Death Squad in Delaware - The case of the murdered Marine

[shance]

This is horrible.

Derek J. Hale was sitting outside when a police force drove up, tasered him and then shot him dead.

For what?

Nothing apparently.

Authorities apparently are claiming Hale was involved in a "Pagan Drug ring". Actually he was involved in a Pagan Motorcycle Club. For those of you who know Pagans and what they represent, Pagans are into celebrating and honoring the balance and care of all things natural and of the earth. This makes absolute no sense. What also makes no sense is the tremendous use of SWAT like force in a situation like this. It is the most unprecedented abuse of weaponry and level headedness I have heard of.

This is why the Second Amendment is important to Americans. However, the Second Amendment and a twelve gauge would have no means of protection or defense against this almost militarized use of force here. It is beyond the pale of any police abuse I have seen.

This is very sad and should be an alert for all Americans. Please send this to any friends in Delaware.

I wonder what Mr. Biden has to say about this. Or the Governor of Delaware?



Death Squad in Delaware: The Case of the Murdered Marine



He survived Iraq, only to suffer Death By Government in the "Land of the Free": Sgt. Derek J. Hale, USMC, ret. -- RIP


Delaware was the first state to ratify the U.S. Constitution.

It may be the first state to be afflicted with a fully operational death squad – unless a civil lawsuit filed on Friday against the murders of Derek J. Hale results in criminal charges and a complete lustration (in the Eastern European sense of the term) of Delaware's law enforcement establishment.


Hale, a retired Marine Sergeant who served two tours in Iraq and was decorated before his combat-related medical discharge in January 2006, was murdered by a heavily armed 8-12-member undercover police team in Wilmington, Delaware last November 6. He had come to Wilmington from his home in Manassas, Virginia to participate in a Toys for Tots event.


Derek was house-sitting for a friend on the day he was murdered. Sandra Lopez, the ex-wife of Derek's friend, arrived with an 11-year-old son and a 6-year-old daughter just shortly before the police showed up. After helping Sandra and her children remove some of their personal belongings, Derek was sitting placidly on the front step, clad in jeans and a hooded sweatshirt, when an unmarked police car and a blacked-out SUV arrived and disgorged their murderous cargo.




Unknown to Derek, he had been under police surveillance as part of a ginned-up investigation into the Pagan Motorcycle Club, which he had joined several months before; the Pagans sponsored the “Toys for Tots Run” that had brought Derek to Delaware. As with any biker club, the Pagans probably included some disreputable people in their ranks. Derek was emphatically not one of them.




In addition to his honorable military service (albeit in a consummately dishonorable war), Derek's personal background was antiseptically clean. He had a concealed carry permit in Virginia, which would not have been issued to him if he'd been convicted of a felony, a narcotics or domestic violence charge, or had any record of substance abuse or mental illness.


On the day he was killed, Derek had been under both physical and electronic (and, according to the civil complaint, illegal) surveillance. Police personnel who observed him knew that his behavior was completely innocuous. And despite the fact that he had done nothing to warrant such treatment, he was considered an “un-indicted co-conspirator” in a purported narcotics ring run by the Pagans.


The police vehicles screeched to a halt in front of the house shortly after 4:00 p.m. They ordered Lopez and her children away from Derek – who, predictably, had risen to his feet by this time -- and then ordered him to remove his hands from his the pockets of his sweatshirt.


http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2007/03/death-squad-in-delaware-case-of.html

[whistle]

1. The USA is now a terrorist police state and this is happening

.....in cities across the country

[AnneD]

2. I know many Pagans....

It is analgous to putting Quaker's on the terrorist list because of their anti war stance. We need to spread this info. Terrorism is already on our shores.

[shance]

5. Bingo. It's an assault on those who promote peace and good in the world.

n.t

[drm604]

9. You do realize

that the Pagan Motorcycle Club is a completely different entity from spiritual Pagans right? The only connection between the two is the name. I don't know if the Pagans MC is guilty of all the things they've been accused of, but they are certainly not analogous to Quakers.

Not to belittle this story, the police acted atrociously here and should be tried for murder. This is frightening stuff.

[shance]

23. "In addition to honorable military service Derek's personal background was antiseptically clean."

In addition to his honorable military service Derek's personal background was antiseptically clean. He had a concealed carry permit in Virginia, which would not have been issued to him if he'd been convicted of a felony, a narcotics or domestic violence charge, or had any record of substance abuse or mental illness.




On the day he was killed, Derek had been under both physical and electronic (and, according to the civil complaint, illegal) surveillance. Police personnel who observed him knew that his behavior was completely innocuous. And despite the fact that he had done nothing to warrant such treatment, he was considered an “un-indicted co-conspirator” in a purported narcotics ring run by the Pagans.

[drm604]

37. As I said

this was completely unacceptable behavior by the police. There should be murder trials.

But I noticed that there seems to be some confusion by some people on this thread as to the nature of the Pagans Motorcycle club. I was trying to clear that up.

I have no idea whether Derek was aware of the reputations or activities of the Pagans MC. I grew up in the Philadelphia area so I am aware of them. Derek is from Virginia so I suppose it is possible that he wasn't aware and simply signed up because of their sponsorship of Toys for Tots.

I wasn't trying to indict Derek, just pointing out some facts about this MC. They are not in any way related to the peaceful spiritual pagans some people here are thinking of. They are more analogous to the Hells Angels. They were formed in the 60s during the heyday of outlaw biker clubs and the word "pagan" had a much different meaning in this culture at that time.

I'm not criticizing you or anyone else on this thread. Just pointing out some facts that many people are understandably unaware of.

[AnneD]

57. I cannot judge a person,

but as my Mom is so fond of quoting 'you can know them by their fruits'. This seems to be an occasion where the fruits are plain to see.

During the Middle Ages, women esp Druids, Pagans, etc. functioned as midwifes. They dispensed medicines to relieve child birth pains and to prevent conception. The ability to do these was viewed as contrary to God's Law. These women were tortured and killed and eventually driven underground. What knowledge did we lose.

Wheither the Pagans MC is bad is neither here nor there and just a red herring that I refuse to chase after. We have an innocent individual that was ruthlessly gunned down by overzealous policemen in full violation of his civil and human rights. When those that are suppose to protect and serve are the ones we have to fear, we are no longer a free society but a police state.

[drm604]

67. No argument.

If the description of the incident is correct then the police shot him repeatedly in the chest while he was paralyzed from taser blasts. There is no way that is acceptable regardless of who he was or what he had done, if anything.

But there was a misunderstanding on this thread and I was simply trying to clear it up. The Pagans MC has NO RELATION to pagans from the middle ages or the peaceful spiritual pagans of today. I grew up in Pagan "territory" and I know this for a fact. The organization was named back when "pagan" essentially meant "non-christian" in most people's minds, and "non-christian" meant evil and un-American. I didn't make those definitions, that's simply how people thought. At the time that name indicated the nature of the gang, now it's just an anachronism.

[WinkyDink]

98. The bikers have ZERO conection to the ancient ones. PERIOD.

The Pagans are best known for murderous turf wars with the Hells Angels.

[sinkingfeeling]

3. Welcome to the new Police State of America. This super, macho attitude of our

police is growing all over the country, not just in Delaware. They all think they have a right to personally hunt down 'terrorists' and use brute force on the people they're supposed to be protecting. Look at the behavior record of the Capitol Police in the last 5 years!

[jeff30997]

4. I'm a Canadian and I don't plan to visit the US in the near future...

I heard too many horror stories like this one and

others about tourists attacked by cops.:scared:

[rinsd]

18. Dude its a biker gang, not pagans in the religious sense.

[Greyhound]

64. Which is utterly irrelevant. n/t

[rinsd]

68. Its is to the poster

Who seems to be under the impression, thanks to the OP, that police are gunning down random pagans.

This whole thread has been poisoned by the OP's BS and reliance on rw blogs.

[Greyhound]

71. In case it has escaped your notice, police all over the country are, and for years have been,

gunning down people with no justification and are being excused because we have all been so conditioned to irrationally fear everything and everyone that too many of us are only too anxious to give up our liberty for the false safety of "the thin blue line" (which is utter bullshit anyway).:eyes:

[shance]

75. Don't dare insinuate and imply what you have no capacity to know.

You are bordering on harrassment rinsd.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jeff30997]

90. WTF are you talking about ?

I'm afraid of the COPS dammit,not the bikers!

[Greyhound]

62. Wise move, so many of us loose perspective from being mired in the shit

and we forget what life was, and is supposed to be, like.

[Forkboy]

76. Save your money

The US isn't worth visiting at the moment.We're closed for renovations :)

[IronLionZion]

85. Don't go too close to the border either

In Bowling for Columbine, they said the only gun murder in Windsor, Ontario was by some dude from Detroit. Watch out for stray bullets.

[Jcrowley]

6. K&R

[IronLionZion]

7. There are convicted rapists and child molesters in the Republican party

and some are under investigation for terrible crimes such as starting an illegal war. Perhaps it's time for some collective punishment?


http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070323/NEWS/70323013


And Delaware's a liberal blue state. I don't want to imagine how it would be in Texas. Damn.

[shance]

10. Thank you ILZ for that link. We should start a Hale Legal Fund.

Wonder how that's done....

[Greyhound]

15. Don't ever imagine that just because a state votes for Democrats it is a civilized place.

Remember that Darryl Gates (the father of the militarized police force) was the Chief of the LAPD. You can read thousands of accounts of ordinary citizens being beaten, arrested, and killed by various "police forces" in every part of California, for simply being present.

We are just lucky that this kind of stuff still gets reported at all.

[shance]

20. I'm in California. I remember how Jerry Brown turned the other way as protestors in Oakland

were hit with rubber bullets, harassed and violently treated about four years ago.

Jerry Brown the mayor of Oakland, sided with the police who had engaged in what many saw as criminal acts against protestors.

Yes, that Jerry Brown.

Really surprised me.

Yep, unfortunately someone saying they are a Democrat is like saying they are a Christian, Jew or a Muslim. It doesn't in any way reveal their moral compass, or lack thereof. In fact, labels are often used as masks to hide a less than noble agenda.

Power can do terrible things as we are seeing, especially to those people susceptible to their own delusions of grandeur, like we are seeing***

[Greyhound]

59. Ya I remember that too. I lived there for 12 years and and it is a fucking police

state. Worst of all, that's how the terrified sheeple want it, they seem to be incapable of imagining themselves on the receiving end of the tender mercies of their brown-shirts, that is of course, until it happens.

[shance]

74. Without a healthy media to tell the truth, sheeple remain sheepified.

Thanks for the post.

[Lilith Velkor]

70. "It's the suede/denim secret police!"

"They have come for your uncool niece!"

All this time I thought that song was satire... :crazy:

[Cobalt Violet]

81. That's for sure.

Cops in Massachusetts have the same cop mentality as any other state.

[ThomCat]

8. I want to see that PD bankrupted for this.

I want to see careers ruined and the top people put in jail. What they did is just so horribly wrong is so many ways that I just can't wrap my head around it.

Instead of serving and protecting they murdered a man. They did it deliberately. It was premeditated. They violated his civil rights repeatedly before hand. They knew he had done nothing wrong because of their violations of his civil rights, and yet they killed him anyway.
x(

I'm going to be sick.

[orwell]

11. But most won't get mad...

...until the fascists are at their doorstep. Many of us are blind to the growing threat because it is still not right in our face.

This is truly tragic...

[shance]

16. The powers that abuse have effectively disconnected us from our communities.

Part if it has been intentional, another part has been a by product of technology.

A friend of mine just got back from China and went to Beijing. People are not allowed to assemble in groups of more than I don't know, eight or ten. The point is they are not allowed to assemble. The power abusers are trying to eliminate our appreciation and our utilization of that very important Constitutional right. Ever notice how few town halls there are in cities. I think New Hampshire is one of the few states that has Town halls in almost every city.

We have got to return and use our freedom to ASSEMBLE. It is a right we must utilize to empower ourselves and take our communities back.

[1monster]

19. Get mad? I can't get over being vilely ill over this. Maybe when that

passes, if it ever does, I'll be able to get angry.

The problem is, I think that feeling as sick as I do over this is the stage that comes after anger...

[Marrah_G]

12. They are not religious Pagans.......

Not sure if this has been pointed out yet but the Pagans are a violent biker gang. They are an enemy of the Hells ANgels. They are not religious Pagans and nor are they in any way shape or form associated with people of Pagan/Wiccan faiths.

[shance]

14. Do you have any references Marrah? That would help.

Of course if you are trying to excuse that a Police squad of over a hundred were targeting and questionably monitoring and following Hale's every move for months, you won't win that argument that he deserved it. No one deserves the abuse and terror he received.

[rinsd]

21. LOL. You get facts completely wrong and yet blame someone for pointing it out

:eyes:

[shance]

26. LOL! Here you go again. Perhaps we should call you Conan?

n/t

[rinsd]

29. I'm not the one who got facts wrong and posted BS from a rw blog.

[shance]

46. That's a lie Rinsd. Please stop with the lying.

n/t

[rinsd]

51. I'm not the one who is lying

Here is your source http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2007/03/death-squad-in-delaware-case-of.html

Try reading some of the other articles, its gunnut rw BS.

[Marrah_G]

33. You could easily google it yourself

Pagans MC
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

The Pagans Motorcycle Club was formed by Lou Dobkins in 1959 in Prince George's County, Maryland. The Pagans MC rapidly expanded, and by 1968, they dominated the entire East Coast. The southern New Jersey chapter led by "Big Ron" Massie and later his son Michael "Spyder" Massie who in 1991 was convicted on drug charges, yet continued to maintain his tight reign over activities of this chapter said to be the most feared of all chapters, due to the terror instilled by this father-and-son pair.

The Pagans, by 1965, originally clad in blue denim jackets and riding Triumphs, had begun to evolve along the lines of the California stereotype generated by such famous motorcycle clubs as the Boozefighters, Iron Horsemen, Outlaws, etc. Most of these were eventually merged with the Hells Angels.

The Pagans MC patch depicts the Norse fire-giant Surt wielding a flaming sword, plus the word "Pagans" in red, white and blue.

The following information is offered by Lou’s widow, Sandi Dobkin:

The Pagan Motorcycle Club was originally formed as an AMA racing team and custom show bike club by Lou Dobkin in 1963. Born 1/7/1943 in Washington D.C. and after serving as a medic in the U. S. Navy, Lou continued his education as a Bio-chemist at the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland. until his death in 1989. Two of many articles written about his passion for travel & custom bikes - both Triumph and Harley Davidson’s- were published in the November, 1972 Custom Chopper magazine.

The pagans have also been linked to the Aryan Brotherhood.

Not sure why you felt the need to try accuse me of anything, except possibly just being an asshat. I am a Wiccan (also known as Pagan) and I dislike seeing this Biker group confused with my religion. They are VERY different thing.

Do a very fucking simple google of "Pagans Bike Gang"

[shance]

48. Again, this is nothing but information about the biking crew. Nothing about Hale.

Seems you are trying to demonize an innocent victim.

How sad you would resort to such cheap antics.

Why not see the wrongdoing for what it is?

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rinsd]

54. These aren't boomers riding on the weekend. 16 of his fellow "club" members were indicted (nt)

[Ghost in the Machine]

89. what people are *trying* to make you understand is that part of *YOUR*

OP is incorrect. NOBODY is trying to minimize this man's murder. What we are trying to point out is that you need to be aware of your mstake. I'm sure it's an honest mistake on your part. You did write the little summary at the beginning of you post didn't you?

This part?
"Authorities apparently are claiming Hale was involved in a "Pagan Drug ring". Actually he was involved in a Pagan Motorcycle Club. For those of you who know Pagans and what they represent, Pagans are into celebrating and honoring the balance and care of all things natural and of the earth. This makes absolute no sense. What also makes no sense is the tremendous use of SWAT like force in a situation like this. It is the most unprecedented abuse of weaponry and level headedness I have heard of. (emphasis mine)....

That is factually incorrect, and if someone who didn't know any better read your assertation here, they probably wouldn't question it. Then they would repeat it to someone else.. and so on.. and so on... ad nauseum... Do you understand where we are coming from now? No one is condoning the murder, we are trying to EDUCATE YOU and help you correct your inaccurate statement of facts because it is, in fact, devoid of fact.

Carry on :hi:

Ghost

[knight_of_the_star]

92. Lovely bunch

Doesn't excuse what the cops did, but doesn't mean the club is innocent.

[ms liberty]

13. K&R n/t

[rinsd]

17. Shance, Do some research before flipping out. This is a biker gang

Its not a religious group or movement.

Here's stories about their all out brawl with the Hell' Angels

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/classifieds/autos/topics/handle_bars/index.html?query=PAGAN%20OUTLAW%20MOTORCYCLE%20CLUB&field=org&match=exact

Here's a picture of some fun loving "Pagans" in jail

http://hometown.aol.com/jailedpagans/

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rinsd]

24. Ignorance is bliss for some I guess (nt)

[Forkboy]

78. He's made more sense and better points than you have so far.

:shrug:

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. Sounds like an interesting group of folks; here is one guy

MY NAME IS CONAN 13 1%ER
I'M 6'2" TALL AND 250 LBS. I WAS THE NATIONAL SGT. AT ARMS
OF THE PAGANS MOTORCYCLE CLUB. I AM CURRENTLY INCARCERATED AT THE FEDERAL PENITENTIARY IN LEWISBURG PENNSYLVANIA.

[shance]

35. What does this have to do with Hale? You guys present no references about Hale.

How many biker gangs to you know who are pink and fluffy?

Please stop demonizing the victim, who if you will read, had an impeccably clean record. He was a good guy that you are now wrongly incriminating because he may or may not have been actively involved in the Pagan biker group.

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. Well, personally, I don't hang out with any cons

And if you don't understand this is an obviously violent group, I don't know what to tell you.

[shance]

73. You're assuming they are all cons?

That's a bit biased.

Do you know for a fact that simply because they are in a biker group and have a lot of tattoos that they are all Cons and/or ex Convicts?

[proud2BlibKansan]

79. Did you look at their website?

[rinsd]

36. Is that a singles ad?

[proud2BlibKansan]

80. For certain women, yes it might be

:)

[the other one]

25. The "PAGANS" are a VIOLENT GANG!!!!!!!!!

Holy fucking shit is this hilarious.

Please go to delaware or maryland or pennsylvania and go stop buy any dive biker bar. There you will meet pagans. Be polite, but apologize quickly and leave in a hurry. Pagans are large hairy harley driving monsters. They are not the wiccan type of pagan at all. They will fuck you up mister, believe me. They are the mid-atlantic version of the Hell's Angels, and you don't want to fuck with them.

I don't know if the police overreacted or not, but probably not. No cop is going to voluntarily put himself on the Pagan revenge list, so my guess is this guy at least scared them into shooting him.

Omygod I can't stop laughing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[shance]

30. Hale was an impeccably clean guy. Don't demonize the victim.

[rinsd]

32. "Hale was an impeccably clean guy"

According to the gunnut right winger site you posted.

:eyes:

[Marrah_G]

40. You should really just admit you messed up

[shance]

41. Thanks Marrah. Now where are those references of Hale being anything other than a good guy?

Bring em on!

[Marrah_G]

50. You truly are a winner

You mistake a violent gang for a peaceful religion and when it is pointed out you insuate the person is a liar and ask for proof. Then when given proof you continue to act like an asshat, looking for a fight. I have no idea if he was a "good guy" although his being a member of a violent murderous, drug-selling gang makes me think he might not be the kinda guy I want watching my kids. None of that has anything to do with whether the police were right or wrong. If they were horribly wrong and in fact murdered this man that doesn't change the fact that he was a member of the Pagan Bike group and not a Pagan in reference to religion.

You might want to consider pulling your head out of your ass now.

[shance]

72. Let's try to be grown ups here Marrah.

One more time.

You have provided no evidence, nor have I in fairness, since someone should be, as to how much Hale was even involved with this biking club.

One more time for an encore, enough on the Biking club, wheres evidence of his interaction with this biking club that created the tasering and the totally unecessary shooting in front of his house. They didn't even give him a chance to be arrested?

But you're obsessed with the Pagan Biking Club and yet provide no evidence of how involved he was in the group.

What you do however is call me names and try to demean me.

What is known and what I provided was that Hale was a decent, good person who did not deserve to be murdered on that day. Let me rephrase, no one would deserve such treatment and abuse.

Unlike you, I have provided references which state in fact he had no prior crime record, his military record was good and there was no evidence or inconsistencies that make sense for the huge overzealous police response.

[Marrah_G]

86. Let's try this again, I will go slow

You posted that police murdered a Pagan, and you also went on to say that he was a pagan in the religious sense.

I corrected you and explained that he was not a Pagan in the religious sense, but rather the member of a violent bikers game called the Pagans.

You insuated I was a liar trying to take blame off the police.

I told you I don't haven't made any decision as to what I think happened, that as a Pagan I did want the bike gang mistaken for my religion.

You, rather then just saying "oh, my mistake" start accusing me of siding with the police and syaing he was a bad person.

I responded by again saying that I have no opinion either way, since I dont know the case, but simply do not want my religion equate with a well known, very violent bike gang.

Again you go off on a tangent about this guy being a nice guy.

Do you see where this is going yet?

This is why I grew frustrated with you. You refused to read the actual posts and instead choice to fight some arguement that only you were having. I don't know how many different ways I can say this.

One last try: I don't know the background of this story and I have no opinion either way about what happened. I never form an opinion without hearing all sides. I do know that contrary to what you wrote in the OP, the person was not a Pagan in the religious sense, but rather a member of a well known criminal and violent biker gang, like the Hella Angels. Being a Wiccan I do not want my faith mistaken for the people in that article.

Do you get it now??????????????????

[rman]

94. So you assume all the eyewitnesses are mistaken,

in that the victim was unarmed, that he was tasered so that he was unable to comply with orders to raise his hands - for which was shot dead at point blank range?

Or is it perhaps that you think this is not crucial to the case?


Delaware Online Newsjournal
Witnesses: Police lacked cause to kill suspect
'He didn't deserve to be shot. He wasn't any kind of threat.'
By LEE WILLIAMS, The News Journal
Posted Thursday, March 22, 2007
http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061115/NEWS/103220008

[Marrah_G]

96. reading comprehension

I said no such thing anywhere in any of my posts.

[rman]

93. only a sociopath would find this funny

[rinsd]

28. Nice right wing blog post ya got there

"Observations and commentary from a Christian Libertarian perspective, written by a freedom-obsessed father of five children and husband to one exquisitely lovely wife."

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rinsd]

34. What's your next source NewsMax?

[High Plains]

82. That's a cheap shot that ignores the substance of the story

Why not address the substance of the story instead of using cheap rhetoric to try to discredit it?

There are other sources for this story. Try this:

"Witnesses: Police Lacked Cause to Kill Suspect"
http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061115/NEWS/103220008

"Family of ex-Marine killed by police claims officers used Taser gun, then shot him 3 times"
http://news.bostonherald.com/national/northeast/view.bg?articleid=190431

Police use of deadly force without proper cause is a real problem in this country. It's not just a concern of right-wingers, either. Why apologize for apparent police misconduct?

[rinsd]

83. BS. The OP has poisoned the thread with his/her behavior.

Which is why I have now posted a non rw gunnut blog story laced with incorrect info

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x541549

[High Plains]

84. Glad to see you've posted that.

The confusion over the Pagans appears to be a simple error. But arguing over it at length detracts from the real story here: The inappropriate use of lethal force by police.

[Marrah_G]

87. Exactly

The OP should have just acknowledged the mistake and we could have moved on with the conversation.

[shadowknows69]

38. Has anyone checked to see if this guy served in the military

with any of these cops? Some of the hatred and rivalries in our armed forces is staggering and yes there are types who would "not suffer a witch to live". Literally, along with blacks, immigrants, gays, teachers, scientists, etc.

[rinsd]

39. Its not pagans, the religious kind

Its the Pagan biker gang.

The OP has conflated the two and continues to do so.

[shadowknows69]

42. I get that now

still i think it would be a viable angle to follow up on. Could prove motive.

[Marrah_G]

43. The cops knew he was in the biker gang

None of them thought it meant he was a witch.

[shance]

44. So what does that have to do with police abuse and his murder Marrah?

So far you have presented "nada" to incriminate and/or explain why Hale was murdered in the brutal fashion that he was?

[rinsd]

47. How come you continue to posion the well of discussion?

First you post rw BS when the story is available elsewhere, then you conflate pagans with the Pagan Biker gang, then when people point it out instead of admitting your mistake you attacked them.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Marrah_G]

88. Because I have no opinion either way on what happened

I havent seen the whole story so I won't form an opinion. Not sure why you equate my pointing out that he isn't a Pagan in the religious sense, but rather a member of a violent bike gang called the Pagans with somehow thinking he was justifiably killed.

Would you want your religion (if you have one) equated with a gang known for organized crime, drug dealing and murder?

[rman]

95. Which part of the story have you not seen?

The part where the police say they did nothing wrong?

[Marrah_G]

97. Reading comprehension again

My statements are only about the part of the article mistaking the bike gang for my religon. Again you are trying to turn my statemtns into something they just are not.

[shadowknows69]

49. no, i meant being in the military with any of the cops

n/t

[rinsd]

45. Who knows? maybe he got involved in the Pagans over there.

We've seen stories about various gangs having a prescence in Iraq.

[shadowknows69]

52. there are tons of gangs in our military

white supremecist gangs too that are who we really should be worried about. These mother fuckers believe in the race war believe me.

[rinsd]

56. Training for the race war....

...scary thought indeed.

[shadowknows69]

60. Bank on it

You hear an amazing amount when you get to eavsedrop as a cabbie. I've had troops talking to each other about ordinance that they had stolen from supply. C4 and shit.

[rinsd]

61. That's right I forgot.

I remember reading some of your cabbie stories. You work right outside a base, correct?

[shadowknows69]

63. yep

actually my post license just expired and I'm not in a hurry to renew it. Shit haunts me. Had a troop threaten to kill me last week. No tip either.

[rinsd]

65. The no tip line made me chuckle.

Well good luck with whatever you decide and thanks for sharing your stories.

[Selatius]

66. Pagans/Wiccans DO NOT EQUAL Pagan Motorcycle Club

The two are not the same thing. Just because PMC has "Pagan" in its name does not mean its followers are predominantly Pagan in spiritual/religious views.

Get that through your head.

Does that mean I justify this ex-Marine getting perforated by a 12-member gang of SWAT? No. If they used excessive force and killed them, then they should be prosecuted, period.

[Joe Chi Minh]

69. K&R

[knight_of_the_star]

91. self-delete

nt