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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 12:46 PM
Original message
Bush's Tar Baby
{1} "A Pakistani diplomat I talked to at the time acknowledged that the situation was ‘explosive.’ Much of the concern stemmed from the Reagan Administration’s decision to finance many of today’s Taliban leaders in their successful war against the Soviet Union’s presence in Afghanistan. Pakistan was the main conduit for American support. ‘At one time, it was a three-way game,’ the diplomat said. ‘ The CIA, the ISI, and the mujahideen were creating these Frankensteins’ – the Taliban – ‘and now the CIA has pulled out, but you can’t totally destroy the Frankensteins’."
--Chain of Command; Seymour Hersch; page 288

In the hours after the assassination of Benazir Bhutto, I was surprised by what I considered relatively accurate reporting by the corporate media. I had hoped that the democratic candidates for the presidential nomination would participate in and open and honest discussion of how the Bush administration’s policies in Afghanistan and Iraq, and how these have added to the instability in places such as Pakistan.

The differences between the democratic and republican parties has been best illustrated by comparing the insightful analysis of Senator Joseph Biden, with the bumbling nonsensical comments of Mike Huckabee.

The media is reporting that there is some controversy regarding the Pakistani government’s attempts to cover-up details of the assassination. Some of the lies are relatively crude attempts to deny the existence of forensic evidence – the bullets that were used in the assassination might be traced to a sensitive source. But more significant is the attempt of the Pakistani intelligence to blame al Qaeda. The truth is that the Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) and al Qaeda are, to a large extent, one and the same.

Let’s take a closer look at Pakistani politics, the ISI, and radical Islam.

{2} "In 1970 the first ever general election brought to power Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, leader of the Pakistani People’s Party, who introduced constitutional, social, and economic reforms. In 1977, he was deposed, and later executed. The regime of Zia ul-Haq (1977-88) committed Pakistan to an Islamic code of laws. With the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979, over 3 million refugees entered Pakistan. Although martial law was lifted in 1986, with the promise of a return to democracy, Zia’s regime ended with his assassination. A general election in December 1988 brought back to power the Pakistan People’s Party, led by Bhutto’s daughter Benazir Bhutto, but her government was short-lived, collapsing in 1990 on charges of corruption. Bhutto’s successor Mian Mohammad Nawaz Sharif, leader of the Islamic Democratic Alliance, won an absolute majority in the Assembly. His government initiated a policy of further ;Islamization,’ but Sharif himself was criticized for his pro-Western position on the Gulf War. In 1993, Benazir Bhutto was returned to office to head a coalition government, which was again dismissed in 1996, on grounds of corruption. Sharif was re-elected President in 1997. In 1998 Pakistan carried out a series of underground nuclear tests in response to similar tests by India. The military overthrew Sharif’s government in 1999 and placed him under house arrest; General Pervez Musharraf became Chief Executive, then President in 2001."
--Oxford Encyclopedia of World History; 2006; page 482

In order to understand recent events in Pakistan, it is important to have at least a general knowledge of the relatively unstable back-and-forth efforts to grasp and then hold onto political power. It is equally important to recognize that, as noted on page 289 of Hersch’s book, the ISI has been "a parallel government of its own." It is very difficult to have a country with a bifurcated federal government, where there is a public branch that the public sees, and the privately run intelligence community, running a shadow government. In theory, those who advocate and attempt to institute democratic reforms in the public government run the risk of being "removed" from power by the shadow government. (Note: This phenomenon of political assassination is distinct from that of the "crazed lone gunman" – especially those who kept to themselves – who are, in fact, solid evidence of a healthy democracy.)

{3} "You are creating a Frankenstein" – Benazir Bhutto to George H. W. Bush in 1983; from "The Road to September 11"; Evan Thomas; Newsweek; 10-1-2001

It is widely known that the United States backed the Islamic resistance to the Soviet Union’s invasion of Afghanistan during the Reagan-Bush1 administration. A valuable resource for information on this is the Cooperative Research History Commons (a project of the Center for Grassroots Oversight). Let’s look at just a sampling of the documentation found at that valuable sight.

Early in the Afghan war, the US intelligence advocated that Arab fighters be brought in to provide leadership to the factions in Afghanistan. The CIA, the ISI, and M16 provided training for over 100,000 Islamic militants in madrassas, primarily in Peshawar. Some of the leaders were trained in Virginia.

The ISI was responsible for the recruitment and most of the training. They coordinated efforts with the intelligence community of Saudi Arabia.

CIA director William Casey made a surprise visit to the Pakistani camps in the early 1980s. There, he unveiled a plan to teach the Islamic warriors offensive tactics, for infiltrating the Soviet Union, and bringing the war to that country.

Sources include: (1) What Good Friends Left Behind; John Pilger; Guardian; 9-20-03. (2) Anatomy of a Victory: the CIA’s Covert Afghan War; Steve Coll; Washington Post; 7-19-92. (3) How a Holy War Against the Soviets Turned on Us; Ahmed Rashid; Pittsburgh Post - Gazette; 9-23-01. (4) Taliban: Militant Islam, Oil, and Fundamentalism in Central Asia; Ahmid Rashid; Yale University Press; 2001.

{4} "We did spawn a monster. Once the Soviets were gone, they were looking around for other targets, and Osama bin Laden settled on the United States as the source of all evil. Irony? Irony is all over the place." – Richard Murphy, assistant Secretary of State for Near East and South Asia; from "US Next Superpower Foe for Terrorist Leader"; AP; 8-23-98.

During the Clinton administration, US intelligence documented numerous on-going operational links between ISI and the Taliban and al Qaeda. One of the most significant, in terms of current events, is their support of the rebels/terrorists in Kashmir, as this is an area central to the dispute between Pakistan and India.

The Clinton administration had the CIA attempt to coordinate efforts to capture Usama bin Laden in the late 1990s. It is known that President Clinton felt that the ISI was not cooperating in a meaningful way.

Information on these events can be found in several sources, including: (1) Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and bin Laden, from the Soviet; Steve Coll; Penguin; 2004 (see pages 439-478); (2) US Foiled Multiple Times in Effort to Capture bin Laden or Have Him Killed; Barton Gellman; Washington Post; 10-3-01; and (3) Pakistani Intelligence Had Links to al Qaeda; James Risen & Judith Miller; NY Times; 10-29-01 (I recognize that Miller is a flawed source).

{5} "Bin Laden also might have used money to influence Pakistani politics. In this realm, former prime minister Benazir Bhutto – herself a reputed past master of corruption – has accused deposed Prime Minister Sharif of using funds from bin Laden to try to defeat her government. Bhutto claimed that bin Laden sent Sharif money in the 1980s ‘to buy parlimentary deputies for an unsuccessful no-confidence vote to oust her as Pakistani prime minister.’ This claim was amplified in July 1999 when Islamabad paper Al-Akhbar claimed, ‘before the elections in 1990, Osama bin Laden’s friends and relatives gave Nawaz Sharif one billion rupees.’ While there is no definitive proof for the claims by Bhutto and Al-Akhbar, they are interesting. And it is true, at least from bin Laden’s perspective, that Sharif ‘always played an exemplary role in the Afghan jihad,’ while Benazir trimmed and tacked as warrented by her political fortunes and the demands of her close American friends."
--Through Our Enemies’ Eyes; Michael Scheuer; page 176.

In his book "The Osama bin Laden I Know," Peter Bergen has a section where he quotes Jamal Ismail: "Abdullah Azzam was assassinated on the 24th November 1989. Osama was forced to leave Pakistan in the month before that. There was a no-confidence motion in the Pakistan National Assembly against the government of Benazir Bhutto …. to purchase the votes of some members of the National Assembly was given by Osama. Benazir came to know before the no-confidence motion that was raised in parliment that they were trying to purchase some votes from her party members. ….When she came to know about Osama’s role, she called King Fahd and told him that either you call your man from here or we have to arrest him and interrogate him. And we have free media. They will talk and speculate many things about Saudi interference in our internal affairs. Osama went back for some consultation. When he went back, his passport was snatched by Saudi officials and they banned him from traveling." (pages 97-98)

Yossef Bodansky’s 1999 book "Bin Laden: The Man Who Declared War on America" has over a dozen pages about Benazir Bhutta. This includes a section about her attempt to purge the ISI of high-ranking officials who were closely connected to the radical Islamic forces that had been trained by ISI, the CIA, and M16.

In a May 1996 article in the Atlantic Monthly, ("Blowback …") Mary Anne Weaver wrote about how Bhutta had approached Egyptian President Mubarak in 1993. She told him that Pashawar was under the control of the militants, and requested military support to regain control of the city. He turned down the request.

{6} "Afghanistan is our tar baby and we are stuck fast. Too bad the policy-makers who put our soldiers at risk didn’t brush up on their Brit/Soviet/Afghan History 101 beforehand." – No Light in Afghan Tunnel; David H. Hackworth; DefenseWatch; 5-13-03.

Call it Frankenstein’s monster or a tar baby, the truth is that the United States is dealing with forces in Afghanistan and Pakistan that are well beyond our control. The Bush administration sent Benazir Bhutto to try to exert some influence. The forces in question killed her, and now the Pakistani government officials are saying it was al Qaeda. The Bush administration cannot tell the truth, though they know that the ISI/shadow government and the al Qaeda forces involved are a single entity.

President Bill Clinton made an effort to deal with this problem. His efforts were sidetracked when the republican congress was tasked with character assassination. As we approach 2008, our country’s best bet is to elect a democratic president, and a larger democratic majority in both houses of congress.

In order for us to do that, the democratic leadership will need to put their cards on the table, and tell the country what type of Frankenstein we face.

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kansasblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
1.  self delete
Edited on Sun Dec-30-07 12:56 PM by kansasblue
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. (sigh)


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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Those who take a
minute to read the article will note it is from a Lieutenant Colonel David Hackworth quote. For those who are unsure, I will go on the record as saying Hack was not a racist -- though I assume those who can read the article are literate enough to know that.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'm wondering if Bill Clinton had DONE SOMETHING about
Edited on Sun Dec-30-07 12:57 PM by seemslikeadream
Iran Contra would the same players still be around to get us where we are today?


We are watching a rerun and probably know the ending


http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html

My book, Secrecy & Privilege, opens with a scene in spring 1994 when a guest at a White House social event asks Bill Clinton why his administration didn’t pursue unresolved scandals from the Reagan-Bush era, such as the Iraqgate secret support for Saddam Hussein’s government and clandestine arms shipments to Iran.

Clinton responds to the questions from the guest, documentary filmmaker Stuart Sender, by saying, in effect, that those historical questions had to take a back seat to Clinton’s domestic agenda and his desire for greater bipartisanship with the Republicans.

Clinton “didn’t feel that it was a good idea to pursue these investigations because he was going to have to work with these people,” Sender told me in an interview. “He was going to try to work with these guys, compromise, build working relationships.”

Clinton’s relatively low regard for the value of truth and accountability is relevant again today because other centrist Democrats are urging their party to give George W. Bush’s administration a similar pass if the Democrats win one or both houses of Congress.

Reporting about a booklet issued by the Progressive Policy Institute, a think tank of the Democratic Leadership Council, the Washington Post wrote, “these centrist Democrats … warned against calls to launch investigations into past administration decisions if Democrats gain control of the House or Senate in the November elections.”




Sam Nunn, William Cohen GO TO HELL!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2556275






Rodriquez was hung out to dry before, by the CIA


http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004908.php


If you go to Larry Johnson's website, he wrote an article not long ago about many CIA personnel purchasing legal insurance policies. Sorry I don't have the link. The gist of it is, they (CIA personnel) anticipated the lawsuits and bought these policies to protect themselves. Smart wasn't it. If you read Larry's posts you'll see that not covering his legal costs during Iran Contra. He's been down this road before. LJ also speculates that Rodriquez covered all of his bases before those tapes were destroyed. Definitely, he has political/documentary cards up his sleeve, more than likely aces.




Jose Rodriguez Commit that name to memory - Mike Malloy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2549111


COVER-UP: Behind the Iran-Contra Affair:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4755829652615170641&q=iran+contra+cover+up&total=60&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6363522851504883872&q=COVER-UP%3A+Behind+the+Iran-Contra+Affair%3A+Part+2&total=5&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8622796487067551025&q=COVER-UP%3A+Behind+the+Iran-Contra+Affair%3A+Part+3&total=8&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Key point.
Thank you.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. and that could have happened BEFORE the repubs had their way with him
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Exactly.
In fact, that was the only time he could have. It is important in politics, and in all of life, to understand the importance of timing. There are certain opportunities when, no matter if we like it or not, we must make decisions to act .... or that opportunity is forever lost. Another opportunity may come along that looks like it, but it is never the same.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
31. Doesn't the logical outcome of this line of querry lead to 9/11?
With the ISI in Pakistan being the conduit for funding Mohamed Atta to the tune of $100,000 prior to the attacks, I don't see how we don't end up with exactly the same people that were responsible for 9/11, the same goons who have been doing this same crap for decades. But that's just me.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2551079

(I'm not trying to get this topic sent to the dungeon or anything.):hide:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Well
I do not want to discuss 9/11, because this thread would be sent to another part of DU, as you mention. But I agree with you.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
54. Which is also the reason that we DON'T need to ignore lawlessness
from the current republican regime when ...whomever...takes office in 2009. We need to find a candidate who doesn't care as much about their own agenda as they do about the preservation of our constitution, and our nation's moral & legal obligation to insure "justice for all".

Bill Clinton (for not following up on Iran-Contra), Pelosi & Reid (taking impeachment off the table) have set a LOUSY example for the Dems, and for the entire future of our country, IMHO.
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #2
45. K&R
Yet another very informative post by H2O Man!
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
5. I suspect that the apparent "openness" of the media in the early
hours of this crisis are because of the upcoming elections. No one with control over a media outlet knows which way to jump, yet. They are not sure who or what to put their muscle into.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. I've been surprised
that they have had as much coverage of the events surrounding the assassination as they have. However, it seems that some are trying to convince Americans that this is "proof" that the nation needs to turn to Rudy G or some other conservative candidate. In fact, if our country is going to deal with the mess that the Reagan-Bush1-Cheney administrations have created, we need to move in a very different direction.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. We will never convince the right-wingers to do change their methods,
until we show them that we've caught them redhanded doing illegal things and those "things" are the cause of our present demise. Until then, until they are convinced that they can not continue breaking rules without suffering consequences, they will never see the cause and effect of their actions. And the longer we delay in proving their culpability, the sooner we'll get into stage two: They will keep saying that America is always right, even when it isn't, and to suggest that America is wrong is unpatriotic.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. it's actually proof that their methods do not work.
recommended
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Bingo. What you said.
As I said in another thread:

With MSM smelling a shift in the air, maybe they'll start doing their jobs more reliably. This election cycle can go many ways...it can become a glut of noise, confusing the masses further, or REAL issues can come to the fore, with legitimate investigative journalism exposing the root causes of these issues we face today. There have been legitimate journalists all along, but their voices have been squelched, as we all know here at DU. Perhaps - even if it's initially for $$ reasons rather than altruistic ones - the MSM can return to being the Fourth Estate.

Reversing the corporatocracy is our only hope, and I realize it's a HERCULEAN struggle at this stage, but it's one that must be undertaken.

I realize many here don't believe it can happen, but without the hope that it can, I'm not sure how to continue. For those without this hope, I'll have hope that things can change on your behalf until you can reclaim it yourself.


:hi:

(I copied from the "Stephen King calling out media" thread)
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
8. It seems apparent to me that the CIA and the word 'intelligence' have
very little, if anything at all, in common. They fuck up everything they touch. And you can always tell where they've been by the trail of blood and bodies. Central America, South America, South East Asia, the Middle East. They've left their bloody foot print everywhere. And for what? No good that I can see.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. that's because they have hidden the money.
your tax dollars go in the front door at the pentagon, and arms destined for the black market, for use in ginned up phony wars, come out the back. a few clowns like richard secord and ollie north pack the boxes and cash the checks. i guess money and good are not the same. but that is the purpose.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Add to that
the other US intelligence agencies -- because the CIA is only 15% of the entire intelligence community. In the NIE on Iran's nuclear programs, for example, the CIA was one of 16 agencies that made the evaluation.

Oversight of intelligence agencies is on a scale from "too limited" to "nonexistent." An example that stands out is the Office of Special Plans, created by Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, which would become particularly out-of-control after 9/11.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. good point. i just mentally lump them all together.
nsa, die, the whole alphabet soup that we know, and that we don't know. i often just refer to them as "the ia-s". a swamp. a regular frikkin swamp. full of tainted, blood covered money.
the secret government.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. One of the things
that I find amazing is how these agencies have openly taken lead positions in the media. When I was young, it was known that someone in every corporate media was an agency representative. (And, of course, there was the same set-up on every college/university campus.) They were usually in a behind-the-scenes position. They watched things, and they influenced some of the presentation. But today, they are the network experts, at least one show's host, and some of the top reporters.
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
13. Mucho thanks for all that!
I'll file it away for further Googling for greater detail. Here's a website I had spotted earlier on DU, that might tie-in with some of the above: http://fufor.twoday.net/stories/2302873 I haven't gotten around to Googling it yet, but it sure looks "promising"!

pnorman
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
14. K and R
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
16. This goes with a recent DU posting...
...about how Reagan and Bush clandestinly helped Pakistan develop a nuclear-weapons program so that Islamabad would continue to allow the US to send money and weapons to Osama Bin Laden and his radical fundamentalist Muslim warriors.

Technology that had duel-use capabilities and that was specifially forbidden to be sold to Pakistan were purchased by Pakistani "undercover" agents, then the somebody in the executive branch would override the federal bureaucracy that put a hold on the purchase.

Pakistan has nukes because we helped them get them so we could support a wealthy fundamentalist Muslim radical and his religious warriors in a guerrilla war.

And now we're facing the threat from loose nukes AND those same radical fundamentalist Muslim religious warriors, both situations a DIRECT result of Reagan and Bush.
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Heaven forbid war and unrest would end.
They would have come up with a whole new farce designed to fleece the coffers of the nation.
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
19. Will the truth out?
K & R for a very insightful expose'.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
33. I cast another vote for the truth
Edited on Sun Dec-30-07 04:34 PM by SpiralHawk
not that the republicons are in any way capable of that...

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. "Big Lies"
is a great book!
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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
20. K&R n/t
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
21. Thanks for expanding on the topic.
Edited on Sun Dec-30-07 02:35 PM by formercia
A great researcher, as always.


I was there. It's funny, how, when you're in the trenches, you never see the 'Big Picture.' Compartmentalization is an effective tool for isolating those involved and not letting them see what a can of worms they're involved in. It's only later that all the bits fall in place.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
22. Tar Baby: my have times changed at DU

Not to long ago it seems like half of DU was swearing up and down that the phrase was racist when Tony Snow used the literary reference appropriately.

I'm glad to see that they learned their lesson.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
26. "Tar-Baby"??? YUMMO
:popcorn:

Lots of popcorn-worthy threads today.

For the record: I do not think the term "tar baby" is racist, nor is there any real reason to, but some DUers think so, and there have been popcorn-worthy threads about it in the past.
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Pass some of that over here
I agree with you, but I remember the Tony Snow Tar Baby-gate.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Here you go, I just made some more
:popcorn:

Yes, "Tar-Babygate" was a Top Ten Popcorn Thread.
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. I'm going to add it to my list with
breast feeding, circumcision, Olive Garden, Smoking, oh and kids in restaurants.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. You forgot asking for receipts at stores
But, that's a good list!
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Oh, receipts at stores
I forgot Circuit City!
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #27
46. Me too.
And it put me in the position of having to defend Tony Snow. Aaarrgghhh!
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
36. Shadow Governments Are A Curse For All Of Us
BMOC who think they should be the ones who determine who the world should be. Yet they can never get beyond using violence to achieve their means. Their lack of creativity is killing.

It's being widely reported that Bhutto's son will run in her place. Whose bright idea is that, to send a 19 year old to take her place? Ours? A figurehead we can manipulate?
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
37. Another great post H2O Man
Thanks
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
38. Sure answers my question about why they would lie about the exact cause fo her death.
Some of the lies are relatively crude attempts to deny the existence of forensic evidence – the bullets that were used in the assassination might be traced to a sensitive source.


The monster/s that the US and CIA created in Afghanistan while fighting the Russians has certainly come back to wreak havoc on those that were involved, and sadly, even some who were not.
The entire planet is paying the price for that short-sighted piece of political strategy.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Yes.
The situation poses threats to people who simply want to live their lives in peace. The US helped created a force they felt they could control, and now they find they have difficulty even influencing it.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #40
55. Pet Peeve: U.S. treats Muslim nations as if they just fell off the turnip truck.
Our collective western stereotype of Muslim nations is that they're all backward, ignorant, easily-manipulated third-world cultures that are just recently liberated from spears and loin cloths.

Muslim nations, Muslim armies, have kicked western ass around the block in centuries past. They gave Greek & Roman armies hell. They kicked the european crusaders out of Jerusalem. They kicked the English out of Iraq. It is complete hubris and ignorance on the part of (Reagan, Bush I, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush II) that we can move Muslim nations around like pawns on a chess board. The Muslim nations have been like a dormant volcano for centuries.

Until Reagan was infiltrated by the bush/nazi regime, American leaders were actually pretty well educated: They knew to stay the hell out of mid-eastern politics for the most part, and only play a peace-keeping role when necessary, and promote fair trade when they could. But they knew to walk softly, for the most part.

Providing Pakistan with the bomb was a "seed" event that Reagan/Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney planted, and that seed has grown into a monster with many tentacles (A.Q. Khan, for example). What in the hell were they thinking beyond the initial corporate profits? They act as if their actions are isolated incidents, and not actions of historical importance with centuries of history as a back-drop, and centuries of the future to come as a consequence.

Republicans are NOT fit to lead any damned thing. And that includes the republican infiltrators into the Democratic party (Clinton, DLC). The nazis that planned to assassinate FDR have never given an inch of ground, and have continued to this day to try to take over the world, as was their true leader's dream (Hitler). There has to be a contingent of power brokers who never got over the Muslim nations kicking their asses so many centuries ago.



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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
39. another kick....great post...
and we've fed frankenstein's monster 10 billion dollars..


:kick:
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
41. That'll be the day...

too many of our congresspeople probably make too much income from Afghan heroin.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
42. Benazir Bhutto Tried To Hire Private Security Firms Including Blackwater
http://washingtontimes.com/article/20071230/FOREIGN/542639205/1003

Also, what do you think about her statement regaring Usama Bin Laden?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
43. US set the Russians up . . . Brez says that WE went into Afghanistan 6 months BEFORE
Russians came in . . . "in order to bait the Russians into Afghanistan" . . .
"in hopes of giving them a Vietnam-type experience."

How's that for insanity?

And, I wonder if we have anything to do with what was happening in Chechyna --- ?
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. Thanks for reminding us it didn't start with Reagan - it began under Carter.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #47
56. Yeah -- that's a really confusing part of this BS . . .
You can see that the CIA tail was burning over Vietnam . . .
and what they wanted was revenge and PR to make them look better for their failed "perpetual-war"
in Vietnam...

Carter, I can't figure --
On the one hand, I believe he's tried to be honest --- tried to tell us things that they wouldn't let him speak about. He sat in one TV appearance talking to America where you couldn't hear what he said for a 15 minutes or more!! Think it was something important---?

Also, we had the October Surprise going on right under his nose and his administration didn't wake up to it until they were out of office --- ????

And that death in the desert re the attempt at a hostage rescue?
How many helicopters went down cause they didn't have an attachment that would have blocked the
sane from clogging the engines???

Not believable . . .
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. 4 copters were needed for the rescue. Carter set up a plan using 8. 5 crashed. What a cowinkydink.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. Think those were accidents --- ?
The "October Surprise" would would have failed had the rescue plans succeeded ---
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 01:50 AM
Response to Original message
44. Top notch
Top notch describes not only your posts, but you as well. Thanks again for another excellent post & thread. :thumbsup:
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 05:19 AM
Response to Original message
48. All I had to see and know was...
Edited on Mon Dec-31-07 05:23 AM by DCKit
"….When she came to know about Osama’s role, she called King Fahd and told him that either you call your man from here or we have to arrest him and interrogate him. And we have free media. They will talk and speculate many things about Saudi interference in our internal affairs. "

THIS is the woman we're supposed to believe was corrupt? It is my belief that we lost the best and most honest politician that has ever graced the world stage. Just sayin'. Personally, I'm heartbroken.

On Edit:

Thanks again H2O, you give respect to the true meaning of curmudgeon, you filthy old bastid.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
49. K
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happygoluckytoyou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
50. BUSH DON'T USE THE WORD "TAR BABY"....STILL SAYS N!@@3&
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. It's a literary reference that means "sticky situation."
Unfortunately it derives from Joel Chandler Harris' Uncle Remus stories which have come to be virtually synonymous with racism. Sadly. Because the story itself is from an original African folkloric theme of the trickster. Bugs the daylights out of me that a useful literary metaphor has become a racist slur.
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rockybelt Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
52. For this Congress to put their cards on the table
is simply an impossibility. They are holding aces and eights. The "leadership" of both Houses has more or less aligned themselves with bushco and has in fact been complicit with some of the crimes committed by this administration-regime. for them to lay their true hand on the table would be to indict themselves and they are not going to do that.

I fear that it may be too late to reverse the damage done to this country in the last 15 years. At least it cannot be corrected by staying with the status-quo. Radical changes must be made to the political atmosphere of this country if the trend of self destruction is to be reversed.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
53. so that sort of confirms that Nawaz Sharif is not much better than Musharraf
Thanks for your hard work and well documented posts as always H20 Man.
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