THIS is why progressives adopted a "no compromise" stance.

[Daemonaquila]

To all the folks who said "Have patience, it'll be fixed in conference..."
To all the folks who said "It's better to compromise and then fix it later..."
To all the folks who said "Something is better than nothing..."

The Massachussetts special election, Brown v. Coakley, is today's awesome example of why you have to fight the good fight for the right bill, because you ain't never gonna get that second chance.

Today, Obama is campaigning his guts out for Coakley. If Brown wins, he is going to torpedo the sad sack of crap that our health "reform" bill has become. At best, the bill will be passed in its most oppressive incarnation thanks to Harry Reid and his surrender monkeys. Why?

Because today, the White House is working overtime to get the House to accept the odious Senate bill unaltered so that something, anything, no matter how awful, no matter who gets thrown under the bus - unions, women, families... - gets passed. If the bill doesn't have to go through the Senate again, 41 Senators won't have a chance to kill it.

Obama's first State of the Union is days away. He has to be able to claim some real accomplishment somewhere. He can't talk about hope. He can't talk about patience. His numbskull staff who got him into this mess in the first place feel he can't walk in front of the mike without passage of health "reform."

So here we are. I am furious with Obama, but I don't want to see him destroyed. Right now the rethugs smell blood in the water. Either way - a horrible law that gives them a win on abortion, union health care, big pharma, the insurance industry, etc., or no law at all - they come out ahead.

It didn't have to be this way. If the Senate Dems had found a backbone and refused to play "who do we throw under the bus," the bill might still get tanked but there would have been no opportunity for passage of a bill that will harm so many. If the White House had stuck to the basic principle that you always insist on more and better than you want, expecting to get bargained down to what you were willing to get anyway, there might have been a real chance at a reasonable bill. As it is, the Dem leadership is unmasked as being unwilling to stand by their values, platform, and campaign promises, and as unable to strategize effectively.

Obama may only have one way out - proudly tanking the bill himself if it comes to that. He can take a moral stand against the Senate version. He can put all his effort into fighting for a better bill. He may lose, but he will lose with honor. If he continues to play to the "spirit of compromise" and flail for passage of any old thing in time for the State of the Union, he loses on all fronts.

[BolivarianHero]

1. Or he can compromise...

Republicans agree to get rid of the filibuster and their annual pay gets doubled. :P

[Davis_X_Machina]

2. They're mostly millionaires...

...so that would have approximately zero effect on their behavior.

[dflprincess]

3. I suppose it would be too much to expect the House Progressive Causcus

to grow spines and refuse to vote for selling us to the insurance companies?

Can't wait to see what kind of strong statements they put out before they fold when Rahm & the DLC turns their attention to Social Security and Medicare reform :sarcasm:

[bobbolink]

10. And right there is WHY they are scrounging for votes.

Very well said.

[DisgustedInMN]

64. Yep...

Are you aware that "Senator Amy" is a co-sponser of a bill to gut SS already?

The DINOs gotta go.

[Learning Nomad]

4. Well said. nt

[Davis_X_Machina]

5. We don't need to win. We need to lose on better bills.

When the present effort fails -- and it must fail -- we'll just come back stronger, this time with single-payer.

Of course, that will be defeated, too, but it will be a much more righteous, nay, glorious, defeat.

And in all of politics is there anything more satisfying that that? I don't think so,

I figure that in thirty years, after only two more defeats, the bill that gets defeated that time will actually create -- well, actually only call for the creation of, because that bill just got defeated, but you catch my drift -- an American National Health Service, staffed by civil servants, with bricks and mortar belonging to the state.

Losing a vote on health care reform that sweeping -- I can't imagine how any defeat could be more righteous or more glorious than that one. That's a failure I can get behind.

But losing that vote lies far in the future. We have to start small, by losing votes on less comprehensive plans now, and gradually increase the scale of the plans that get shot down.

Now some so-called 'pragmatists' will carp, and say "What about the uninsured and uninsurable today?" That's just a lack of vision. My plan, in addition to being perfect, would of course also provide for a National Day of Commemoration for all the un- and underinsured who died in the meantime, in recognition of their completely avoidable suffering. We can call them the Health-Care Heroes. Their survivors will like that.

I'm sure they realize the place their sacrifice plays in our inexorable march towards a truly optimal solution to the problem of health care, and won't be resentful. At all. No, sir.

Do you think they'd like to be on a stamp? Or is a monument -- something tasteful and not too showy -- on the Mall in Washington more appropriate?

[dionysus]

9. nicely played!

:toast:

[Davis_X_Machina]

13. I've been a Democrat and a Red Sox fan my whole life...

...noble failure is what gives my life meaning. Oh, there have been occasional aberrations in the Oughts --2004, 2007, 2006, 2008 -- but that's what they are, aberrations.

[jgraz]

44. Last I remember, the Sox actually showed up to play

They don't have a lot in common with the Democrats.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

27. Hold on just a minute. Are you being sarcastic?

:rofl:

[Davis_X_Machina]

28. Idealism died in '98. Irony died back around '03.

Sarcasm is the sole survivor.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

30. Long Live Snark!

I was at the Air Space Museum a few months back, and their was a SNARK missile as part of the exhibit. I couldn't help but wonder what was in the payload.

[Davis_X_Machina]

33. Anyone in this game....

...had better be ready to have their heart broken. Repeatedly. In the direst possible ways.

Too much Iñigo de Loyola and Don Quixote de la Mancha as a youth, perhaps

The Revolution never comes.
The good guys always lose.
All progress is inadequate.
Any victory is provisional, and reversible.

But you can't quit either.

It's the Jesuit in me.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

34. My favorite....

"Non-violence was a big flop. The only bigger flop was violence."

I heard it attributed to Joan Baez, but I don't know if it was original with her.

You and me, Sisyphus. We keep rolling that stone up the hill.

[Davis_X_Machina]

35. The persistent belief that the millenium...

...is coming is the very thing that keeps the millenium so far, far away.

[mdmc]

6. k

r

[NJmaverick]

7. If the bill is so horrible why did Bernie Sanders vote for it????

:shrug:

[557188]

25. Because he is a sell out

I lost all respect for Bernie with this crap. Socialist he ain't.

[Recursion]

57. FQHC funding

He's playing the long game; it's the one saving grace of the bill.

[elocs]

8. But if Coakley is elected, they promises, promises things will be better.

Yes, they does precioussss...

[sandnsea]

11. They want the MA subsidized insurance model

They don't want their taxes to go to pay for "government run health care". Go look around at some Mass message boards and find out why they're voting against Coakley.

In other words, the American people are still stupid and still buy into anything hate radio tells them.

And when there isn't a strong opposition correcting hate radio - then they win. So as long as the single payer or die people refuse to get off that message, there won't be enough people out there opposing the right wing lies and so the right wing will win.

That is what happens, over and over and over.

[NashVegas]

12. I Agree. He Needs to Veto This If It Lands On His Desk

And tell the American people that we need to start over from scratch.

Right now, he can still blame congress and special interests, but if he signs it, he takes the buck.

[Vincardog]

65. He and Rahm deserve the buck. They have worked very hard for the Senate abortion of a bill.

[The_Casual_Observer]

14. Good for you, you'll get what you want. Nothing & a reason to bitch

that you got nothing.

[Daemonaquila]

60. Better to get nothing...

than a complete pile of crap that hurts the people it pretends to save. The bitching comes with both options. Getting nothing just comes with fewer dead bodies as a result. Sounds like a great deal to me.

[jpak]

15. Obama won't tank the bill - our new friend Scotty B. will Kill the Bill and happy days again

which means more of what we got now for the foreseeable future - a dysfunctional health care system

Anyone that thinks we will see single payer health care in the US in the next 7 years is a fool.

Kill the Bill = insipid status quo suckage...

:thumbsdown:

[Davis_X_Machina]

18. You could just hand...

...out the following prescription to the un- and underinsured:

Rx: For pain, suffering -- Integrity, p.o., p.r.n.

It'll really help.

[jpak]

21. Yes - purity is the new wonder drug that will cure our ills

Praise the Lord!

[Daemonaquila]

58. Well since pragmatism hasn't done shit despite the desperate DLC marketing...

it's time to try something more reasonable. DLC surrender monkeys never seem to learn that if you start with something good, you have a small chance of getting it and a better chance of a fair compromise; if you start with wank, you'll never get anything but wank. So to compensate, the DLC plan is to gold-plate the wank and hope nobody notices what it really contains.

[dflprincess]

22. The Senate bill does nothing but further embed our dysfunctional health care system

It may cut the number of "uninsured" but all it will do is increase the number of underinsured. There will still be medical bankruptcies and people will still be dying because they could not afford to access care.

The only change it offers is that we will be forced to buy the shoddy products offered by the for profit companies.

Passing the bill = status quo. Only, if this scam is made law, "our" elected officials will all be busy patting themselves on the back and telling themselves how wonderful they are to have passed "reform" that they'll never revisit the issue.

If the bill is killed and the current system does not get the bailout provided by 30 million people being forced to send money to the insurance companys, it will continue to collapse and we just might get a shot at real reform.

[jpak]

29. It is way better than the status quo and I want it to pass

Parroted talking points = nonsense

just sayin'

[dflprincess]

36. Unless you're the one parroting the talking points that support the scam, righ?

If you haven't seen "Sicko", I'd advise you rent it and if you have seen it, rent it again and this time pay attention.

The Senate bill does nothing to change the situations Michael Moore describes in the film In fact, he might as well start working on the sequel.

[Davis_X_Machina]

39. How would the poster ---

--- short of agreeing with you --- convince you that (s)he's not 'one parroting the talking points that support the scam'?

Short of agreeing with you, that is.

If they can't, then you're not arguing in good faith and wasting his/her time.

[dflprincess]

42. It's a two way street

the poster accused me of "parroting talking points" first while they do the same.

[jpak]

40. Sicko was about the status quo - not the present HCR bill

and someone needs to do some homework

squawk

[dflprincess]

43. The present insurance bill reenforces the status quo

- insurance still tied mainly to employment
- large out of pockets for covered expenses (plus all those incidentals like dental & vision that are not covered)

The only part that's new is the mandated purchase of coverage. The point made in "Sicko" was that coverage is no guarantee that you'll be able to afford care. That's the same situation this bill will give us.

[jpak]

47. It's better than we have now and I want it

n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

48. What is preventing you from buying over-priced, useless insurance now?

I could refer you to my company...

[jpak]

52. No thanks - Obamacare for me

:hi:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

54. Your faith in this bill is touching

I guess you'll just have to see.

[Mari333]

16. I just have a feeling that Rahm is running the show right now

[dflprincess]

37. I think he's doing it with Obama's blessing n/t

[Individualist]

41. +1

[TorchTheWitch]

53. He works for Obama

Obama is Rahm's boss. Why the hell can't people GET this???

[Oregone]

17. Seriously, no one wants your input. Just your vote

[kwenu]

19. Wouldn't even a "perfect" health care bill be in just as much jeopardy?

The people who are voting for Brown don't want ANY health care reform of ANY kind.

[Davis_X_Machina]

20. We've been over this already.

Single payer would simply sweep all before it, in its inexorable, irrefragible rightness, provided it was proposed. I can see John Cornyn breaking down in the well of the Senate, admitting that he had been wrong, blind all along to have opposed it...but Rahm Emanuel doesn't want to make Sen Cornyn cry, so he killed it.

Try and keep up... ;-)

[kwenu]

31. Oh. Okay.

The Massachusetts election is all about Sen. Cornyn crying.:crazy:

[ProSense]

24. That's beside the point

This must be framed as people being against health care being willing to allow Brown to win.

[kwenu]

32. I'm not into framing, I just want the truth. It's easier to keep up with.

[salguine]

23. At this point, anything that torpedoes that sick mockery of health care reform, I

have a really hard time getting upset about.

As far as the Democratic Party's misfortune in Massachusetts, should that come to pass (and it looks like it will), they have no one to blame but themselves.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spanone]

38. you think another bill would have made the repukes act any differently at all?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[jgraz]

45. Caring about how the Repukes act is why we have this current shitbomb of a bill

They should have -- and could have -- been steamrolled. Instead, they were used as the bogeymen to excuse this giant sloppy tongue-kiss to the insurance industry.

[Daemonaquila]

59. You obviously don't get it.

If the Senate had a better bill, the strategy to get the House to accept it in the entirety so that it wouldn't go before the Senate with a new Repuke to tank a conference bill. As it is, the strategy is disastrous. This isn't about how the Repukes are acting - it's about the idiotic choices and blind "strategy" of the Dems.

[branders seine]

46. He should give away even more of the bill to buy one republick vote

then he'll have "bipartisan helath care reform" to brag about at the State of the Union.

[LostInAnomie]

49. How exactly would a "better bill" get passed again?

Please explain it without invoking some kind of magical bully pulpit or leadership that would somehow convince conserva-dems to vote against their own electoral interests. How do you get 60 dem votes to get past a Repubulcan filibuster?

[Davis_X_Machina]

50. Obama...

...just has to want it bad enough.

Haven't been paying attention, have you? ;-)

[LostInAnomie]

51. Oh yeah, I forgot. All Obama has to do is clap hard enough that it will bring the PO back to life.

Or was that Tinkerbell. Meh... same difference.

[quaker bill]

55. The lesson that will be learned

Try to do something progressive and you will come up too short to impress the "base" and then lose at the polls.

It would seem that they would have been better off not trying, because the only things that would have made the "base" happy were never reachable in the first place. No attempted good deed will go unpunished.

This has nothing to do with standing by values. Standing by their "values" and losing badly would only have gotten them labeled "ineffective" by the same parties that now label them "spineless". Same result - lose at the polls. No attempted good deed will go unpunished.

The lesson to be learned is to try as little as possible, anything more angers the right and angers the base.

Now if folks on the left had any sense, they would choose to reward attempts to do anything remotely progressive in hopes that they will do more. You have to start somewhere.

[JoeyT]

61. Yeah

It isn't like we didn't hear the exact same arguments after NAFTA or anything.
Even though progressives fucking loathed NAFTA.

Creating right of center legislation and blaming the left isn't exactly a new thing.

[DisgustedInMN]

66. Nope..

...the lesson is, if you don't have the balls or the integrity stand up for the PEOPLE who put you in office, then get the fuck out of the way and let a REAL Democrat have the seat.

[Faryn Balyncd]

56. K & R

[Tim01]

62. k&r nt

[flamingdem]

63. I'm not into your phyirric victory, I would have benefitted as many others from passing HRC nt