Even the Maya are getting sick of 2012 hype

[IDemo]

By Mark Stevenson
updated 8:34 p.m. MT, Sat., Oct . 10, 2009

MEXICO CITY - Apolinario Chile Pixtun is tired of being bombarded with frantic questions about the Mayan calendar supposedly "running out" on Dec. 21, 2012. After all, it's not the end of the world.

Or is it?

Definitely not, the Mayan elder insists. "I came back from England last year and, man, they had me fed up with this stuff."

It can only get worse for him. Next month, Hollywood's "2012" opens in cinemas, featuring earthquakes, meteor showers and a tsunami dumping an aircraft carrier on the White House.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33261483/ns/technology_and_science-science/

[ck4829]

1. Some extinct civilization said the world is going to end... wait a sec

You mean there's still Mayans around? And they're getting 2012 fatigue?

But like the Mayans still being around and calling this hype will stop the doomsayers though.

[a la izquierda]

18. Yeah, they're still here.

God, I hope that was sarcastic...the idiocy is palpable on DU this morning.

[ck4829]

20. Don't worry, it was

I'm surprised more people don't know this, it might get in the way of a doomsday story though, maybe that's why.

[a la izquierda]

21. Thank god...

:)

I study Native Mexico for a living and at least once a week I either get a question from a student or an email, asking me about 2012. It's ridiculous.

[Kalyke]

63. I was thinking the opposite.

The fact that there are Maya still around lends more credibility to their calendar - they're not a ancient, expired civilization.

FWIW, I don't believe the world is going to end on Dec. 21, 2012, but I surely do hope that the (real) Mayan prediction that we will enter a period of enlightenment will come true. I wonder how Mother Earth/God/Yahweh/Allah plans to get rid of the fundies - they never will be enlightened.

[Mari333]

2. The Mayan calendar is merely based on the star systems making one full turn

Joseph Campbell spoke about it. The Kali Yuga is the same. People did watch the skies back then . Its just that. nothing more.
people need to stop taking linear 'time' so seriously. it doesnt exist anyway.

[imdjh]

4. They like getting their ass in an uproar. And normally I barf at "think of the children" but...

.... the first time I remember this end of the world bullshit, it was in the 1960's and the Jehovah's Witnesses had given a date for the end of the world, LIFE magazine wrote an article about it, and no one noticed that my little friends and I had read (and the written word was the same as an adult having said it) that the world was coming to an end. Good job assholes (LIFE, Jehovah's Witnesses, people in general).

[TexasObserver]

92. Agreed. It's merely a recurring moment in the sky as seen from earth.

It's something like every 26,200 years this alignment occurs.

It's only unique because our marking it in our minds makes it such. All the other night skies for the other 9,642,600 nights until the next are just as unique as this one. Only our looking at it makes it more unique than all those.

[imdjh]

3. What a bunch of idiots. I used to think that "new age" was opening the mind...

.... to possibility, but in the last 30 years I have come to view it is faddish or self serving silliness. In the greater scheme of things it doesn't matter if you are trying to revive ancient Mayan BS, ancient Druid BS, or ancient African BS- it still eventually comes down to "we are and you aren't", and starts to resemble ancient west Asian BS.

[1monster]

15. We are still in the age of Pisces and will be until somewhere in the neighborhood of

2300 to 2500.

While, according to those who believe, we are being increasingly influenced by the Age of Aquarius, we are still three to five hundred years away from being fully into the Aquarian Age.

If the Age of Aquarius is all the song has hyped it up to be, it will be a grand time to be alive. However, it is unlikely that any of us will see it... at least in this incarnation. Perhaps we can witness it in another.

Age of Aquarius

When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars

This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius
Age of Aquarius
Aquarius! Aquarius!

Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revelation
And the mind's true liberation
Aquarius! Aquarius!

When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars

This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius
Age of Aquarius
Aquarius! Aquarius!

Let the sun shine, Let the sun shine in
The sun shine in
Let the sun shine, Let the sun shine in
The sun shine in
Let the sun shine, Let the sun shine in
The sun shine in
Let the sun shine, Let the sun shine in
The sun shine in
Let the sun shine, Let the sun shine in
The sun shine in
Let the sun shine, Let the sun shine in
The sun shine in
Let the sun shine, Let the sun shine in
The sun shine in
Let the sun shine, Let the sun shine in
The sun shine in
Let the sun shine, Let the sun shine in
The sun shine in
Let the sun shine, Let the sun shine in
The sun shine in
Let the sun shine, Let the sun shine in
The sun shine in

[NoPasaran]

24. Of course that song was written as part of a musical stage play

Not necessarily the same thing as a prophetic revelation. There's no reason to assume that it has any greater meaning than does the soundtrack to Annie.

[SpiralHawk]

27. "Ditto." - Ronald Reagan's Dead Republicon Astrologer*

* Courageously channeled by the intrepid SpiralHawk from the vast netherworld of Republicon occultism.

[pipi_k]

101. So basically the Fifth Dimension lied to us...I'll never trust music lyrics again!!!!

:cry:

[MorningGlow]

19. That's a bit of a broad brush, isn't it?

Technically I'm a "New Ager", as I am a witch, and I work in a field in which I am in frequent contact with many other "New Agers" of many different stripes. None of the people I am friends with and associate with through my work are anywhere near as shallow as you describe, let alone "idiots" (thanks a lot for that). In fact, they are the exact opposite--kind, thoughtful, and wise. Plus they'd give you the shirt off their backs if you needed it.

I think you're focusing on the "wannabes" and not on the people truly seeking wisdom and knowledge. Please be aware that there IS a difference.

P.S.: And true "New Agers" are just as sick of the 2012 crap as anyone. We know the world is NOT going to end and the Mayans never predicted that. It's non-New Age people who are out to make a quick buck who perpetuate "the sky is falling" viewpoint.

[patrice]

29. Well said!

Om namah Shivayah! - roughly in other words - May the multi-verse be manifest in me.

[MorningGlow]

37. Thank you, Patrice

Namaste! :hi:

[DaveinJapan]

49. What does being "a witch" mean, exactly? Just curious. n/t

[MorningGlow]

51. What kind of info are you looking for?

I studied for the traditional "year and a day" and then was initiated by my elder into the coven; I was a founding member and remained in the coven for 15 years. At present I'm a solitary practitioner. Let me know what you'd like to learn about it.

[tama]

64. In this experience

being (whatever, witchever) does not make being any less curious. Not even about meaning of being.

What is perhaps even more curious is what people want from witches. Burning on a stake comes to mind, consumerist dreams and help with, wanting to be a wannabe is of course also a classic. :)

What kind of answers and hopes towards how a wich may help you've met on your path, any that work with you?

[MorningGlow]

68. Not exactly sure what you're asking, Tama

Can you rephrase? Thanks! :hi: (And yeah, burning at the stake, whether physical or metaphorical, is never that far away!)

[tama]

97. Hmm

Curious question came up: "What does being "a witch" mean, exactly?"

Got me wondering, is that what (at least some) people really want from witches, to know what being feels like? If so and in that case answer is simple, just feeling and experiencing as is and happens. :)

[MorningGlow]

98. Oh, I see

Depends on the person, I guess. I'm sure some are just looking for fodder to fuel their "yer nuts!" arguments; others might actually be curious to know, right? :)

[tama]

102. Any case

IMHO sharing a reality is nice but forcing this or that reality over reluctant Others fails a basic ethics test. If Gaia so chooses another story because she's bigger and inclusively so. And I do own a hat with text "NUTCASE" on it. :)

[DaveinJapan]

126. Not looking for any fodder here...

I wouldn't say a witch is any more or ness "nuts" than anyone else practicing various spiritual/religious pursuits (well, I dunno though since some are more nuts than others lol).

[tama]

131. I cannot deny wondering

and feeling curious, about how "nuts" witches are, agree to be, behave or otherwise express witchness, when they meet, recognize each other and/or are alone.

Methinks it varies from expression to other. :) If universally appliable games are searched for, punishing games don't seem to work very well in a free society, but mutual support is fine especially if taken as given, not expected and demanded.

[Kalyke]

65. James May is hilarious.

He was able to eat rotten Icelandic shark when Gordon Ramsay wasn't able to.

(I'm referring to your sig line. :hi: )

[MorningGlow]

67. He is, isn't he?

He is my absolute favorite celebrity--love his wicked wit, writing/presenting style, and brains.

I saw that bit with Ramsay--ewwww! :puke: :rofl:

[DaveinJapan]

125. Just curious about the day to day activities/ceremonies, etc...

Like for example if I were to explain how I used to be a Catholic I'd talk about Church on Sundays, the Sacramental Ceremonies perhaps, saying my prayers before bedtime etc...

I just know nothing about what being a Wiccan (is that different from being a Witch? is Witch a title, like "Priest" or something?), and was curious what it all entails. :-)

[MorningGlow]

128. Okay--check your PM in a bit n/t

[begin_within]

5. I thought that was supposed to have been the Harmonic Convergence of Aug. 16-17, 1987

In which case he should have said, "We already reached the end of our calendar. This is just the bonus round."

[havocmom]

8. no no, that was supposed to bring peace to the universe, if it didn't rip it apart

but, GHW Bush ended up screwing the woo-wooers by getting his war mongering ass in a position of influence. ;)

[patrice]

30. And his war may well have just ripped it apart.

Even with all of my understanding of all of the different philosophical perspectives that can allow me to cope with this war and those who support it, apparently, in my heart of hearts I willfully REJECT that "peace". This IS it, for me. I can't tell if that's my own inability to be Peaceful or whether that just the Way IT is above and beyond me, but that's the fact for me: I cannot pretend that this difference does not exist, nor that it does not matter. Our relationships are ripped apart by what has happened in the last 8 years.

I will never forget and, "God" help me, I will NEVER forgive.

[conscious evolution]

10. I thought that was the end

of the Aztec calender.

[waiting for hope]

46. It's not - it is the end of the 13th Baktun, a cycle of

roughly 394-years - they have calenders going all the way to 4,772. The number 13, however, is considered to be a sacred number for the Mayas.

[Jamastiene]

6. If only the Rapture ready bunch would get sick of the Armageddon meme.

Alas, a girl can dream.

[KittyWampus]

25. If only the Rapture would actually happen and get rid of the busy-body simpletons.

The rest of us could live in peace without their judgmental lunacy.

[Posteritatis]

42. Armageddon pretty tired of it, myself.. (nt)

[Posteritatis]

7. December 22, 2012 is going to be hilarious. (nt)

[Union Yes]

13. And on Dec 23rd, wingnuts will wake up and wonder, where is the rapture?

Then they'll realize, hoodwinked by their own stupidity yet again!

[1monster]

17. And go rushing about madly trying to purchase all the Christmas presents they didn't buy because the

world was going to end BEFORE Christmas.

Either that or they will have to figure out how to pay for all the luxuries they charged on their credit cards believing that they would never have to pay for them... :evilgrin:

[ThomThom]

71. Does It mean a lot of last minute Christmas shopping?

Or will they celebrate early. :-)

[Stuckinthebush]

14. Kind of Monty Pythonesque

I imagine a bunch of people on a hilltop waiting for the end of the world, with John Cleese waxing poetic about the history of the earth and culminating in raised arms to the sky.

Quiet for about 20 seconds....birds chirp...someone coughs...

Then Cleese says, "Well that's a let down. Anyone up for brunch?"

:D

[stubtoe]

16. Not to mention dull and dissapointing.

[LoZoccolo]

40. We should declare it "Hilarious Day" right now. n/t

[Posteritatis]

41. I endorse this product and/or service. (nt)

[havocmom]

9. The Maya are probably sick of the undisiplined getting the whole time thing wrong

Personally, I'm fine with end of the world, but it is not what the Maya predicted.

[Stuckinthebush]

11. It has generated a great conversation with my 12 year old, though

She asked me the other day about the world ending in 2012 because of the Mayan calendar. I told her that people have been predicting the end of the world since the beginning of recorded history. Then I prompted a great discussion with the question, "Why do you think people are fascinated with the end of the world?"

There is a website somewhere that gives all of the past dates of world ending prophesies. It's a great site. Anyone know where it is?

[csziggy]

28. It's the End of the World as We Know It...Again

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/9941/index.html

A fun site, but I don't think they are keeping it up to date anymore. I suspect the millennial stuff overwhelmed them.

[Pharlo]

12. 12222012 or, for non-Americans 22122102

is the day all computers switch from binary to trinary code.

So, well not 'the end of the world' as many humans believe it to be, try convincing the poor binary code of that.

[rd_kent]

54. all computers, huh?

I googled your trinary code and it is a sci-fi reference.

[SpiralHawk]

62. Yah - and everyone knows that we are really flipping to quatrary code that day

and that quintary code will follow as soon as everyone gets used to that.

So get used to it. And then get unused to it.

[MorningGlow]

22. Chicken Littles are having a field day

but this "end of the world" shite should NOT be attributed to the Mayans OR New Agers. It's merely a flip of the calendar, just as ours switches from 12/31/(year) to 1/1/(year) annually. Unfortunately the Mayan calendar's first numbers for a "new page" of their calendar equates to 13.0.0.0.0, which alarms people because it looks like the countdown to a bomb.

The Mayan calendar never predicted the end of the world. Not even a little bit.

“Anthropologists visit the temple sites and read the steles and inscriptions and make up stories about the Maya, but they do not read the signs correctly. They say that the world will end in December 2012....Other people write about prophecy in the name of the Maya. The Maya elders are angry with this. The world will not end. It will be transformed. The indigenous have the calendars, and know how to accurately interpret it, not others.” – Anthropologist and Mayan elder Carlos Barrios

On edit: And Roland Emmerich is an opportunistic asswipe, with his ridiculous movie "2012". He's just making it worse to make a quick buck.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. It shouldn't be attributed to modern Mayas, it is all the New Agers fault.

New Agers have been pimping this shit for years. They're the ones buying it all now. Just because some private business interests bought into it doesn't absolve woo woos of anything. They shat in their own nest.

[MorningGlow]

32. I beg your pardon

We "New Agers" most certainly are NOT to blame and I take great offense that you are generalizing that way. New Agers do NOT believe the world is going to end; as I said upthread, it's the wannabes who are mucking up the works. Read the whole thread before you spout off about something you know nothing about.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. In your own posts on 2012...

you've claimed there's going to be a major planetary alignment on 2012, everything is going to change on 2012 including some crap about world peace, and that there have been crop circles prophecizing 2012.

That's just as goofy as the apocalypse garbage.

[MorningGlow]

35. While it is true that there will be changes, you obviously

did not read the other posts on 2012 (apparently ones you found trolling the ASAH group) closely. We know that the world is NOT going to end and the changes have, in fact, been going on for years. December 21, 2012, will be significant, but not the ONLY moment that will be of importance.

"Some crap about world peace"--nice. You call yourself a leftie?

On edit--and stick to the subject. This thread is about the belief that the world is going to end in 2012; I have said New Agers know that is not so. Now you're dragging in talk about OTHER changes and calling them "just as bad"? Losing your grip on your argument, aren't you?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

39. It's not true there will be changes.

There's nothing signficant about the date.

" Now you're dragging in talk about OTHER changes and calling them "just as bad"? "

Well yeah. All the predictions are based on the same loose grip on reality.

[MorningGlow]

43. Because you say so?

LOL you'd better be careful, HFPS--you can't have it both ways: either there's no God, or you're the omniscient deity (albeit self-appointed). So which is it?
:rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. Because there's nothing significant about that date.

There is no god.

There are no psychic powers that can prognosticate the future.

[MorningGlow]

45. Okay dude.

That's your reality. And you're welcome to it. I'll stick with mine, okay? :hi:

[DaveinJapan]

50. Reality is not subjective, but perception is what it is.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

57. Oh, it's your reality too.

You can make up ancient Mayan prophecies, and phony planetary alignments, and chemtrails, and Santa Claus until the cows come home.

But it's still made up bullshit.

[MorningGlow]

69. Nope

Mine's a lot more positive than yours.

LOL HFPS, you're sounding fundie-licious lately, did you know that? Insisting that everything be your way, and anyone who disagrees is wrong, wrong, wrong. Kinda ironic. ;)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

70. Outlook and reality are two different things.

"LOL HFPS, you're sounding fundie-licious, did you know that?"

I'm thinking the same thing of you. You believe things because you want to to believe them, not because of facts.

[MorningGlow]

73. Dude.

There is a major difference between you and me. I do not give a rat's ass what you or anyone else believes. I may express what I believe on this board, but I do not insist that others believe as I do. (If I dare to explain my viewpoint once in a while, it is only for clarity's sake, as some people--ahem--like to declare they know everything about people like me when, in actuality, they don't, and yet present their opinions as fact. It is not to demand that everyone believe it without question.)

You, however, attack any viewpoint that is different from yours--in quite vicious and insulting ways, I might add--and keep insisting that everyone follow in lockstep with you. If that isn't fundie-ish, I don't know what is.

And how can you insist that everyone's reality is the same? Would you insist that a wealthy Japanese man's reality is the same as yours? an African woman's in Darfur the same as yours? I could go on. You know the drill. What we experience and how we live makes up our reality.

Anyway. Don't waste your breath demanding that everyone live as you do. I, for one, don't want to. Your way of life doesn't appeal to me in the least. :shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

77. LOL

"There is a major difference between you and me. I do not give a rat's ass what you or anyone else believes. I may express what I believe on this board, but I do not insist that others believe as I do."

Oh, that's actually something we have in common. You're wrong, but I don't give rat's ass that you're wrong.

"You, however, attack any viewpoint that is different from yours--in quite vicious and insulting ways, I might add--and keep insisting that everyone follow in lockstep with you."

Listen, if your faith is so weak that you find it insulting for people to point out that you're wrong- that's your own problem. Either get used to being wrong, or stop being wrong.

"And how can you insist that everyone's reality is the same? "

That's pretty much the definition of reality. The earth is round whether or not a person believes it's flat. The holocaust happened whether or not a person denies it.

"Would you insist that a wealthy Japanese man's reality is the same as yours? an African woman's in Darfur the same as yours?"

Yes, of course.

"What we experience and how we live makes up our reality. "

No it doesn't.

"Your way of life doesn't appeal to me in the least."

Neither, apparently, does reality.

[MorningGlow]

80. Phew!

What a lot of "no no no" you've got going there. How sad.

And you most definitely do care what other people think; otherwise you wouldn't be insisting that they're wrong and they have to believe what you believe.

Look, you're never going to convince me that your viewpoint is the only one--heck, you're not even convincing me that it's healthy--so just give it up, all right?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

82. Nah.

I'll just keep debunking pseudoscience and woo every time I see it, thanks though.

[MorningGlow]

84. Just by saying "no it isn't"?

That's "debunking"? Okay.
:rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

86. Pretty much.

Look how upset you got by it.

[MorningGlow]

88. That's not "debunking", that's just contradiction

For your homework, please review Monty Python's "Argument Clinic" sketch.

And if you want to believe I'm upset, you go right ahead. Make that part of your reality; it isn't mine. :hi:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

89. It's both.

And if it were only contradiction, you wouldn't have gotten all upset.

You got upset because you know I'm right. Dec. 21, 2012 will be just another day.

[MorningGlow]

90. R-E-A-D

And if you want to believe I'm upset, you go right ahead. Make that part of your reality; it isn't mine.

Okay, you're boring now. Have a nice day. :hi:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

91. "quite vicious and insulting"

:shrug:

[tama]

100. Universalism

That is pretty bold position, philosophically. Not logically consistent, full of wholes (empirical etc.), and generally foolish and often harmfull. But bold. :)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

109. Full of wholes?

lol

OK, explain how it's not logically consistent, full of "wholes," foolish, and "harmfull."

[tama]

110. It makes you behave badly n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

111. 1. That doesn't answer any of my questions.

2. It doesn't explain why you're behaving badly.

[tama]

116. You don't own

me and the reality I live in. You may claim so and believe so, but you don't. I'm not a slave to your universalist fantasies. And no, I have no quarrel with science.

If you are really interested in meeting the reality of my location, you are wellcome to do so and perhaps even learn something. But as long as you claim that all is and should be as your universalist fantasies dictate, you are not behaving respectfully and politely. But like someone who thinks he's a world-owner.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

118. You're still dodging.

But this business about "owning you" has nothing to do with anything.

"And no, I have no quarrel with science."

Given your posts on pseudoscience subjects in this and other threads, it appears you do.

"If you are really interested in meeting the reality of my location, you are wellcome to do so and perhaps even learn something."

The reality that you live in is the same reality that I live in. An objective, material universe where facts are elucidated by the scientific method, not ouija boards and wishful thinking.

[tama]

120. "Objective, material universe"

What does that tell you about yourself, what do you project? That you are fully deterministic machine, all your behaviour dictated by deterministic classical mechanics (electro-chemical processes) that mental phenomena and direct experience mysteriously "emerge" from.

So, you admit to being a fully deterministic machine and your machinehood then being a logical ex-nihilo-nihil phallacy, and not even that but universally claim that all others are just machines like you... why on Earth do you expect to be taken seriously? :)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

121. ...

"What does that tell you about yourself, what do you project? That you are fully deterministic machine, all your behaviour dictated by deterministic classical mechanics (electro-chemical processes) that mental phenomena and direct experience mysteriously "emerge" from."

Pretty much, yeah. Same as with you.

"So, you admit to being a fully deterministic machine and your machinehood then being a logical ex-nihilo-nihil phallacy, and not even that but universally claim that all others are just machines like you..."

Well, first off, I don't think "ex nihio nihil" is a logic fallacy. Or penis-like, if you were going for some sort of pun.

"why on Earth do you expect to be taken seriously"

Because I'm right.

[tama]

122. Buuuu!

Good one, that with penis phallacy! :)

Compassion is strange. Out of all universalist phallacies I'm most open to hypothesis that the answer to Einstein's question "is Universe a benevolent place"... DRUMMING::: is yes.

It could at least hurt a little less. In this reality we have these phenomena called "feelings", feeling is basic form of what is called "experiencing". Basic forms of feeling are feelings of pleasure and displeasure. Words like "empathy" and "sympathy" are also furthering this process of spatial feelings - which are both experiential and symbolic. Hey, symbols are experientally and symbolically causative!

And thinking further, thoughts happening and and as observables, to some parallel (thought-like?) movement that observes thought-forms of mental images (lets try to be little observant and allow also other sentient beings ability to experience mental images - which also may have causative power, emotionally and other physical-natural ways.

What I mean by this, and what is the difference between this location and local world-view and that location you claim is the universally valid, I'm OK with what ever universalism that answers to Einstein's question "yes" and/or acts as if that would be preferable answer, each deterministic machine being programmed (in Big Bang etc. ex-nihilo belief systems) to evolve compassion towards local cultures that prefer to keep on living (kids and all, you know) locally (not necessarily defining the "limits" of any location), compassion to... this immediate location, that also in this room and many other rooms where computer screens licker letters of this discussion, these symbols having causal emotional power at least in this locality (call me sensitive or any other scientific explanation in your local universe will do) and by this emotion of compassion, whether it is explainable in the frames of your "universalist" world view, I also feel and by feeling know that this emotion of compassion, emotion of cofeeling (feelings of pain etc.), is not limited to only this most immediate locality. It does not need to be universal but a good attitude (and supporting world view) would help to hurt less. But no hurry, no pressure. Localities (vs. universal dogmas) are not limited to any kind of universal dogma of "location" and/or what relativism means. We relativisms just happen, like forces of nature. :)

EditToAdd: Would you like some of what I'm smoking? Why be so "right" if it ain't making you any friends? And believe me, you're not hurting alone - how ever you do when you do - hurting is most shared form of experiencing. Have you better way to help me hurt less than hurt bit less your-self (the old heal thy self healer dictum :)? Writing to you has helped me hurt bit less and now I'm quite OK and cheerfull. I hope to share this bit of hurting bit less - as I like to believe in this locality - in the hope that you hurt bit less and we hurt bit less together, open towards our local experiences-feelings-universes. And not excluding this locality if it doesn't fit into someones universality. Not even trying. That wouldn't be compassionate. Nobody likes to be excluded. We humans are very social and have natural instinct towards feeling of instant gratification when feeling part and not excluded from. Glad to have your company on this board and inspiring this, these symbols and whatever your universalist world view is big enough to receive and include. :)

[tama]

124. What is the most basic form of faith?

Faith that if I now have faith that it is not futile to speak as I speak from this location as I do, but worth the effort. And can be even fun at the same time, even with all the pains involved. And as allways, if and when you have really good (local, not universal) ways to hurt less, please feel free to share. :)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

127. So basically you just scrambling random words together.

I'm not impressed.

And no, I don't want any of what your smoking.

[tama]

129. Yup

but with feeling. And not totally random, only poetically chosen. And what is being smoked is freely offered, no strings attached.

But no promises! :)

[conscious evolution]

48. You don't think the world is changing?

Not very observant,are you?
Take your head out of your ass and take a good look around sometime.

People worry about the illuminati.Its the ignorati we have to be worried about.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

60. If the world is constantly changing, what's special about 2012.

"Its the ignorati we have to be worried about."

And that's exactly the issue I take with woo woos and this 2012 nonsense.

[conscious evolution]

132. 2012 is the year

that baby boomers retiring hits its peak.
Historicly,the DJIA goes up when fewer people retire every year and goes down when the number of retirees goes up.
Starting back in 2006,the number of people retiring each year has gone up dramaticly.That number peaks in 2012 and stays at that level for the next 10 to 15 years.
Throw in all of the other economic crap we as a country have to face and it paints a pretty bleak picture.

[MorningGlow]

78. +1 n/t

[Kalyke]

72. Actually, there is.

The date ends the Mayan long-count calendar, thus marking the the date in which the sun will appear to rise into the patch of sky we refer to as the galactic center or nuclear bulge. It is the location of the super-massive black hole at the center of rotation for the Milky Way galaxy.

Granted, the sun rising here is not a particularly unique event. The phenomena can be observed for winter solstice dates of numerous years prior to 2012; however the interesting new aspect of this year will be that the sun will appear to just touch one part of the Dark Rift (that's the think that looks kind of like an umbilical cord and runs along the Galactic Equator).






This is an area of the night sky considered important to Maya cosmology and their fascination with rebirth (btw, Milky Way comes from Mother's Milk - Nuclear "bulge" - like a baby bump).

It will, however, take some two decades or so to travel completely through this dark region of the sky. It's not just a one-day event.

[MorningGlow]

74. Right.

Good explanation. :hi:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

79. Like I said, there's nothing significant about that.

There's a thorough debunking of this nonsense here if you're interested:

http://www.astunit.com/astrocrud/2012.htm

[Occulus]

94. Well, it's significant from a purely astronomical point of view.

Will our telescopes and other instruments be able to see anything special during this period?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

95. Um, no it's not astronomically significant.

Read the link.

No, there's nothing going on for telescopes or other instruments either.

[Occulus]

105. I did read the link, and I've actually read about this before.

Nearly everything that's being said about that one date in 2012 is hogwash. I was just wondering about any special opportunity in the field of astronomy, now with 0g of woo and no calories. ;)

[snooper2]

53. how did that Harmonic Convergence work out for ya?

:)

[MorningGlow]

75. Just fine, thanks!

:hi:

[conscious evolution]

47. I attribute it

to those End Times books by that LaHaye guy.
Remember,he is a hard core right winger who is known to be a misinformation/disinformation operator.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

66. Why is a Christian fundamentalist going to bother with Mayan mythology?

Seems to me every 2012 Mayan woo is rather solidly "neo-pagan."

[Baikonour]

107. Most, if not all new agers, see 2012 as a time of enlightenment. A new golden age.

Hence, "new agers."

So before you pass judgment on those icky "new agers" I'd suggest you do your research into the topic of 2012. Maybe start with some Ian Xel Lungold, or if you're more into cold hard facts, try Carl Calleman.

Hollywood and the MM has created this air of destruction around 2012. Not the new agers.

Try again.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

113. Not true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_phenomenon#New_Age_theories

New-agers have been pimping this apocalypse stuff for years. Hollywood and the media just got in on it recently.

For cold hard facts try Carl Calleman? The guy who claims the ancient Mayans predicted the current recession?

Ooooookay.

[SpiralHawk]

61. Here's the link - a report on what Mayan elders say about their own calendar

http://www.chiron-communications.com/communique%207-10.html

"What began with the arrival of Cortez, lasted until August 16, 1987 – a date many people recall as Harmonic Convergence. Millions of people took advantage of that date to make ceremony in sacred sites, praying for a smooth transition to a new era: the World of the Fifth Sun.

"From that 1987 date until now, Mr. Barrios says, we have been in a time when the right arm of the materialistic world is disappearing, slowly but inexorably. We are at the cusp of the era when peace begins, and people live in harmony with Mother Earth. We are no longer in the World of the Fourth Sun, but we are not yet in the World of the Fifth Sun. This is the time in-between, the time of transition.

"As we pass through transition there is a colossal, global convergence of environmental destruction, social chaos, war, and ongoing Earth changes. All this, Mr. Barrios says, was foreseen via the simple, spiral mathematics of the Mayan calendars."

[Warpy]

23. I can just imagine the mob scene at Chichen Itza 3 years from now

as every woo head in the world descends on those poor people. They're either going to have a field day selling off all their old clothes to them or they're going to need to go on vacation in the cities.

I don't know why calendar cycles bring out the crazies. It's just a shame 2012 is happening so quickly after Millennium Madness.

If I make it to the Yucatan by then, whatever I'm living in will probably be festooned with hammocks to house refugees from all the woo.

Cynics are always welcome in my house.

[MorningGlow]

26. Warpy, please read this post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6750754#6751103

As someone who you would probably describe as "woo" (which I find quite offensive), I feel the need to clear the air regarding how "we woos" feel about this subject. Please don't generalize; it does us and you a great disservice.

[I Have A Dream]

34. ...

:thumbsup:

:loveya:

[MorningGlow]

36. ...

:pals:

[rd_kent]

55. Woo's? THATS offensive?

Someone who believes something against all rational thought and without evidence ( and in the face of evidence contrary to what they believe) is a woo? And calling someone a woo is offensive? Bwahahahaha!

[MorningGlow]

76. Yikes there's that broad brush again

Home Depot's gonna sell out. :eyes:

[rd_kent]

81. I'm just trying to understand your poutrage at being called a woo.

Im open to hearing what you have to say. Until two posts ago, I had never HEARD of a woo, nor that someone was offended by it, so please, set me straight.

[MorningGlow]

83. DING DING DING and there it is

When on the defensive, accuse the other person of "poutrage"! You just gave yourself away, rd_kent. I think you DO know something about the issue. ;)

There is a long history of denigrating people on DU who believe in a variety of spiritual practices that get lumped under the classification of "New Age" as "woo woo". It is a belittling epithet that implies these people are crazy, ignorant, out of touch with "reality" and generally morons, none of which is true. Worse, use of this term does nothing to encourage discussion or show respect to a fellow DUer. I'm not going to rehash the whole issue; it's tiresome. Just know that there are plenty of respectful ways of disagreeing with people. Acting like a child and calling other people names is not one of them.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

85. What makes you think rd_kent is on the defensive?

"implies these people are crazy, ignorant, out of touch with "reality" and generally morons, none of which is true."

Ah, there's the problem. It is true.

People who place significance in 2012 are crazy, ignorant, out of touch, and generally morons.

[MorningGlow]

87. Real nice, Pron

Stay classy.

[rd_kent]

93. Really, I never heard that before.

I was starting to see when I read your post, but honestly, I was uneducated on the whole "woo woo" thing.

Now that I understand.......

I see your point of being offended at what you see as a put-down, and I agree, name calling doesn't do anyone any good. On the other hand, I feel that anyone who chooses to "believe" something to be true and factual, without ANY evidence to support it, is a bit of a, and pardon the expression, a nutcase.
I will always respect someones right to "believe" what they want, but I do not have to respect those "beliefs", nor do I have to remain silent when someone expresses those "beliefs" into a public forum.

[MorningGlow]

96. Nobody's asking anybody to remain silent at all

The worst disparity, IMO, is that people who believe as I do are less inclined to call names (not everyone, and not all the time--we all have our limits--but by and large), so the playing field is anything but level.

I apologize for implying you were baiting me, rd_kent. We "woos" tend to get a little tetchy about the whole thing, for good reason. Too bad you and others think we're "nutcases"; we're not at all--we just have had different personal experiences that have led us to believe what we do. But since they are personal experiences, we can't provide the "scientific proof" that would satisfy our critics. Hence the impasse. Too bad, really. :hi:

[rd_kent]

99. It IS too bad.

As I am open minded and not so firmly set in MY beliefs that I cannot look at things from another perspective. The reason I consider many to be "nutcases" is because it defies all logic and reason to believe some of that stuff, whether its wiccan, xtian, muslims, etc.... There is NO rational argument, that I have heard, that supports those beliefs.

[tama]

103. Even bigger problem

is believing something to be true and factual with SOME evidence to support it. The people with SOME evidence but not ALL evidence often try to hit others painfully on the head with THEIR evidence until all other evidence except theirs goes away. :)

[thelordofhell]

38. Nostradamus said the Mayans are full of crap

There's a quatrain specifically saying it somewhere.

[msanthrope]

130. You can ask Nostradamus yourself, here:

http://www.getodd.com/stuf/nostradamus.html

[Arkana]

52. Yeah, well, they're the ones that brought it up first.

Get the Mayans all together and say "NOTHING WILL HAPPEN, YOU DUMB FUCKING FUCKS", and I'll breathe again. :P

[omega minimo]

56. "What about the galactic alignment?"

"What about the galactic alignment?
If it were all mythology, perhaps it could be written off.

But some say the Maya knew another secret: the Earth's axis wobbles, slightly changing the alignment of the stars every year. Once every 25,800 years, the sun lines up with the center of our Milky Way galaxy on a winter solstice, the sun's lowest point in the horizon.

That will happen on Dec. 21, 2012, when the sun appears to rise in the same spot where the bright center of galaxy sets.

+++++++++++++++++++++++
Time of transformation?
But author John Major Jenkins says his two-decade study of Mayan ruins indicate the Maya were aware of the alignment and attached great importance to it.

Guatemalan Mayan Indian elder Apolinario Chile Pixtun sits at the Iximche ceremonial site in Tecpan, Guatemala.
"If we want to honor and respect how the Maya think about this, then we would say that the Maya viewed 2012, as all cycle endings, as a time of transformation and renewal," said Jenkins."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

58. What about it?

The Mayans were unaware of it.

John Major Henkins is a crank.

And the astronomy is all wrong.

[JanusAscending]

112. Sir/or Ma'am

You are so FULL OF YOURSELF....there's no room for SHIT!!!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

114. There's a debunking here.

http://www.astunit.com/astrocrud/2012.htm

:shrug:

Read it, and if you have a hard time understanding it let me know.

[JanusAscending]

117. I'm not talking about "it"

I'm talking about YOU!!! I've had enough of you, and the likes of you, okay? That's just my humble opinion; of you. Go away, you bother me child! on edit....don't bother replying as you are now on my IGNORE list!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

119. Too bad for you.

Not sure why you're hot and bothered because I've debunked your 2012 fantasies. You weren't even participating in this thread until just now. Or were you?


I lost an argument
With you today
I'm putting you on Ignore

"I wish you'd answer
My questions," you say
I'm putting you on Ignore

I moved back my goal posts
My strawman went long
I'm putting you on Ignore

Your facts are stupid
Your opinion is wrong
I'm putting you on Ignore

You won't let me win
Your logic's absurd
I'm putting you on Ignore

You misplaced that comma
You misspelt that word
I'm putting you on Ignore

You should be on Fox News
You'd fit right in
I'm putting you on Ignore

Shut up! Shut up!
Shut up! Shut up!
I'm putting you on Ignore

You always resort to
Ad hominem attacks
I'm putting you on Ignore

You stinky ugly
Dumb poopyhead hack
I'm putting you on Ignore

I asked your opinion
But it wasn't like mine
I'm putting you on Ignore

I don't care for yours
I'd rather just whine
I'm putting you on Ignore

You debunked my rave
You derailed my rant
Say sorry, I mustn't
Continue, I can't
I just wish you weren't
So ignorant
I'm putting you on Ignore.

[beam me up scottie]

133. It's too bad they don't have a "me, myself and I" ignore feature.

Seems like an awful lot of work.

[tama]

59. A mexican friend

told me some Mayans in Guatemala still use the old (quite complicated) calendar. And don't plan to stop on using their calendar after 2012. Just because some guy somewhere has interpreted their calendar in funny way.

And that said, even though 2012 does not mean the end of time, that does not mean that big changes would not be happening.

[Occulus]

104. Exactly- it's like the odometer on your dashboard rolling over

Well, that and the whole galactic alignment thingy. But, apart from that, there's nothing to see here.

Well, perhaps. I asked upthread if our telescopes or other instruments might be able to see something new because of this. Anything new will do. I'm just wondering is astronomers will see anything they haven't seen before.

[tama]

108. Anomalies popping up all the time

"Anomaly" means something "wierd" that cannot be explained in current explanatory framework, this just among newest among "astronomers seeing something they haven't seen before":
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17892-galaxy-study-hints-at-cracks-in-dark-matter-theories.html

Yes, anomalies keep popping up all the time and the pile has got so big that current (conflictory) theories look like swiss cheese. But hey, that's how science is actually supposed to be and function - a creative participatory process -, not offer a ready-made world-view for All of the Universe to believe in and behave accordingly - or Else. ;)

[Baikonour]

106. Blame Hollywood for the hype.

What was once a somewhat offbeat and quirky study in metaphysics and the effects of our physical placement in the cosmos (IE - alignments, our solar system passing through a different "dark" part of our galaxy, etc) has turned into a cash cow based on fear mongoring and bad acting (I don't know about you, but I think John Cusack sucks).

[anigbrowl]

115. It was there already. They're just cashing in on it

Personally, I'm looking forward to the movie, since I enjoy this kind of special FX eye-candy from time to time. It doesn't purport to be anything other than entertainment.

[Occulus]

123. And it'll be eye candy aplenty

There's a five minute scene floating around online. Really well-done from a visual standpoint.