why are the unions backing a union buster?

[unapatriciated]

Explain to me why she is the candidate of change? How can she support the working class and unions when her top aid is a long time union buster and a strategist for centrist candidates. Someone please explain how she is looking out for my best interest. If you lay down with dogs, you wake up with fleas.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/ny-ushill1213,0,2146646.story

DES MOINES - On the eve of the final Iowa debate before the Jan. 3 caucuses, Clinton campaign insiders are increasingly questioning the cautious, poll-driven approach taken by Mark Penn, Hillary Rodham Clinton's top political aide, sources familiar with the situation say.

With Clinton barely holding her own against Barack Obama and John Edwards in Iowa, dissatisfaction is growing with Penn, who some say has mistakenly run Clinton as a de facto incumbent.


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/05/us/politics/05labor.html?ref=politics

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Mark_Penn

In mid-2007, the dual role of Mark Penn as the CEO of the PR firm Busron-Marsteller and chief strategist for the Democratic Party's Presidential aspirant Hilliary Clinton, irked some labor leaders. The New York Times reported that labor leaders Bruce Raynor of UniteHere, and James Hoffa of the Teamsters union, wrote to Clinton expressing their concern about B-M's anti-labor work. "He cannot serve two masters, working for a pro-union candidate and working for anti-union companies," Teamsters President Jim Hoffa said.

[msongs]

1. unions are backing Mark Penn?? Evidence that Clinton herself is a union buster? nt

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[unapatriciated]

8. What has my length of time on DU

have to do with my concerns of Clinton's top advisor being a union buster and no friend of the working class. If you actually discussed the issue maybe you might understand my concerns. Instead you prefer to call names or hint at something more vile. Just so you know who I am and what I'm about I'll give you a brief history of my voting record and activities since the late 60's never missed a general election always voted D, always voted D in local elections, protested against the Vietnam War, have attended many peace marches and rallies for this latest little war and have been writing letters to Congress, Senate and WH since 1991 regarding Universal Health Care. Oh I forgot to mention during all that I took care of a very ill child and raised three other children working two and three jobs. So I'm sick and tired of people questioning my party loyalty because I have concerns regarding policies or advisor's. Now if you are open to an adult conversation I'm willing to listen.

[davsand]

10. Your length of stay here has zero relevance to the discussion.

Don't let it get to you. This kind of crap happens whenever anyone pisses in the wrong Cheerio bowl. (I love it when they try it with me because I piss people off sometimes and I've been here since 2001!)

Anyhow, Primary time is not the most congenial time here, so please forgive the lack of welcome.

Welcome to DU even if it is a bit late!


:hi:

Laura

[unapatriciated]

19. Thanks for the welcome

:hi:

patty

[Skidmore]

12. Well, if you'd prefer someone who has been here longer to say the same thing...

I'd be happy to oblige.

[LostinVA]

11. Nope and nope

[Le Taz Hot]

21. Make that three.

:evilgrin: To the Noobie: Welcome to DU! :hi:

[unapatriciated]

22. thanks I'm new to posting on DU

but old to politics been voting and supporting the Dem's and progressive views since the late 60's the old fashioned way by letter writing and knocking on doors.:hi:

[Missy M]

3. Please tell me what unions Hillary Clinton busted.

[unapatriciated]

5. It's not Clinton I'm bashing

As a long time union member grew, up in a union household...I truly want to understand why she would have Mark Penn as her top advisor. He is a union buster and there is no way around that. Did you read the links? I had very high hopes for Clinton but don't like the company she keeps and I'm not the only one. I want very much to regain my belief and trust in her but there are some serious issues that need to be addressed. So if you have answers that I'm not aware of please let me know. If you are just interested in name calling than you are part of the problem not the solution.

[davsand]

9. Actually, her (and Bill's) association with Walmart is pretty well known.

http://industryprofiles.suite101.com/article.cfm/walmart_and_sen_hillary_clinton

Walmart and Sen. Hillary Clinton
Hillary Caught with Hand in Walmart Cookie JAr
© Tom Darby

Jan 24, 2007

Hillary Clinton fails to let public know about connection to Walmart
Nothing makes a liberal more mad than the success of Wal-mart. But has anyone told them about Sen. Hillary Clinton’s, D-NY, connection to the corporation. She has never fully explained it even though she is more than willing to go out and bash the corporation at Union rallies for not providing better health care to its workers.

The truth of the matter is that Sen. Clinton was a board member to Wal-mart for six years and that the Walton family played a huge role in her husband’s political career. For this help Arkansas Gov. (and later President) Bill Clinton assisted Wal-mart when it came to the free trade agreement known as NAFTA. In addition, Sen. Clinton’s Rose Law Firm even handled much of Wal-marts legal defense...


That particular author seem about as GOP-centric as it gets, but the point remains that you CAN fact check him and find corroboration.

Walmart is well known for being just about as anti-union as it gets. They are known to FIRE anyone that works for them that supports unionizing. (Literally, they closed a store where the meat cutters organized and were recognized by the NLRB!) I will also tell you that I had the experience of a Walmart store manager threatening to tow my legally parked car due to the pro union bumper stickers on it. (He thought I was trying to organize his workers I guess.)

----

As with anyone, you will form your opinions and vote for a particular candidate based on whatever is important to you. For me, Labor is important, and I do look at candidates' history on Labor and labor related votes.

Regards!



Laura

[Missy M]

15. Sorry but this same old Walmart stuff doesn't cut it...

did Hillary Clinton bust a union at Walmart. Of course not.

[Egalitariat]

16. Did Wal-Mart employees attempt to unionize when she was a Director?***

Were they successful? How much did she help them?

[unapatriciated]

18. yes, no and not sure

[unapatriciated]

13. please read # 8

and the links, If Clinton gets the nomination I want to support her with a clear conscience, knowing that she will break the strangle hold large corporations have put on the working class. I don't want more of what we already have. She is a smart and competent woman and I can not understand why she has Mark Penn as a top advisor nor why she insist on keeping the Insurance Companies involved with our Health Care. I would hope all her supporters would feel the same and work towards getting her to change some things in her policies that do not have our best interest at heart.

[Missy M]

14. I read number 8 but it still doesn't tell me....

which unions Hillary Clinton busted.

[unapatriciated]

17. Well If I need to spell it out I will

The head line was a grab. My op clearly stated that Mark Penn was the union buster. She does have a large share of union support and I really would like to understand why she would use him. He has a long history of being against Labor and union busting. I want to believe that she is concerned about the working class and the destruction of it since the Reagan years. But it is hard when she uses advisor's like Penn. I'm a long time union member and supporter so I have real concerns regarding this and her policies on NAFTA. Her health care platform could use some revising too. She is a smart woman and could do better. I guess I'm just longing for the Hilliary before she lost her dream.

[davsand]

20. I assume you realize how BAD for workers NAFTA was--right?

I mean, even Hil has backpedaled from it during this campaign, so I am assuming here that we are all in agreement that NAFTA was not in the interests of working men and women in the US. It killed jobs across the entire nation and opened the door for any number of unionized companies to shut down union shops and move them to places where unions are not--like Mexico.

Say what you want in support of Hil, but I would urge caution about taking any pro-NAFTA crap on the road to places where entire plants were shut down because corporations can make more when they don't have to bother with the minor stuff like workplace safety or a living wage. (Be sure and tell it to the union guys in shuttered Illinois and Michigan union shops if you want a REAL response...)

Anyhow, if you don't think the Walmart stuff is a problem for Hil, then how about the idea that while she's out there on the campaign trail saying she thinks NAFTA is a problem (remember--that was Bill who left that as a legacy) she is also out there supporting EXPANSION of NAFTA.

http://commonsense.ourfuture.org/breaking_clinton_announces_support_nafta_expansion


Has she ever walked in amd shut down a plant by her lonesome? Couldn't say--don't really give much if a crap. Has she done jack shit for Labor? Hell no, and she refused to even hire a campaign adviser that had.



Laura

[eridani]

25. Mark Penn, her campaign strategist, busted them

Why does she work with scum like that?

[ngant17]

4. actually I thought you were talking about Edwards from NC

North Carolina being a "right to work (for less)" state, I would have some doubts about casting a vote for Edwards.

I would think that Illinois and New York are better places to be than North Carolina, if you are pro-union. Based on that logic, Obama and Clinton are better choices than Edwards.

[unapatriciated]

7. actually I'm a Kucinich supporter

I began as a Clinton supporter but started having problems with her policies and Mark Penn being her top advisor. I know all about right to work states and living wages as I stated up thread I grew up union. I truly don't understand why she would choose him or why President Clinton used him. She is a very smart woman and could and should choose better advisors.

[demosincebirth]

24. Edwards has the support of many unions.

[davsand]

6. Well. she sure did hire a guy not beloved by Labor.

I have to agree with that point. Makes no sense to me when ANY Dem candidate ignores Labor, but maybe my problem is rooted in the fact that I am Labor...

Anyhow, I have not forgotten (nor forgiven) the passage of NAFTA which happened while Hil was gaining her much vaunted "experience" as a First Lady. That might explain why I have remained less than thrilled with either the Gore or Clinton names because that single bit of legislation (that they ALL stumped for) screwed Labor and the entire US hard. I can't think of a worse piece of legislation for American workers except for maybe Taft-Hartley.

Hoffa nor Raynor have little love here--so I don't look for this to pose much of an obstacle for the Hil fans.


Regards!


Laura

[lame54]

23. K&R

[ngant17]

26. Current union endorsements

I don't know if the Mark Penn stories are hurting Hillary too much as far as union endorsements are going.

--------------------------
Among Democratic presidential contenders, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (N.Y.) has garnered the most support of labor union members, with another union endorsement this week pushing her total up to about 6 million members....Clinton has endorsements from 13 national unions with about 6 million members, compared to Edwards, who has endorsements from four national unions with a total of more than 3 million members.

<http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/by-the-numbers-clinton-wins-the-labor-battle-2007-12-20.html>
-------------------------------

at <http://www.openleft.com/>

here is their most recent union endorsement scorecard:

Edwards: United Steel Workers, United Mine Workers of America, International Brotherhood of Carpenters. 2.3 million combined members.

Clinton: United Transportation Union, International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers. 800,000 combined members.

----------------------------------
Union support tends to be going to Edwards or Clinton, although it is hardly unanimous.

Unite-Here will probably steer toward Edwards.

SEIU, Edwards.

AFSCME, one of the nation's largest unions (& my current union), is endorsing Hillary.

American Fed. of Teachers, Hillary.

United Transportation Union, Hillary.

I don't see ChangetoWin.org making any specific endorsements yet.

Union endorsements won't necessarily predict the outcome of the race. But it's nice to have them.

Don't forget that Bill Clinton supported NAFTA. And so did his Labor Sec. Robert Reich.

[unapatriciated]

28. Yes I know she is in the lead with union endorsements

but that doesn't help me understand why she would use Penn. Clinton tried to explain why NAFTA was good for us but long term union members like my father knew different. Given the failure of NAFTA and her wanting to extend it to include Peru, worries a lot of us. She may get union endorsements but runs the risk of losing the membership vote in primaries. Just because they endorse doesn't always mean the membership will vote for her.

[davsand]

31. Endorsements carry some cash and some volunteers but they don't always deliver votes.

I dunno if you have ever been at one of those endorsement sessions, but if you have, you know as well as I do that sometimes it is more a matter of WHO is present rather than what the will of rank and file actually is. It also can come down to what kind of promises have been made prior to the session (however that kind of stuff works ONE time if you don't deliver on what you promised.)

Endorsements are good to have, but they don't guarantee the votes are there. (How many times have you seen a local that had 100% agreement on ANYTHING--let alone an international...) Locally, I know several active Republicans that are Labor folks--it is pretty common actually--and you know those folks will not vote based on an endorsement from the international.

I can't say I think it is only a matter of the higher ups being "out of touch" with rank and file. I honestly think that union membership is much more diverse than it was in the early days. I'm not sure just how much the trades actually have in common with the professional service folks. We all share some common goals--yes. We also have some things that are peculiar interests based on who we are.

I suspect the Mine Workers have a different level of urgency about workplace safety than maybe AFSCME would. It isn't that it is unimportant to anyone, but for some it is literally a matter of life and death. When you have that diversity in interests, I think you will never have complete accord within Labor as a whole.

Regards!


Laura

[Yuugal]

27. I can tell you why some unions support Hillary

Its because their leadership is just as distant from the rank and file as Hillary is from your average working class person.

[unapatriciated]

29. true

but we don't have any trouble voting them out when they get too distant and we don't always vote the way they suggest either.

[Perry Logan]

30. Because unions are stupid? Just like the African Americans and gays who support Hillary are stupid?

[unapatriciated]

32. did you get my thank you on another thread?