Some opinions on DU really bug me. So much so that I've realized...

[FormerRepublican]

...I must be very careful about anything labeled "Democratic" and keep some political independence. I'm left of center, but I'm not way out in the boonies on the left. I've come to realize that "Democrat" can mean anything from the center to la la land left, and so I must be careful to make choices based on my own ideals, rather than just accept anything with a (D) label.

Some things that get me spitting fire:

Immigration, Patriotism and nationalism (or lack thereof), making excuses for criminals like Pedophiles, and a few others.

It doesn't really matter which issues get me thinking - hey, I need to vote my conscience here, not toe the party line. But it is a growing realization that I need to stay independent and pick and choose what I will and won't support based on my own ideals rather than follow any crowd.

But I do feel that Democratic Underground is a very good education regarding the spectrum of ideals under the Democratic tent! It's great to see such a broad range of ideas (even if I don't agree with some of them).

[babylonsister]

1. Your line, "It doesn't really matter which issues get me thinking-"

says it all. You're THINKING, not toeing any line, and that's one great benefit to being a Democrat!:toast:

[CanonRay]

7. We have our wackos, they have theirs!

[babylonsister]

17. But 'their'

wackos don't bother thinking, sadly, they just keep on keeping on, not recognizing they've been 'had' by their government.
It's okay to change your mind if you've been deceived, as this whole country has with this cabal.

[Redstone]

2. Someone's making excuses for pedophiles?

I'm sure glad I didn't see that. Big tent and all, but that would be a bit beyond the pale.

Redstone

[harpo]

5. ditto here

[Deep13]

6. I tried to explain what causes it once...

...but was not attempting to excuse the behavior. I have had to prosecute a few and it is important to "know thy enemy."

[killbotfactory]

30. People often confuse explaining behavior with excusing it

Quite annoying, really.

[Redstone]

50. Oh man, that must have been unpleasant, to say the least. I absolutely

understand that you have to "know your enemy" in your line of work; I don't envy you having to do that kind of research.

It's good we have dedicated people like you in this country.

Redstone

[Deep13]

53. I was just speaking in general terms.

All pedophiles were sexually abused as children, though not all victims become pedophiles. The age of their victims indicates the age they were when abused. They have other things in common, too. Pedophiles, like many sex offenders, think like predators. They plan ahead and cultivate hunting grounds by being pillars of the community in every other aspect of their lives.

[FormerRepublican]

54. This is the only part I disagree with:

"All pedophiles were sexually abused as children"

Not true in all cases. There are a lot of child molesters who molest repeatedly for years who were not sexually abused as children. Sometimes they have other emotional issues that make them prefer children, sometimes they just use children to resolve power issues, sometimes kids are just convenient and not as much work as real relationships. Perhaps you might define that as not a true pedophile, but if their preference is victimizing children for whatever reason...

:shrug:

[Deep13]

59. I only knows what the AG's office tells me.

I'm no expert.

[endarkenment]

12. This is a classic rhetorical trick.

You create a grab bag of real issues and then toss in the killer - pedophilia in this case. Now anyone opposing whatever the OP was talking about is supporting pedophilia. I'm not sure if the OP even is aware of this simple trick, but it is a classic one.

[warrens]

27. I haven't seen anyone defend pedophiles

Perhaps some have said that killing them would be wrong (see news out of SC today), but that's about it.

[musical_soul]

31. Agreed.

Pedophiles suck. They don't deserve any sympathy.

[ScreamingMeemie]

3. Yaaay! I was going to yell at you until your last sentence.

;) What cracks me up is when "other websites" try to broad brush a Democrat. What they don't realize is that I am most likely the Soccer Mom that lives next door and hands out full sized candy bars to their kids on Halloween. It is good to have you here. I don't follow the crowd. I don't support Democrats the don't support my ideals. I refuse to campaign ever again for a candidate that "lets me down". A lot of people don't like that about me. Oh well. :hi:

[BootinUp]

4. You're not alone. heh.

And I am not even a former republican.

This is a site where you can have spirited debates about whether Bill Clinton or Milosevic was the real war criminal.

[Sammy Pepys]

8. There's a wide range of opinions here...

...it did take me a little while to get used to some things here, but I'm coming around.

[msongs]

9. exactly right IMO and

the loudest screamers are most likely the ones that are actually against what they scream about. Psychologically things like
the biggest gay bashers are the deepest closet cases, etc. Or the ones claiming you are racist are likely relfecting their own racism, etc.

lots of diversie opinions...OPINIONS...here and that is good.

lotta touchy issues with many valid views, like this whole immigration thing, where the thing to look for is the hidden agendas.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/impeachbush.htm

[Solly Mack]

10. Nationalism is just a word for I hate everyone that's not like me

and my country is better than your country, so there (neener, neener, neener)

Such thinking doesn't exactly leave room for much growth - nationalism stems from prejudice,ignorance, and false feelings of superiority.

So, if there is a "lack thereof" of nationalism at DU - Wonderful!


Who, exactly, has made excuses for pedophiles? Got examples? Cause I'd be more than happy to have a few words with them.

[Katherine Brengle]

38. Bingo --

Patriotism: (n.) Love of and devotion to one's country.

Nationalism: (n.) 1: love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it 2: the doctrine that your national culture and interests are superior to any other

Now, that said, I think that both have inherent dangers. Nationalism is clearly more dangerous to independent thought and international compassion than patriotism, but giving up any shred of your independence for a larger collective has its pitfalls.

I think it is good to love one's country--but there is a thin line between love and obsessive devotion.

[Solly Mack]

41. I agree

so I avoid both :)

[DemonFighterLives]

11. So what's the problem?

:nopity:

[sweetheart]

13. your political compass?

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

Skinner once wrote an excellent essay a coupla years
back on the 3 (?) groups of persons on DU, and i really
liked his categories... but i only remember one was sorta
called "libertarian".. i wonder if anyone recalls.

[glitch]

14. No Democrat agrees with every other Democrat on every issue.

There is a saying about Greeks: any two get together and there are three (or more) sides argued. I like that about us.

I missed the offending post, but most likely this is what caused the problem:
explaining pedophilia (or any other atrocity) is not the same thing as excusing it.

To repeat: a reason is not an excuse.

[mmonk]

15. Welcome to reality.

People have different opinions no matter how people try to broad brush stroke others.

[BurtWorm]

16. Making excuses for pedophiles? Who does that?

Most pedophiles are Republicans.

[mmonk]

23. Never seen that and I've been around here for awhile.

Could it be some defending the Catholic church against some attacks? I really can't figure that part of the post out. I must not have come on here the day someone stood up for pedophiles.

[FormerRepublican]

29. There was a thread on DU a month or two ago...

...that debated whether or not it was OK to "expose" pedophiles on some TV show. In the course of the debate over the issue, some opinions were expressed that were pretty sympathetic to the pedophiles (and not just about the TV show). Part of it was along the lines of gay adults have to sleep with teenage kids or teenagers won't be able to have experiences because there are not enough gay kids in high schools for them to become involved with or some such. Part of it was just plain excuses.

I was a victim. I live with some pretty rough consequences. I have no sense of humor when it comes to the issue, if you know what I mean. So what someone else might let pass will totally push me over the edge.

I found the whole thread to be pretty offensive and I had to take a break from DU for a few days.

It's one of the issues that gets me riled.

[mmonk]

34. That makes sense.

[sojourner]

35. I've been hanging 'round these parts for quite a while...

have never seen such comments (doesn't mean you didn't -- though a link to the thread would certainly be helpful). Why get upset with a forum where ideas are exchanged, opinions put forth AND defended, when what you actually took offense to was the POV expressed (and those expressing it, which HAD to be a minority because no matter what kind of shit is spread around, Democratic values do NOT include pedophilia).

[FormerRepublican]

39. Heh. Why get upset about a pro-pedophile POV when you've been a...

...victim? It's kind of inevitable, I think.

It's kind of hard not to, especially when you have all kinds of psychological consequences, such as PTSD. The perp, of course, got off without any consequences simply because he denied it ever happened. And he got off that way more than once, so his first victim wasn't his last... After you see that kind of thing, you get a bit of an attitude about the issue. A whole lot more of them get away with it then ever get caught and prosecuted.

Sorry, I'm not going to look up the thread that I found offensive. Read up on PTSD avoidance if you need to understand why...

[sojourner]

46. though i'm not a victim of pedophilia per se i "get it" about

PTSD. Still, your comment seemed to imply that DU included a substantial number of pedophilia apologists. Could be that your sensitivity amped up your perception of how many that might be? My sincerest good wishes for you in your efforts to "recover" from the abuses you suffered. (We never fully eliminate the effects of traumatic and abusive events from our lives...we just find ways to grow stronger so that the effects don't continue to dominate our lives, IMO)

[FormerRepublican]

51. "Could be that your sensitivity amped up your perception of how many that

...might be?"

Yes. But given my first hand knowledge of the horrific consequences of those acts (both through my own experiences, and the experiences of others like me whom I've known personally), and the potential that those acts might increase in volume through ANY societal acceptance, I think even one person making excuses is unacceptable.

Your view on this may vary, of course.

WRT recovery, I think for most folks in my situation, it's a day to day thing. You do the best you can each day. PTSD is the very devil to live with because I haven't found anything that minimizes it for me - it does what it wants, when it wants. It makes me fear for all our soldiers coming home after Iraq and having PTSD flare into full blown glory (or nightmare)...

And the stupid feds who put our returning soldiers through hell have no clue that what they're doing makes it even harder for soldiers to endure the depression, suicidal feelings, and all the other craziness you go through as you try to get a handle on PTSD. They make me so angry that I wish I could ship some of THEM to Iraq to get a nasty case of PTSD!

[sadiesworld]

62. I remember the thread quite clearly.

While there may not be a "substantial number" of pedophilia apologists here at DU, a vocal few can also be quite annoying (even to those of us who have not suffered at the hands of an abuser).

[mmonk]

36. Also,

pedophilia isn't a gay issue.

[FormerRepublican]

40. Agreed.

What two consenting adults get up to is their business. When one of those involved is a child, that's something else. Same rules whether you're gay or not.

[mmonk]

42. My patience on child abuse is pretty nil.

Whether it be physical, sexual, or pyschological. I'm for stringent laws on the issue and for it to be extraordinary when in commission with other crimes as well. I'm still for fair trials and due process though.

[lukasahero]

43. The real problem is who is defining "pedophile"...

I've seen the threads you are referencing and I am bothered by them as well. What I've noticed though is that it seems to be dependent on one's definition of what a child is. You and I seem to agree that a young teen is a child. There are many here who do not agree with that assessment and they may even be the ones in this thread claiming they've never seen anyone defend pedophilia here before. It's all in the definition.

PS - I am sorry for what you lived through. I can absolutely relate to personal experiences pushing buttons that others may find acceptable.

[FormerRepublican]

49. For me personally, I feel there are some experiences that a child...

...is simply not emotionally equipped to handle. I think a teenager is still too young to deal with some of the emotional aspects of intimate relationships. Relationships between two kids of the same age often can avoid a lot of problems that come up in relationships between adults and children. The power differences can really mess with a kids head. I think some people fail to realize that the power difference does make a very big difference in how events are internalized, and thus the psychological consequences. Between two kids, either can say no and mean it without seriously negative consequences. But in an adult-child relationship, can a child say no to the adult without negative consequences?

There's also an expectation that once you become an adult, you accept responsibility for your actions and the ethics behind them. Irresponsible behavior in a teenager is a lot more understandable than irresponsible behavior in an adult who should know better. And the height of adult irresponsibility is to get intimately involved with a kid.

Then there's the issue that power itself can be perceived as force in a relationship between a child and an adult. No matter how you might want to explain it away, a teenager is never going to be an equal in a relationship with an adult.

This is in relationships between consenting parties only. In many cases, it's the adults who consent and the children who don't. Then the psychological damage to the child gets really ugly.

Because the consequences for the child (including teenagers) is just about always bad, varying only in degree, IMO there is no moral justification for adult-child intimate relationships, even if both are supposedly consenting.

In many cases, the "relationship" is rape every bit as brutal as any a grown woman might endure. How can a child be expected to deal with the consequences of that? And be forced to endure continued association with the rapist because he(she) can't or won't be prosecuted? Yet, that's what kids often live through...

It's because of what kids often have to endure to survive that I have no sympathy at all for pedophiles.

[FlaGranny]

52. Were those arguments made by

"regulars" here? That sounds like a right-wing anti-gay talking point, rather than pro-pedophilia. Sounds to me like an infiltrator trying to start trouble by making it seem that gays are pedophiles.

One thing you've got to be careful of around here is people from freeperland trying to be "clever."

[FormerRepublican]

55. That's a question I can't answer.

I only know the thread was offensive.

[FlaGranny]

60. I can't answer it either, but

it is a familiar tactic. Take everything with a grain of salt and remember there are people here who do everything in their power to disrupt. Saying something like "teenage gays need pedophils because there aren't enough teenage gays" just seems like an attempt to smear, in my opinion. It says, by implication two things which we KNOW are not true and are right-wing talking points: saying that there aren't enough teen gays implies that gays are made and not born; and, in the same sentence implies that pedophiles are mostly gays. So, all I'm saying is to always keep stupid statements like that in perspective - most likely they are attempts to make DU look bad, as are many of the really far out, far lefty type things.

[Rude Horner]

18. With this many registered members

we're always going to have things we don't all agree on. To me, that's fine. We're all independent thinkers, and I'd rather have that than mindless sheep.

That being said, a couple comments:

I don't think I've ever seen anybody making excuses for pedophiles. I don't claim to read every thread, but the few threads I've seen it mentioned, I haven't seen anybody defend it.

And as far as patriotism goes, I think it all depends on the defintion of patriotism. Some people think patriotism is blindly waving the flag and supporting the government, right or wrong. Some people think patriotism is not questioning. I believe that most people on this board are true patriots. We love our country so much that we hate to see what is happening to it. Patriotism isn't blind loyalty. It's understanding that the principles that this country was founded on are more important than any president or administration.

Or as someone much smarter than me said: I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag

[NNN0LHI]

19. DU makes us think whether we want to or not

Thats why we are here.

Don

[johnnie]

20. It didn't take me long to figure that out when I came here

Of course I realized before I came here that this is a big world and there are a lot of people on it. Not everyone is going to think exactly like I do (That would be a bit too scary). One thing I do like about DU though is that we are all on the "left" and the opinions vary considerably unlike most of the "right" who seem to fall in line way too easy.

I try to stay out of the real hot issues here because I don't like getting into arguments on the internet, it doesn't really work that well. But I do like reading other's opinions and more than once I have looked at something a little different than I previously did because someone here made a point that I never really thought about.

[Strong Atheist]

25. Sensible post. WAY too sensible for GD. nt.

[Fleshdancer]

21. You're not alone

There are issues I'm more left on than others but this is after researching and contemplating all sides of an issue. I don't understand why anyone would toe a party line regardless of what political party they tend to relate to. I can't stand treating political parties like a favorite sports team and I will not be loyal to a party just for the sake of beating the "other team". This goes against my personal ethics and knee jerk reactions from some (ex: then you want Bush to win!) won't change the way I approach my concept of Democracy.

I appreciate the different views expressed on Democratic Underground. I wish all heated debates could remain civilized, but with almost 90,000 registered users, I know how impossible that is.

[tomp]

22. please define "la la land left"...

...and while you're at it, try defining "center".

and while you're at it, give us a few details of what your "former republican" handle is about, eh?

would you care to own up to your own responsibility for the mess we're in?

i'm 52 years old. i've never known a time when being a republican could have been considered a reasonable view. and frankly, i've never been too impressed with democrats either.

if that's la la land, so be it. just don't blame me for the mess we're in. "la la land" has never been tried here.

[CJCRANE]

24. Making excuses for pedophiles...?!!

Since when was that a plank of "Democratic" principles?

[ugarte]

26. Please, not another "liberals love pedophiles" slander...

You destroy your own credibility with that one.

[leesa]

28. I can imagine what is "lala land left" to someone like yourself. But at

least you have begun to think. In a few years, lalaland left may feel quite right when you've done more and more studying and learning. Glad you have been awakened.

[Nabia2004]

32. Not everyone is a "Democrat" here - nt

[Deep13]

33. There is a difference between DU and the Democratic Party.

People on this website are largely the hard-core activists who are generally more ideological than the typical Democratic voter or even polititian. When I first joined this website it was with the understanding that it would be a place to discuss practical matters concerning attempts to elect D candidates and as an alternative to the rabid uber-liberals on the smirkingchimp.com. Sadly, this has not occurred and I have even been told not to mention one particular topic.

I'm the most liberal person in my family and yet feel like a reactionary with this group.

I think illegal "immigrants" should be sent back to where ever and that improvements to border security needs to be made to keep them, drug runners and terrorists out.

I'm generally against gun control, though there are reasonable exceptions. I shoot a S&W 686 every weekend.

Drugs: bad, should stay illegal. I have to say I'm a bit squishy about marijuana since no one has ever died from it and there is a good amount of evidence that it really helps some patients with serious diseases. Maybe it should be available with a prescription.

I believe in protecting American workers and environmental and safety standards from economic forces working to undermine it.

I am generally happy with this state's criminal code. It's penalties are generally reasonable and are only really harsh when the defendant is exceptionally cruel or is making a living off crime. Changes I would like to see are a midrange assalt offense between misdemeanor assault (max. 6 mo.) and felony assault (max. 10 yrs.). If there is an injury that falls short of maining, there should be like a mandatory jail sentence for the misd. assault or else make it a low grade felony. Also, I don't think tresspassing should be a crime unless the tresspasser knows he is not welcome. On the other hand, the mandatory life sentence for kiddie rape should be extended to victims under 13 rather than under 10.

I make no excuses for pedophiles, but that does not make the topic off limits for intelligent discussion on its cause and nature.

I think the best environment for children is a married, nuclear family with frequent contact with other relatives, preferably under the same roof. As a practical matter, however, I appreciate that this is rare and that just about anything is a big improvement over foster care or an abusive household.

ON THE OTHER HAND

I don't see why it is necessary to make children take a loyalty oath in school. As a child, I only pretended to say it because I believed that administration-sponsored prayers are not appropriate in public school. (The "under God" part makes it a prayer.)

Christianity has done more harm than good, though people have an absolute right to be religious.

CAFE standards should apply to passenger trucks.

Right-wing corporations own most widely available media and use it for their purposes. Since the right to free speech is in reality the right to be heard, this fact means we do not have free speech in this country.

Gore won. Kerry probably also won because the Sec. of State in Ohio (who was campaigning for Bush) did not supply Democratic areas with enough voting machines. Maybe I would wait four hours in the rain to vote, but most people won't. Still, many did. Also, the CEO of Diebold which makes the machines promised to deliver OH for Bush.

[mainegreen]

37. good post! nt

[Deep13]

45. thanks

[cry baby]

44. I find it strange that you didn't expect a wide range of ideas here.

The right has a wide spectrum as well, from just right of center to the right wingnuts that think gays adopt children just so they can molest them.

As a poster said upthread, welcome to reality.

BTW, I read this board hours per day (yes, I have a life) and have never seen anyone excuse pedophilia.

On edit: I missed your explanation of the pedophile thing. Please understand that one or two people that believe a certain way goes against what the other 87,000 people here believe regarding that issue. I understand why that would be a sensitive issue for you, however.

[johnnie]

48. Not to disrespect the OP

But coming from the Republican party, I don't think you *would* be ready for a wide range of ideas. I'm glad that the original poster is here and I mean no disrespect for them at all, but I can understand being a little taken aback when dealing with republicans for so long and then coming here to a left thinking website.

[FormerRepublican]

56. I think you're right on that.

I found the lock step marching on the right to be very disturbing. But the vast variety of views on the left takes a bit of getting used to, too. Still prefer the left to the goosestep on the right, tho.

[johnnie]

57. Good, I'm glad you didn't take me the wrong way

I agree with you 100% about it getting used to. But I would take the "la la land" of the left to the "whack-job" of the right any day of the week.

[FormerRepublican]

58. LOL! I agree with you.

[dogday]

47. As long as someone does not insult me or mine,

I have no problems with the variety of opinions on this board.. Some days it is harder than others when you read how people feel and think, how can they feel that way? But it is their opinion and my opinion is no more important than theirs....

[DanCa]

63. I agree with you dogday 100 percent.

I try to treat others the way I want to be treated. I'll deffend myself if I am attacked but I don't believe in putting people down to prove my point.

[DanCa]

61. I don't toe the company line on lot of things but I am a proud Dem.

This is the only party that effectively fights against the privitization of social security, for disabilty rights and for stem cell research. I do realize that people have differences of opinions though and thats cool this is America. I don't think its cool to insult anybody for showing a streak of independence lets not become as zombified as the right wings. Remember if everyone drove on the same color light we'd have a zillion traffic accidents.

[FormerRepublican]

64. I agree. The left have far more to feel good about than the right do.

What Republicans have done to the poor (and heck, the middle class) in this country is nothing short of appalling. Lord, sometimes I wonder how those cretins can live with themselves after what they've done. I hear them talk about all the good they've done and I want to fall off my chair laughing - what good?

[DanCa]

65. What irks me about GOP is the false religiousity

I mean cmon the response to katrina alone should be enough to wake up the Kool Aid drinkers.
It's maddening. I think I would like to get a t shirt that says< " it's the GOP not GOD stupid."
Former Republican dont let some of the kids on the net get you down. I disagree with some of your points (just as I know your probably disagree with some of my views) but I know your a good guy. I gotcha back. :hug:

[FormerRepublican]

66. Personally, I think the right wing has been brainwashed.

Maybe Boosh I engaged in a little extra-curricular activity from his days at the CIA, eh?

Thanks for the nice comments and right back atcha. But THIS former Republican is a girl, not a guy. ;) Hah - caught ya! LOL!

[DanCa]

69. LOL.

Yup you got me :D Thanks you made me laugh today. I have the Wed Blues and I needed that.

[peacetalksforall]

67. I'll pick and choose from your posting - who makes excuses for

pedophiles?

[FormerRepublican]

70. See my post #16 above.

[peacetalksforall]

68. Self-delete.