George W Bush and the Republicans have failed in Iraq.

[kentuck]

It is a disastrous failure. It's time for the people to face that fact. The latest escalation by Bush should be denounced in every quarter. They have failed.

Much like the aftermath of an earthquake, there is no easy way to clean up the mess afterwards. The military and the national guard can prevent looting but they cannot rebuild what has been destroyed by the earthquake. Iraq is in much the same condition. There is no military solution.

Americans have given all the chances in the world to Mr Bush and every time, he has failed. Now he wants to sacrifice a few more American lives in his failed adventure. It is time to re-deploy, withdraw, get the hell out, slip out the back Jack, no need to coy Roy,or whatever you wish to call it...

[GOTV]

1. While I agree, we should still listen to the president's plan

He may be proposing additional steps separate from the escalation which we would support.

If he proposes funds for the Iraqi government to do its own security and reconstruction, that part we may want.

It's easier to push a rock downhill. If we can get behind part of his plan, we will appear more cooperative while standing firm on not throwing more blood on the ground.

[atreides1]

3. You're joking right?

Why do you think this current plan of his will work? Are you basing it on the great success of his previous plans regarding Iraq?

I'd rather be less cooperative with this sociopath and his minions, besides maybe it would be better if he applied some of that security and reconstruction planning to places like New Orleans?

[GOTV]

4. You should read my post before responding to it.

I never said this current plan will work.

Feel free to try again though.

[ProfessorGAC]

5. I'll Try

atreides didn't say you suggested his current plan would work. He asked a question, that you didn't answer. So i'll repeat it, and add some more:

What is the basis for your assumption that this new plan will have any elements that will work when, to date, every one of their ideas has failed?

What is the basis for your belief that suddenly they'll have a good idea that would be palatable to progressives? The palatability of everything they've done so far?

What is the basis for your belief that they will strigently alter course when they've yet to admit that they have screwed this thing up since the first day they discussed it?

Now, try reading what i've asked. I'm accusing you of nothing and ascribing nothing to you that wasn't in your first post on this thread, that encouraged all to listen to the new plan.

I would like to know from whence your optimism springs.
The Professor

[GOTV]

6. Nope, you didn't get it either.

"What is the basis for your assumption that this new plan will have any elements that will work"

I do not assume that it will have elements that will work. I am merely open to the possibility.

"What is the basis for your belief that suddenly they'll have a good idea that would be palatable to progressives? "

I did not say that I believe that. I'm open to the possibility.

"What is the basis for your belief that they will strigently alter course "

I never said they would alter course.

"I'm accusing you of nothing and ascribing nothing to you"

You are ascribing assumptions and beliefs which I do in fact not have as I've enumerated above.

What I said is "He may be proposing additional steps separate from the escalation which we would support." "He may be". "may be". I didn't say "will". I didn't even say "likely to". Then you and the last poster go on about "what makes me think they will..." and respond to what you think I said. I agree it's easier to respond to that than what I actually said, but it's not a valid response.

With that said...

It's entirely possible that (not definitely, not necessarily likely), in addition to his bad idea of escalation he may say something like he wants to spend money to build hospitals, or schools, or job training centers. He has said, in the past that he wants things that we here also want such as he says he wants Iraqi's to assume the responsibility for the defense of their nation. I'm not saying he *really* wants that or that he will be successful or that his chosen actions will actually result in that goal. I'm only saying that he SAYS things that we agree with (and if you would stick to what I say I could spend less time writing about what I didn't say)

Those statements that we agree with (build a school, Iraqi's securing their own country) could form a basis by which we Dems do what we want while looking like we're compromising and working with the president.

If he states absolutely nothing, no plan or goal, to which we would agree, then still, we've at least heard him out.

[bryant69]

2. It's depressing that the surge is disliked by

Congress, including many members of his own party, and by the American people and yet will still probably happen. Depressing.

Bryant
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