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So now I have to convince my liberal friends that libertarianism is bunk?

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Stevendsmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 05:23 PM
Original message
So now I have to convince my liberal friends that libertarianism is bunk?
Edited on Sat Dec-08-07 05:34 PM by Stevendsmith
Jeezus, this Ron Paul business.

Excluding its correct opposition to the neocon fascists, the Ron Paul Revolution is an affront to community and to morality. It is naked greed masking as classical American patriotism.

WTF is with all the liberals for Ron Paul? hopping on the creepy pseudo-patriotic grassroots bandwagon of selfishness and nut job black helicopter conspiracies that were once only espoused by Christian militias, white supremacists, survivalists, and other cranks?

Jeezus, as if we didnt have enough problems. Do these liberals for Ron Paul realize that libertarianism is the antithesis of the core principles of liberalism? Or do they knowingly abandon those core principles so easily simply because Ron Paul hates Bush and the war?

How thoroughly disheartening.

Memo to Ron Paul supporters: People take care of people. They form institutions to do this. WTF is your problem with that?

Yeah, like I needed this nightmare to get worse.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. So tell our party to stop supporting Bushco
How many candidates do we have that will end the war and bring ALL of our troops home? All of the troops from all of the bases around the world?

I don't like Ron Paul, and I don't like Libertarians, but as everyone keeps screaming, "Do you want what you want, or do you want to fix the problem?"
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Mojambo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
2. It won't be hard. Libertarianism has so many holes in it it's ridiculous.
Start by pointing out to them that we don't actually live in the 1700's anymore.
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. I've had to have some long discussions with my sister's boyfriend on this
The core of Ron Paul's platform is "States Rights." I have had to point out that "states rights" has been a codeword for racial discrimination for more than a century, first in support of slavery and then (and now) in support of Jim Crow and segregation. Since the late 70s, "states rights" has become the rallying cry for people who would turn women into baby-making machines with no voice and no choice, people who oppose any law that forbids them from beating Jews, gay people or immigrants to death with impunity and people who want to turn public schools into religious indoctrination camps.

So when Ron Paul speaks of "states rights," he really means..... (fill in the blank.)

Point out the implications of his flavor of libertarianism, and the rest is easy.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
4. If they don't realize...
exactly what libertarianism is all about, you won't change that ignorance.

The best thing to do is show Paul isn't a real libertarian, he is 100% Republican through and through, sans the current day blood thirsty warmongering.

Perhaps you can show them this to help them realize...

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul148.html
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IamyourTVandIownyou Donating Member (446 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. Good luck with the BIG govt part of your speech too.
nt
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frogmarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. Libertarians are Republicans who
want to smoke pot.

I saved this from some web source. I don't recall where:

The Libertarian party platform is something of a departure from traditional yahoo crazy ideals, taking its political guidance from a literal interpretation of its name. The word "libertarian" comes from the nonsensical liber, or "freedomness," so Libertarians believe in total and absolute freedom for all people. "If elected, everyone will-" said 2004 Libertarian candidate Michael Badnarik, who then corrected himself, "I'm sorry, I misspoke there. If elected, I will make it so that everyone can do whatever the hell they want all the time, without concern for the laws of man, the laws of God, or the laws of physics. That's what freedom is all about." Many libertarians are anti-religion druggies who never want to be arrested.

And there you have it. :-)
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
7. Progressives should NOT get into bed with far-RW-ers...
whether Bush or Paul.

When people talk about voting for Paul just because he's against the status quo, my heart sinks. Most RW demagogues have got into power by being against the status quo. A good candidate stands for something BETTER than the status quo, not just different.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
8. Your so called "liberal" friends
Imho, are for R. Paul because they know he won't win

and the GOP will never elect him so they want him nominated.

That way, the Dems will win.

They agree with his stance against the war.

They want marijuana legalized.

Oh, and they hate paved roads, clean water and public schools...

Critiques Of Libertarianism
http://world.std.com/~mhuben/libindex.html

Tons of funny and not so funny articles, humor, references and books


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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
9. I would like to invite anyone who wants to have markets free from
any regulation other than market forces to come and see my backyard. Over the past ten years, I was working extremely long, hard hours and just let my backyard grow pretty freely. Oh, we cut things now and then, and I planted some flowers one year when my load was a wee bit less. So, this year, I had some time to regulate my garden a bit. And, guess what, I have a meadow of oxalis back there. Oxalis, it seems, is a very aggressive plant -- tough competition in the marketplace I suppose you would say. Look it up. I may never get rid of it. It is not only invasive, it seems to intentionally attack other plants by directing its tuberous roots directly for the roots of whatever non-oxalis plant is growing around it.

Here is a sample of the plentiful advice on the Internet about how to get rid of an oxalis infestation.

A: Picking off flowers won't help at all because Cape oxalis, a.k.a. Bermuda buttercup (Oxalis pes-caprae) doesn't produce seeds that can grow. Some years ago, Jake Sigg of the Invasive-Exotics Committee of the California Native Plant Society placed a $100 bet that no one could prove the plant grows from seeds in California. Last week, Jake said "some have tried, but nobody has found any seed."

So the good news is that the above gardeners are liberated from the task of chopping flowers. The bad news is that their plants have been merrily forming new bulblets all the time the flower gathering has been going on.

To make any difference, you have to at least break off the entire top of the plant, beneath the place where the leaf and flower stems attach to the main stem. If done repeatedly, it does reduce energy going to the bulbs, and is sometimes all you can do if Cape oxalis is growing among desirable plants, but to really knock it out, you need to dig out or kill the bulbs.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/03/14/HOG5OOJF8G1.DTL

I have thousands of oxalis plants in my garden. I have to dig up the earth and pull and lift each individual plant with its root out of the garden. The other alternative is several treatments with herbicides which I really don't want to start using in a garden area in which I would like to grow food.

So forget about libertarianism and absolutely free markets. Every market has its oxalis. It is as much a part of nature as the sun and the moon. You would not believe the amount of work involved in re-establishing regulation in a market that has allowed to be completely taken over by aggressive, invasive participants in the market.
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