So is the pope infallible or is the pope not infallible?

[burythehatchet]

:shrug:


Pope Apologizes for Uproar Over His Remarks


American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
in·fal·li·ble (n-fl-bl) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "infallible"

adj.

1. Incapable of erring: an infallible guide; an infallible source of information.
2. Incapable of failing; certain: an infallible antidote; an infallible rule.
3. Roman Catholic Church. Incapable of error in expounding doctrine on faith or morals.



The human race has truly become a joke. May our extinction arrive before the planet is destroyed for all the other wonderful species that roam the earth.

[Dogmudgeon]

1. Your answer is right there

It's number three: "Roman Catholic Church. Incapable of error in expounding doctrine on faith or morals."

Woot, there it is.

--p!

[silverweb]

2. Only when he says so.

:P

[Arugula Latte]

3. The Pope is a tremendous ass and should STFU.

Just shut up, you stuck-in-medieval-times freak. Yeah, I'm talkin' to you, Popesy.

[NorthernSpy]

8. could we please consider all the loyal Democrats who are devout...

... Catholics? Such as every single person on my own father's side of the family, for instance.

:grr:

[Name removed]

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[sandnsea]

15. Oh hell no

DUers are MUCH too sophisticated to respect someone's *gasp* religion. :eyes:

[Name removed]

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[BlooInBloo]

26. So considered. The pope should shut his power-mongering...

... bigoted ass the hell up.

[Bluerthanblue]

19. NO- he shouldn't STFU- he

has a right to speak just as we all do-
That doesn't make him "right" or "infallible" or anyone special.

We have no right to demand silence from people just because we don't want to hear them.- Let them speak thier words- and let each person decide for themself whether to agree or disagree.

I completely disagree with his statements of late, and believe he not only is wrong, but has good reason to apologize. But he also has the right to use his voice.- as do you and I.

THAT is something we are supposed to defend- and protect isn't it????? Who died and made anyone the boss of me and everyone else????:crazy:

[JVS]

22. AMEN!

[demosincebirth]

25. Well said!

Some speak of free speach only if they agree with it.
Maybe some should post over in freeperland.

[IChing]

4. So, if he is infallible then the statement of dissuasion was not a mistake

but it was an infallible apology of something said on purpose

I think we need to ask his Hitler youth teacher on that one.

[BlooInBloo]

28. Why waste your time trying to inject reason into religion?

It's like Principal Skinner said: religion has no place in school, just like facts have no place within religion.

[IChing]

30. Who made you the pope of this thread?

:evilgrin: :hi: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[BlooInBloo]

34. BURN THE HERETIC!!!

:rofl:

[malaise]

39. Getting up off the floor

This is deep:rofl: :rofl:

[ourbluenation]

5. that was my first thought. n/t

[NorthernSpy]

6. there's supposed to be a difference between speaking ex cathedra...

... and just speaking as a person. In his commentary on current events, etc, he would not be speaking ex cathedra.

:think:

At least, I think that's how it goes. I'm not religious or anything.

[pnwmom]

32. You're right. Or at least, I was taught the same thing.

[Erika]

7. Maybe he's a minimum wage worker?

[JVS]

9. If Popes start having to apologize, who'll take the job?

You already have to give up sex and kiss enough ass that the cardinals elect you, if they start demanding that you make nice, then the job has lost all its perks.

[Bluerthanblue]

13. the Pope is still a human being- and as such

is as fallible as any one of us.

The dictionary isn't the 'last word'-

It is only our record of what we have decided different words mean.

Remember, there were books that spoke of how the earth was the center of the universe.
And books that showed that the sperm from a man was 'whole' in and of itself, with no contrubution from the mother, other than to be a 'nest'.

And there were books that described different methods of (torture) to determine if a person was a witch, (all of them fatal, because if by chance the person survived, they were then put to death).

There is no such thing as an infallable human.

No matter how we'd love to believe we can achieve that ourselves.

[sandnsea]

14. Does anybody really give an honest shit about the answer?

Because it's been posted numerous times here at DU. Infallibility pertains to very specific statements and only regarding basic doctrine of the Church.

Do people really think they're all that clever taking easy shots like this at other peoples religion?

[JVS]

18. Actually I have some interest in it, but not on this particular issue.

Frankly I don't care what the Pope says about other religions. They're his competition and I don't consider it reasonable to expect him to give his approval of their beliefs.

What I am interested in is the tendency to invoke the Pope as an authority that I see going around when people find themselves in agreement with the Pope, or when people agree with him on certain issues but not on others. What I am trying to get to here is: When is the statement of the Pope authoritative for Catholics and when isn't it? I've heard a good deal about speaking "ex Cathredra", but sadly very few have explained to me when this happens and some have even gone so far as to say that in the history of the RCC this has only been done twice.

[sandnsea]

37. Because it rarely happens

Infallibility is only relevant to Catholics, and is then only relevant to religious doctrine. This has been explained so many times on DU that I question those who have been here for a length of time and pretend to still not understand. I don't mean you, but there are certainly a number of people who revel in these kinds of cheap shots. Really though, they actually just look like fools to any educated person who bothered to learn about religion for the pure sake of learning. It's particularly ironic coming from people who ridicule others for their 'disdain for education'.

As to the Pope speaking on any worldy topic, he's relevant because he is the spiritual leader of 18% of the world's population, the largest religion. And I think to many religious people, if not most, you don't get to the position of Pope without some sense of spirituality and care for humanity. That doesn't make any Pope perfect, but it certainly makes their words as valid as any other world leaders.

[TreasonousBastard]

21. Alas, they do....

some in the peanut gallery never pass up the chance to trash religion.

The actual doctrine of the Pope speaking "Ex Cathedra" is as irrelevant as the Catholic Church's agreeing with us on many, if not most, things and having been one of the Democratic Party's major suppliers of money, talent, workers, voters, and elected officials. Do the same people agree with these statements when they are made about Jews?

But, why let facts and history confuse you when your mind is made up and a cheap shot at an easy target is to be had?

[JohnLocke]

16. Short answer: only when speaking ex cathedra. Long answer below.

In Roman Catholic theology, Papal infallibility is the dogma that the Pope is preserved from error when he solemnly promulgates, or declares, to the Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals.

This doctrine was defined dogmatically in the First Vatican Council of 1870. In Catholic theology, papal infallibility is one of the channels of the Infallibility of the Church. Papal infallibility does not signify that the Pope is impeccable, i.e., that he is specially exempt from liability to sin.

Statements by a pope that exercise papal infallibility are referred to as solemn papal definitions or ex cathedra teachings. These should not be confused with teachings that are infallible because of a solemn definition by an ecumenical council, or with teachings that are infallible in virtue of being taught by the ordinary and universal magisterium. For details on these other kinds of infallible teachings, see Infallibility of the Church.

According to the teaching of the First Vatican Council and Catholic tradition, the conditions required for ex cathedra teaching are as follows:
1. "the Roman Pontiff"
2. "speaks ex cathedra" ("that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority...")
3. "he defines"
4. "that a doctrine concerning faith or morals"
5. "must be held by the whole Church" (Pastor Aeternus, chap. 4.)

For a teaching by a pope or ecumenical council to be recognized as infallible, the teaching must make it clear that it is definitive and binding. There is not any specific phrasing required for this, but it is usually indicated by one or both of the following: (1) a verbal formula indicating that this teaching is definitive (such as "We declare, decree and define..."), or (2) an accompanying anathema stating that anyone who deliberately dissents is outside the Catholic Church. For example, in Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII's infallible definition regarding the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, there are attached these words: "Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which We have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith."

An infallible teaching by a pope or ecumenical council can contradict previous church teachings, as long as they were not themselves taught infallibly. In this case, the previous fallible teachings are immediately made void. Of course, an infallible teaching cannot contradict a previous infallible teaching. Also, due to the sensus fidelium, an infallible teaching cannot be subsequently contradicted by the Catholic Church, even if that subsequent teaching is in itself fallible.

It is the opinion of the majority of theologians that the canonizations of a Pope enter within the limits of his infallible teaching authority. Therefore, it is considered certain by this majority of Roman Catholic theologians, that such persons canonized are definitely in heaven with God. However, this opinion of infallibility of canonizations has never been definitively taught by the Magisterium. Other theologians, even those of earlier times, refer to this majority opinion, as a "pious opinion, but merely an opinion." Before the height of Middle Ages, saints were created not by the Bishop of Rome, but by the bishops of the local dioceses, confirming or rejecting the acclamation of the people calling for declaration of sanctity of a particular Christian person who passed away "in the odor of sanctity." In Roman Catholic teachings, diocesan bishops do not themselves possess the charism of infallibility, leaving these early Church canonizations without certainty of infallibility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

[StraightDope]

17. No offense, but...

"May our extinction arrive..." I wholeheartedly disagree.

Humanity has too much potential for growth, love, and beauty for me to wish for its eradication. I refuse to let the evil, corrupt side of human nature extinguish my hope for our species.

[Fire Walk With Me]

23. This pope is part of the New World Order.

Check his actions to see if they undermine peace and tolerance, increasing the inevitable clash between Us and Them, for the benefit of New World Order.

[mykpart]

24. It's a Catch-22.

If the pope says something that is true, then that is an infallible statement. If he says something that is not true, then it is not an infallible statement. And this was told to me by a Catholic priest in good standing.

[Rosemary2205]

29. He's just another guy with a microphone.

While I disagreed with John Paul 2 quite often, and find his apathy toward child molesting priests incredibly offensive, he did try to use that world stage visibility for making a change toward the good, overall. I respected him for that. What Benedict does is still to be seen, although I suspect he sees his role as pulling the renegade Americans back in a hard line.

[pnwmom]

31. Catholic doctrine says he's almost always FALLIBLE.

According to Catholic theology, a pope is infallible only if he speaks "ex cathedra" -- in other words, declares a certain doctrine to be infallible. In 2,000 years of Church history, this has occurred three times.

[TechBear_Seattle]

33. He is (considered to be) infallable when AND ONLY WHEN ...

... he is speaking ex cathedra as the (supposed) successor of Saint Peter. The limitations are that: a) he must formally declare that he is speaking "from the throne," which requires abiding by a number of protocols and with the support of the Curia, and b) such pronouncements can only be made with regards to the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

I seem to remember that the pope has spoken "infallably" only three or four times since the doctrine was first introduced, back in the late 1800s.

[LeftyMom]

35. Papal infalibility only applies to Ex Cathedra remarks

Very very few papal statements are considered infallible.

[leftofthedial]

36. he was only infallible

when he was in the Hitler Youth.

Since 1945, he's been a "former" Nazi.

[ShortnFiery]

38. Fallible, most Catholics would agree - we've had some evil Popes

in our long history. :(

[Recursion]

40. In theory, only on matters of doctrine while ex cathedra

Pope Adrian VI ("The Barbarian Pope" or "The Protestant Pope" -- he was Dutch, and had sympathies leaning towards the then-forming Reformation during his early 16th-century pontificate) stated that the Pope could be fallible; in dealing with this uncomfortable fact, later popes came up with the doctrine of speaking ex cathedra, as a sign of when they were supposed to be considered infallible.

The doctrine of absolute infallibility of the pope is an innovation from the 19th century; as the Holy See became increasingly politically irrelevant it sought to become more spiritually relevant. Someone who does not believe in it (even as a Roman Catholic) can simply point out that the doctrine itself was expounded by a pope, and therefor is as fallible as Adrian VI said any pope could be.