -- therefore we have the ability to choose evil, and do. That choice takes us away from God, but we can always choose to turn back.

It is beautiful. And I aree, it's the only way to look at it that makes sense.

What I don't understand is that this concept isn't particularly difficult to grasp. Why then, the insistence on a God vs. Satan view? Why does the idea of evil as something outside us linger and thrive? How do those people justify that with the idea of an all-loving creator?

[Danieljay]

29. Because the fall (the illusion of separateness) blinds us to our Divinity.

Perhaps?

[TreasonousBastard]

10. All the time. Lots of...

theories and doctrines about the fall of Lucifer, none of which have any real basis in fact, but they are central to Jews, Christians, and Muslims. Some Eastern religions, too, in a way. There are books a-plenty about extrinsic vs intrinsic evil and just what Satan really might be and his relationship with God.

Myself, I look at the whole Satan myth as symbolic of the the dual forces of nature. God, or "good" would really have no point if there were no Satan, or "evil." Lucifer's fall was symbolic of our free will and our own dual nature. God did, after all, create a "hell" for Satan and beats him up all the time. Killing him off would have little point since he knows who's boss.

And, yeah, Satan is a handy thing to use to scare the crap out of little kids and superstitious minds.

[Spinzonner]

11. What would he do if he didn't have Satan to kick around anymore ?

[believerinchrist]

13. Because He gave humans free will, He cannot preempt our choice.

What Christ did on the cross was much more than just assure certain people entry into heaven. While he walked on the earth, he was a human being who chose God no matter what Satan threw his way. Since he never "sinned" (let go of God), Satan could not demand his death, but Christ, in order to defeat Satan's hold on the human race, chose to die. Somehow his death "legally" paid the price for the whole human race's freedom from evil. His resurrection--the ultimate victory of righteousness over evil--made a way for the human race to experience a "new birth" on an individual basis. The newness on the inside of people and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (the power of God) put believers in the position to overcome evil. It is now up to the human race to use that which God has given us to destroy evil.

God will not override human choice--if we choose to believe deceptions and make evil choices (choices that harm ourselves and others), He will not stop us. However, He is continually working with us to show the love, grace, mercy, and compassion He has for each of us (sometimes, the ones who are called by Christ's name really need to learn this). He has confidence His love will prevail.

By the way, the book of Job is one of the most misunderstood books in the Bible. To briefly summarize it, Satan was going after Job, God put limits on what Satan could do, Job was unable to overcome because of the misconceptions he had, his three friends were sadistic (and were reprimanded for their arrogance), a young man named Elihu (which means God himself) spoke truth, God spoke to Job, Job repented, and God restored what Job had lost.

[greyl]

42. Humans as intelligent as you and I have

lived happily for 200,000 years. Humans, for 3 million.

Firstly, do you believe those figures?
Second, do you believe that the last 2000 years have shown a marked improvement in global human behavior?
Finally, can you explain to me how Jesus' death and the organizations that have spread the story of salvation have been good for all of humanity?

[believerinchrist]

47. Please bear with me because I have a "unique" understanding

in that I can see the possibility that God created our world in eternity and put it motion after He finished creating. One fact many people overlook when discussing creation is that everything currently is in motion. When I realized this, I thought about how cars are manufactured--one doesn't put a car in motion until it comes off the assembly line and is finished. Time possibly would not have begun until the earth started rotating on its axis and revolving around the sun after the creation process was completed.

As far as your figures are concerned, I have some other "unique" understandings. The Bible implies in Genesis 1 that the land that appeared when God gathered the waters in one place was one land mass. Later in Genesis, the narrative of Noah (remember--many cultures related the story of a great flood)is told--many people know that it rained for forty days and nights. What many don't know is that there were continuous earthquakes and volcanoes under the depths of the seas for the same length of time (the depths were broken up). There were several consequences of this violent period that explain some of the observations scientists have made. First, if those earthquakes and volcanoes did take place, the face of the earth was dramatically changed--in places the earth could have literally turned inside out. Then, the force of movement of the water could have carried many things far away from their original "homes." Also, the heat produced from the volcanoes could have warmed the waters enough that subsequent dating methods could be skewed. (Scientists have found that water and heat throw their dating methodology out of whack). To sum up what I see, God created everything in eternity and that's why the earth looks like it is billions of years old, and the effects of those earthquakes and volcanoes have skewed the dating methods scientists use. It makes sense to me.

The last 2000 years have shown a steady (and now rapid) decline in global human behavior--think nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons of mass destruction. In fact, the Bible relates that the world would wax worse and worse. There is a war going on for the hearts and souls of the members of the human race--a war between good and evil. God is working within the hearts of individuals to help them understand the absolute power of His love, compassion, grace, and mercy.

Without the death of Jesus, Satan would still be in the position to keep the human race away from the life that God gives. Because God is interested in individuals, not groups, reaching everyone does take time. The organizations that spread the story of salvation have run the gamut of motivation and effectiveness. Many have misused the Bible and the name of Jesus Christ to spread hatred and violence; however, many others have worked hard and long to share the love of God with those around them. The way I look at it is that I myself have done things that haven't been right, so I extend grace to others. No one is better than anyone else in this world, and God loves us all.

[greyl]

48. Yes, like you, the rest of us are special.

I note that you didn't answer my three simple questions.

Furthermore, I see some attitudes toward humanity in your reply that are arrogant, ignorant, and destructive.

[believerinchrist]

50. The answers are there...

and I feel compassion, grace, and mercy for myself and for my fellow human beings.

[Midnight Rambler]

14. Because Satan is the best friend the church ever had

Fear of him keeps the people in line. He's their biggest recruiter. Their Goldstein.

[InaneAnanity]

15. Same reason why George Bush won't kill Osama Bin Laden

God uses Satan to induce fear in his followers. Without Satan, God couldn't exact the control he can with Satan.

[okasha]

16. If I'm not mistaken, Satan first appears in Job.

In that book, he's a member of Yahweh's court, in both senses--royal and judicial--of that word. He's the D.A., whose job it is to bring the shortcomings of humans before Yahweh for judgement. He can't act without a warrant, and so he must have Yahweh's permission to tempt Job. Presumably he has that same permission to tempt Jesus at the beginning of his ministry. It's only later, in the essentially gnostic Revelations and related documents, that Satan and the Serpent are identified with the forces of evil.

[varkam]

17. Problem of Evil

I think it boils down to the suffering present in the world. If there is an all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful God, then why is there evil? I think it comes down to one of two scenarios:

1)God is not all-loving (i.e. he's just kind of a dick)
2)God is not all-powerful (i.e. the suffering in the world pains him, but he's just powerless to stop it).

[dave502d]

18. I think he gave that job to us.n/t

[The Straight Story]

21. It is not that easy

We humans define 'God' as something more than god is, and less as well.


God has rules and a 'physics' he must respect, so while we think 'he' should just do something it is not that easy.

[NMMNG]

22. But then who would the Fundies have to blame their shortcomings on?

Forgive me for embezzling $10,000 from my employer. I fell prey to the wheedling of Satan :evilfrown:."

[FM Arouet666]

24. The old free will canard.

Personally, I think god is a big old pussy. I suspect others will find this statement to be offensive. Meow. :evilgrin:

[varkam]

25. Offensive?

I can't possible see why anyone would find that offensive :)

[Dorian Gray]

27. Nope.

It's never been considered before. ;)

[Name removed]

28. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Evoman]

30. Satan is the Osama bin Laden of god.

A convenient way to scare the masses and to pass off blame for His actions.

[Lilith Velkor]

32. Because then he'd have to hire a new villain

Satan works fairly cheap.

[beam me up scottie]

33. Lilith!

Where have you been?

[Lilith Velkor]

34. I've been here all along

:hi:

[beam me up scottie]

35. I know. We're bad.

I wouldn't want to be associated with me either, if I weren't me.:P

[Lilith Velkor]

36. If I were me, I wouldn't be you.

Somebody's gotta do it!

[WoodrowFan]

37. damn union rules (NT)

[rd_kent]

38. He cant!!!

Because "He" does not exist. Both are made up tales of fiction used to try and control peoples thoughts and actions. Only YOU can make satan go away, but to do that, you have to make god go away too!

[The Straight Story]

39. Because your view of god is askew

Humans see god as all powerful, yet fail to take into account that this is not so. God has rules that must be followed.

Destroying a creation has repercussions in the physics of god's universe. It is along the same line as 'why did Jesus have to die' type thing.

The human view of God is that of a programmer who can just change a line and reboot (or restart the process). A deeper view of things reveals this not to be so.

[arwalden]

40. With All Those Limitations, He's Hardly Worth Worshipping Then, Eh?

Who enforces these "rules" that God must follow? Maybe HE'S the guy (this enforcer) that we should be worshipping instead!

[The Straight Story]

41. It's not an enforcer, it's physics of god

As jews once often meditated on "Can god make a rock so large he cannot lift it?"

God is also limited by his own word - he does not change and therefore if he treats one situation in one way he also must do so in another situation where things are the same - to wit, satan sinned and was cas t out and would eventually die. Satan knew this rule first hand, lured god's new creation to sin (rebel that is) and felt happy because god must now do the same. But as was written his head was bruised (ie, ego) as god never said who would have to suffer the punishment (death) so like a good lawyer god found a loophole to make the equation balance - ie, he would come down, become one of his creations, and die.

We also see glimpses of things throughout the bible indicating god has rules 'he' has to follow, because in a deeper sense it means something to be god (ie, god does X and satan/angels do Y) - there is a definition beyond ours of what makes god, well...god.

Even in other literature we see similar (thor, odin, et al) - higher powers can do some things but not others. It has been mused that if the spiritual realm is another dimension then there are factors that must be taken into account how one interacts with the other - and one might also say deviating from such could cause more harm than good (ie, trying to help someone in this dimension takes energy and effort and going over board could cause a rift which would ripple and cause others harm).

When we define god on our terms the whole thing can look silly and lead to a lot of odd questions - kind of like defining science on our terms and limiting our ability to go beyond what we know, sometimes there is more there and it takes thinking outside of the box to see it.

Eventually we ourselves may, through science, reach a god like existence - especially if we are able to create life forms that can think. They may well call us god and not understand why we cannot do more than we can. An example might be AI - the beings living on a chip may have issues but to fix them we might need to tear out some parts which would affect the whole.

[arwalden]

43. So... you're saying that "God" is not really a god?

He's only "god-like"?

<< God is also limited by his own word - he does not change >>

On the fact of it that seems absurd... particularly when one considers the numerous and well-known contradictions in the bible.


<< When we define god on our terms the whole thing can look silly >>

Actually, what's silly is the fact that humans create gods at all.

[The Straight Story]

44. I am not sure I understand what god-like means

To ants I am god like, but what does god and god like break down to in our culture/understanding.

And I don't discount your belief, myself I used to be an atheist. I am not now. I don't really care what anyone else is :) It is nice to have civil discussions however without being insulted by religion haters.

And I don't think it is silly that we have created gods (and obviously we have). I think that is a simple and logical extension of ourselves and life. We are superior in many ways to tiny insects, a little more than general mammals, and so on - ie we are varying degrees above the other species of the planet in the evolutionary scale. Many of them may never even know it or see it, but they sure do feel the effects of us (reminds me of gravity in a way).

As we look at that which we have evolved past it is no wonder much of humankind has paused to wonder if someone/something has evolved past us. And as we have learned to create it is natural to ask if a higher power has learned better ways to create and were thusly brought about.

For me, the more science progresses the more of a case I do see for such a higher power.


And as far as contradictions in the bible - it was a book written by many people laying down what they saw and heard. Of course it is not perfect - in fact I don't think it claims to be perfect (note in Timothy it says the word of god, not the bible as it was not in existence at the time and even then, with the early books/torah/letters some scholars tend towards that which spoken by god and noted as such and not all the words in the letters).

Oh - and god being perfect? Not sure what the word perfect means. We may well have created god, but we also have created a lot of words that don't always have clear meaning outside mankind's view of the universe.

[arwalden]

45. Those Pesky Words With Limited Meanings! So many to choose from...

... but none are adequate. Damn this limited mortal language! Damn it all to HELL!

<< To ants I am god like >>

Knowing what we know about ants and their mental capacity, I think it's highly unlikely that ants regard human beings as deities.

<< but what does god and god like break down to in our culture/understanding. >>

I don't understand why you would have trouble with that. Wouldn't it be safe to say that "god-like" is something that only imitates or pretends to be an actual god?

<< And I don't discount your belief, myself I used to be an atheist. >>

Sorry, I don't have ANY "belief".

<< I don't really care what anyone else is It is nice to have civil discussions however without being insulted by religion haters. >>

Well... I hate religion. What's wrong with hating religion?

<< And I don't think it is silly that we have created gods (and obviously we have). I think that is a simple and logical extension of ourselves and life. >>

Simple, indeed.

<< We are superior in many ways to tiny insects, a little more than general mammals, and so on - ie we are varying degrees above the other species of the planet in the evolutionary scale. >>

Uh, okay.

<< Many of them may never even know it or see it, but they sure do feel the effects of us (reminds me of gravity in a way). >>

Ummm. I suppose so.

<< As we look at that which we have evolved past it is no wonder much of humankind has paused to wonder if someone/something has evolved past us. >>

Sure, we humans are a curious species.

<< And as we have learned to create it is natural to ask if a higher power has learned better ways to create and were thusly brought about. >>

This naturally follows, since we're curious.

<< For me, the more science progresses the more of a case I do see for such a higher power. >>

Really? How so?

<< And as far as contradictions in the bible - it was a book written by many people laying down what they saw and heard. >>

Silly you... it's the WORD OF GOD!

<< Of course it is not perfect >>

Says who?

<< - in fact I don't think it claims to be perfect (note in Timothy it says the word of god, not the bible as it was not in existence at the time and even then, with the early books/torah/letters some scholars tend towards that which spoken by god and noted as such and not all the words in the letters). >>

Pat Robertson, Robert Schuller, Jerry Falwell, Robert Tilton, and Billy Graham would surely disagree with you.

<< Oh - and god being perfect? Not sure what the word perfect means. >>

I know, I know... mere mortals and their primitive brains lack the capacity to understand true perfection. Thus our even more limited vocabulary cannot begin to describe the pure white perfection that is God. Blah, blah, blah.

<< We may well have created god, >>

Humans HAVE created god.

<< but we also have created a lot of words that don't always have clear meaning outside mankind's view of the universe. >>

See above.

[The Straight Story]

46. My take:

On the Ants thing:

This goes back to definitions of god/god-like. I have immense power of them and am more technologically evolved. Ants can do a few things well, but they won't be building computers or spaceships anytime soon. From that view we are god-like to ants (ie, we can do things they cannot do, probably never will, and have immense power of them should we choose to use it).

On the not-perfect thing:
I don't care what those preachers say. The bible has quite a few false teachers in it which are pretty well lambasted by others for such crap. I am not them, I don't endorse their brand of things. I don't care what they think is right or perfect.

How progress in science leads to more belief in a higher power:
Several ways, one of which is how far we have come and are able to do. If we could go back in time with what we have now our fellow humans would see us as higher beings (we can do things that they cannot and some things they had never concieved of doing).

It would be somewhat arrogant to see ourselves as the highest form of life out there. We can communicate with people without having to be anywhere near them, something the ancients could not do. A nextel phone placed in the old temple could be used to transmit our voice to the jews of old and they would think it was god talking to them.

The 'spiritual' we see in life (from angels to ghosts to etc) could be a science we have yet to grasp by those more evolved than we are. Discounting it seems wrong imho and does not lead us to delve deeper into what could be. We could be the ants without the tools of methods to see things in a deeper way. Time and evolution of science have show how little we really know.

other creatures feeling our affects without knowing of us

This seems pretty simple to me. Global warming, nuclear fallout, pollution, et al - many creatures do not need to know we exist to feel an impact from our existence - we reach out far beyond ourselves.

hating religion

Religion and science can be, and have been, mutual friends in time. From the time of the tower of babel people have dreamed of bigger things - being more than we are. That too is the message of lucifer who wanted to be more and have more. We use that desire to create, through science, that which is not naturally given us. The desire to be the god - to heal the sick, to live longer (forever), to go places and do things we could not normally do is a part of human nature. We use our abilities to become that which we say does not exist, we want to be the ideal.

Science is full of bogus people to though, it is worth noting. Big money and politics can get scientists to say all sorts of thing (second hand smoke is bad for you, no it's not, etc and so on). That does not mean we hate science, we just have to carefully look at it.

atheism a belief?

If someone believes they are the highest form of life and nothing can exist above them because it has not been proven to them I would call it a belief. We believe other species exist on other planets but have not proven that - but we are working and spending money to do so. I see books on quantum physics and the likes with a lot of intersting ideas, not to mention math and physics in general talking about other dimensions, parallel universes, and so on.

We believe it possible and look for ways to show such. Ideas once ridiculed are now facts. I don't see a belief in a higher power as silly - if we have a belief in such and we work towards it from a scientific point (as well as a personal religious one) I don't really see a problem.

Lastly
Being a democrat is a belief, like religion is a belief. We believe our ways are best and other people are wrong. We ridicule those who do not share our beliefs, we label them, and often hate them. We label people of faith as evil and idiots (sometimes) while telling them our way is the only way to salvation for the country and the world.

You have beliefs. You may not feel atheism is one, and that is fine - but you still hold beliefs and think you are right and others are wrong.

[arwalden]

49. How Is Atheism A "Belief"?

Although atheists can have "beliefs", do you also figure that atheism itself is a "belief"?

<< many creatures do not need to know we exist to feel an impact from our existence >>

But they don't see humans as "gods", do they?


<< Religion and science can be, and have been, mutual friends in time. >>

:eyes:

<< That does not mean we hate science, we just have to carefully look at it. >>

Let me know when scientists (or laymen in the name of science) start trying to pass bigoted and hate-filled constitutional amendments... or when they start to strip your rights away from you. Then you might have a case.


<< It would be somewhat arrogant to see ourselves as the highest form of life out there. >>

Certainly not. But the higher forms are not gods.

<< if we have a belief in such and we work towards it from a scientific point (as well as a personal religious one) I don't really see a problem. >>

I do. Woo-woo pseudo-science.

<< could be a science we have yet to grasp by those more evolved than we are. >>

:rofl: Classic.