This is just blowing my mind, so I'm gonna repost

[boston bean]

This is a pitcure of Mika Brzezinski's (MSNBC) father with Osama Bin Laden!





http://fufor.twoday.net/stories/2302873/

Did other DUER's know about this?

[SoCalDem]

1. Bin Laden was "our" guy in the 80's.. we trained him, armed him, liked him

pictures like that are no surprise to me :)

[boston bean]

3. I know we did too, but I have learned somethings tonite that I was unaware of.

It is almost unbelievable. But I know it's true.

[dysfunctional press]

57. such as?

what are the unbelievable truths of which you speak?

[boston bean]

58. you're a day late and a dollar short, I can't remember that far back!

especially on a saturday night.

:rofl:


but google and look up brezinski and bin laden, cia, etc. it's all the

[dysfunctional press]

61. is it anything new that's been discovered?

or was it just your first exposure to the same old stuff...? :shrug:

[boston bean]

69. well for instance, I did not know that Zalmay Khalilzad and Brzezinski

were that close back then, but they were and are. I did not realize how long we have been using him. He is a Pashtun Muslim.

I believe he is the ambassador to Iraq right now.

[eridani]

96. In 1996 or 1997, Kalilzad wrote a pro-Taliban editorial for the WaPo

Of course like the good One Percenter corporate shill that he is, he can turn on a dime when necessary.

[OzarkDem]

4. Nearly every terrorist or dictator who has turned against us

was initially trained and armed by us and used for our own purposes to destabilize someone else's government.

[malaise]

46. Bingo n/t

[Cassandra]

9. I think most of our history...

since WWII is blowback from some dumbass idea that someone thought was brilliant at the time. The perils of short-term thinking.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

14. I think you pegged it: "the perils of short-term thinking".

Or, perhaps, even less than that.

Immediate gratification obsession blinded confrontation with,...common sense,...a SURE sense of humanity.

It is a horrifying infection,...what we have become,...as a nation.

Our compass isn't lost. WE are distracted by the masters' consumption, which is most perilous. Our sense of ourselves, OUR COMPASS is NOT lost,...never will be no matter WHAT.

[Shallah Kali]

34. It's thinking 'he's a dastard but he is OUR dastard so it's fine and dandy!'

It is like they powers that be go out looking for the scum of the universe, for the worst, most radical, egocentric proto-despot and SOBs they can find in those situations and funding and training them.

[Cassandra]

53. If they were still thinking that...

'he's a dastard but he is OUR dastard so it's fine and dandy!', we'd still have Saddam in power, since he was certainly a murdering shit but he was more our murdering shit than anyone else in the neighborhood was.

[yardwork]

64. Unfortunately, our behavior in the 19th century was as bad or worse.

Genocide against American Indians, enormous landgrab from Mexico, dirty wars all over Central and South America and the Caribbean. How'd the U.S. get so big? We weren't this big in 1811. We stole it from other people.

[sarcasmo]

18. The reason why Al-CIA-DUH still loves him today.

[superkia]

32. Did you notice that there were talks between britian and the...

taliban a week or so ago, you know...before Bhutto was taken out. Gordon Brown previously told his country that they would not have talks with terrorists and then it was leaked out that they had meetings together? I think its a big world team of evil fucking people all linked together anyways.

[sarcasmo]

33. Exactly and it's why they still love using the boogey man, oops I mean Taliban.

To scare the sheep into submission.

[superkia]

41. I mean, when was the last time a suicide bomber made sure to...

bring his pistol to make sure that more than a message was delivered. They show video where you can see the arm come into the picture and fire? I thought those crazy fucks just blew them self up with everyone around them, I didn't know that they shot random people right before they did it. Crazy!

Pay attention to the comments made by the candidates, the ones that were selling the terrorist card hard are the same ones that know exactly what took place. They are a part of trying to scare us into giving up our rights.

Heres how one of the candidates started out talking about Bhutto:

"The world is once again reminded of the dangers facing those who pursue democracy and free elections in Pakistan and elsewhere, in areas that are rife with conflict and violence and extremism and anti-democratic forces at work."






Atleast the people in Pakistan were rioting a little and screaming that it was their own government behind the government, they could have sat it out like most of us lazy Americans do here when it comes to our rights and freedoms being attacked.The world is in danger from the small % that have all of the money and power and want even more, we have nothing to fear from so called extremists, another cool term the media has us all repeating...we are such puppets.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

22. Are we really so sure he ever stopped being our guy?

...Just askin' -- I don't really know, but I do think when the Berlin Wall came down creative minds went to work at the Pentagon. Perpetual war for perpetual peace is the life blood of our Industrial Military Complex and they simply MUST have some kind of big bad bogeyman with which to frighten the masses, bluff Congress, and secure their gargantuan budget.

Bin Laden would seem the made-to-order candidate -- an isolated and illusive , non-English speaking, brown skinned, Arab nomad, living in mountain caves with his band of forty thieves (terrorists) plotting the destruction of the West.

I think, but am by no means sure, it's a fairytale -- swallowed hook, line, and sinker by virtually ALL of the American public. If they'd cobbled together even a remotely plausible explanation for 9-11 and all the coincidences, then maybe, just maybe...but...

C'mon people, 19 Arabs with box cutters? How naive can we be?

[yardwork]

65. Exactly. Osama bin Laden was on the CIA payroll for a long time. Maybe still is.

[kath]

38. And Saddam was our buddy, too.

[defendandprotect]

99. Brz says in his book we went into Afghanistan 6 MONTHS before the Russians came in.... . . .

"in order to bait the Russians in" ... "in hopes of giving them a Vietnam-type experience."

How insane are we?

[madrchsod]

2. they were all friends at one time......

then daddy bush and the saudi`s let the us military into Saudi Arabia and the friendship was over. another bush fuck up that still haunts us today

[JackRiddler]

72. And you know this is true because?

I mean, you know what each was thinking how?

[Jamastiene]

5. I wish I could find that video of Reagan saying Saddam Hussein was a good guy

It's out there somewhere. I saw it in a documentary on MSNBC. Think about Chimpy's Putin (looked into his eyes, good man) comments, then watch that video of Reagan and Hussein in the White House. Talk about deja vu all over again.

It's a pattern with our government to fund, fuel, and start wars. What big business wants big business gets. It wants a war.

There is a picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein here:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

Oh, buddy, old buddy, old chummy, weren't they?

[libnnc]

6. Fuck. Me.

Kick

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

[OzarkDem]

7. Recall we used to help the Taliban in the 70's

when USSR invaded Afghanistan. Those of us who were adults back then recall the whole thing - the US effort to help the "rebel fighters" in Afghanistan when Russia invaded in 1979.

Perhaps you are a younger person who isn't familiar with this history.

We supplied them with arms, advisors and training, all in an effort to deplete the Soviet military. Worked pretty well, then Russia pulled out and the entire region was left destabilized with lots of military equipment, bombs and weapons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan

[libnnc]

10. I am young (37). But am aware of our relationship.

Just wasn't expecting to see a pic of it.

Rummy shaking hands with Saddam was enough to blow my mind.

[OzarkDem]

13. Well that's when things changed

When Zbig was shaking hands it was in the interest of neutralizing the Soviets and eventually stabilizing the region.

When Rummy was shaking hands it was all about oil.

[tavalon]

31. Yeah, we woke up with surprise on 9/11/2001, but it was a long time in coming

and while no one in those towers in any way deserved what happened to them, the U.S. overall has been overdue for a paddling and continues to be overdue for our next one. We were told that they hate us for our freedom. That's bullshit. They hate us for the underhanded way we support all sorts of evil thugs when it suits our purposes and when those evil thugs don't do exactly what we want, we take them out in as underhanded ways. The rest of the world hates us because we've been so freaking hateful to them!

Recipe for Disaster:

Take a Shah of Iran, mix it with a Noriega in Central America then sprinkle support for tinpot dictators like Saddam Hussein in oil rich countries. Don't forget to train people at the School Of The Americas to go out and torture the world's oppressed populations. Lastly, add just a dash of monetary support for fundamentalist Muslims like the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden because it helps destroy the USSR. Oops, I almost forgot that small planeload of weapons! Stir it up over years, and presto, you have an enraged world just itching to put us in our place.*


* "By the dawn's early light, by all I know is right. We're gonna reap what we have sown." Jackson Browne, 1986

It seems to me that if a singer/songwriter could figure out 15 years before the big blow up, so could our leaders.

[Sweet Pea]

50. You mean Mujahadeen

[lastliberalintexas]

98. No, we helped the Mujahadin in their fight against the Soviets

The wisdom of that is still in doubt as well, but the Mujahadin were not the Taliban. In fact, the Taliban didn't even exist until the early 90s, after the Soviet withdrawal of Afghanistan and in opposition to the Mujahadin. There is some overlap, but they are not one and the same.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

8. "al qaeda" means "the network",...OUR NETWORK

Why do you think he's taken a 180 degree turn? He is NOW (finally) looking back AND forward.

Ideals and greed has gripped many,...blinding them to common sense consequences.

The "forefathers" (of ideals and greed) are now trying to USE US to pay THEIR DUES, THEIR FAILURES in order to hold onto their own supreme sense of themselves.

It would be nice if they would be willing to ALLOW a discussion about how they are driving the engines of countries, here and there. But, they are not 'nice' people. They are not PRO-democracy folks.

[madeline_con]

19. I thought it was "the base". n/t

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

27. Nope. It is, 'the network',...although WAS originally intended to be,...

,...the "base" to expel unwanted buggars.

It evolved into 'the network' of power.

If 'the network' were taken down, there would be peace on earth.

[alfredo]

62. It was the base until bush telegraphed his intentions. It was then

they spread out, made it less hierarchal, and more difficult to fight. They went from a centrally controlled base, to a network of loosely connected organizations.

[Elidor]

11. Zbigniew always hated the USSR with a purple passion

Anyone who fought against them, as OBL did at one point, would be A-ok in his book. He can be very insightful on many aspects of geopolitics, but he always foamed at the mouth where the USSR was concerned.

[pretzel4gore]

28. that nazipooh jackass didn't know what the USSR was?

Brezinski never heard about serfdom? How tens of millions of people lived like pigs, in mud shelters, then worked 16 hour days if they got lucky? How starvation was commonplace, rape and terrifying crimes (one gang famously specialised in jumping aboard moving coaches and beheading the wealthy passengers w/out the team drivers knowing)...does brezinski think the Russian people revolted in 1905 (after Russia lost to Japan in a short, senseless war) for the fun of it, or again in February 1917? Does brezinski know that Czar Nicholas the 2nd could easily have ended the revolution had the brits and french etc simply allowed Russia to drop out of WW1; foolish Nicholas kept his promise to his cousin, the king of england, then abdicated at the worst moment in history? Did brezinski ever hear about hemophilia, or Rasputin? Or Alexandra's German heritage? Does brezinski not know about the Germans shipping Lenin across Europe in a sealed train precisely because Lenin agreed to end Russia's involvement in the war- nevermind that Lenin was the one guy who could hijack the February Revolution- and fukk the human race in the process? How in hell can a sentient human being who knows a bit of history hate the USSR, which was born in despair, and had its revolution hijacked to boot? Doesn't brezinski know about the famine, the civil war, the insane suffering the Russian people underwent? And that was before Lenin was even dead! brezinski is not only a fool, he's a dangerous punk....it's because of punks like him that junyer bush is president of what was once the most dynamic democracy on earth...if civilization collapses, it'll be because too many people gave jackasses like brezinski- who really aren't that fricking smart, as proven by 'hatred' for a section of humanity that brezinski etc simply can never admit wasn't anywhere near as rotten and corrupt and evil as britain/usa ruling classes were and are...

[Elidor]

40. To be fair...

He was born in Poland in 1928. He watched the Nazis and the Communists carve up his country during WWII. He saw the USSR lay claim to his country even before the war ended, with the tacit approval of both Britain and the U.S. Any Pole who didn't like it was told to STFU. They were not allowed to disturb the new hegemony.

[pretzel4gore]

51. so he opted for anglo supremacy?

same with that nitwit pope, jp2....these two-bit goofballs never knew what the bloody dynamic of Stalin's pact with hitler was? (the allies sent a delegation to arrange for USSR defensive strategy, inc. a corridor through Poland, to fight the nazis etc, but the delegation was sent on a sternwheel touring passenger cruiser that hugged coast and would take 2 months to get there, if weather fine- it was long at sea when Poland had already been divvied up... the allies said 'doh'! in that cute lil way they had. Heeheehee. The implications for Eastern Europe's Jewish population alone beggars the imagination) Stalin knew the allies wanted hitler to war with USSR; he mentioned their hypocrisy in notes ...at least part of the 'great purge' had been provoked by the brit ss, who pretended it had dealings with Red Army top commanders, unleashing hell. Stalin killed off his entire officer corp and Red Army unable to do much anyway by '39, but the creepy allies still played cute girlie games with a guy who woulda ate the lot of them for breakfast. Stalin's paranoia is now everybody's
Also, communism had NADA to do with Poland's destruction; the Poles had historically distrusted the Russians, and it was because of this Stalin wanted arrangements made for Red Army to ally itself with Poland to fight hitler, but NOOOOO. It's mind boggling the punks like eden and chamberlain weren't hanged just for playacting while world went up in smoke (btw, the western allies actually had supported the fascists nazis right up until Stalin said fukkit...had the his story unfolded slightly differently, had hitler been just a bit less goofy, the holocaust of Europe's Jewry might have gone into memory hole, like the Armenian one, because the goofball allies woulda been to ashamed of their own role to allow history to be told. Notice the anglo supermen sorta have played down the kipling 'great game' aspect since the horrors of death camps became known, that is, unless you're thinking of james bond great game racist bullshit)
and brezisnski knew all this, but pretends he dumb as a pig?

[madrchsod]

12. ms bhutto helped set up the taliban when she ran pakistan

dick cheney was trying to negotiate a pipeline deal with the taliban. ever wonder about what was in that oil plan we can`t see?

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

20. You know DU. Post sources in support of your assertion.

Has DICK and his corporacrats been trying to RULE economic profits OFF ALL OF THE M.E.?

DUH!!!

DICK IS A CORPORACRAT!

With respect to your assertions that "ms bhutto helped set up the taliban when she ran pakistan",...wtf are you talking about and post support for your assertions,...

please

and thank you, in advance

on edit: also, provide the history of the "taliban" and evidence of how it somehow threatened the destruction of the U.S.A.

:rofl:

[madrchsod]

30. i mis-stated with the word help-link ->

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto
Benazir Bhutto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

in link provided

"The Taliban took power in Kabul in September 1996. It was during Bhutto's rule that the Taliban gained prominence in Afghanistan. She, like many leaders at the time, viewed the Taliban as a group that could stabilize Afghanistan and enable trade access to the Central Asian republics, according to author Stephen Coll.<10> He claims that like the U.S., her government provided military and financial support for the Taliban, even sending a small unit of the Pakistani army into Afghanistan.
More recently, she took an anti-Taliban stance, and condemned terrorist acts allegedly committed by the Taliban and their supporters."

stephen coll......

http://www.cfr.org/publication/8096/
Steve Coll’s Ghost Wars Wins the Council's 2005 Arthur Ross Book Award - Council on Foreign Relations

the taliban never threatened the usa just the neo cons quest for a pipeline across afganistan

[sandnsea]

29. No, she fought it, the ISI helped Cheney

That's why Cheney is pro Musharraf and opposed Bhutto returning to Pakistan.

[NashVegas]

15. Brzezinski Was a Proponent of 'The Great Game'

Only with us playing Britain's role.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game

[Rex]

16. He helped beat the soviets. Embarrassed them pretty bad.

But hey, the guy is nothing compared to a draft dodger and a national guard flunky. Worked for the CIA for who knows how long. Not that the CIA was important to George or Dick. Nope. They smoked him out! Gonna get that varmint.

[madeline_con]

17. OBL was "the man" against the Soviet invasion of AFGH. n/t

[K8-EEE]

21. K&R

Wow thanks for reposting......wacky stuff!!!

[Didereaux]

23. Zbig. Brzezinski was a foreign policy idiot, one of Carters several.

Jimmy didn't get his wisdom until long after being in office, bless his pea-pickin heart he trusted everybody! Took awhile for him to learn otherwise.

[seemslikeadream]

24. Brzezinski: Regret what?

http://www.counterpunch.org/brzezinski.html

Brzezinski: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

Brzezinski: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic , having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

Brzezinski: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

Q: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated: Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today.

Brzezinski: Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isn't a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner and without demagoguery or emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers. But what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries.

[hisownpetard]

66. A face only a mother could love.

[seemslikeadream]

25. Zbigniew Brzezi&#324;ski twórc&#261; Al-Quaidy. Udzia&#322;y Busha i Ben Ladena w Carlyle'u

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=180481

Zbigniew Brzeziński twórcą Al-Quaidy. Udziały Busha i Ben Ladena w Carlyle'u
Usilnie wmawiane opinii publicznej kłamstwo (a i casus belli zarazem!) o związkach Ben Ladena z Husseinem każe przypomnieć o istnieniu jedynego takiego "łącznika", amerykańskiego zresztą: obydwaj byli wspierani latami przez CIA i rząd USA, m.in.również za pośrednictwem obecnego "konsula" Iraku, Paula Bremera, bliskiego współpracownika H.Kissingera (Iraq-gate), notorycznego zbrodniarza wojennego z Kambodży, Timoru Wsch., Chile, Afryki, Iraku, itd., mającego do 1938r. kontakty z Hitler-
jugend, a po wojnie poprzez akcję Paperclip (ściągania zbrodniarzy nazistowskich do USA) - z SS.

Reżim Husajna nie miał żadnych związków z Al-Qaidą i Ben Ladenem, o czym świetnie wiedziały agencje wywiadowcze, natomiast związki takowe posiadał G.Bush i Bush senior poprzez m.in. firmę Carlyle, Harken i.in, poprzez pakistańskie służby specjalne ISI (Mohamed Atta), współpracujące blisko od wielu lat z CIA oraz szkolone w Afganistanie pod egidą Brzezińskiego oddziały mudżahedinów.


Nie ma rodziny w USA, która miałaby bliższe powiązania i na tak wielką skalę prowadziła nielegalne transakcje hadlowe z rodziną Ben Ladena. Rodziny Busha i Ben Ladena prowadziły transakcje m.in. w Carlyle'u (private equity fund) - tzw."klubie byłych prezydentów". Carlyle Group (private equity fund) jest głównym inwestorem AeroSpace Defense oraz jednym z największych na świecie pośrednikiem koncernów zbrojeniowych i petrochemicznych. Jej udziałowcem był do niedawna Ben Laden. O' Neill z Wydziału ds terroryzmu FBI, który szykował w tej sprawie proces przeciw Bushowi sen. i jun. zginął 11.9. w ataku na WTC. Opierając się na b. solidnej dokumentacji prof. ekonomii M. Choussodovsky z Kanady twierdzi nawet, że atak na WTC był najprawdopodobniej "zlecony"; Mohamed Atta, szef komórki pakistańskiego wywiadu wojskowego ISI, ściśle współpracującego wiele lat z CIA, doskonale był znany FBI i służbom wywiadowczym USA. Brzeziński pod egidą Białego Domu, CIA oraz ISI współkreował i dozbrajał Al-Qaidę oraz afgańskich talibów.

http://www.irak.pl/full.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=111050#111502

With an explanation here from another DUer who was kind enough to semi-translate:

marekjed (809 posts) Sat Feb-03-07 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. It's about Bush, the Carlyle Group and the Bin Laden family
I'm Polish. Someone read Crain Unger's "House of Bush, House of Saud", and relates it in Polish. (I recommend that book very highly.)

Please see my other post above. Brzezinski did "create" Bin Laden, in the sense that he's basically the guy who designed the policy of arming the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan, so that they could take on the Soviet Union. The US meddled in the Afghanistan war to give Russia its own Vietnam. The policy succeeded, weakening Russia so much that it started to collapse economically and was no longer a deadly threat to the freedom movements in Poland and other countries of the Soviet Bloc. It worked. Brzezinski was right. The cold war was won.

And now the US and the rest of the world are reaping the whirlwind.

[tavalon]

26. This picture in specific,

or the fact that he was our go to guy for all things anti-Soviet Union in the 80s? Funny thing, we funded him to destroy the Soviet Union through an Afghanistan war without end and now we have the naivete to be surprised when he's doing the same thing to us? And it will work equally as well.

[mmonk]

35. Maybe this will help.

We started all this under the Carter administration. It was to be the Soviet's Vietnam. Zbigniew Brezenski at least called it that and that was part of our strategy. I touched on it a little in this:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/mmonk/26

[rasputin1952]

37. The common thread throughout this entire debacle is the call

for "democracy". precisely what the elements that demand said change do not want. What these people want is the illusion of democracy, freedom or free choice, nothing more, nothing less.

It has been obvious for a long time. The powers that be have created so many odd infrastructures, all in the name of power and profit, that the entire world is enmeshed in one way or the other.

The constant military buildup; the war on drugs that only sends boatloads of money to police depts and areas where little is done w/it but theft and graft; cash payments to Afghanistan and Pakistan where there are no results to show for it; plane loads of cash sent to Iraq, only to be "lost". No outrage from the American public, no shouting from the rooftops, "why are you depleting the Treasury for NOTHING!"

As long as people remain complacent, being told to work harder just to keep their jobs by people who have never worked an honest day in their lives, as long as people sit on their butts and do little more than complain about how little their dollar buys, or don't complain about being poisoned by Chinese food or maimed by inferior toys...we will remain at their beck-and-call.

Worst part is, most people don't even have the faintest idea what is happening...after all, who wants to be called an abettor of "terrorism" or a "fake patriot"?

[kath]

39. Yeppers - the ILLUSION of democracy.

You nailed it. Sad but true.

[yardwork]

67. Corporatism. That's what Naomi Klein calls it in The Shock Doctrine.

It's not democracy. It's corporatism.

[eridani]

97. What the One Percenters want is high school student union democracy

You know, where the principal has the right to overrride any decision.

[Dover]

44. You mean it wasn't Charlie Wilson's war?

:sarcasm:

[UpInArms]

36. here's some background

(gosh - I so love the google cache system)

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:g9-3PJkHgKUJ:www.robertscheer.com/1_natcolumn/01_columns/091701.htm+robert+scheer+blowback+bin+laden&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=us&client=opera

CIA's Tracks Lead in Disastrous Circle
By Robert Scheer
Published September 17, 2001 in the Los Angeles Times


So, we've come full circle. The CIA, which originally helped train Osama bin Laden and many of the other terrorists who have turned against us, now will have its powers expanded to do more of the same.

Of course, the CIA did not traffic with Islamic fanatics on its own initiative but was following a policy proclaimed by President Reagan of support for "the valiant and courageous Afghan freedom fighters."

There's something absurd in the sentiment of congressional leaders, who the New York Times reported Sunday "have concluded that American spy agencies should be allowed to combat terrorism with more aggressive tactics, including the hiring of unsavory foreign agents." When did the CIA stop hiring "unsavory" agents? Like Bin Laden, the CIA recruited "freedom fighters" from throughout the Islamic world to overthrow the secular government in Kabul that was backed by the Soviets.

Bin Laden was no minor recruit to the cause but, given his wealthy father's close ties to the Saudi royal family, was received by the Afghans and Pakistanis on the highest levels and embraced by them up to the days preceding the disastrous attack on the U.S.

Bin Laden turned against the U.S. as a consequence of the Gulf War, when the Saudi leadership rejected his advice to rely on native fighters and instead turned over the country's defense to the U.S. military, which overwhelmed that underpopulated desert kingdom with the bravado of more than half a million troops. The much-proclaimed success of former President Bush's Gulf War, despite the enormous civilian "collateral damage"-a horror never acknowledged in this country-did not topple Saddam Hussein but left a bitter trail of anti-U.S. fervor. When Bin Laden returned to Afghanistan, he found many willing Muslim recruits. Like Bin Laden, those identified as the perpetrators of the recent debacle were raised in the bosom of indulgent Arab oil states that financed their education abroad, including years of flight school for at least one of the Saudi pilots who smashed into the World Trade Center. They're far more skilled than the terrorists of the past.

...more at link...

[AntiFascist]

42. There's a lot more to the bin Ladin story...

GWB had fairly close business relations with the family. Bush Senior split off and privatized parts of the CIA to support the Saudis and helped to train their Air Force. One insider described how he stumbled upon illegal dealings with the Bush family, the Saudis and the Israelis in the mid to late 1980's involving the "laundering of Bin Ladin money". He was made an offer to keep quiet about this, then later his life was destroyed when he decided to go public. Much of what was covered up in the Iran-Contra affair is also coming to light.

Charles W. (Bill) White writes:

They "Deny" involvement even when confronted with incontrovertible evidence, they attempt to "Discredit" the source of the truthful information, and finally, they attempt to "Divert" attention to some unrelated matter. They hide their activities behind the smoke screen of "national security" whenever an outsider gets too close while access, money and self-serving leaking are used to intimidate and control the news media.

I became a target of this methodology when I stumbled upon illegal dealings between the Bush family, the Saudis and the Israelis in the mid to late 1980's. My former business partner, CIA cutout and W. Bush crony James R. Bath got himself in hot water when he misappropriated over a half million dollars from the Bin Laden family, for whom he served as trustee. Discovery in the litigation threatened to unearth bank records showing the laundering of Bin Laden money through Houston banks, the funneling of funds to Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan, and Bath's diversion of Bin Laden money to W. Bush. Politically influenced members of both the Federal and State judiciary who were trying these cases never compelled production of the incriminating banking records or permitted the cases to go to trial. Instead, the compromised judges disposed of the cases by awarding Bath and Bush's bank "death penalty" sanctions and striking my pleadings. I lost my income, my business, my home, my family and nearly all of my personal property because I steadfastly refused to participate in the cover-up. The Harris County District Attorney's office was unwilling to go after the Bushes or the Saudis while FBI, Comptroller of the Currency, and FINCEN investigations were stopped dead in their tracks by Bush political appointees.

[UpInArms]

49. thanks for that - it also was tied into the BCCI

- which I recommend reading The Outlaw Bank: A Wild Ride into the Secret Heart of BCCI

I got copies for several friends on half.com for a couple of dollars each (plus shipping)

here's the blurb:

An unconventional but thorough audit of the failed Bank of Credit and Commerce International, by a pair of Time correspondents whose coverage of the stateless institution's scandalous collapse earned them a slew of journalism awards. Beaty and Gwynne (Selling Money, 1986) offer a four-part rundown on BCCI, the financial establishment of choice for arms dealers, drug traffickers, intelligence operatives, terrorists, Third World strongmen, and other scofflaws. The authors first recount how confidential sources tipped them on the biggest story of their professional lives. They then provide a concise, third- person briefing on the Arab-owned, Pakistani-run bank's origins and off-the-books operating procedures. Chartered in backwater venues like the Cayman Islands to evade oversight by regulatory authorities, BCCI (founded in 1972) resorted to money laundering, Ponzi schemes, secret ledgers, tax evasion, and allied misdeeds in catering to its criminal clientele. An accounting commissioned by the Bank of England finally exposed the extent of BCCI's deficits and offenses, impelling the bank's closing. Resuming the narrative as it unfolded from their points of view, the authors cover how they learned that BCCI was something larger and more sinister than a transnational depository institution. In conclusion, they address the failure of governments everywhere to clamp down on BCCI despite abundant evidence of its corruption. Throughout, Beaty and Gwynne make clear that the bank's capacity to suborn or use pillars of the political community played a crucial role in its success. The ranks of those tarnished include the prominent likes of Lord Callaghan, Jimmy Carter, Clark Clifford, and Bert Lance, while the much shorter list of good guys features Jack Blum (a former Senate investigator) and Gotham's D.A., Robert Morgenthau. The ringside format takes some getting used to, but it ultimately affords as vividly clear an explanation of the BCCI conspiracy as we're apt to get anytime soon.

[AntiFascist]

84. The same money-laundering networks were involved in funding 9-11...

which is why this is still very relevant. People are always amazed at how 9-11 was pulled off, claiming that even our own government couldn't have been that sophisticated. This only goes to demonstrate how sophisticated the multi-national shadow government has become.

Also, the Bush and Clinton criminal dynasties are tied together in this business in the past, so you won't see either Party investigating this very deeply anytime soon.

[UpInArms]

93. carlyle group meeting at the ritz-carlton on the morning of sept 11

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a800bushwhitehouse

Context of '(8:00 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Former President George H. W. Bush Heads off After Spending Night at the White House'

This is a scalable context timeline. It contains events related to the event (8:00 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Former President George H. W. Bush Heads off After Spending Night at the White House. You can narrow or broaden the context of this timeline by adjusting the zoom level. The lower the scale, the more relevant the items on average will be, while the higher the scale, the less relevant the items, on average, will be.

November 1998: Former President George H. W. Bush Meets with Bin Laden Family



Former President George H. W. Bush meets with the bin Laden family on behalf of the Carlyle Group. The meeting takes place in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

Entity Tags: George Herbert Walker Bush, Carlyle Group, Bin Laden Family

Timeline Tags: Complete 911 Timeline
January 2000: Former President Bush Meets with bin Laden Family on Behalf of Carlyle Group

Former President George H. W. Bush meets with the bin Laden family on behalf of the Carlyle Group. He had also met with them in November 1998 (see November 1998), but it is not known if he meets with them again after this. Bush denies this meeting took place until a thank you note is found confirming that it took place.

Entity Tags: George Herbert Walker Bush, Bin Laden Family, Carlyle Group

Timeline Tags: Complete 911 Timeline
(8:00 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Former President George H. W. Bush Heads off After Spending Night at the White House



Former President George H. W. Bush, along with former First Lady Barbara Bush, leaves Washington, DC, by private jet, bound for a speaking engagement in St. Paul, Minnesota. The Bushes spent the previous night at the White House. They had flown to Washington the previous day to attend several meetings and a dinner. One of the meetings attended by the former president was the annual investor conference of the Carlyle Group, which was also attended by Shafig bin Laden, one of Osama bin Laden’s brothers (see (9:00 a.m.) September 11, 2001). They are later informed of the WTC attacks while on their jet. Due to all planes being grounded, they have to land in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

Entity Tags: George Herbert Walker Bush

Timeline Tags: Complete 911 Timeline, 9/11 Timeline
(9:00 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Bin Laden Brother Attends Carlyle Group Conference



The Carlyle Group is a large private-equity investment firm, closely associated with officials of the Bush and Reagan administrations, and has considerable ties to Saudi oil money, including ties to the bin Laden family. This morning it is holding its annual investor conference at the Ritz Carlton hotel in Washington, DC. Among the guests of honor is investor Shafig bin Laden, brother of Osama bin Laden. Former President George H. W. Bush, who makes speeches on behalf of the Carlyle Group and is also senior adviser to its Asian Partners fund , attended the conference the previous day, but is not there today (see (8:00 a.m.) September 11, 2001).

Entity Tags: Bin Laden Family, Shafig bin Laden, Carlyle Group

Timeline Tags: Complete 911 Timeline, 9/11 Timeline

...more with lots of links...

[AntiFascist]

94. Also, I'll never forget...

wasn't there an AP or UPI report about Bush Senior partying on a Saudi cruise ship shortly after 9-11?

[UpInArms]

95. hadn't heard that one - but I will now go off and look for more stuff

'cuz I never run out of curiosity in the quest of knowledge.

:hi:

[killbotfactory]

43. You guys realize that is not Bin Laden, right?

Bin Laden never wore a uniform.

[Poll_Blind]

45. Got woken up by a phone call was up and browsing when I saw this thread.

I don't know which is sadder, that people believe that this is Bin Laden or the time that people assumed that the explosion at Camp Eagle (or whatever it was) in Iraq (an ammo dump) had a nuke go off because they saw an explosion big enough to produce...a mushroom cloud.

This is nothing against you but in my experience there's probably going to be like 5-10 more replies...none of them acknowledging your simple observation. I kept reading responses then scrolling back to the top post with the picture thinking "Why hasn't anyone mentioned...?"

[WinkyDink]

47. According to this caption, he is. And check the pix:

President Jimmy Carter's National Security Advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski visiting 'his boy', Osama Bin Laden, in training with the Pakistan Army, 1981.Photo originally scanned from the New York Village Voice. Photo credited to the Sygma/Corbis Agency, Paris.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wilsnod/68772733/

http://www.geocities.com/RepresentativePress/binLadenphoto.html

Impossible to be this man? They look the same to me:

[MadHound]

48. How do you know?

It actually wouldn't surprise me if Osama did wear a uniform. And frankly that pic looks like bin Laden to me.

But picture aside, the fact of the matter remains that bin Laden was indeed aided and abetted by the CIA and other US interests, and if we had spent a tenth of the money on rebuilding Afghanistan after their war with Russia, we wouldn't have had 911 or al Quaeda.

[pretzel4gore]

52. our western corruption is so blatant, but we pretend to forget

that's really the issue. again and again and again, the trick always returns to the basic notion "we are good people, who make mistakes, yes, but our intentions are honest" and that's plainly not true. We are sick puppies by any standard, inheritors from the death camp organisers of sneaky tricks designed to confound OUR simpletons (the dead in Iraq, or cambodia, or chile, or panama, or zaire, or uganda etc, don't need to be confounded, they're dead) year after year, we're good and our opponents are evil, and anyone who argues the point is a commie traitor druggie etc....But this fact stand out: lies are only reason why these criminals escape justice. Dulles was a criminal, hoover was a criminal, every US president committed crimes, sometimes unwittingly, but still....the Alice in Wonderland aspect of the youngster bush's amazing statemanship careeer is unbelieve-able unless you factor the lies in all the way back....otherwise, it don't make sense...presott bush was hitler's money bagman- in Canada, a goof named karl heinz schrieber is staving off life in German jail by revealing how he delivered money, tens of millions, to rightwing parties in a variety of nations, secretly- former pm mulroney is caught up in the gears now, but the fact nazi money funded mulroney's careeer sorta exposes the entire rightwing success, and has terrified pm harper, who also got nazi money....the nazipoohs are hanging on desperately, buying time in anyway they can (bhutto's murder really nice lil gift from jesus, they're saying over at free republic)

[maddezmom]

54. I'm not sure it is either, when did bin Laden leave Saudi?

I think this pic predates his time in Afghanistan or Pakistan.

[boston bean]

55. It looks like him to me. and here is a pic of him in a military uniform.

[JackRiddler]

71. That is not a uniform.

It's camo, it's military wear, but it's not a uniform. I can buy such a jacket at the nearest military surplus shop and it wouldn't turn into a uniform just because I put it on.

A uniform comes with insignia and clear identification of the force.

[boston bean]

56. here is another pic of him in uniform.

http://www.biography.com/biography/images/episode_images/binLaden_Osama(good)_320x240.jpg

[AlertLurker]

59. Afghan Trap - a la Zbigniew:

Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski from "Nouvelle Observator:"

http://www.counterpunch.org/brzezinski.html

"Brzezinski: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire."

[WinkyDink]

60. Human deaths mean nothing to these evil men.

[yardwork]

68. This is a fundamentally important fact to remember. Thank you.

HUMAN DEATHS MEAN NOTHING TO THESE EVIL PEOPLE.

We need to remember it.

[SpiralHawk]

101. republicon-like thinking & rationalizing - absolutely inhuman

Zbiggy needs four consecutive Purification Lodges, and then 4 nights and 4 days on the hill, and a follow-up 80-stone blast lodge to clear his mind of poisons.

[yardwork]

63. Yes. We armed and trained Osama bin Laden to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.

All through the Reagan years the United States did this. Remember Iran-Contra?

[JackRiddler]

70. It's obviously not Bin Ladin!

It's a Pakistani military man on the border to Afghanistan. The episode of Brzezinski's visit to the border post was well-publicized in 1980.

And it's up to YOU to source this photo, the burden is on YOU to confirm it's Bin Ladin - it does not count if some guy posts it on flickr.com with his own caption, or if 30,000 other people reproduce it uncritically on their blogs (demonstrating why blogs are mostly bunk).

Show the original photo agency attribution and caption.

[boston bean]

73. The photo is sourced to the village voice/NY.

You can read through the posts and find that little nugget.

Although, some people may still be of the mind to not believe it is OBL.

To each his own.

You prove to me it's not him. How bout that!

[MilesColtrane]

74. I say it's Jimmy Carter in one of those Mission Impossible peel-off rubber masks.

You prove to me it's not him. How bout that!

[JackRiddler]

75. Not good enough.

Real sourcing means you link to the original publication (on the Internet) or at the least you provide a DATE and quote directly from the original.

Where's the Village Voice caption calling this man Osama Bin Ladin? That's someone else's later interpolation.

And I am of the mind to believe it's OBL - I wish it was OBL, but I don't go for wishful thinking.

Also, it's obviously not him.

[boston bean]

76. I don't have to prove one thing to you. You can believe you what you want

and I will believe what I want with the evidence that is out there.

Doesn't make me or you right or wrong.

Can you prove to me it is not him?

if not, it's a fair post. what's making you so upset?

[Rex]

77. Interesting, didn't know OBL went by a Western name.

During that time period. Must have pissed the Soviets off getting their butts kicked by a Tim.

[JackRiddler]

81. Here is the source of the "Tim Osman" claim.

It's not a sure thing, though I find it credible that OBL was in the US to shop for weapons at that time.

Nevertheless, the story of "Tim Osman" originated publicly with this article by Orlin Grabbe:

http://www.aci.net/Kalliste/binladin_timosman.htm

Very interesting. The sources are Riconsciuto and Gunderson.

[JackRiddler]

79. Bullshit upsets me, and rightly so.

I know the official story of 9/11 is a lie, that the evidence points to an inside job. I know "al Qaeda" is a largely U.S. funded creation. I take all of that very personally. In our present climate these ideas are hotly disputed, however, and if you want to argue for them, I demand that you use good evidence.

When anyone presents obvious BULLSHIT on behalf of a thesis, they do not help that thesis, they DAMAGE it. They end up discrediting the claims, by association they make anyone else who is making the same claim look like fools.

And no, by any standard of logic: it is incumbent on you, as the one who is making the claim, to provide support for that claim, and not on me to disprove a negative.

[boston bean]

82. Obviously the only good evidence is the evidence you believe in. Take a break man!

you are taking this way to personally. Its a thread in GD for chrissakes.

[JackRiddler]

87. No, you are setting a low standard.

You can run the same picture and ask, "Is this Osama?" But when you say it is you perpetuate low standards of research and I don't care where you do it, it's always unacceptable. There is enough noise on the Web.

[boston bean]

88. did you read my whole thread (post). please read it again.

I was asking if any other duers knew anything about it,

and you come on this thread with a napoleon complex, pushing me around.

I don't like and won't stand for it.

Go bully someone else.

[JackRiddler]

89. Whatever, kid...

So when you hear answers you don't like, you go for the "golly we all have opinions" and "boo hoo I'm being bullied by the truth" dodges.

That's not Osama and there's no reason to think it is.

[boston bean]

90. You might want to go over what you wrote and how pushy it was

you didn't even bother to read my whole freakin post.

Get a life, you lose!

Maybe in another thread we can be friends, but your superior attitude is something I do not find becoming.

I thought this was general discussion, you know where we discuss thing, but you are demanding and pushy.

I won't take that from anyone. Why don't you take a look in the mirror.

Good bye

[JackRiddler]

78. Here's where this myth got started...

You link to the page

http://www.geocities.com/RepresentativePress/binLadenphoto.html

which at the bottom has the rationale for calling this a photo of "Bin Ladin"

http://www.geocities.com/RepresentativePress/binLadenphoto.html#whoisinthephoto

QUOTE:

* The basis for saying these are photos of Osama bin Laden and Zbigniew Brzezinski is that the Village Voice Newspaper printed the larger photo with the caption saying "former friends" and the context of the article being about Osama bin Laden, this suggested that the photo is of Osama bin Laden and Zbigniew Brzezinski. Also, the picture looks like bin Laden. This doesn't mean that this photo, or the smaller one, is definitely Osama. The Village Voice's choice of printing the photo may have been misleading, I haven't been able to verify for sure.

That is a joke of a rationale. Truly embarrassing.

If it was Bin Ladin, the Village Voice caption would have said so, and the article would have made much of the fact that there was indeed a photo of the Brez with Osama. There would have been no ambiguity in the presentation, there would have been a date given. The ambiguity is the proof of the opposite conclusion: that the VV knows this picture is NOT of Osama, and they just want to sex up their report with a pic of Brez's visit to Pakistan and some guy who looks sort of like he could be a short relative of Osama's.

Juxtaposing suggestive pics is a standard trick of senational journalism, and only an opportunistic reader/wishful thinker is going to think the opposite of the obvious (or expect anyone objecting to prove a negative!).

The burden of proof is on the one who asserts a claim!

In this case, the claimant hasn't even bothered to call the VV, or they'd have their verification one way or another.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[boston bean]

83. I can't play the video, whats in it? nt

[Emit]

85. Here's the section of transcript that the video is excerpted from with a link to the whole

It's a short excerpt of Z-big meeting with Afghan soldiers. It shows him speaking and his comments are below:

U.S. National Security Adviser Brzezinski flew to Pakistan to set about rallying resistance. He wanted to arm the Mujahedin without revealing America's role. On the Afghan border near the Khyber Pass, he urged the Soldiers of God to redouble their efforts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRZEZINSKI: We know of their deep belief in God, and we are confident that their struggle will succeed. That land over there is yours. You will go back to it one day, because your fight will prevail and you'll have your homes and your mosques back again, because your cause is right and God is on your side.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRZEZINSKI: The purpose of coordinating with the Pakistanis would be to make the Soviets bleed for as much and as long as is possible.

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0201/01/cp.03.html

[H2O Man]

86. Nope.

It is not.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SpiralHawk]

92. republicons loved and enabled Osama bin Laden

and then tossed him from the bus and made him into their own peculiar Emmanual Goldstein.

[mmonk]

100. Seems to be disagreement about the identity of the man pictured.

In the longterm, it doesn't matter. The truth about us arming the Mujahadeen In Afghanistan under the guidance of Brzezinski is accurate. That was the beginning point.