Magpies Grieve for their Dead: article:

[amborin]

"Dr Marc Bekoff claims the rituals - which involve birds laying 'wreaths' of grass alongside roadside corpses - are proof animals feel complex emotions.

animal behaviour expert Dr Bekoff, of the University of Colorado had an encounter with four magpies alongside a magpie corpse as proof that animals have a 'moral intelligence'.

'One approached the corpse, gently pecked at it, just as an elephant would nose the carcass of another elephant, and stepped back,' he said. 'Another magpie did the same thing.

Next, one of the magpies flew off, brought back some grass and laid it by the corpse. Another magpie did the same. Then all four stood vigil for a few seconds and one by one flew off.'

<http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1221754/Magpies-grieve-dead-turn-funerals.html>

[robinlynne]

1. Why does anyone doubt that animals feel complex emotions? Does anyone doubt that?

[Triana]

7. Some ignoramouses/animal abusers do. They claim animals don't feel anything and have

no souls.

IGNORANT.

[fascisthunter]

11. but that's just a way for them to excuse their abusive behaviour

toward animals. They ain't foolin' anyone but themselves.

[Rebubula]

27. Well...

...Animals do NOT have souls.

Of course, neither do humans.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Because it challenges the sense that we are that special

trust me, I see it RIGHT NOW with the two remaining parrots. Cookie is calling for his brother...

I wish I could hug him... but this conure will byte... no matter how well meaning I am.

[WhiteTara]

35. I think it comes from that bible "dominion over" crap

by being better than, the other can't possibly have the same whatever as the dominator.

[robinlynne]

44. makes sense.

[NashVegas]

38. White Man's Guilt & Hyper-Rationalism

They can't - or don't think they can - view animals as sentient and still justify eating one for dinner.

[TwilightGardener]

2. I can certainly believe the birds are gently pecking at a non-moving

unresponsive bird, and wondering why it doesn't get up. I can believe animals would be anxious at a non-moving member of their species, as it's behaving in an uncharacteristic fashion. I don't think magpies (as smart as they are) or ANY animal understands the nature and permanence of death the way humans do.

[robinlynne]

9. puleese.

[amborin]

13. i have a

picture of one of our dogs grieving at the burial of her 'brother'

when i got the film developed and saw her expression, it was amazing to see

she has also spent time sitting on top of his grave (it 's in our backyard)

[EFerrari]

15. Humans don't understand the permanence of death

and have had wars over it.

[imdjh]

16. They just don't make up shit about what happens after death, like we do.

[TwilightGardener]

21. Well, no, I'm saying they don't understand "dead". They only understand

"not moving", and if they have object permanence, they might understand "not here anymore" when the body is gone. Whether or not they have sad feelings towards the "not moving"/"not here", I guess that depends on the species. I know dogs can certainly seem to miss an owner. But that's about it--don't believe they actually understand and acknowledge death, as such. Hell, even little kids don't, until a certain age.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. The more research we do into animal behavior the more we learn

they are not that unlike us... or rather we are not unlike them.

We are part of nature, not above it.

As to a sense of loss or death... well one of the indications of social behavior that we have in the fossil record for humans is burial. What if other critters do things that are similar but not that permanent? You know there is this thing called tools. Though we may, not you and me mind you, but if humans survive we may start to see this more permanent graves in chimps. They are, after all, now starting to use tools... as in actually observed in the field.

Right now I am dealing with a conure that is grieving, honest to goodness grieving, for his "brother."

is he doing it the same way I am? No... but his vocalizations looking for his brother tell me he is.

And no I am not ascribing my feelings to him. Birds who are bonded DO grieve for their missing partner.

[TwilightGardener]

23. I agree that the more intelligent animals (conures, of course, dogs, chimps, etc.)

understand when someone they are close to is missing, and will be anxious or sad or lonely. I just don't think they perform rituals in the sense of a funeral send-off or memorial, because they don't understand death--that is indeed anthropomorphism, and a misinterpretation of behavior. Understanding death's nature and permanence, and its inevitability, are exclusively human (and fairly recent) traits. Perhaps our human ancestors learned to bury the dead because...the dead smell bad and would get eaten by critters. Then they learned how to preserve the body in case the body came back to life in some way (mummies). Look how long it took the human species to finally understand that bodies cannot be reanimated under any circumstances (religious beliefs and Ted Williams notwithstanding).

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. We know from animal research that elephants indeed KNOW about death

and have a sense of self. We know that of dolphins too.

As a science fiction writer I keep up with that research. After all we need to know what is sentience. And research is showing that is more wide spread that we humans like to admit.

And we are finding out that higher apes also have a sense of self, which is required for a sense of loss... death.

And I can tell you that right now I have a couple birds that are looking for their brother. They have not seen the body and I am debating whether to show it to them or not before we bury it or burn it.

The problem with this research and why it is hard to accept, is that it puts us not that much higher than the rest of higher chordates... and many humans, especially those who believe in Western Religions, or god gave us this kingdom to use, have issues with this. It puts the religious belief that we were created in the image of god (genesis I) quite on a conflict with ... we are part of nature and quite brutally honest not that special.

I know at this point I don't believe in the great beyond... so does that make me less human?

Death is death is death, end of the road... period.

[robinlynne]

31. and how is it that you know what they feel and know?

[TwilightGardener]

33. I could very well ask the same question of anyone who insists

that animals have funeral rituals, know how to say goodbye, come to visit graves, etc.

[robinlynne]

34. but there have been hundreds of research projects proving that animals are intelligent and

have these feelings. None saying the opposite, as far as I know.

[TwilightGardener]

39. Where did I say they weren't intelligent or had feelings?

Answer: I didn't. Just said that to attribute an understanding of the meaning of death to them is pushing it too far.

[robinlynne]

45. I disagree, strongly. Of course they understand death and mourn and grieve!

[edwardian]

46. Animals grieve. Fact.

Seen it myself plenty of times. Human arrogance and prejudice denies them full consciousness. Anyone who knows animals knows they are as much "here" as we are.
It should be obvious that to be responsive to the world one would need to be aware of oneself as distinct from ones surroundings. Others would then also be noticed as distinct and identifiably so. All sentient beings experience a world with them as central and the world as peripheral. Identification with ones own sort is likely as deep for animals as for us.

[TwilightGardener]

47. They may miss a partner or buddy or flockmate, and feel lonely or sad or anxious--

IF they are intelligent enough to hold a memory of that animal or human once no longer physically present. But I don't consider that the equivalent of grieving for one who has died, in the human sense. I notice that people in this thread seem to be missing that little nuance, and jump to the conclusion that I'm saying animals have no feelings, intelligence or awareness whatsoever.

[mike_c]

3. oh boy-- I don't doubt that animals-- at least many vertibrates...

...have emotions or something like them. But it's still not a good idea to interpret them in human emotional terms, or to suggest that any other species interprets its own emotions in human terms. That's anthropomorphism.

[nashville_brook]

8. i've been guilty reading emotions into human behavior when really there was only self-interest.

that was my whole first marriage.

:evilgrin:

[EFerrari]

12. That's a lotta first marriages.

:)

[nashville_brook]

32. touche.

:)

[EFerrari]

14. Speaking of emotions in solely human terms is anthrocentrism.

:evilgrin:

[Chulanowa]

17. At the moment, no, it's not

Currently the only understanding of emotions we have is our own. Given our limited scope, we can't be said to be "anthrocentric" about it - if we had secure knowledge about the emotions and thought process of other animals and still applied our understanding of just human emotion, then we could be said to be anthrocentric about it.

For the moment we're just understanding and learning, using the best tool we have at hand - which happens to be the only tool at hand that we know how to work.

[EFerrari]

25. Our limited scope would seem to me to be

precisely what makes our "understanding and learning" anthrocentric. :)

[lumberjack_jeff]

41. "Antrocentric" is the only kind of speaking and thinking there is. n/t

[XemaSab]

37. Go say hi to that magpie in the wildlife museum for me

:D

[snagglepuss]

4. So interesting. Thanks for posting.

For me a story like this is a huge stress reliever. Stress just leaves my body as my mind shifts to something so mysterious.:hi:

[Vinnie From Indy]

5. The story goes on...

After the Magpies flew off from their dear, departed friend, brother, sister etc., they were observed flocking together in a tree behind a large Payless Liquor Store. It seemed at first that the Magpies were chirping and skreeching at a very abnormal volume. Some of the Magpies even appeared to be singing. It turns out that at regular intervals the Magpies would swoop down into the liquor store dumpster and get a beakful of booze from some broken bottles and then fly back to the party. Dr. Bekoff offered that he had never before seen anything like it. A Magpie wake! Who knew!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

24. hahahaha!!!!

[LeftHander]

6. Magpies also plot all kinds of nefarious activities.

[robinlynne]

10. Monkeys surely do.

[chatnoir]

18. That, they do

You can almost see the little cogs turning in their heads on what to get up to next.

[BanzaiBonnie]

19. We do need to not anthropomorphize animal behavior

It is different. I happen to think that many times, it is more honest. And animals DO grieve and miss their animal friends. I have seen it too many times to doubt that they do feel emotions. Their experience and understanding is different than ours


One of my friends does animal communication and I consulted her after we had a doggie visitor one long weekend. I asked my friend if she would ask our dog if she liked having company. Molly the dog's response was telling. Molly's response was "that dog has a tail for a head". THAT was what she communicated. Sounded like an insult. We surmised from that, she did not really ENJOY the visit.

[lumberjack_jeff]

42. ROFL!

Intentional or not, THAT was funny.

[yawnmaster]

28. I don't know about magpies, but I've never seen a crow mourning another animal...

but in fact have seen them gleefully (they do express glee) pecking and eating body parts of the dead.
Maybe they mourn and grieve their own, but they sure don't mourn other species.

[Rebubula]

29. As the old saying goes...

...even if you could teach a Lion to speak English - you would not understand anything that he said.

[XemaSab]

36. That's a terrific quote

:D

[Cleita]

30. I've seen pigeons mourn the death of a mate, if hit by a car.

Even when the corpse is removed they hang around flying in circles where the bird died.

[intheflow]

40. Seems just as likely they were trying to offer the dead bird food

in the hopes that their friend would be revived by a food smell, re-awaken and take nourishment, as the hypothesis that they were laying funeral wreaths.

[AlienGirl]

43. Only if magpies ate grass or had a well-developed sense of smell...

[intheflow]

49. Well there you have me.

I have no idea what magpies eat or what their sense of smell is. I was really just commenting on there could have been other motivations--equally sentient!--for the behavior.

[AlienGirl]

51. They might eat grass seeds or occasional shoots, but not the stems. Smell is mediocre.

Magpies eat about 70% animal foods (bugs, invertebrates, etc.) and 30% plant foods, mostly seeds and grains.

Birds' sense of smell isn't very well developed in general, with the exception of vultures. Not likely sharp enough to smell grains of grass.

I don't know what this behavior would have meant to the birds, but I don't think the smell of food could be a likely motivator.

Tucker

[yawnmaster]

48. What is grief? eom

[depakid]

50. Magpies are self aware: they are one of a handful of species that recognize themselves in a mirror

Self-recognition, once thought to be an ability enjoyed only by select primates, has now been demonstrated in a bird.

The finding has raised questions about part of the brain called the neocortex, something the self-aware magpie does not even possess.

In humans, the ability to recognise oneself in a mirror develops around the age of 18 months and coincides with the first signs of social behaviour. So-called "mirror mark tests", where a mark is placed on the animal in such a way that it can only be observed when it looks at its reflection, have been used to sort the self-aware beasts from the rest.

Of hundreds tested, in addition to humans, only four apes, bottlenose dolphins and Asian elephantsMovie Camera have passed muster.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14552-mirror-test-shows-magpies-arent-so-birdbrained.html?DCMP=ILC-hmts&nsref=news4_head_dn14552

They also recognize (differentiate among) people and cars.

Stories abound about the wily crow's ability to form seemingly complex thoughts. (Personally, we knew a man whose job duties occasionally included shooing the pesky birds away from the doors of a busy office building. The flock learned to recognize his uniform and specifically sought him, and others in similar clothing, out for dramatic dive-bombings.)

But until fairly recently, scientists haven't given the birds much credit for intelligence.

"In the past, people thought birds were stupid," Christopher Bird (yes, his real name) of Cambridge University's zoology department told BBC News. But several recent studies show that the corvid family of birds -- which includes crows, ravens and magpies, among others -- may have been underestimated all these years, especially where reasoning, memory and tool-making abilities are concerned.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/unleashed/2009/05/crows-are-smart.html

Check out the videos at the links above

[amborin]

53. fascinating!

[deaniac21]

52. I know this....there are many animals that taste really good!