Should I be a "Vietnam Spit" denier?

[El Supremo]

Pickett's Charge In a 1971 CBS News clip, Vietnam vet Delmar Pickett Jr. describes an airport spit incident.
By Jack Shafer
Updated Tuesday, March 6, 2007, at 6:50 PM ET

Were veterans spat upon as they returned from serving in Vietnam? When Holy Cross College scholar Jerry Lembcke studied the allegations for his 1998 book Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam, he found no evidence to back the claim.

Since 2000, I've been using this column to track Vietnam vet spit allegations as they appear in the press, and have found nothing that contradicts Lembcke's basic assessment. On Jan. 30, when I wrote a column criticizing a current Newsweek story that offhandedly asserted that vets had been spat upon as if it was established fact, I asked readers to forward to me accounts from the Vietnam era they found reliable. On Feb. 5 and Feb. 12, I published pieces that looked at newspaper stories everybody's research had unearthed.

The news stories undermine Lembcke's belief that the spat-upon-returning-vet meme didn't really start circulating until about 1980, but none documents a spit incident with any specificity. I still believe the stories deserve the "urban legend" status assigned to them by Lembcke.

But a spit tip offered by reader Kevin Bowman proves difficult to dismiss. Bowman sent me a link to the Television News Archive at Vanderbilt University that describes a segment about returning veteran Delmar Pickett Jr. from the Dec. 27, 1971, edition of the CBS Evening News. The abstract to the segment reads:...

http://www.slate.com/id/2161038?nav=tap3

[fishnfla]

1. ask tahitinut, he'll tell you

It happened to him, he'll tell you. But also I think he is getting weary of the story.

I myself think there were isolated cases, but not like big "spit-on -athons"

[Monkeyman]

3. It not isolated I was spit at and called a baby killer

being spit at is not being spit on but it did happen. In a Chicago Airport going home. Let me make it clear Vets who said they where spit on I bet it was like what happen to me spit at no were's near being spit on

[TahitiNut]

29. Yes. "Weary" doesn't even begin to describe it.

:grr:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/11
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/372

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. Ever been to Disneyland?

Remember seeing the guy in the Bugs Bunny suit?

[dflprincess]

15. Not at Disneyland

Bugs would be at Warner Brothers.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

38. Yes, that's the point.

When shown a photograph of people taking a picture with Bugs Bunny at Disneyland, 16% of respondents say they too had their pictures taken with Bugs Bunny at Disneyland.

[dflprincess]

40. Duh, now that you explain it, it all becomes clear to me.

I must think before I post.

[walldude]

4. No use in denying something that obviously happened

but there is also no use in blaming every liberal in America for it. If I saw the soldier who raped a little girl after shooting her family I'd probably do more than spit on him. Just as he does not represent the entire military, the few "spitters" do not represent every liberal in America.

[Monkeyman]

5. Now there's the truth I think the person who did it to me is a Replug now

[Howardx]

17. of course

i would expect nothing less, who else would show that much disrespect for your service?

[The Straight Story]

6. Kerry said it happend as well

KERRY RETURNED from Vietnam opposed to the war, and he wanted to do something about it. But first he had to finish out his military service, which he did by working for an admiral in New York City. It was in New York that he confronted the animosity of the left for the first time. Kerry remembers dirty looks and harsh language from others opposed to the war. “There were hippie protesters here and there who objected to people in uniform,” he says. “On a couple of occasions I heard people say ‘baby killer.’” Friends of his, Kerry says, were even spat on by antiwar types.

http://72.166.46.24/boston/news_features/talking_politics/documents/01426979.htm

[Monkeyman]

8. Here is a fact Kerry Vets in Wisc where spit on by replugs

They where marching in a parade around the Fourth when that happen. Tracy still talks about it.

[The Straight Story]

10. Pretty freakin sad either way

No matter who it comes from.

But the world is full of stupid people, and I honestly am not sure why people have made such a huge deal out of the spitting thing anyway. It was the way the govt treated our people that is the true shame of it all.

[Monkeyman]

11. Yep it not only was in Wisc. Randy Barnes in KC had to carry a gun

They came after him and his wife when they found out he was head of the Kerry Vets in KC

[TomInTib]

7. Never happened to me or anyone I knew. But then again...

we didn't exactly look like the kind of guys that one would spit at.

[Monkeyman]

9. Oh I did huh Tom wise guy LOL

[TomInTib]

12. Yeah, but I didn't "know" you then.

Man, I am sorry you had to put up with that.

I always traveled with fellow SEALs or GB.

Anybody spit at us would've been in a world of hurt.

We were crazy then, Monkeyman.

And big.

[Monkeyman]

13. I am still crazy LOL

But no big thing now.

[TomInTib]

16. Do you still carry it around with you, Monkeyman?

Have recent events (Iraq) brought it back home for you?

Just when I thought I had left it mostly behind me, this shit sometimes really disturbs me on a personal level.

Really personal.

Tom

[Monkeyman]

19. Yes it comes hard in the night.

I talk to our brothers it helps they are feeling the same thing we do

[TomInTib]

27. Good for you

You, evidently, are keeping in touch and keeeping close to the ground.


This s**t is making me crazy.

This Walter Reed business, with a little help, will turn into a prairie fire.

Send me some links so I can fan some flames.

Tom

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

30. Me too, Tom. I was getting over it

and just letting it go.

But since the "surge" I have not been dealing with it too well.

Might just be time for me to get re-tuned.

[TomInTib]

32. Wanna hear my banker?

http://www.myspace.com/katieknipp

Not to change the subject. just thought you might appreciate this.

Click in the vids and watch what she does with the harp at the end of the first clip.


Re-tune, WJS.

For we must all learn to roll around in the grass, sometime.

That's what I am telling myself.

Most of the time.

Tom

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

34. That's your banker? Damn

good singer.

[Monkeyman]

31. You got it I have a few I will put them out to you later in the day

[karlrschneider]

14. Well, it probably did actually happen. A few times. Emotions ran very high

in the last days of the Viet Nam debacle. Some of my contemporaries were exercised over certain events (the My Lai Massacre for example) to the point of frustration that even overcame common sense and basic decency. Those anti-troop activities were thankfully rare and regrettably over-reported. It wasn't the antiwar people's finest hour when it did happen.

[Monkeyman]

20. But now it not Anti-War people doing it Its Replugs

Cindy came to Hastert's District a Marine from the Gulf War was called some names I will not repeat but they tossed garbage at him. This Marine has opened a homeless shelter for vets. He stand tall for vets and he is anti-war. Replugs have no room to talk they are worse then any thing the happened in the 60's. Hell when Kerry was running they broke windows of our cars flatten tires. Calls at night where we had to change numbers. No I think they are far worse then anti- Vietnam people ever where.

[karlrschneider]

23. Well, obviously that Marine wasn't enough of a gung-ho warmonger to satisfy them.

I am shocked, I tells ya...shocked. :eyes:

[roody]

18. I have a Vietnam vet to thank

who informed me when I was 16 about the debacle in Vietnam. I was going to a BoyScout banquet at which Gen. Westmoreland spoke. I saw Westmoreland insult the vet who was talking to people outside about the war being wrong. Anyway about the spit. How does that impact the fact that war is failure and evil besides?

[EFerrari]

24. People who feel reflexively guilty don't think very well? n/t

[Beelzebud]

21. Did it happen? Most likely. Was it a widespread, common occurance? NO.

[Up2Late]

22. Maybe you should try to get in touch with the screenwriter of the movie "First Blood" ("Rambo")...

...and ask him if he knows where the charge came from. I think a lot of the kids today remember the line from the movie "First Blood" (or "Rambo: First Blood" as most would know it), rather than any first hand accounts. <http://imdb.com/title/tt0083944/>

Also, you might want to go through some of these videos, which are Free to download, at the Internet Archive: <http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=Vietnam%20AND%20mediatype%3Amovies>

[mitchum]

26. Ironically, the line first showed up in "Coming Home",,starring Jane Fonda

[treestar]

25. It may have happened on occasion, but it doesn't mean

anything today - freepers like to use it to imply that if you don't support the troops (support the rethugs in any war they can think of) you are the equivalent of whatever idiots may have done such a thing, but as usual, freeper logic fails.

[Cabcere]

28. I wasn't around during Vietnam

but I do feel that the lack of sufficient funds for armor and the less-than-satisfactory conditions at Walter Reed are proof that people are at least figuratively spitting on the troops in this war. And the sad thing is, the spitters are the ones who ordered the war. :(

[ConsAreLiars]

33. So what. Civil rights and anti-war activists were murdered.

Who the fuck cares about a few simpletons or provocateurs who might have spit? Yes, babies were butchered in Vietnam. The atrocities committed against the people of Vietnam were enough to make any sane person puke out their guts. But getting outraged about a few spitballs is so fucking pathetic and misguided!

Talk about misplaced values! Sure the few spitters were either stupid or loyal to Army Intelligence, by my god, compare that to the slaughter of millions in an unjust war of aggression.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

35. No shit. I wanted to spit on myself

lots of times.

And, well, I guess I did, sort of.

[WinkyDink]

36. Just asking: Were returning VietNam vets in uniform in the airports?

Did they come home on military planes and land at civilian airports?
If they came home on commercial planes, how were they treated/looked at on the planes by fellow passengers?
Were any spitters ever apprehended by any airport authorities? How did by-standers react?

[TahitiNut]

37. Returned on MAC flight through Alaska, landing at Travis AFB in California.

Bussed from Travis to OAB (Oakland Army Base). Out-processed. Issued Class-A's (greens) to wear home. (Military standby on civilian flight required wearing uniform.) Got a ride to SFO. Got flight from SFO to DTW, arriving at DTW after midnight. Taxi from DTW to wife's apartment, arriving around 2am. Woke manager to get in.


There is NO SINGLE ANSWER to your question. Depends on branch of service, officer vs. enlisted, whether person was getting discharged from active duty, and how far they had to travel from out-processing center to destination and what mode of transportation they took. (Some could just take a bus.) IIRC, the majority of Army personnel came back through OAB - about 2/3 draftees, most of whom were being discharged.

The rule, when I was in (1969), was that an enlisted person had to wear their uniform (greens) to travel on military standby on a commercial flight. (On top of that, I didn't have any winter civilian clothing - and very little other civilian clothing.)

I have almost no recollection of the flight itself. I have only the vaguest of recollections that it was United - and can't really be sure of that, either. I don't even recall if it was direct or non-stop. I'd been traveling and going through out-processing for perhaps 24-30 hours straight, including crossing the date line, sleeping on the plane if at all.

The idea that a guy traveling alone and (finally!) getting 'home' and out of the Army would take the time to make some complaint or report (to whom? for what?) or get into a fight is just plain ridiculous, imho. Ludicrous.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

39. I never saw any vets spat upon. But, I did see anti-war vets beaten up by the cops.

At one demonstration at the Federal Building in L.A. there were about 20 of us peacefully protesting. The L.A. cops in cars kept circling us and flashing shotguns in our direction. Across the street were the well-dressed guys with the telescopic-lens cameras.

One of the guys, a Vietnam-vet, on his way to his car after the demo was accosted by the cops. Result: a broken-jaw and a "resisting arrest" charge that was, as usual, later dropped. What was the reason for stopping him? The heinous crime of jay walking.