I was RAPED years ago.

[demgurl]

I was raped when I was in my late teens. It effected me in ways I never dreamed possible. I was in such a state of denial that a week later my mind had successfully blocked everything about that party. I could not even recognize a female who I had interacted with most of the night and who had driven me there and back! My mind would not allow me to remember any of the faces of people who had been there. It is amazing what it will do to protect you.

I could have gone to the cops and I should have but I did not. I couldn't bring myself to go to the cops because I knew I would be questioned. How much did I have to drink? What was I wearing? How long had I known this guy? I knew there would be doubters and I could not face that.

I bring all of this up because of the chattering going on back and forth about the alleged Duke rape. As a former rape victim, I do want to find out if the lady is lying. If she is then she s doing a great disservice to rape victims everywhere. When you lie it makes it that much harder for rape victims to speak out since they doubt they will be believed.

At the same time, rushing to judgment and defending the alleged perpetrators does nothing to bolster how I feel about this system either. I understand that the recently released report seemed to support the fact that the men may not have raped the woman but instead of letting it all play out, people seem quick to rush to judgment.

I understand this is a discussion board and I do not wish to keep anyone quiet but you should all know how a subject, as delicate as this one, effects those who have been raped. All of these attacks have confirmed, for me, the bias a lot of society has and had confirmed that if that awful thing ever happens to me again, I still will not report it! my stomach churns a little every time I see a Duke titled thread. Heck, I just wolfed down a nice bit of ice cream while writing this thread. This subject is still very emotional for me as evidenced by my binge eating.

I do not wish to curb anyone's posts but if you could please just keep in mind that other's may be impacted by what you write, it would be appreciated. Thanks!

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

1. Thanks for this, something people needed to hear.

[demgurl]

56. Thanks, Mayberry. I hope a lot of people here see this.

From the replies and the private emails, it is important for a lot of us here on this board.

[wakeme2008]

2. Very good Demgurl

I do want to find out if the lady is lying. If she is then she s doing a great disservice to rape victims everywhere. When you lie it makes it that much harder for rape victims to speak out since they doubt they will be believed.

I IMHO believe the SBI show she is lying and that will never help other rape victims. But on here we now have posters attacking the school. Just unbelievable.....

[demgurl]

57. Attacking the school was the final straw for me today.

I had resisted posting about this until now. The hatred spewing out of people is amazing. It is truly awful.

I do appreciate you sharing your opinion without any venom. If everyone did this then it would be so much easier - at least for me.

[wakeme2008]

63. Well

:hug: :hug: :hug:

[ugarte]

3. Like the Natalee Holloway case, I don't really have a clue

I simply don't have a crystal ball that enables me to know what happened that night, but that doesn't stop most people.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

4. guess what happens when you send women into combat areas...

it's just not reported, like everything else in this war

[riderinthestorm]

8. Men get raped too you know n/t

[salin]

10. and our society's attitudes are, I believe, even MORE hostile

towards the victim - forcing that to be an even more 'silenced' crime/victimization. :cry:

[salin]

5. here here to EVERYTHING you wrote

another survivor with a similar story.

I am angry when women make false accusations as it perpetuates how horrendously difficult it is for women who come forward with real cases. But - I am more angry at those whose instincts whenever a rape is alleged - suggest that a) a false accusation is worse for the man than b) a real rape is for a woman; and or suggest that the incidences of false accusals are far more common than the incidences or real rapes.

That said - per the Duke story - I am glad there is an investigation, and hope the bottom of the story (eg the reality) comes to light - whatever that means. For the reasons you state and I reiterate above.

Per your pleas - sadly for the four years I have been on DU - whenever a rape story comes up the same sentiments that make a survivor cringe are repeated over and over and over. It is clear to me, that across our society - liberal through conservative - there is still among many a belief that a potential male victim of false accusal is much more serious than a potential female victim of rape - and that arguing that point loudly is so important to do, that choosing words carefully in order not to trigger emotional responses from rape survivors is just not something to think/worry about.

Thankfully - there are also always a larger chorus of voices that counter those sentiments.

Does sting though, more than the comments themselves but the realization of how little society has come to terms with rapes and the revictimization of rape victims that leaves most victims with no stomache for coming forward; and leaves the rate of rape among women as likely victims - staggeringly high and unchanged for the past two decades.

Thanks for sharing your words. I know it must have been hard to write. You speak for many of us at DU.

[demgurl]

58. salin, thanks for your kind words.

It used to be hard to write or deal with but that was when I considered myself a victim. I have reclaimed my life and taken all power from my attacker. I may have been raped but I am not a victim any more.

It is funny but until I wrote my original post, I did not even have an inkling that this was hurting others who had been raped. I was speaking from a place where I was hurting. I am really glad I spoke out since others are standing with me. It does make all of this a little easier.

[Warpy]

6. You did nothing wrong and you survived

but rape is the most deeply life altering crime there is. If you've never considered counseling at a rape survivor's center, please do. It's never too late.

I remember the 60s and 70s all too well. The rape laws were property laws, and the complainant had to prove the rape turned her into "damaged goods." That meant only the virginal and utterly pure had a hope of pressing charges and winning, and even they got raped again by a system hell bent on protecting rapists. No woman who ever had a serious boyfriend, who had ever taken a drink, or who even held a job was pure enough for that system.

Even now that we've gotten some decent victim's shield laws, the defense team often violates the law by publishing the woman's name and address and by inappropriate courtroom conduct in minutely examining everything she's ever voluntarily done with her genitals. Pressing charges means being raped again by the legal system.

Rape is the ultimate hate crime and one that would seem to be sanctioned by our legal system. Men need to stop protecting rapists.

[riderinthestorm]

9. .

[demgurl]

59. warpy, I have considered help.....

but then I always wondered if I would sit there being judged by the person I am talking to. Society just seems to make this hard on so many levels. Thank you for your suggestion and happy Easter!

[niallmac]

7. Thanks for the post.

Very sorry to hear of your experience.
Sadly, 'letting it play out' legally is not
the mantra of our infotainment industry.
I certainly agree with you that all parties
involved deserve a sober investigation.

[Jade Fox]

11. Thank you....

A lot of the people passing judgment on the Duke case clearly have no idea what the reality of being raped is like. I personally find the idea that someone would fake being raped unbelievable, though I'm sure it happens at least occasionally. Many men, even here on DU, seem to almost doubt that rape happens or that it is devastating. I find that very disturbing.

[Pachamama]

12. I too was raped years ago....

...and reading the posts on the DU about the Duke rape case has actually been very upsetting and bringing up a lot of bad memories and emotions about the violence and abuse that I suffered, not just by the rapist himself, but by the "system" and society.

There have been many people on the DU that have been posting A LOT on the Duke Lacrosse Rape threads (many of the same names in each thread) that have relentlessly been spewing the so-called "facts" that are being promoted by the Defense and in every incidence implying that the alleged victim must have been lying or that the DA just wants to make a name for himself.

This is beyond disgusting...We don't know all the facts and like you, I want to know the facts. These are not going to be coming out in the court of public media, but in a court of law. The defense lawyers are doing their job (quite effectively too) of getting out the image of the accuser being a drunk, a whore, and a liar. How some of the people on this board seem to eat it up is as bad as the rest of the Bushbots in this country who believe the shit that spews from this administration and then even defend it.

I can only say that when anyone says that they have been raped, I am going to believe them and be sensitive to them and make sure they are okay. The facts will come out in court and in the meantime we have to believe her allegations. If it turns out she has lied, this is a crime in itself, but we don't know that it is at this time. How do we know she was beat up before hand? Have we seen the photos? We only know what the defense has said. How do we know she was drunk? Just because the defense lawyers said so and there is a tape of a cop who says she "appears" drunk? Anyone ever seen anyone who has had Roofies slipped in their drink? When I was raped, I had someone slip me roofies into my drink at the party and I too appeared "intoxicated" before passing out later.

All I can say is that the only thing that keeps me on the DU right now is that these people posting these ugly things about the rape victim and regurgitating the defense lawyers statements, I'm just going to assume they are visitors from Freeperland. I just can't believe otherwise that people who claim to be progressives or care about people would be so insensitive. Unfortunately however, sexism, racism and misogyny are rampant in our society, regardless of political views.

[tatertop]

21. Thank you for saying that

I, too, am appalled at the rape apologists
on this board.

[madrchsod]

29. i had the displeasure of going to a freeper site

while looking for the email links and god the one i read was what you described in your last paragraph. it was the bad-implied black girl- who -soiled-the manhood of these fine gentlemen.

[Pachamama]

32. And I had an advantage that the accuser in the Duke Lacrosse Case didn't

I am a white girl from a privileged background who went to an Ivy League School, Junior League, etc...I still was victimized and questioned about my rape and the person that was accused and questioned about whether it was "true" (or did I just "want it" or "was asking for it").

So, I can't even imagine being a poor black single mom who is a student trying to make ends meet and having to choose a profession of stripping to support myself and my kids and then having to defend myself against the accusations that have been coming her way.

I went to one of the eight Ivy's and I can honestly say, many of these "fine gentlemen" are no gentlemen at all - whether its a black girl, a white girl, a poor girl or a rich girl.

[EFerrari]

60. And neither is the league. One of those schools refrained

from dealing with a serial sexual harrasser and my school hired him with full tenure. As soon as the ink was dry, we started getting phones calls. It was a very bad situation.

[goclark]

31. Yes!

[hiaasenrocks]

40. It would be ideal if everyone

would afford both sides the benefit of not being called a liar. We don't know what happened.

If she's telling the truth, she's damaged for life and these guys should pay the penalty.

If she's lying, then she should pay the price.

And how will some of these guys get their reputations back if the allegations are false? I know people who would shun them even if they were acquitted. That's the result of the "if a woman says she is raped, we have to believe her" type comments, which has no basis in logic; it's all emotion, and that doesn't hold much water with rational people.

I notice that there were lots of "reasonable doubt" type questions offered in your post on behalf of this accuser. And that's a good thing, because we should not presume to know the facts before we have them. Similarly, I think many reasonable doubt questions could be asked on behalf of the accused men as well. Haven't seen too much of that around here.

In fact, your last paragraph could and should be applied to the accused as well as the accuser. If you can't believe that progressives would be so insensitive toward the victim, how can you believe that progressives would rush to judgment against people who haven't had the benefit of trial at this point? This works both ways. As a liberal, I'd rather be fair and logical about this, and hear the full official story from both sides. I'll leave the hasty, unfair, unfounded rush to judgment to the freeper types.

[Pachamama]

49. I agree with everything you said...

and we don't know all the facts and judgement of either side is a rush to judgement...period.

That said, I will stand by my statement that when a person (man or woman) says that they are a rape victim, I am going to stand by that person and believe this serious charge unless it is proved otherwise in a court of law or other evidence that shows they are lying. The only "evidence" that has been offered up that she is a liar is by the defense. Not exactly the source that we should be assuming wants to offer up anything to show she is a victim. The defense attorneys are doing exactly what any defense attorney should/would do for their clients - whether its even truthful or not.

I have believed since the beginning that a rape occurred, but have not known for certain if it was by none, one or more of the players or even friends of theirs attending the party.

If she is lying, that is as I said a serious crime in itself. But we don't know that, no matter what FUD is put out by the Defense. These things will come out in court and then we will know more to make and base a firm opinion on it. But I'm sorry, whenever someone has said they are a victim of a rape or any other violent crime, I'm going to believe them until proven in a court otherwise. Who is guilty is another story, I don't know if its any of the players or friends that were there or if it occurred before or after the party. None of us know the answer yet. But we all owe it to victims of violent crimes to believe them when they make an allegation as serious as this.

Yes, there are reasonable doubts being brought up for both sides. And when more facts come out, there may some additional doubts or firm conclusions that can be made. As a rape victim however, I have to say, many comments and threads on this topic have been very upsetting and have for me, just like for Demgurl, shown me the biases and judgements that permiate our society about what rape is and why it happens, and sadly misinformation. I wish people spent as much time trying to prevent and protect victims as rape as they do to judge them.

[hiaasenrocks]

50. Part of the problem is...

that people are willing to believe someone "unless it is proved otherwise in a court of law or other evidence that shows they are lying."

I can see why you personally might take that approach, considering your experience. But, again, that's an emotional response, not a logical one. And it's a damn good thing our system doesn't rely on emotion.

This is why we have a system in which the burden of proof is on the accuser. We don't have a "prove otherwise" system in this country. Simply saying something happened isn't good enough. Other evidence (direct or circumstantial) should be taken into account before believing an accuser.

And, as I said, I'll be fair to both sides and wait for such evidence. If it can be proved, then I'll believe it. If not, then the guys deserve the benefit of the doubt. How else would anyone want this system to work?

[noiretextatique]

81. rape is, unfortuantely, a common enough crime

that i don't have a whole lot of trouble believing it could have actually happened, since it happens all the time. that's what i find maddening about some the threads here: the complete disconnection from the fact that this crime occurs every day in this country.

[hiaasenrocks]

101. So is burglary.

(And before anyone jumps to the conclusion that I am equating rape with burglary, hold the flames. I'm simply talking about the aspect of how common a crime is.)

Just because a particular crime is common -- and many are -- that doesn't lend any credibility to a particular accuser. The facts of that case are the measure of credibility. Again, this is why our system is set up the way it is. If you, as a juror, decided to believe the alleged victim because "rape happens a lot" then you're a bad juror. It's not your job to use crime statistics to decide a case.

I know you weren't specifically talking about being on a jury. But the scary thing is there have probably been jurors who have voted to convict or acquit based on the irrelevant information like you're using.

[bliss_eternal]

69. "how will some of these guys get their reputations..."

back if the allegations..."

The same way people with wealth and influence always have--they'll pay for it and move on with their lives. The kinds of circles men like that run in, no one will care that they were accused of rape, if the people in those circles can't even bring themselves to believe they would ever commit a crime to begin with. In their minds, men like that don't HAVE TO rape. Seriously. So it won't hurt them at all in the long run.

Forgive me if this sounds cut and dried or curt. That is not my intent. We aren't talking about men of poverty, men of color or men with prior criminal records that would definitely have a challenging time if it is found that they were falsely accused of a crime. Think about the kind of men we are talking about and then consider what your question.

Victims on the other hand, have a long, hard road ahead of them no matter what the outcome of the trial.

Again, no disrespect intended here.

[hiaasenrocks]

100. Wow. So much for "progressive thinking"...

The wild generalizations in your second paragraph are impossible to address because they're so ridiculous. This isn't a Lifetime TV movie.

I used to live in the Raleigh, NC, area and knew many people with "wealth and influence," some of whom were Duke graduates. If you think having money and influence means that you have no morals when it comes to rape and other crimes against persons, I'm not sure I know how to pull you back from that fantasy land.

Yes, I am being deliberately harsh because you are lumping an unproven crime (at this point) with an entire socioeconomic group. Sorry, but that's the type of prejudiced thinking I'd rather not engage in. If it makes you feel better, and if you have to do it to justify your emotional position on this, that is of course your right.

[bliss_eternal]

120. It was not my intent

to offend you. Of course, you are also entitled to feel as you do. I feel that you have misunderstood my post and my intent. It happens. No biggie.

I based what I said on the many rape cases I have followed, where the alleged perpertrators walk away and are able to move on with their lives, rather unscathed by the incident, or the accusation. The alleged victim on the other hand is frequently not as fortunate. This seems quite frequent to me in cases where the alleged perpertrators are from wealthy backgrounds.

I'm not at all sure where you get these accusations about my generalizing in regard to anyone's morals. :shrug: Or generalizations about the wealthy. You choose not to consider another perspective and to frame that opinion as some sort of Lifetime movie fantasy. LOL. Um...ok.

As a progressive, I don't have to make generalizations about the wealthy. I'm well versed in what money and power can buy, most on this board are. All one has to do is read the paper, the internet, this board, etc. Does money not buy some certain latitudes and freedoms others do not possess?

Dominique Dunne has built a career reporting on how the wealthy get away with things the rest of the world does not.

Is it far-fetched to not reasonably deem that power and priveledge might not also help one to overcome a false accusation if one is faced with such a situation?

It's clear whose side you are on in this, based on this response and the others that you've shared on this thread. That's fine, and is your right of course. I merely offered my opinion. You rejected it, based on your beliefs. No harm, no foul. :)

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bloom]

102. Just as there are

many rape victims on this board - I have to wonder if some of the people who are so insistent about defending rapists are rapists themselves - who don't want to feel guilty. As if to defend some rapists in NC or CA is to defend themselves.

And I can't for the life of me figure out why people get away with posting lies about false rape accusations - without documentation. These things are clearly from right-wing-nuts and yet the post stands. That would never happen if it were about other progressive issues - or other groups. For instance the I/P contingent has several sites that they have gotten to be declared off-limits. But the misogynist sites are not.

[wordpix2]

104. thanks for posting & I totally agree---let's get the facts before we try

the dancer, who may or may not be lying, just like the lacrosse players may or may not have raped her.

[Evergreen Emerald]

13. Thanks for speaking out

It must have been hard for you.

[Onlooker]

14. Brave post ...

While the defense tries this case in the public eye, the victim is in pain.

[Thtwudbeme]

15. There are a few things that are bothering me about DUers posts re: Duke

Why the hell are so many people rushing to the defense of Duke, and the lacrosse players without having the benefit of the trial?

Where is the outrage over such a worthless societal system that Duke benefits from that allows women to have to work as strippers to pay for their own tuition?

AND...ready for the biggest question I have?

Does the attitude about Duke on DU mesh with the Southern bashing that goes on here? In other words, racism and misogyny are GREAT if they are at that fabulous college, Duke...but, horrible, horrible, horrible that the South has a history like that.

Interesting, eh.

[alarimer]

33. Those things bother me too

What I have noticed about college towns in general (I know nothing about Duke or that town at all) is that there is usually a tremendous divide between town and gown. I went to a small school in a small town in deep south Alabama. Athletes in particular are treated as gods and get away with a whole lot of shit (well male athletes especially and football players in particular- even at Division II schools). I was (briefly) on the softball team and the standard of behavior for female athletes was very different. You were expected to be exemplary in everything. But football players could cheat, could commit crimes almost with impunity.

Now Duke is an elite institution, quite unlike the state university I attended. I am guessing there is a huge class divide between the elite and those who have to work their way through school in general. In our society there is the perception that women who work as strippers must be prostitutes as well, wen I seriously doubt that is often the case. So of course she must be fair game :sarcasm: And that attitude has been exhibited on the site as well.

[YouthInAsia]

87. In the same sense, why are so many people rushing to judgement

in regards to the players guilt?

[CTLawGuy]

99. I think they work as strippers because they can make good money

Society doesn't "force" them to do it. She makes the decision herself.

[LostinVA]

111. She was somewhat forced to because they are single moms working

their way through college. A job like this has short, flexible hours and a very decent wage... versus retail, fast food, or anything else she might have chosen. We have a society that'll pis Monet away on worthless things, but won't help a woman like this so she can better her life.

And, there is NOTHING wrong with being a stripper. I don't mean it like that.

[babylonsister]

16. demgurl, thank you for sharing.

I know that was difficult for you, but you also are hopefully educating many to at least consider the other side.

:hug:

[goclark]

17. Demgurl your words were so needed

today and everyday.

I hope that your words will help everyone at DU to see how words can sting.

We sit here at our keyboards and just click any old letter and say any old thing about any group of people or people in situations that we have not experienced.

Someone this morning said, " We are all but a thread in the web of life."

That really stuck with me because we never know when that thread will break for any one of us.

And when it breaks,it hurts to the core.

It causes people to "dry up like a raisin in the son" as my favorite poet, Langston Hughes, wrote.

PEACE Demgurl and remember that it is NEVER too late to try to resolve issues that are hurtful in our lives.

Your ability to post this morning will hopefully help you to seek additional help.

Thanks so much for opening your heart to us today.
PEACE

[RebelOne]

18. I was raped when I was 14.

I didn't go to the police because I was too ashamed to tell my parents. But the guy who raped me not long after raped another girl and she did go to the police.

[Frank Cannon]

19. I've been silent about this whole Duke thing, and have ignored...

all the forums about it. I don't know what happened that night, and neither does anyone else here. I kind of figure it's up to the court system to figure all that stuff out, but what do I know? :shrug:

[goclark]

34. You know a lot, we all should have

not even bothered to jump into the debate.


But I am learning that when you see some posters, there is no need to try to bring compassion to the thread because they don't want to hear it.

Maybe we need to label the threads ~ FOR or AGAINST and we could post to the " FOR ...let's wait and see what the Courts will decide" thread.

Huum, I just thought about the Bush take over of the Supreme Court situation.

We knew going in what that outcome would be, and now that Bush has two more good buddies up there, it's near impossible for a verdict in our favor.

[joeunderdog]

20. Wow. Talk about Fair and Balanced!

I would not be so kind if I were you.

I am hoisting a pint (of Ben & Jerry's) to you. Thank you for your words.

:toast:

[HeeBGBz]

22. Raped on the 4th of July 1979

I was drunk and hitchiked back from watching fireworks in Phoenix, Arizona. Never reported it because I figured I was drunk and stupid to be hitchiking and that's what the cops would tell me. Doesn't mean I wasn't scared shitless. I slept with a butcher knife for a week after thinking he'd find me. After that I moved away.

[madrchsod]

23. rape was rarely reported when i was growing up (i`m 59)

and it seems just in the last few years that it is "acceptable" for women to come forward instead of staying hidden from the court of public opinion. the alleged rape case has now become the case dejour for the media because it has all the elements of a perfect story. an alleged drunk exotic dancing black girl who was being paid to make some drunk white rich frat boys get a hard on while watching her gyrate her booty and in uncontrollable drunken moment these guys allegedly raped her.the classic racial and gender bias story that has been played out for centuries. now i just read where the defense team claims the police may have written the e-mail from one of the guys who was not named as her attacker. jesse gets involved by promising a to pay for her college.god only knows what will happen the following weeks about this story.

i do know that as i am typing this there is probably a woman that is being raped or is suffering from the first effects of a rape that does not make nancy grace`s hit parade or jesse jackson crusade. these unknown women suffer in silence or their suffering is shared by those around them and they deserve just as much attention as the duke incident.

[Evergreen Emerald]

25. A friend of mine was raped by a fellow student at school

The day after his arrest, many students wore t-shirts supporting him. You can imagine how she was treated at school. She had nasty things taped to her locker, she had stuff thrown on her front porch. The admin. did not support her. The guy plead guilty, but it did not matter to the community.

[OzarkDem]

73. My college roommate was gang raped

by a group of fraternity boys. She was drinking at one of their parties, left with one of them who she had a big crush on. Went to his room and had consensual sex, then he got up and left and let all of his frat buddies come in after him. A real jerk.

She was a 4.0 honor student, but was blamed for the incident. She was expelled from school, the fraternity guys all were put on "social" probation for 6 months, pure BS. She never went back to college, a missed opportunity.

I looked in my college alumni directory a while back and saw most of the frat boys are now working in business, and two of them are teaching high school. I was very tempted to call their employers.

I wasn't even there that weekend, but I even ended up getting pulled into the deans office and questioned. I was pissed and defended her. I even had to put up with obscene phone calls and remarks on campus, just for being her roommate and was real quick to tell these assholes to f*ck off or I was going to report them.

Sadly, it doesn't sound as though things have changed very much.

[stop the bleeding]

24. This thread is a good one,

O8)

[Mountainman]

26. I think that like a lot of issues on this board, people have already made

up their minds and are just looking for support of their side and to attack those on the other side.

I am sorry you had to go through what you did. Nothing we can say can fix things but I think a lot of us support you and those in your position.

[Loge23]

27. To the victims of violence, peace

I am fortunate to be in place today that allows me to enjoy beautiful weather. Two ducks swim happily on a small lake. Across the lake, not too far away, a turtle sleeps in the sun along the bank. A beautiful white egret flies in fascinated, as I am, by the plainly visible carp and bass munching the grass just below the water's surface. Another turtle pokes his little head out of the water as it swims by. A soft breeze compliments the scene and I realize how truly fortunate I am to be here.
I check into to DU and read this thread.
I dedicate the peace I have today to you and all the victims of selfish and senseless violence.

[Pachamama]

30. Namaste....

:hug:

[otohara]

28. I Just Checked Out a Couple "Duke" Threads

uck -

I'm with you demgurl.

my freshman son was recruited to play college lacrosse dropped out a couple months ago - he quit because the LAX mentality is very much about big drinking parites and bragging about how many girls you have sex with. He now goes to yoga 3 times per week and is much happier.

[Joe Chi Minh]

35. If I were a girl, I think I would say, "I want you to know that

I WILL kill you if you rape me. It may not be tomorrow or the day after, but I WILL do it. And personally." As a convinced Christian, I might have qualms about doing it. But, on the other hand, it would be a public service.

Also, I would be prone to recklessness in such circumstances, so a knife at my throat might not deter me from any extreme measure apt to deal with the creature as it deserved.

Always remember, a blow to the Adam's Apple is just as effective as a kick in the groin. If you are attacked from behind while standing up, use your elbows and heels with great force.

[Caoimhe]

86. So then he might make sure that you

don't get a chance to kill him sometime in the future, and leave you dead right there.... Awful thought, but I think many rapists are also capable of murder.

Scary situation, I hope I never face. God bless you demgurl and :hug:

[DIKB]

97. Not a situation

anyone should be in. Though if it ever comes to it, one of us dies, and if I die, I die fighting.

Scratch them HARD so the DNA is under your fingers, then go for the eyes/crotch/throat.

If they are on top of you, make a blade with your hand, using the protruding thumb bone do quick chops to their kidneys.

Grab an ear and pull, put a finger in each nostril and pull up and away from the face.

Scream bloody FUCKING murder, if they're covering your mouth, he can't hold your hands, then you use your nails to make him bleed.

People will get away with rape a hell of a lot easier than they will with murder. There is little to no question of the "reputation" of a murder victim. It's a choice for each person to make, but as for me, I'd rather die.

[Joe Chi Minh]

124. It's a judgement the victim would have to make, according to the

circumstances. That should go without saying.

[Iris]

122. wow! Good for your son.

Nice work!

[Marnieworld]

36. Thank you for sharing this with us.

It takes courage and kindness. It's disgusting what happened to you and what was taken from you. Enjoy your ice cream and the comfort it gives for the moment without guilt. I hope that you also find comfort here, among friends. :hug:

P.S. whoever did this to you should find a special circle in hell.

[pitohui]

37. i'm so sorry for what happened to you

unfortunately i have discovered it is completely impossible to have an open online discussion and never touch on someone's sensitivities anywhere in the universe

i think when we are feeling particularly vulnerable, our best option is not to open certain threads or posts

if people of goodwill are discussing concerns honestly abt such things as being falsely accused of a crime, could be a reason, i do know people who have been falsely accused of a crime, indeed i was such a one, tho the crime was not rape, it is almost impossible to clear yourself if it is not a crime of violence where DNA can be used to prove your innocence -- so people become understandably alarmed that suddenly DNA is not even good enough to clear the accused

where does it end? i don't know, you look at things like the central park jogger where the police and prosecutors colluded to destroy the lives of several innocent boys later cleared by DNA and you realize that false accusations -- and not just from victims (the CPJ remembered nothing) -- but from prosecutors out to make a name as well

people being falsely accused and convicted is not rare, it is common, and many of us know of such cases

unfortunately rape is not rare either, and ALL of us know of such cases or are ourselves victims

so how do we discuss this without mentioning such matters?

i honestly do not know

i truly hope i have not given offense, i don't wish to, i just wonder if there is a way to see all sides

our current system DON'T work, innocent people ARE accused and often even convicted, guilty people ARE freed or not reported, and it happens every damn day

no way we can't NOT talk about this

[salin]

39. just a polite way

of giving an example of the problem - at least the rhetoric is toned down... though the tone is present and well suggesting the incident of false accusal are as frequent as the incident as rape - and therefor on equal footing. When you find the stats on the rates of false accusals/charges being likely to be brought against 1 in 3 men between the ages of 15 and 35 (the rate of likely rape for women) then we can talk about the things as being equal in frequency.

[pitohui]

44. let's try it another way

you are comparing apples and oranges, and i don't know how you can do that, how can you say that injustice is only worth considering if it happens in equal numbers? it doesn't even make any sense

I could make the equally insensitive argument in the other direction: while it is true that rape is more common, in most cases the rape is over in a night, while false accusation is less common, it destroys an entire life, example, a man in my community was placed in angola prison for 15 years until cleared by DNA of a false accusation, did the rush to judgement help the rape victim, um, don't think so, she now has the additional guilt of knowing she testified under oath and identified the wrong man because to her all black men look alike and the police were eager to grab the first dude they saw -- and so the false accusation/conviction has cost the man his youth and really done nothing worthwhile for the rape victim either at least not if she has a conscience

rather than make this argument, i would like to propse this: it is not a contest, the problem of rape and the problem of false accusations are both serious problems and anyone who dismisses one of those problems as trivial has forfeited my respect as a serious thinker, one false accusation is too many if you are the one falsely accused

it's comparing apples and oranges, and to pretend that even ONE false accusation that destroys a person's life is not important, is counter to the intent of the american constitution

like it or not, our original gov't was formed by the concept that it is better a hundred guilty men go free than one innocent be unfairly punished

if we don't like that system, we need to consider how to change it

but also bearing in mind that different people will pay the price, if we are willing to tolerate a higher rate of false conviction in order to make more victims of rape feel comfortable filing reports, then we have to concede that we are willing to sacrifice a certain number of innocent young men (often black men) for this cause

i am not willing to say that, because i am a woman and i am less likely to be falsely accused, i should therefore not give a damn abt people who are falsely accused

just as i would not respect a man, who being at lesser risk of rape, did not give a damn abt women being raped

both issues are serious and entwined and to pretend otherwise is indeed to choke off any serious discussion based on reality as opposed to the way we'd have done things if god had just arsed himself to ask first before creating the universe

[NMMNG]

94. "in most cases the rape is over in a night"

That has to be one of the least informed statements I've seen on the subject, ever.


While the physical event may be over within a night in most cases, the rape has many lingering after effects which can last months, years--even a lifetime. Physical trauma, disease, pregnancy, psychological effects, etc. Rape is not an isolated event, but one that takes a very real, lasting toll on its victims.

[salin]

96. bingo

I once read materials for survivors - by therapists who worked with them. A common theme was that survivors came to view their life as "pre-rape" and "post-rape" as some things due to the trauma were changed forever. This isn't to say that there is no healing - there can be - but healing does not mean returning to 'pre-rape' phase of life.

The expressed view though highlights why for some - it is so easy to dismiss victims.

[Iris]

123. omg. I stopped reading after

"rape is over in a night"

Have you read this thread? These women are pointing out that rape is NOT over in a night and sometimes the rigtfully accused get of cleanly while the victim suffers horrible consequences - including the roommate up the thread who was EXPELLED from college!

[noiretextatique]

83. obviously, there is a lot of fear about false accusation

since no one i've asked to provide statistics has done so.
instead, i get lectures about how important it is to remember that any (poetential) false accusation is just as bad as 1 in 3 women, aged 15-35 actually being raped.

[LostinVA]

112. Approximately 2% of reported rapes are false accusations

as per the FBI... and many of the accused are people KNOWN to the accuser (ie neighbor, boyfriend, teacher, husband). False accusations in stranger rape is not the norm.

This has been answered many, many times on the various Duke threads.

The point people are making is that 98% of REPORTED rapes aren't false accusations, but that every time a rape thread comes up, certain posters start acting like the numbers are reversed. And sometimes posting fake rape stats from RW sites. Also remember that rape is very underreported, some law enforcement experts think only 10-20% of rapes are reported... so this skews the 1-in-3 a bit, eh?

[Lindacooks]

116. Only 2% of reported rapes are false accusations.

That's the same as most other crimes. Some reports say as high as 9% are false.

Balance that against the fact that only about 1/3 of rapes are ever even reported to the police; rape is the most underreported crime. And that only 6% of all actual rapists will ever spend a day in jail.

http://www.pprsr.org/rapecrisis/statistics.cfm

http://www.wavaw.ca/informed_stats.php

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm?aid=398

I'm not defending false accusers; they damage the real victims. What I am saying is the vast majority, at least 92%, of rape accusations are true.

[demgurl]

55. pitohui, I can only speak for myself and say you did not offend me.

I do not wish to censor or to stop all discussion because it is only through discussion we can understand each other. I just wish people would not say so and so is lying or guilty or innocent.

As someone who has been raped, I do wish I could believe each and every rape victim. I offer support but I hold my breath on public cases and wait for the truth to come out.

I also do not think we should demonize the alleged perpetrator until we find out the truth about them.

There are things that the insiders know but that we do not and may never know.

Every time someone called the alleged rape victim a liar, I just died a little bit inside. Every time someone said the suspects were vindicated or guilty, I also died a little bit. We are a nation of justice and we simply do not have the fact to make observations. I know the test results seem to clear the suspects but then why have they not completely dropped the case?

It is a scary mentality when folks are rejoicing in people being innocent without conclusive proof. What if they are found guilty? The mentality shown, by some, makes it that much harder for rape victims to speak up. What if they are innocent? Well, the mentality, shown on this board, still has done nothing to make it easier for a victim to come forward.

A rape is one of the toughest times in a woman's life and when it is perceived she will be raked over the coals then she will shut up and decide she has been raped enough as it is.

All of this has not been about who is lying, but rather creating a friendly atmosphere where someone can confidently come forward. We can all work together to create a better atmosphere for women.

[area51]

38. your bravery

I'm so sorry this happened to you, demgurl. :hug: Thank you for speaking out.

[sellitman]

41. DU rocks because of posts like yours.

Thanks for your insight! :hug:

[sam sarrha]

42. thank you for the insight.. this women probably doesn't remember either,

for a different reason, she has a history of '''alcoholic blackouts''', she has been arrested for sleeping in someones car, she left a party she blacked out in and just got into someplace warm to sleep, on the way she was wandering. one report said she has lied to police before.. but maybe her mind just automatically filled in the 'Blanks' rather than face the alcoholic shame. and alcoholic shame burns hotter and deeper than F'n Acid. that isn't uncommon, a normal persons does that all the time, to just deal with perspective.

she needs help and a 'serious recovery program.. '

from what i heard of her history she doesn't have any sort of valid case on her own. she would never stand up to questioning, thats not a condemnation, it is reality -right or wrong.. i doubt a judge would even allow her on a stand or even try this case. unless there are other people to testify about what went on. i used to do Juvenile Justice reports and represented juveniles in court for the government. it is tough in there, an alcoholic with a history of blackouts is toast, not a witness. her partner left the place because she felt threatened..prehaps the victim would have seen that too if she were not also the victim of substance addiction, and mentally impaired .. i am not blaming or protecting anyone.. this is a complex situation... it looks to me like she was doing the only job she could find to do and still drink, and a dangerous job involving sex and alcohol and young athletes. it sounds like the women were freelancing, a business would have had a make escort because things get out of hand quickly.. i was a security guard at an apartment complex that required these events to be in the activity building in a lounge and a guard present.. it was a luxury apartment complex.. and they still got way over the top for me..

as for the racial aspect of this story.. how come the only black male there didn't give a DNA sample when all the whites did.. not that he is required to..

this is a wait and see situation.. there are just a lot of variables, just info, some real. some not, some misunderstood.

but the underlying situation is that this woman seems to have a serious alcohol and maybe a drug problem.. this could just be her 'ROCK BOTTOM'. mine saved me, i hope hers saves her.

Demgurl, i was sexually assaulted as a small child.. i guess that is the source of a lot of my cynicism and general anger at injustice and republicans.

please consider a little counseling along the way, i found my ladder out of darkness when i ran across a tape set by Pemma Chodron called, 'When Things Fall Apart'.. it explained a lot for me, meditation has really changed my life..i am not so concerned about enlightenment as for the clarity and stability it gives my life, i quit drinking and got married. my childhood assault really messed up my whole life.. and i was an autistic child, vulnerable and helpless.
it made me a person you didn't want to mess with.. i developed some serious verbal skills and was always on guard after that, i still sleep with weapons and i am 57. not a pleasant way to live..

for those of you who don't know what a blackout is... here is a story

a friend of mine was going to go down the street about 6 blocks and score a couple grams of coke.. he stops by 7/11 and gets a 16 oz beer to drink waiting for the 'man'.. he sits back out of sight in the entrance of an old church and about the time he finishes the beer.. 10 cop cars with lights and sirens blaring and 20 cops jump out and point shotguns at him and start yelling 'throw the gun out'!!
he is yelling i got no gun.. they rush him and cuff him and pull out his gun.. and the $1400 he robbed from the 7/11... he is seriously confused and then the one Wise cop asks, 'What day is it?', he says Saturday.. the cop says Wrong..Wendesday.

as a 30 year alcoholic, sober 6 years i can validate that alcoholic shit gets real deep real quick. it is a roller coaster ride till it kills you. the movie 'Groundhog Day' is about alcoholism, everyday is the same.. till you change it.

this womans story is tragic... but it is just one stop along her journey through the hell of addiction.

this post is essentially about the underlying causes of events and not about guilt or innocence

[bettyellen]

46. wow are you projecting much about the alcoholism?

and then adding that to statements totally taken from the accused defense attorneys? anybody but the accused say she blacked out at the party? it's a great strategy to mess up her credibility. whether it's close to the truth, you have no way of knowing.

please stop quoting the defense attorney as if it's gospel. that's really offensive.

[sam sarrha]

118. my post was made out of concern for a woman in a tragic situation.. i have

heard worse stories in A.A. meetings and it is only down hill from where she is now if that is her problem.. and it looks like it is. she gave a cab driver a lap dance to pay for a fare at a strip club, stoled the cab and had a high speed chase which ended in charges with assault on an officer, she didn't mean to try to run him down with 2X alcohol legal limit, she was just trying to get away.. she payed her fines and did her time.. and ended up drunk passed out and unresponsive,in someone else's car after being beat up and allegedly raped (and i have NO doubt it was rape considering where she was alone with sex and alcohol involved).. as i have said i have been a security guard at these events at really fine reputable places.. I said it was totally out of hand by my view. drunk guys licking whipped cream off of a naked drunk woman, while she sat on the the other security guards face.. you could smell the testosterone..hell you could taste is just breathing, i studied behavioral Zoology and that was a pack behavior on the edge.. they were just married Baboons with suits and ties and a hard on.

so if you dont think she has a problem.. you need to go to one of these events..
if you dont think alcohol addiction doesn't lead to these sorts of events.. 'you' are in denial

i am not trying to minimize any crime that may have been done to her.. i am trying to point out that she really seems to have a problem that is not addressed in this culture.. i was driving a truck across the bridge that the young couple hung themselves above the traffic with a sign that stated they couldn't get help and and couldn't live in addiction any more.. they had been given an appointment date and time, 2 years in advance for rehab evaluation. i was driving a truck because i had quit a job as a Juvenile Parole Office because i was told not to do my job and quit teaching meditation to inmates.. because they were all paroled in 60 days.. i also worked closely with the local drug and alcohol rehab center

my concern is for her future i already know her present and past is hell.. but it only gets worse for here, ...simple as that regardless of the legal outcome of this..

[BlueIris]

52. "the movie 'Groundhog Day' is about alcoholism"

'Kay...um. I have to agree with the poster who thinks you might be projecting a tad. Also--an alcoholic can still be raped. And not everyone with her alleged "history" wouldn't remember events accurately.

[WhiteTara]

74. you write as if this woman were your next door

neighbor. Where did you get you info about her? I didn't see your link to support these allegations. What's up?

[The Backlash Cometh]

43. This case is being tried too hurriedly in public.

If the woman is the one telling the truth, we will all feel horrible for taking sides before all the evidence is in.

[knitter4democracy]

45. Thank you!

I can't believe the vitriol from the defense side and the need to question absolutely every single tiny detail, all of which negatively for the victim. It saddens me, actually.

Too freakin' many women get raped, too many rape victims never report it or press charges, and too many have trouble remembering what happened due to impairment of some sort, often one given to them.

I just wish everyone would stick to playing nice with such a loaded topic.

[sam sarrha]

47. the case is being tried by the media, the police are hiding the details to

keep people uninformed so a jury can be chose as unbiased as possible. that is driving the media nuts.. especially that hatefull shrill blond bitch on CNN

[knitter4democracy]

48. It makes for good ratings, I guess.

It has all the marks of a good story. I just hope the ending is good.

[BrownOak]

61. Close, but not quite...

The police are hiding details, but the DA was pretty vocal with proclaiming the suspects guilty from the start of all of this.

People want to jump all over the defense for trying this case in the media, but in the first week when this story broke, the DA had free run in the press and left no doubt as to his position on guilt or innocence. Anything the defense is doing at this point is trying to take back the ground gained by those opening statements.

[Greyhound]

51. I'm so sorry

:grouphug:
I don't think people understand just how prevalent this is in our society, and to call it a "sex crime" is abhorrent. Of all the women I've known in my life, the majority have gone through this and, like you, never reported it because of the torture they are put through in seeking justice. I can't say I blame you, or them, at all.

Edit: It really makes me sick that we are so cold and selfish.

[TreasonousBastard]

53. Thanks for your post, and...

I hope talking about it helps to heal the wounds, even after all this time. I see others have added their own terrible experiences, and my heart goes out to them, too.

In every criminal case, not just sex crimes, it sickens me that just about everyone who has heard about it has to have an opinion. Not just a considered opinion, but screaming rage at the defendant, the accuser, the prosecutor, the police, the defender, the judge, the jury, the press... Someone. Anyone.

I think it gives many of us who have not been so assaulted a time to expose our own fears and prejudices and transpose them on to whoever it is in the proceedings that we fear the most. Women fear rape, men fear being falsely accused of rape. No, I don't mean to equate those fears, but they do exist. Racism, classism, and other "isms" come into play and far too many of us use the crime as cover to vent our own rages and fears.

And, as you so eloquently say, in the end it does nothing to help the real victims nor does it bring about real justice.

[Vektor]

54. I'm sorry - thank you for speaking out.

It's a sad state we live in when a woman cannot feel safe reporting she has been the victim of a crime, which in turn sets up a perfect climate for perps to continue victimizing others - since there is a good chance the victim will not tell anyone.

It's vicious cycle.

I am so sorry you had this happen to you. :hug:

[cynatnite]

62. A friend of mine retracted her charge of rape...

she was treated horribly by the investigating officer and didn't think she would be believed.

[bettyellen]

105. and to top it off, i'm sure she's one of the stats these guys point to

saying another "false allegation" .

[bloom]

107. It would be interesting to know

how many of the 2% of the reported rapes that turn out to be "false accusations" are really that. The victims feels like it would be too hopeless and/or demeaning to pursue it.


It seems to me that it usually comes out pretty quickly that an accusation was false - the couple times in the past couple years in the University town nearby - when such was reported in the media.

[motocicleta]

64. Demgurl: thanks for this

I have fortunately avoided all discussion of the Duke case - I don't have a TV, and I have no interest in those threads, mostly because I don't see why the details of any court case are of interest to me - but the accusations that surround women accusing men of rape are vile and well-documented.
I personally have been lied to by a woman about a rape that didn't happen, but rather than focus on that sort of thing, I know that it is such an incredibly less likely occurrence than actual rapes. I wish it was the opposite, but it's clearly not. After this experience of being duped by a pathological liar, I have learned that far too many of my female friends have had the real experience. I don't let that one liar make me suspicious of all who accuse. And the reality is that the liar probably did experience something like she said, just not the way she said.
It's so very important for women such as yourself to share the truth with the rest of us. Thank you for speaking out.
As far as the Duke case - I don't know, and I hope the courts come up with the right conclusion, but history is probably against that. What is important - that everyone know the realities of violence against women in our society and work to combat it. I'm doing my best with my daughter, but I don't really even know what is the best thing for her? Should she be strong? Should she be clever? Should she be resilient? Probably all of the above, I suppose.

[happydreams]

65. This is one of the saddest posts I've seen

I'm so sorry so many women here have been raped. It's a crime that enrages and saddens me like few others. Wishing all of the victims the best. :cry:

[GOPFighter]

66. Thanks for reminding us...

I think men like myself have become a bit desensitized to how traumatic rape is for the victim. Consensual sex is casual and open these days - especially in the media. We sometimes forget that rape isn't about sex but about being violated, overpowered against your will. Thanks for sharing your very personal story.

[rucky]

67. UCR/FBI says only 2% of all rape claims are false.

Doesn't exactly earn any accused rapist a huge benefit of the doubt, does it? Yet in the public eye (with this and with Kobe and with William Kennedy Smith), the opinions always SEEM to be split 50/50.

That 2% sure gets alot more attention than I say it deserves.

[BlueIris]

71. Thanks, fellow sane poster.

[noiretextatique]

85. yet that 2% is a big topic of discussion here in any rape thread

:shrug: things that make you go hmmm...

[bettyellen]

106. guys deny it, yet the same people quote the FBI for OTHER stats.

have you seen some of the links around here?
for shame!

[Karmadillo]

114. Other claims suggest the number is higher

http://archives.cjr.org/year/97/6/rape.asp

The Elusive Numbers on False Rape

Readers of The Kansas City Star were told last March that, according to police estimates, perhaps 25 percent of all rape reports nationwide are false.

But in Dallas, two months before that, the Morning News reported police findings that 6.2 percent of the 793 rapes in that city in 1995 (the most recent year available) were considered false.

And in Louisville, six months earlier, the author of an op-ed article in The Courier-Journal told readers that the percentage of rape reports that turn out to be false was the same nationally as for other major crimes - around 2 percent.

So how can one presumably simple statistic vary so widely? Because the number depends on whom you ask.

more...

http://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/dnaevid.txt

<edit>

Commentary by Peter Neufeld, Esq.
and Barry C. Scheck

Mr. Scheck Is Professor of Law and
Director of Clinical Education
Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law
New York, New York

Postconviction DNA exonerations provide a
remarkable opportunity to reexamine, with greater
insight than ever before, the strengths and
weaknesses of our criminal justice system and how
they bear on the all-important question of factual
innocence. The dimensions of the factual innocence
problem exceed the impressive number of
postconviction DNA exonerations listed in this
report. Indeed, there is a strong scientific basis
for believing these matters represent just the tip
of a very deep and disturbing iceberg of cases.
Powerful proof for this proposition lies with an
extraordinary set of data collected by the Federal
Bureau of Investigation (FBI) since it began
forensic DNA testing in 1989.

Every year since 1989, in about 25 percent of the
sexual assault cases referred to the FBI where
results could be obtained (primarily by State and
local law enforcement), the primary suspect has
been excluded by forensic DNA testing.
Specifically, FBI officials report that out of
roughly 10,000 sexual assault cases since 1989,
about 2,000 tests have been inconclusive (usually
insufficient high molecular weight DNA to do
testing), about 2,000 tests have excluded the
primary suspect, and about 6,000 have "matched" or
included the primary suspect.1 The fact that these
percentages have remained constant for 7 years, and
that the National Institute of Justice's informal
survey of private laboratories reveals a strikingly
similar 26-percent exclusion rate, strongly
suggests that postarrest and postconviction DNA
exonerations are tied to some strong, underlying
systemic problems that generate erroneous
accusations and convictions.

It must be stressed that the sexual assault
referrals made to the FBI ordinarily involve cases
where (1) identity is at issue (there is no consent
defense), (2) the non-DNA evidence linking the
suspect to the crime is eyewitness identification,
(3) the suspects have been arrested or indicted
based on non-DNA evidence, and (4) the biological
evidence (sperm) has been recovered from a place
(vaginal/rectal/oral swabs or underwear) that makes
DNA results on the issue of identity virtually
dispositive.

more...

[Fovea]

68. Thank you very much.

Many years ago, I was falsely accused of rape. Not charged, the alledged victim did not go to the police.

She just slandered me among several hundred people in an organization we both belonged to. I found out months later, when someone apologized for their original opinion of me.

When I confronted my accuser, she said that she had not liked my morals or my choice of partners.

For years afterwards, I always had to wonder if the person I was interacting with thought I might be a rapist. Having my whole being reduced to a bestial simile was a pain and a hardship that lasted for years.

OTOH, the backlash that occured when she was finally caught in the lie was harsh. It was a career stopper, at least in these parts.

Bottom line. Despite my past, *I TOO* have difficulties accepting the innocence of a man accused of rape. Why? Roughly five years working in an ER, for starters.

But even with the extreme sympathy I have for rape victims, I have a cold blue fury for false accusers.
Why? Because they abuse emotions and experiences that are atavistic, core traumas in a human life.

[H2O Man]

70. This is an important post,

and an important thread. You are brave to write this. Thank you, very much.

We never lose, as a society or as individuals, when we show compassion. That includes recognizing that we should not blame the victims of crime.

[demgurl]

72. I have tried to pace myself on this thread.

I do want to reply to at least those of you who have also had the same experience. I also feel a need to reply to some other posts. I can only take this thread in spurts because it truly is an emotional drain.

Thanks for being so nice and diplomatic in all of your responses. I wish all Duke threads were like this one. You all are why I like DU so much.

[RhodaGrits]

75. Almost 30 yrs ago, I went to my university's mental health

services because I was suffering from depression, an inability to stay awake, and when I was awake - uncontrollable rage. Why? Because several months before, my father had tried to rape me but I was able to fight him off successfully. (I was a healthy 21 yr old and he was an aging naked alcoholic.) When I told my tale to the university psychologist, he told me my reaction was "normal" and that I didn't need counselling. (!!) Years later, I realized he was in denial and no doubt had issues of his own. I was cynical before that episode and more cynical after. I don't discount anyone's tale of rape but I also agree that a person is innocent until proven guilty of criminal charges. I think women can be sociopaths and liars too but I wouldn't ever want to chance sweeping aside the real wounds of a rape victim. Whether the charges can be proven in a court of law or not, she needs counselling and support from professionals.

[0007]

95. You are right on with you're excellent post. Thank you

A psychologist isn't always the answer, and sometimes can do more harm than good. For the most part good ones can help.

[sendero]

76. I totally agree..

... we don't know really much at all about what happened. People who come to any conclusion based on defense-attorney PR releases and factoids about the incident have an agenda, and that agenda has nothing to do with justice.

I don't have a great deal of faith in our justice system any more. But at least with a trial everyone will get to air their side of the story, and hopefully a jury will be able to see the truth.

In the meantime, there is a lot of divisive speculation going on here, and that's too bad.

[Lefty48197]

77. I am so sorry.

:cry:

[undeterred]

78. Demgurl I am sorry

I was rescued from an attempted rape 30 years ago. I was the luckiest person because my attacker was caught and accused of other assaults. I actually got to testify against him as a character witness and help to put him in prison for 15 years.

After my own experience I worked as a volunteer rape counselor for 7 years and I saw about 100 victims during that time. I was a support person called to emergency rooms. During all that time I never knew of a single rape that was actually prosecuted.

Rape is a very difficult crime to prosecute. It involves sex and no one but the parties involved can established whether it is consensual in many cases. Alcohol and drugs are often involved. There are so many ways in which women who are vulnerable (the mentally ill, mentally retarded, homeless, illegal immigrants, non-English speakers, teenagers, prostitutes, etc) are more likely to be raped and the crime is less likely to be prosecuted. I also saw a couple of men who were raped by other men: a gay man, a homeless man, a mentally retarded man. These broke my heart as much as the crimes against women. There was no justice for them either, and it was very hard for them to talk about.

I was not even raped and I saw justice. But I was a clean cut college girl on her way to church when the assault happened. There could have been many situations in my college years when I could have been raped and the situation would have been more ambiguous. I was very lucky to see the justice system work but I know that in many situations it does not.

[bloom]

108. This is exactly what I think a lot of people are missing.

It's why there were so many people protesting in NC. If enough people in a town were not willing take a stand and say they wanted to see the prosecutors actually prosecute someone - it would be too easy to dismiss. It happens all too often. That and the rapists who get off because nobody wants to ruin THEIR life. gag.

[girl gone mad]

79. This case reminded me of something a friend told me a few years ago.

She was raped when she was in college by a stranger on the street. It was while she was on her way to her dorm. She said that afterwards she walked right by a patrol car and didn't stop. She said she was so upset she probably would have attacked the cops if they had tried to talk to her at that point.

People wonder why a victim wouldn't report a crime right away. I think that when a woman is raped, she isn't thinking rationally and she might not trust any man, especially a man in a position of authority.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

80. Thanks.

For people who have experienced trauma(s), a place like DU can be like a minefield waiting to go off. Only you don't know when or where it will happen.

I usually regret even getting involved in the kind of thread that went on yesterday, and yet find it hard to resist at times.

Bless you demgurl, I hear you.

[derby378]

82. Bless your heart, demgurl

I haven't participated in any of these Duke discussions, but I think something very bad did happen to that woman at the party. I think we all deserve to know what the truth is.

I'm sorry about what happened to you. Just remember that we're all pulling for you.

:hug:

[Hobarticus]

84. Very brave, and thank you for sharing, demgurl...

Your point-of-view is extremely relevant here, thanks for the reality check.

[philosophie_en_rose]

88. Thank you. The Duke threads really sickened me.

Survivors don't come forward because of speculative, hateful threads like most of those.

:pals:

[Festivito]

89. I hope that time heals, friends help, enough is said.

Wish I could write something that would make everything okay. Okay for each of those who express being hurt, and some who lurk, wishing they could, just, anonymously write some story.

My girlfriend's friend: it took time before she would utter words to me, a man. She let me know about the gun in the glove compartment. I would never be able to say enough.

I was scared, my girlfriend was hurt, she was profoundly harmed, all our relationships suffered, due to some guy's insecurity turned into cowardly power. It still hurts.

I hope that time heals, friends help, enough is said.

[helderheid]

90. every woman in my family is a victim of rape. Thank you for this post.

[autorank]

91. I couldn't agree with your more, 100% . Recommended- thread + your advise

Thank you for the generosity and courage to make such a personal statement.

It needed to be said and you said it extremely well.

[Chovexani]

92. Thank you so much, demgurl.

I know it is painful to share these stories but at the same time it does make you stronger. :hug:

I'm also a survivor. I was a victim of acquaintance rape at 16 and I didn't come forward, for the same reasons you didn't. Sadly, in all my years on DU, I've seen this kind of thing happen every time there is a high profile rape case. I guess I'm just too cynical, because I don't even bother clicking on those threads now; it's just fucking exhausting trying to educate ignorant people on this topic and I can't do it anymore.

People just don't understand how endemic this issue is and just how painful it is. Whoever said upthread that rape is the ultimate hate crime is right.

As a working class black woman this is also hitting a little too close to home for me. It's so goddamn depressing to see just how little the lives of people like me are worth to some people around here.

[ms liberty]

93. Thank you for sharing your story...

I know this has to have been difficult for you, as it has been for every woman who has experienced a rape or assault. I'm sorry it has been painful for you...that goes out to all who have been hurt through this.

I too wish everyone would refrain from a rush to judgement. It has been disheartening to see so many people who should know better immediately take positions based on their personal feelings and beliefs and not on facts in evidence.

I would like to hear the FACTS. Right now we have heard opinion and hearsay from everyone with a few facts thrown in; it appears also that the DA has not handled this in a way that is conducive to promoting justice. The whole innocent until proven guilty ideal got thrown out the window too quickly for me.

I don't know what happened, I wasn't there. But some things have been reported and magnified, and other things reported and minimized, and it has clouded the issue, obscuring the facts that are there. It's been a real exercise trying to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. When the story became a national media frenzy, most of the reporting was very pro-victim, and anti-Duke, with lots of overheated characterizations by the talking heads on TV. Then, when other information also started coming out, a lot of people had already staked out their positions. Everyone had their battle lines drawn, and were taunting each other over their respective fortifications rather than communicating like reasonable adults.

I do have some knowledge of the area that leads me to question some of the things that I've heard, things that do make the woman's story and/or the media's reporting of the story less credible to me, at least in terms of her having been raped by the suspects. However, I also have some questions and opinions that make me feel less than charitable toward the lacrosse team, and I know full well that the spin machine is working overtime - on both sides.

I have posted a couple of times to other threads about this, but I quit when it became obvious that some DU'ers were attacking anyone who raised questions about the case. There seems to be an attitude of "you're either with us, or you're with the rapists" from some; that's a false choice, a premise I reject in its entirety. I'll know where I stand when all the facts are known.

If the woman's story is true, I want those jerks responsible tried, convicted, and jailed. If her story proves false, then I hope she gets the help she needs to straighten her life out.

I admire your bravery in telling your story, and I appreciate your giving us a much needed perspective.

[Notoverit]

98. Had no idea what a Duke was until seeing this - why is this at the top?

How much stock do we put in the infotainment we claim to despise?
Why aren't more DU-ers simply tuning out?
I still don't know the details for this case beyond the OP - and I will keep it this way. The on/off & channel changer buttons work fine on mt teevee - first time I ran into this was DU. Imagine that!

[mmonk]

103. IMO, people should stay silent

until the evidence gathering is in. Nobody here knows what did or did not occur. People who jump to conclusions on either side of this issue do not serve the interests of truth finding. As far as the school goes, there's no proof of any collusion in what is a horrible predicament.

[Kailassa]

109. I was raped right through my childhood,

and could never even get acknowledgment of what had happened, despite being made pregnant at 12 years old, and having to agree to kill myself to cover the evidence. I miscarried, so survived, but was hated for that because my parents had used the 2 weeks they'd told me to wait before killing myself to take out life insurance on me. They were going to be able to buy a house with it.

After I escaped from home I was too traumatized to talk to anyone or let anyone touch me, so many people thought I was crazy and retarded. Anger had left me with very fast reactions, so that if someone touched me unexpectedly I would lash out hard and fast before I realized what was happening. I accidentally killed a stranger one night, when he grabbed me on a dark, quiet street. I think he was trying to rape me; he'd jumped out of a doorway beside me as I walked past, and I'd punched him hard without thinking. No-one else saw, so I just kept going.

Many other times I've been assaulted by men trying to rape me, and one boyfriend tried to rape me in his car when I'd said I was not going to be in the mood for sex that night, and then ripped half my clothes off me and threw me out of the car in the middle of a busy intersection, many miles from home.

Only once have I had a man charged over it. He had a black belt in karate and smashed a lot of bones in my head, determined to kill me if I wouldn't do what he wanted. He thought if could force sex on me, my spirit would break and he'd be able to move into my house to live. For me, past experience left me with no choice, I'm tall and sturdy, not all girls are as lucky as me in being able to protect themselves, and I made use of every bit of strength I had. Even though he had left me seriously injured, and some of the injuries I'll never recover from, the defense tried to run it like a rape case, doing everything they could to besmirch my character.

Most of my friends were his friends also, and would never speak to me again. This guy had told them his version first, and they would never believe me, despite my physical injuries being horrible and obvious, and him being sentenced to 6 months in jail.

Reading a suggestion in this thread that rape only lasts for one night, I shake my head sadly. My mother was raped by her stepbrothers, and I think that drove her crazy. I still have physical injuries from both childhood rape and from the times men have attacked me later, and I often look forward to the day when I can put down my responsibilities and be free to escape the long bouts of mental torment by dying. And my daughter needs to cry on my shoulder every now and then about the times she has been raped, and the effect that has had on her.

None of this is going to change while accusing a man of rape is, in itself, so damaging to the woman, and societies' sympathies are immediately directed at the men concerned. The "she asked for it" excuse was old before I was first accused of "asking for it" at 5 years old. And it didn't sound any better when a man in Thailand, a year or two ago, leveled the same accusation toward the dog he was found having sex with on his way home from a night drinking.

[Sugar Smack]

113. Oh MY GOD!!!!

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :grr: :grr: :grr: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

I AM SEETHING RIGHT NOW. Were your parents brought to justice? I'm so mad I can barely SEE!

[Kailassa]

117. No, and my family abused other children later.

We lived in a small country town, 10 miles from the nearest doctor or policeman. The doctor visited the town weekly, and was a weirdo who made women strip naked before he would talk to them. Women in that town went along with it because it never occured to them he might be wrong when he said that was necessary. And it was him that gave my parents tablets to kill me. The policeman was buddies with my father, and would never have believed that I was being mistreated.

I don't believe my teachers would have helped if I'd told them. I think it would have been too hard to imagine that such a thing was happening, especially because my family was a respected one. Back in those days there was no awareness that these things could happen.

I didn't think of it as rape at the time, rape was when strangers attacked you. It was only when my brothers got their friends involved I'd have called it that. Between social attitudes, the fact that this was all I'd ever known and had no-one I could ever discuss it with, and that I had a mild form of autism, I had no way to understand what was happening to me, let alone communicate it. I still feel guilty and see myself as dirty over it.

I tried several years back to at least make a report about it to the police. The police in the state capital refused to see me, although they should have, and the police ombudsman would not make them. So I had to go to the local police station where my father, (the local forest ranger,) was well known, and I spent two harrowing hours being interviewed and making out a report. I was made to wait around on various pretexts for the rest of the day, and finally told my report had been wiped (intentionally). The policeman who'd taken the report looked a bit sheepish, but the others thought it was funny.

[ronnykmarshall]

110. I like how you said "former" victim

That says a lot about you as a person.

Thank you for posting such a powerful message.

[Mandate My Ass]

115. Bless you, demgurl. I was raped and the police grilled me for hours

They asked so many personal questions about my sex life etc. and even though I had witnesses to back me up that I had said no to a pass he made at me earlier in the evening, they said they thought that because I had been drinking, I wasn't sure what had happened to me. They didn't even take me to the hospital to do a rape kit because they said I may have forgotten I'd consented. You can't just cry "rape" and bring law enforcement down on some poor innocent guy.

I used to torture myself reading these rape threads and many statements are made that are very cruel to women in general, and survivors in particular, intentionally or not.

My advice to you is to go to your local Women Organized Against Rape and get into group counselling. Nobody will judge you there and it really helps to talk about your pain with others who've been through it even if their cases go to trial. One WOAR counselor said she thinks that of reported rapes, only 1 in 25 ever makes to trial and the conviction rate is low, even so. So please be kind to yourself and not be harsh on yourself for not going to the police. Everybody has a different reaction and yours is very common and understandable. :hug:

[Samurai_Writer]

119. I had to start hiding all those Duke rape threads

I was date-raped less than a year ago in my own home. There was no alcohol involved, but he was a former pro-athlete, and was good friends with the police chief in the town I was living in at the time.

If I read another "false accusations are just as bad as being raped" post I will puke. My rapist then stalked me until I could move 2000 miles away. I still have not recovered, and probably will never be the same as I was before the rape. I'm not young either, I'm 45 years old. Rape doesn't just happen to teenagers and college girls.

[aikoaiko]

121. yeah, the duke rape accusation threads are sad

If you even lean toward the men, you're painted as a rapist.

If you even lean toward sympathizing with the woman, youre codemning the innocent.

[bliss_eternal]

126. Can we hide any threads?

Or do they have to be threads we've posted to? I've never fully understood the hiding function... :blush:

RadFemFl--check your pm's too. ;)