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Ending Imperialist Wars: The Intersection of Morality and Self-Interest

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 07:31 PM
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Ending Imperialist Wars: The Intersection of Morality and Self-Interest
In my opinion the most important argument against imperialist wars is their immorality. It’s a terrible shame that U.S. politicians don’t use this argument more often. I guess they feel that they will be accused of being “weak” or “soft on defense”, or some such nonsense if they do so.

How do we know when our wars are based on imperialist motives, when we’re always told that they are based on some noble motive or need for self-preservation? President McKinley, attempting to justify our occupation of the Philippines in 1899, said:

We could not leave them to themselves – they were unfit for self-government – and they would soon have anarchy and misrule… there was nothing left for us to do but to take them all, and to educate the Filipinos, and uplift and civilize and Christianize them… blah blah blah.

Our justification for our Vietnam War was Communism. Though the Geneva Conference Agreements of 1954 provided for general elections which were to bring about the unification of Vietnam, U.S. Secretary of State John Foster Dulles intervened to prevent those elections from taking place. From the time that we prevented the Vietnamese from holding elections in 1956 until our withdrawal from Vietnam 17 years later, the justification for our imperial policies there was always to help the Vietnamese throw of the yolk of Communism, and also to prevent the spread of Communism to other countries.


So how do we know when we’re involved in an imperialist war?

One thing is for certain. Whenever we (or any other country) attempt to occupy another country, we’re told that we do so for their own good. How do we know if that’s true? Well, if we kill hundreds of thousands of civilians or if we create millions of refugees in the country that we’re trying to “civilize” or bring “democracy” to, or whatever, it doesn’t seem too likely that our leaders are telling us the truth about their noble motives.

For example, an April 2007 article in The Nation by Dahr Jamail noted about 4 million Iraqi refugees as of that date. Add one million dead to that figure, and we can calculate that about one fifth of the original Iraqi population since the 2003 U.S. invasion has either died as a result of the war or occupation or become refugees. Jamail’s article explains at least one reason for so many refugees:

On all measurable levels, life in Baghdad, now well into the fifth year of U.S. occupation, has become hellish for Iraqis who have attempted to remain, which, of course, only adds to the burgeoning numbers who daily become part of the exodus to neighboring lands. It is generally agreed that the delivery of security, electricity, potable water, health care, and jobs – that is, the essentials of modern urban life – are all significantly worse than during the last years of the reign of Saddam Hussein… "The Americans are detaining so many people," Ali Hassan, a 41-year-old from the Hay Jihad area of Baghdad said as we spoke…

That doesn’t sound like a very good way to “bring democracy” to a country, does it?

We also have opinion polls of Iraqis, in the event that any of our leaders care to look at them. An opinion poll of Iraqis in September 2006 should have told us all we needed to know about the success and legitimacy of our “liberation” effort:

 78% said that the U.S. military presence is provoking more conflict than it is preventing.
 61% said that U.S. military withdrawal would increase security for ordinary Iraqis.
 61% approved of violent attacks on U.S. led forces.
 91% said that U.S. forces should withdraw within two years or less.


Atrocities associated with imperialist guerilla wars

When a powerful country attempts to occupy a militarily weaker country against the will of its people, a tragic cycle of events tends to take place. Because of the disparity in traditional military strength, the occupied country tends to resort to guerilla warfare. If resentment against the occupier is widespread, which it often is, guerilla warfare tends to be widely dispersed, and large portions of the population participate in it. It therefore becomes difficult or impossible for the occupier to differentiate civilians from fighters. That increases the tendency of the occupier to respond with massacres and other atrocities, which increases the resentment of the occupied people and causes an increasing number of them to join the insurgency.

A report in the Philadelphia Ledger in 1901 gave the American people their first glimpse of the atrocities committed during the American-Philippine War:

Our men have been relentless; have killed to exterminate men, women, children, prisoners and captives, active insurgents and suspected people, from lads of ten and up, an idea prevailing that the Filipino, as such, was little better than a dog… Our soldiers have pumped salt water into men to “make them talk,” have taken prisoner people who held up their hands and peacefully surrendered, and an hour later… shot them down one by one…

The Mai Lai massacre during the Vietnam War is the most well known atrocity of that war, though it was only the tip of the iceberg. Here is a brief summary of it:

When Charlie Company entered Mai Lai they encountered no resistance from Viet Cong Soldiers, yet three hours later there were over 500 civilian Vietnamese, men, women and children, dead. Lieutenant William Calley, for whatever reason, ordered his men to kill, burn and destroy everything in the village….

A report by a coalition of non-governmental groups called the Global Policy Forum shed a lot of light on some of the reasons for the tragedies that so many Iraqis have suffered under the U.S. occupation. The report explains that U.S. forces:

have held a large number of Iraqi citizens in 'security detention' without charge or trial, in direct violation of international law. No Iraqi is safe from arbitrary arrest and the number of prisoners has risen greatly since 2003 (when the US-led war began)…

U.S. military commanders have established permissive rules of engagement, allowing troops to use deadly force against virtually any perceived threat. As a consequence, the US and its allies regularly kill Iraqi civilians at checkpoints and during military operations, on the basis of the merest suspicion…abusing and torturing large numbers of Iraqi prisoners… torture increasingly takes place in Iraqi prisons, apparently with US awareness and complicity…In addition to combat deaths, coalition forces have killed many Iraqi civilians.

The United States has established broad legal immunity in Iraq for its forces, for private security personnel, for foreign military and civilian contractors, and even for the oil companies doing business in Iraq…


The consequences of our guerilla wars of occupation

The participation of the United States in guerilla wars has usually been in the role of the occupier. There was one exception, the one that began in 1775 and led to our birth as a nation – and that was the only one that we won.

Theodore Roosevelt inherited the Philippine War in September 1901, when President McKinley was assassinated. By the time he declared the Philippines “pacified” on July 4, 1902, 4,373 American soldiers had died in the war, along with an estimated 16 thousand Filipino soldiers and 20 thousand Filipino civilians.

By the time we left Vietnam in 1973, 58,000 American troops had died in the war, along with about two million Vietnamese. The cost to the U.S. was about $600 billion.

Our invasion of Iraq, a country that posed no threat to us whatsoever, has accomplished nothing but the deaths of thousands of American soldiers, more than a million Iraqis, and the destruction of their country and society.

In summary, throughout our history our attempts to occupy militarily weaker nations against their will have been utter failures and massive moral tragedies.

So what about Afghanistan?


Will Afghanistan turn out differently? – The difficulties of winning guerilla wars

William R. Polk recently wrote an open letter to President Obama, published in The Nation, in which he urged him to withdraw our military from Afghanistan. Polk was a professor at the University of Chicago, where he established the Center for Middle Eastern Studies and was president of the Adlai Stevenson Institute of International Affairs, following his work in the Kennedy administration, where he was a member of the Policy Planning Council responsible the Middle East and Central Asia.

In his letter to the president, he gave many reasons for withdrawing for Afghanistan, including: the enormous costs; that it is not helpful towards our goals of capturing Osama bin Laden or neutralizing al Qaeda; that our lack of understanding of its culture and people greatly hinders our effectiveness there; that we are creating far more enemies by being there than we are eliminating, and; the historic failures of other countries that have tried to occupy Afghanistan, such as the British from 1842 to 1919 and the Soviet Union in the 1980s. But by far the most prominent theme of Polk’s letter dealt with the difficulties of winning guerilla wars while trying to occupy a country whose people deeply resent being occupied. He begins that subject by drawing a parallel with Vietnam:

According to press accounts, you are being told that America can win the war against the Taliban by employing overwhelming military power. Just like President Johnson’s generals, yours keep asking for more troops. You are also being told that we can multiply our power with counterinsurgency tactics. Having made a detailed study (laid out in my book “Violent Politics”) of a dozen insurgencies… I doubt that you are being well advised. When I was in government, we were told we could achieve victory in Vietnam by the same combination of force and counterinsurgency recommended by your advisers in Afghanistan…. But as the editors of the Pentagon Papers concluded: … “All failed dismally.”

Most important, Polk draws a direct correlation between our poor prospects in Afghanistan and the unpopularity of our military presence and the puppet regime we support:

Our chances of defeating them are poor. Indeed, some independent observers believe they are becoming more popular while we are becoming less popular. They, and many non-Taliban Afghans, regard us, as they regarded the Russians, as foreign, anti-Muslim invaders. Moreover, they see that the government we are backing is corrupt and rapacious. Observers report that it is deeply involved in the drug trade, stealing aid money… Most of the country is in the hands of brutal, predatory warlords… Forced to choose between the warlords and the Taliban, Afghans are likely to choose the Taliban…

Most important, our mere presence in Afghanistan defeats our purpose. Polk concludes:

The harder we try, the more likely terrorism will be to increase and spread. As the history of every insurgency demonstrates, the more foreign boots there are on the ground and the harder the foreigners fight, the more hatred they engender. Substituting drone attacks for ground combat is no solution. Having been bombed from the air, I can attest that it is more infuriating than a ground attack…


The intersection of morality and self-interest

I said at the beginning of this post that I believe that the most important argument against imperialist wars is that they are immoral. So I find it very interesting – and hopeful – that the very fact that they immoral establishes the conditions for the defeat of the occupier’s imperial ambitions as well. The immorality of an occupation – that it, the brutality and the indifference to human suffering with which they are generally conducted – sow the seeds of resentment that leads to the defeat of the occupier. Polk subtly makes that point in his letter to Obama without actually bringing morals into the discussion (It’s virtually taboo in American politics to mix discussions of morality with war):

It is rare that insurgencies end with the establishment of a regime favored by the occupier – that was the experience of the British and Russians in Afghanistan, the Americans in Vietnam, the French in Algeria. Governments acceptable to the foreign occupier may last a short while, but almost always, those who fought hardest against the foreigner take over when he leaves.

US military intervention in Afghanistan has not only solidified the Taliban as an organization but has also created increasing public support for it. There is much evidence in Afghanistan, as there has been in every insurgency I have studied, that foreign soldiers increase rather than calm hostility. The British found that to be true even in the American Revolution.

Polk makes the same point with regard to the Soviet invasion and occupation of Afghanistan:

The brutal Soviet occupation shattered the Afghan social structure. Nearly one in ten Afghans was killed or died, and more than 5 million fled the country… During their occupation, the Russians crushed many ping-pong balls (a metaphor Polk uses for villages), but they could not defeat enough of them to win…The Russians won all the battles but lost the war. Afghanistan became the grave yard of the Soviet Union.

Our occupation of Afghanistan may be worth while to certain interests associated with the military-industrial complex. But even if “successful”, it will not solve the problem of terrorism. As Polk points out, “Since terrorist attacks can be mounted from many places, the only effective long-term defense against them is to deal with their causes.”

The cause of the terrorist threat that we face is Muslim hatred of our country. That hatred is fueled by our occupation of their lands and intrusions into their affairs (such as our overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iran in 1953) – which not coincidentally preceded their hatred of us. In other words, imperialist ambition sows hatred, which then blows back upon the imperialists – and not just the imperialists themselves, but also the innocent civilians who have the misfortune of living in a country that is largely controlled by imperialists.


Some lessons we could learn from George McGovern

George McGovern during the Vietnam War was the Dennis Kucinich of our day. He was the first politician I campaigned for or voted for. His campaign for president in 1972 was derailed by a barrage of lies and dirty tricks, reminiscent of the campaigns of Al Gore and John Kerry in 2000 and 2004. Most of all, his courageous opposition to the Vietnam War allowed his opponents to peg him as a pacifist.

But George McGovern was no pacifist. He was a bomber pilot and war hero in WW II, who advocated the bombing of Nazi concentration camps in order to more directly combat the genocide taking place in those camps. As a U.S. Senator in 1978, McGovern was one of the very few U.S. politicians who advocated intervention in Cambodia in order to stop the genocide taking place there. McGovern asked in response to that genocide, “Do we sit on the sidelines and watch a population slaughtered or do we marshal military force and put an end to it?”

But when it came to immoral imperialist wars his opposition was fierce. He was one of three or four U.S. Senators who opposed U.S. involvement in the early years of the Vietnam War, as manifested by the McGovern-Hatfield Amendment (defeated by 55-39), which required the complete withdrawal of American forces over a period of several months. In pushing for his amendment to end the war, McGovern was not afraid to point fingers at his Senate colleagues (Democratic as well as Republican): Rick Perlstein, in his book “Nixonland”, describes following the scene:

Opposing senators had spoken of the necessity of resolve in the face of adversity, of national honor, of staying the course, of glory, of courage. McGovern responded:

“Every senator in this chamber is partly responsible for sending fifty thousand young Americans to an early grave. This chamber reeks of blood.” (Senators averted their eyes or stared at there desks or drew their faces taut with fury; this was not senatorial decorum.) “Every senator here is partly responsible for that human wreckage… young men without legs, or arms, or genitals, or face, or hopes… Do not talk about national honor, or courage. It does not take any courage at all for a congressman, or senator, or a president to wrap himself in the flag and say we are staying in Vietnam, because it is not our blood that is being shed. But we are responsible…”

McGovern succinctly summed up the lesson that we should have learned from Vietnam (and Iraq) when he said “We seem bent on saving the Vietnamese from Ho Chi Minh even if we have to kill them and demolish their country to do it”. And more recently he said about his opposition to the Vietnam War, while alluding to the Iraq War:

I frankly don't understand the interpretation that once you get into a war you can't ever pull out until you've won it. We need more politicians in this country who are willing to say, "I made a mistake. Let's correct it as soon as possible."


Getting out

Near the end of his letter to Obama, Polk briefly discusses how to get out of Afghanistan:

How to get out is something former Senator George McGovern and I laid out in our book Out of Iraq, which with suitable changes can provide a template for Afghanistan. But as long as we are there, the war will continue, with disastrous consequences for all the things you want to do and we Americans need you to do.

In their book “Out of Iraq”, McGovern and Polk discuss: a phased withdrawal of coalition and mercenary troops with replacement by an international police force to maintain security; the release of prisoners of war; and reconstruction of the country (about which they go into great detail), with reparations to reimburse the Iraqis for their loss of life and property.

Most important of all is the renouncing of U.S. imperial and corporate ambitions. Because a major reason for the Iraq insurgency is hostility towards the American occupation, which is based upon the (accurate) perception that imperial ambitions and corporate greed are largely responsible for the American presence in Iraq, it is essential that we renounce all imperial and corporate ambitions. Words alone will not suffice for that purpose. Rather, we must cease construction of the numerous huge American military bases in Iraq and allow the Iraqis to void all oil contracts made during the occupation, so that they can be renegotiated on fair terms or opened to fair bidding.

These things, as well as the reconstruction and reparations, were recommended not only because they would go far towards stabilizing Iraq and restoring the international reputation of the United States, but also because they are the right and fair things to do. And as part of these gestures of goodwill, McGovern and Polk also recommended that we sincerely express our condolences for the numerous Iraqis killed, maimed, unfairly imprisoned, and tortured as a result of the American war and occupation.


Why these things need to be discussed

Many of the things I’ve discussed in this post are taboo in American politics. Right wingers get apoplectic when they hear talk of the need for our country to reduce its military spending or activity, or of the need to make amends and apologize for the wrongs that we’ve done. Even some DUers get very upset with me for talking about these things.

But to the extent that a nation – or an individual – is incapable or unwilling to admit a mistake or apologize, then there is no hope that it will change. It will continue to be controlled by its corporate and imperialistic interests, leading to an ever increasing cycle of violence begetting hate begetting more violence.

I’ve apologized many times in my life, and I see no reason why my country can’t do the same when it does wrong. As George McGovern said, “We need more politicians in this country who are willing to say, ‘I made a mistake. Let's correct it as soon as possible’.”

Kelly Dougherty, executive director of Iraq Veterans Against the War (IVAW), explained why we need to talk about these things at a Winter Soldier meeting in 2008:

It’s not going to be easy to hear what we have to say…. It’s not going to be easy for us to tell it. But we believe that the only way this war is going to end is if the American people truly understand what we have done in their name.

What the Winter Soldiers had to say was indeed not easy to hear or talk about. Marjorie Cohn and Kathleen Gilberd describe the testimony of numerous U.S. veterans in their book, “Rules of Disengagement”:

Veterans spoke about shootings and beatings of children and other innocent civilians as well as the torture of prisoners…. Ian J. Lavalle reported, “We dehumanized people. The way we spoke about them, the way we destroyed their livelihoods, their families, doing raids, manhandling them, throwing the men on the ground while their family was crying…”

But if we don’t talk about these things they will never change. Americans pride themselves on being a moral people. And most of them are. But they need to wake up and smell the coffee. They need to hear a lot more about – and think a lot more about – the things that their government does in their name. Once that happens they will no longer stand for it.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 07:51 PM
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1. K+1
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Thank you -- Another opinion on the US military in Afghanistan
From the editors of The Nation:

The United States and its NATO allies are losing the war in Afghanistan not because we have had too few military forces but because our military presence, along with the corruption of the Hamid Karzai government, has gradually turned the Afghan population against us, swelling the ranks of Taliban recruits. American airstrikes have repeatedly killed innocent civilians. Sending thousands of additional troops will not secure a democratic and stable Afghanistan, because the country is not only deeply divided but also fiercely resistant to outside forces. Indeed, more troops may only engender more anti-American resistance and cause groups in neighboring Pakistan to step up their support for the Taliban in order to stop what they see as a US effort to advance US and Indian interests in the region…

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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 12:07 AM
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3. Great post - thanks knr nt
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 06:12 AM
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4. Thank you
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 06:43 AM
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5. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Mosaic Donating Member (851 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
6. You're absolutely right
These immoral things the government does by stealth need to be discussed. I too believe most people will see the truth and do the moral thing once they understand the evil done in their name for far too long. Thanks for waking the sheeple up!
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
23. Of course, our corporate controlled media is a large part of the problem
They make it awfully difficult for Americans to keep themselves adequately informed.
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Mosaic Donating Member (851 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Corporate Propaganda
It's been going on far longer than most people are aware. It saddens me that so many live in such ignorance and that those devious enough to mislead us do so with such soullessness.
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clear eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
7. Gee, do you think running around all over the world
Edited on Sun Oct-11-09 08:56 AM by clear eye
with our military, uninvited, in the service of corporate interests, causing slews of collateral civilian casualties is a bad thing?
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 08:59 AM
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8. K&R.
So many billions have been spent shooting ourselves in the foot.

I think a lot of people voted for President Obama hoping for another way. The Nobel Peace Prize reinforces our hopes with those of the whole world.

With the same amount of money, we could have funded the building of infrastructure in Afghanistan, like schools, to educate women and thereby thwart the Taliban far more effectively than through clumsy warfare with its brutal "collateral damage."

We could have had a lot left over to fund the rebuilding of our own infrastructure and give more jobs to our own people in these times of economic upheaval (a.k.a. internal theft by the finance sector, a.k.a. "letting ourselves be guided by the wisdom of the free market").

But the permanent war cliques in government and weapons industries also have powerful lobbying machines. They can dress up major mistakes with glorious unwinnable principles like "bringing democracy" to other countries through maiming more of their citizens.

In addition to our overt military budget and its great destructive force, we supposedly have billions in our covert budget too. We could have dedicated our extensive covert budget to bring the 9/11 planners to justice and joined with other governments in the effort when they said "We are all Americans" and stood ready to hunt down and defeat those terrorists in courts of law.

If we had not had The Bush Cheney Gang foisted upon us. In both 2000 and 2004.

Our President would be in a much better position to withdraw from those conflicts if our Democratic leaders had dared to impeach Bush and Cheney when they achieved a Democratic majority in 2006.

I think it would help us move further toward a new kind of foreign policy if we prosecuted the Bush Cheney Gang for the many war crimes they committed and authorized for commission in our name.
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clear eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. The one good thing to have come out of the bank bailout
is that it has somewhat clipped the wings of the U.S.'s use of the military to advance corporate interests worldwide. At least we're not marching on the social democracies in Latin America, though odds are we continue to covertly support the anti-Democratic forces of the elites there, as we always have.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. I'm with you on all that, Overseas
So much wasted opportunities.

Including the part about prosecuting Bush and Cheney. This is not about the past, as our president says. It's about the future. As long as that kind of stuff is tolerated, we don't have much of a future.
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clear eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
10. Umm--did you happen to notice the 1.5M people who congregated
in Feb. 2003 in NYC to try to prevent the Iraq war? We know. We oppose. We sign petitions, we march. Almost none of it gets reported in the MSM to embolden others to join, the reporters don't follow-up w/ questions at White House press conferences, and the Fed gov't in general has gotten very good at playing deaf. In his first campaign, knowing public sentiment, even GWB ran on a plank of not having the U.S. play policeman all over the world. With the polls all saying that the great majority of us want this behavior to end, HOW DARE YOU BLAME THE GRASSROOTS?!!
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. There are many Americans who want our wars to end
Others don't care, and still others want to see them continue.

Your accusation of me that I'm blaming the grassroots for this is totally unwarranted and utterly stupid.
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clear eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. What I said about what you wrote is accurate.
Edited on Sun Oct-11-09 11:02 AM by clear eye
"Americans pride themselves on being a moral people. And most of them are. But they need to wake up and smell the coffee. They need to hear a lot more about – and think a lot more about – the things that their government does in their name. Once that happens they will no longer stand for it."

You wrote that you think these things continue because we "stand for it".

On edit: What is particularly destructive about pompous moralizing on how everyone else is ignorant ("need to hear a lot more about it") and apathetic ("they need to wake up and smell the coffee") is that it makes us feel alone, diminished, and impotent, when in fact we are in the majority.

You would have a lot better understanding of the real obstacles to stopping the use of our military as shock troops for the mega-corporations if you actually got out and attempted to organize real people in person or worked to create a coalition of the leaders of groups who organize. I wonder how Pres. Obama's campaign would have gone if he'd shaken his finger at us and reminded us how dumb and useless our neighbors are, rather than telling us, "Yes, we can".
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. If you think that statement was meant to apply to ALL Americans
you're not very bright. I'm an American too, by the way.
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clear eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. I refer you to the addition I made on editing my last remark. n/t
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. People often make derogatory comments about a wide range of groups
Here on DU, derogatory comments are made about such groups as "Congress", "Rebpublicans", and "the insurance industry". When such comments are made, anyone with the least bit of intelligence would realize that we're not talking about ALL people who belong to that group -- we're talking about the group as a whole.

My comment that you refer to applied to most Americans. Most Americans are not well enough informed. That's why I said that they need to hear more about these things. And yes, that is largely the fault of our corporate media, which I've written about on numerous occasions. Your example of Americans who have taken part in anti-war demonstrations clearly does not apply to the majority of Americans. If it did, we would have a lot less wars.

Surely you must understand that the commment you refer to was not meant to apply to all Americans. Are you really so dense as to not realize that, or are you just trying to cause trouble?
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. clear eye, I understand what you're saying. You're right that we ALL do not "stand for it".
On the other hand, the opposition has been so miniscule that it's difficult to say that Americans did not back the Afghanistan and even the Iraqi invasions.

I remember watching with horror and abysmal dismay as the user polls on AOL registered in the mid- to high-70% of respondents being IN FAVOR of invading Iraq. Yes, there were the minority who protested--bless them all--but Americans did APPROVE of those invasions.

Interestingly, by the elections last year the AOL poll numbers were completely reversed, with mid-70's saying we should get out of Iraq.

Of course, we're still there and only slowly withdrawing, but are we Americans taking to the streets? Not so much.

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clear eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Part of what I was saying is that w/ the media black-out
and lack of response from the federal gov't, and violent intimidation of demonstrators, people who did go out are doing it less, and we don't hear about those who are. In almost every county or city there are on-going weekly anti-war demonstrations of a handful of people outside a church, and most get the overwhelming support of their neighbors. We thought we had overwhelmingly elected a peace President, and the outside world still believes we did. (Hope they're right.)

The continued militarism has a lot more to do w/ the consolidation of the power of the mega-corporations over our major institutions than w/ any tacit support by the public. We don't even know if the people we see on the ballots and those we seat in our various levels of government are the ones who in fact won their primaries and elections b/c one of those mega-corporations, ES&S controls the voting apparatus.

Northcom is providing dangerous "crowd control" weaponry and military who magically become exempt from posse comitatus when they are put into "inter-agency response teams" to squelch peaceable demonstrators. See my excerpt of a firsthand account by a news photographer of some of what took place recently in Pittsburgh.

The media blacks out a lot of things, including the advantages of single payer health care systems and the ongoing massive corruption in the privatization of war, but it lets us know our every phone conversation and Internet communication is being sifted for phrases the gov't deems may make us an enemy of the state. Whistleblowers know that the likelihood is that any reporter they call has his/her phone listened in on.

Our one independent Senator tells us that Congress is almost wholly bought and everybody nods, but no bill gets any viable support in Congress to correct that w/ public financing of campaigns. On the contrary, the Supreme Court makes noise that it wants to allow more buying of Congress.

In this atmosphere of suppression and perhaps valid fear, how can we know how strongly our countrypeople feel, or even what actions they are, in fact, taking.
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clear eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. One more thing.
When the bank bailout was proposed, the citizens of our country HOWLED our opposition. Congress's phone lines and faxes were flooded. Little pocket demonstrations popped up everywhere for two weeks. Newspapers were flooded w/ letters of which they printed hardly any. Top economists offered alternatives and begged to be allowed to testify before Congress. The response was threat of martial law(!) and a bailout that exceeded by a factor of ten anything that had been openly proposed.

If you don't think that had a chilling effect on people's efforts to change the minds of Congress, I would like to hear what you think would.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. I agree with both of your replies. But I also know that most Americans are lazy about their
obligation to be well-informed, active citizen participants in Democracy. The overwhelming majority of us get our information from the very corporate sources that you cite.

I have colleagues who are left-leaning Democrats who are outraged when I bring their attention to the abuses of corporations and our government, the complicity of our elected "representatives" in the corporatist agenda, etc. etc. But when they go home they turn on the teevee and watch Survivor or Gray's Anatomy and do nothing to try to educate themselves so they can help to change the things they dislike about our nation.

Most of us think that casting a vote is all that's required to be a good citizen. That has been the downfall of our democratic process. And it has been accomplished through the efforts of the corporate media and our own elected officials.

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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
17. Excellent post, Time for change. Another often-overlooked aspect of our imperial policy
is proxy wars on behalf of our corporate overlords. The support of right-wing dictatorships in Central and South America, Africa, Eurasia, and the Middle East is part of the war we are waging on any nation that tries to become a democracy that serves the interests of its people and not of the corporate elites.

In the 80's, many of us opposed the Contras, the death squads in El Salvador, the slaughter of innocents in Guatemala, all of which were accomplished by the funding by OUR GOVERNMENT of para-military groups and government-sponsored groups who terrorized the citizens who opposed corporate rule. Many of the governments in these proxy-democracies exist only as long as they obey their rulers in Washington. Honduras is the most recent example of how this works.

We are expanding our military hegemony in South America with multiple new bases in Columbia to the outrage of the other nations in the area. Does our President heed those calls to stop the imperial expansion of the U.S. military into South America. No. He allows it to happen. So, the system of having U.S. "advisers" and U.S. units "training" with the armies of despots continues.

As a nation, we are so ignorant of how our military rules the world through brutality and through the imposition of terror through proxies. This is willful ignorance. Most of us do not want to know what is being done with our tax dollars and in our name. It is too disturbing and too disruptive to our comfortable way of life to become aware of the atrocities we inflict upon the rest of the world.

Thank you for trying to enlighten us about our imperial grip on the planet.

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clear eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Wilful ignorance? Not really.
Most of the public after working or looking for work all day and spending a little time helping the children w/ homework and/or tidying up, has just about enough time & energy to watch the 10pm news or read a few pages of the paper. They don't have the luxury even to find out which sources of online info are credible, much less to read them regularly. The MSM sources they use black out news of our country's covert efforts to control the politics of our neighbors for the benefit of the mega-corporations. Nor were they taught about these things in public school. If we had a real press that made a good faith effort to report these things, then I would agree w/ you that the public's ignorance about these matters was "willful".
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. Thank you bertman -- Excellent point about proxy wars
and support of right wing dictatorships -- overt and covert, which on many occasions have involved CIA assisted overthrow of democratically elected governments.

These kinds of things are as upsetting to me as our actual participation in wars. They represent a terrible blight on the legacy of our country, and have done tremendous damage to world civilization.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
20. Bravo, for another great post. K&R
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