Guns quit on US troops during intense battle in Afghanistan that left 9 dead, study says

[babylonsister]

Guns quit on US troops during intense battle in Afghanistan that left 9 dead, study says
Weapons failed US troops during Afghan firefight
By RICHARD LARDNER | Associated Press


When the battle in the small village of Wanat ended, nine U.S. soldiers lay dead and 27 more were wounded. A detailed study of the attack by a military historian found that weapons failed repeatedly at a "critical moment" during the firefight on July 13, 2008, putting the outnumbered American troops at risk of being overrun by nearly 200 insurgents.

Which raises the question: Eight years into the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan, do U.S. armed forces have the best guns money can buy?

Despite the military's insistence that they do, a small but vocal number of troops in Afghanistan and Iraq has complained that the standard-issue M4 rifles need too much maintenance and jam at the worst possible times.

A week ago, eight U.S. troops were killed at a base near Kamdesh, a town near Wanat. There's no immediate evidence of weapons failures at Kamdesh, but the circumstances were eerily similar to the Wanat battle: insurgents stormed an isolated stronghold manned by American forces stretched thin by the demands of war.

Army Col. Wayne Shanks, a military spokesman in Afghanistan, said a review of the battle at Kamdesh is under way. "It is too early to make any assumptions regarding what did or didn't work correctly," he said.

Complaints about the weapons the troops carry, especially the M4, aren't new. Army officials say that when properly cleaned and maintained, the M4 is a quality weapon that can pump out more than 3,000 rounds before any failures occur.

more...

http://www.newser.com/article/d9b8u6to0/guns-quit-on-us-troops-during-intense-battle-in-afghanistan-that-left-9-dead-study-says.html

[DJ13]

1. can pump out more than 3,000 rounds before any failures occur

And how many rounds per minute are the M4's capable of?

3,000 rounds before a failure seems really low if the weapons may be used in long duration fighting.

[TheWraith]

6. 700 to 950 rounds a minute, theoretically.

In practice though, the real speed of fire is limited by the available loaded magazines. A standard magazine holds 30 rounds, and an individual soldier may be carrying 10 of them accessible without difficulty.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

10. Not per the published numbers

Semiautomatic - 45 rounds per minute
Burst - 90 rounds per minute
Sustained - 12-15 rounds per minute

Per: http://www.armystudyguide.com/cgi-bin/moxiebin/bm_tools.cgi?print=2398;s=5_48;site=1

[ProgressiveProfessor]

9. Cyclic rate is irrelevant...sustained rate is what counts.

And don't forget the time required to change magazine. If you do not understand the above, don't feel too bad, Gray Davis did not either and look where he is today.

Also bear in mind that the basic loadout for a bubba with an M4 is only 210 rounds (7 magazines of 30 rounds each)

[thereismore]

52. Maybe they were supposed to do maintenance after every 1000? The troops will take the blame.

Unpatriotic truants that they are.

:sarcasm:

[Winterblues]

53. Three thousand rounds is ten times what a soldier normally carries.

That is a lot of shooting and a lot of carbon build up..It doesn't surprise me at all that they would suffer jamming after so many rounds without cleaning at least the chamber.

[gratuitous]

2. Maybe if we spent two billion dollars a day instead of only one billion

It's worth a try; and let's face it, those kids are just going to need to go to school again some more next year. Let the schools crumble, let the roads disintegrate. I mean, there's just no alternative but more extravagant defense spending, is there?

[babylonsister]

3. If you think I was suggesting that, you'd be wrong.

I just feel horrible that these soldiers were put in a position where they had to defend themselves, and their damned equipment wouldn't work. That is not their fault. I also wonder how many other times this has happened and hasn't been mentioned. :(

[gratuitous]

49. Not at all

I'm just bone tired of stories about military personnel not having working weapons, or enough socks, or lousy food, or not enough entertainment. We spend more than a billion dollars a day on the military, and when the 2009 budget numbers come in, it will probably look like $1.25 billion a day, every day. That's an awful lot of money siphoned out of the Treasury and very little to show for it. But it's very much a part of why we can't have universal health care. Or full employment. Or up-to-date schools with small class sizes. Or new universities. Or a boatload of other things we can't have, because we bought a couple of wars seven or eight years ago. And all our tax money has to go to their upkeep and maintenance. Just don't ask impertinent questions about why the most expensive, most lethal war machine the planet has ever seen can't get it together.

We're just being played for suckers.

[TheWraith]

4. Put any weapon in the field for a long time, and it's going to suffer failures.

The M4s are based on the M16 and other designs by Eugene Stoner. They're well regarded by a lot of people, but they're also considerably more difficult to keep clean than some other designs.

The problem is one of engineering: the more tightly designed a weapon is, the more accurate it is. But the more tightly designed it is, the less "wiggle room" there is for anything to go wrong with the mechanism.

[atreides1]

7. You're Right

Look at the AK-47, that is a design of simplicity. You can do almost anything to that weapon and it'll still do the job.

[Pavulon]

14. HK416 was just "taken back"

from the guys that get to choose platforms. The 416 will fit on the M4 upper. It uses a gas piston rather than blowing gas into the action. Not sure of all the MTBF data but it was much more reliable on paper. Was issued an M4 and maintenance was stressed. 3000 rounds is 10 mags give or take.

[vadawg]

29. dude hell of a big mags there :)

are you sure of the number

[Pavulon]

33. whoops, 100 mags.. may get a stoppage or two..

no , I was thinking 300. I have seen weapons fired to 1000 (ish) and not suffer a jam that could "sports" could not clear. Long day, beer math.

[Thothmes]

34. Frequent jamming at the wrong times was the biggest complaint

against the first generation m-16s in Vietnam.

[Captain Hilts]

39. Yes, as my friend who was there said, you could pull an AK47 out of a mud puddle and it would fire.

[izquierdista]

43. Soviet engineering

If you took a look at Soviet towns and factories, you would know why that was a design requirement.

[Captain Hilts]

50. I lived in Russia, actually. Yes, it's obvious.

Like Vietnam, there were two kinds of days in Russia: muddy days and dusty days!

[formercia]

46. One problem was the gunpowder.

The original M-16 round used an extruded single-base propellant but the powers that be decided that using a double-base ball powder would increase the muzzle velocity a couple of hundred FPS. They also specified the addition of extra Graphite coating on the powder grains for lubrication. The Graphite is what was fouling the gas tube and causing cyclic malfunctions. Some rounds wouldn't even fire from the Graphite that would settle in the case and block the primer opening.

The AK was more reliable in part because the Soviets used chrome-lined barrels to prevent corrosion. In tropical climates, an electrolysis reaction between the brass cartridge case and the steel chamber wall would cause corrosion and subsequent jamming.

[atreides1]

5. can pump out more than 3,000 rounds before any failures occur.

Where, on the qualification range? Under testing conditions? Gee, I wonder if Col Shanks has tried to clean and maintain a weapon in an environment like Iraq or Afghanistan?

We had enough problems keeping out M-16A2's maintained and cleaned during Desert Storm!!!

Keeping a weapon clean and maintained while out in the field isn't that damn easy, and I speak from personal experience and I was the unit armorer for two units I was assigned to!

[vadawg]

8. best and most reliable weapon i ever used was an old bolt action rifle

i even dumped an ak in order to keep the rifle.... simplicity works when tech fails

[ProgressiveProfessor]

12. When it comes to autoloading rifles, never found anything better than an AK-47 for tolerance of crap

Really engineering wonders.

[vadawg]

15. for me it was mostly the comfort factor, i gre up with an old bolt action

now when it was close quarter i used whatever i could get but at the end of the day the rifle always came with me... though i got to say i would love to get a schmiesser machine pistol, those are the bomb but i havent fired one in years and might just be glorizing teh memory..

[ProgressiveProfessor]

19. I love a bolt action when you need to reach out and *touch* some one

but up close or during MOUT, short and autoloading rule.

[vadawg]

24. i definetly am old school, though i wouldnt say no to some nice new shiny piece

i kinda hate to be the first guy to ever caarry a new weapon into battle i would rather have a lot of guys do that before me, the rifle i had was an old enfield and i loved that thing...

[aikoaiko]

11. Its seems like this "report" comes out during every conflict and the solution is always the same.

It would be interesting to know the nature of the failures.

[TheWraith]

30. Probably dirt, grit, and debris.

In a place like Afghanistan, with a lot of free-blowing particulates, shit is going to get in every crevice of a weapon. I know that they've had problems in Iraq with some of the weapons such as the Mark 19 40mm cannons and the SAW light machine guns due to grit, and the standard gun lubrication being nearly useless in the desert.

[Monk06]

13. "The AK 47 when you absolutely positively have to kill every mother fucker in the room"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlsXmZpOzqI

"Accept no substitutes"

[Greyhound]

16. Over-complicated and over-priced are the very definition of the American military.

Issuing low-cost, reliable equipment hurts the bottom lines of too many corporate welfare queens. So a few unimportant people die, well guess what, they were going to die someday anyway. Let's not forget what our primary mission is here, stealing as much as we can as fast as we can!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. Have you ever had to carry a weapon because your life depended on it?

If so, cost becomes less of a factor. BTDT

This is the first widely reported incident of problems with the M-4 in theater. I actually find that surprising. Willing to let it work through the system. IME the AK-47 will take more crap into its mechanism than any other autoloading rifle, but the M-4 has many things to commend it over the AK.

[vadawg]

21. me all i care about is if i pull the trigger will it go bang, will it hit the target

and will it put the target down, now i dont care if it costs $1,000,000 or $1 as long as it works, my buddy who was is a marine loves the M-4, another i knew isnt sold on it, like most things in life when your life depends on shit everybody has their own favs.

[Pavulon]

20. The M4 , like any quality weapon, is reliable.

if maintained. If you are in the middle of ass fuckistan and there is no clp, well that is a problem. I have used diesel to clean a rifle but it is not "right". Motor oil can be used in place of proper lube but it draws dirt. The M4 should be able to fire 10 mags in full auto without a failure.

There is a debate about the use of HK416 type gas guns, they are (or were) used by operators who could choose weapons.

[TheWraith]

23. That's not exactly fair. The current firearms issued by the US military are quite decent.

They're a good compromise between cost, reliability, and accuracy. However, they weren't designed to run continuously, long term, in the very hostile environment of someplace like Afghanistan without better maintainence and greater availability of replacements.

[Mari333]

18. I will bet the MERCENARIES we are paying for over there are well equipped

our own soldiers not so much.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

22. Their equipment is markedly similar to US

and the primary rifle is an M4 or equivalent.

[Pavulon]

25. My understanding is..

they use colt m4a1 or semi auto bushmaster rifles. Basically the same issued to infantry. However if they have access to new weapons and cleaning kit that could be more of a factor than the type of weapon. Who know.. I saw some of the oldest and shittiest rifles in the arsenal issued to units that had brand new m4's and m9 sidearms. No rhyme or reason to it.

[vadawg]

26. i would say from experience the US troops are the best equipped in the world..

sometimes shit goes wrong with equipment especially in combat...

[krispos42]

27. It would be interesting to see what the US civilian market can do with this

Because civilian-legal versions of the M-16 and M-4 are legal and very popular in this country you can get them made in a brazillion different configurations. Millions of AR enthusiestsm, thousands of independent gunsmiths, and dozens of manufacturers compete intensely on this issue of making the AR-15 better and more reliable.


Ruger just came out with their own carbine-length AR-15 model called the SR-556. Not being an AR affectionado I can't comment on what the various upgrades really mean, but it seems to have a lot of stuff to help reliabilty.

http://www.ruger.com/SR556/features.html

Two-stage chrome-lined gas piston, chrome-plated gas regulator, bolt carrier, and barrel. That's a heck of a lot of chroming!


Guns & Ammo is reporting in the current issue that Colt just lost exclusivity rights to make the M-4, and that the DoD would be having bidders on new ones. Maybe this is what we need, Ruger to get into the mix.

[Pavulon]

28. HK416

upper uses a gas piston and will sit on an existing lower. On paper they are much more reliable. This is a current issue in the communities that get to choose weapons. The 416 was just "recalled", they are not happy.

[krispos42]

31. I was just looking up on Wikipedia what an HK416 was, actually

:-)


I've also noted before that the Mini-14 (based on the Garand and M-14 actions) has a reputation for being reliable. A heavier-duty, more accurate Mini-14 would seem to be an option, if the Pentagon felt like switching. Better barrel, more polished firing mechanism, tactical foregrip, bayonet mount, and you might have something worth considering.

[Pavulon]

35. I dont own any of these , but have fired several..

my impression of the mini14 was that it was a great truck gun. Cheap and reliable, of the 5 or 6 I fired none were terribly accurate. The m16 / m4 was accurate and reasonable to field strip and clean. When we deployed stuff like CLP did not make the trip. Thankfully it turned out to be a peace keeping event rather than a shooting war. But I was confident in the rifles I was issued. M9, not so much. But they were ragged out.

I liked the sig 550, I lived in switzerland for a few months and saw these at ranges. It was a piston operated weapon and seemed accurate. Since there was a language barrier I did not get to field strip it, but it seemed to be a high quality weapon.

Some variation of the existing lowers and a gas upper may work. I can say I have never fired any AK variant that was as accurate as an M16/M4. Not that they arent out there, just never fired one.

[Selatius]

32. They should've used AK-47s.

Afghanis typically run around with AK-47s and possibly AK-74s. The 47s never jam, and I think that's also true for the 74s. There's a story that the late Col. Hackworth once pulled an AK-47 out of the grave of a dead Afghani who had been dead for about a year. He loaded it up with a fresh clip, and he fired the thing off like it never was in the earth.

[Pavulon]

36. I have had an ak74 jam..

double fed on full auto fire. First magazine 3rd burst of 3 or 4 shots. Required the mag come out to clear the jam. Not good. Probably a magazine that sat loaded for a long time, who knows. All weapons jam.

[Selatius]

42. While I believe it's possible for the 47s and 74s to jam, they're a lot less prone to jamming.

Especially jamming due to environmental factors, such as the dust and grit floating around in Afghanistan or Iraq. If it came to having a dependable weapon out there in a harsh, dirty environment, I'd rather have a 47 or 74 any day over an M4 or an M16A2. Then again, I am biased, given my family grew up in Viet Nam during the war and were very familiar with 47s.

[Pavulon]

45. During that time the A1 my dad

carried there was a terrible weapon. No one was ready for them. He was not a fan. The m4 seemed to be more reliable during my time. We still had OLD a2's floating around in the NG. However cleaning was ingrained. Given a choice I would take an M4a1, although the germans loved the G3 and g36's they had. The sig 550 seemed like a quality weapon. However I never trained on either.

The AK is a very reliable system. Balancing accuracy is the challenge.

[Selatius]

48. Yeah, accuracy is the main drawback for the 47. Anything beyond 200 yards is beyond range.

But in Viet Nam, the statistics were rather grim. Often, a firefight would occur within 100 yards, sometimes 25 yards or less because the under-brush was so thick. I don't know of any relatives who were in firefights that weren't up-close and personal. My extended family was an eclectic mix of nationalists who didn't like any outsiders, pro-American elements, and pro-communist elements. That war truly was a family affair, but most of them used Soviet weapons except for one or two ARVN M14s. The Soviets and Chinese simply flooded the place with AKs.

[Edweird]

37. A fine target rifle ideally suited for varmint hunting. A horrible battle rifle.

It's under powered and prone to jamming. It's a high velocity .22 caliber round that's illegal to use on DEER in many states due to it's general wimpishness. They tried to remedy the deflection and lack of penetration by using depleted uranium - a lose/lose situation if there ever was one.

The Army has been testing some heavier caliber battle rifles, but that's happened over and over and nothing ever comes of it. Maybe this time will be different.....

[Pavulon]

41. I am unaware of any round that contained DU..

the round will deliver significant wounds, even with a FMJ. It will kill and deliver horrific injuries. ss109 or M885 depending on the rifle and its type was the round used if memory serves. Been a while.

[Edweird]

44. I thought the brown tips were DU. I could be wrong.

[WeDidIt]

47. In war, it is more desirable to wound than to kill.

Wounding an enemy horribly is more desirable because fo the psychological effect and the fact that you can take more than one enemy out with a hit.

Killing the enemy only takes out one of the enemy and can strengthen the resolve of the remaining enemy.

[Captain Hilts]

38. The grit in Afghanistan is so very fine....nt

[old mark]

40. The old M-16 is still a fragile system - gas operated, not piston operated,

it does not like to function when dirty. It was unreliable in Vietnam and was supposedly "fixed", but the very nature of the Stoner design makes it prone to fail when heavily used. It is very accurate, but fussy and complicated. The AK is about as infallible as an automatic rifle can be, but is not noted for accuracy and has slightly less effective range. I have fired both, among many others, and I own an old Chinese SKS and several bolt actions.

mark

[thereismore]

51. Let's blame the troops! They did not do prescribed maintenance.

:sarcasm: