About bullying and what teachers can do

[proud2BlibKansan]

This bullying case in Massachusetts is horrific. That poor poor girl. I can barely think of her without tears in my eyes.

I want the parents reading this to take this very seriously. PLEASE talk to your children and find out what they know about bullying in their school. Then call the school, tell your child you are calling and tell your child to talk to a teacher or the principal to tell them about the bullying.

SNITCH!!

I used to have a couple kids a week slip me a note or whisper "I need to talk to you privately" and they would tell me that they were being bullied. Or a classmate was being bullied.

But that hardly ever happens anymore. I hear more and more about bullying in the news, especially in the aftermath of this poor child's suicide in Massachusetts, but I can't remember how long it has been since a student has come to me to report bullying. I've seen some and I have talked to the kids but they seem to have stopped telling their teachers.

Now I know I don't come off as the most popular girl here on DU, but I'm a good teacher and kids do like me. And they confide in me. Kids who aren't even my students have come to me over the years asking for help. I'm not trying to brag (I consider getting along with the kids pretty important so building relationships is part of the job to me, and nothing I should be praised for). Point is - the kids DO talk to ME and for many years I heard kids complaining about bullying and I don't anymore.

I think it's this snitching fad. The kids think it's bad to snitch. The other day I was walking down the hall with a group of kids and we heard this loud crash. I said "What was that" and one of the kids said "I'm not snitching!" And it turned out the custodian had dropped a trash can.

I have also always talked to kids about how they should treat each other. I don't allow name calling or put downs in my class. I jump on it when I hear it. And I tell them they shouldn't bully each other. When I first heard about this case in Massachusetts I talked to my kids about it. I read the article in the paper to them and we had a good discussion. But during that discussion, one kid said "But I don't snitch".

So parents, please talk to your kids and tell them to SNITCH.

I can't and won't speak for all teachers and I won't defend the teachers in Massachusetts. But it should be obvious that unless we know kids are being bullied, we can't do much about it. Sure we can talk to them and tell them to be nice to each other but we can't help resolve individual situations unless we know about them.

So please ask your kids about bullying and ask them about snitching. Their teachers will surely thank you.

I don't need a bunch of 'I was bullied in 3rd grade and my teacher didn't do anything about it!' responses. If that happened, I am sorry and I can guarantee it didn't happen on my watch. Ignoring bullying is wrong. I would never do that. And I won't condone it.

But teachers can't do anything if we don't know it is going on. Please tell your kids to SNITCH and tell their teachers. Let's not have any more girls like Phoebe.

[Fumesucker]

1. The problem is that there's good snitching and bad snitching..

In this day of zero tolerance for some of the dumbest things imaginable snitching for some things can have consequences far out of proportion to the behavior that has been snitched on.

We've seen kids strip searched for Advil or Tylenol and if I recall correctly that was based on another kid snitching about it..

Until some sort of balance and sanity returns to our school systems in terms of the punishment fitting the crime it's going to be hard to convince kids that snitching is always the right thing to do.

Actions have consequences and one of the consequences of zero tolerance is that kids are learning not to snitch.

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. Very true

But we do need to encourage them to report bullying. We can't do a thing about it if we don't know about it.

As for Advil and Tylenol, I am not snitching. :)

[Yehonala]

2. The Biggest Problem.......

The biggest problem comes when teachers brush it off or view it as 'toughening the kids up,' through forcing them to undergo this sort of torture. The teachers know what is going on, they just refuse to face it and take the responsibility of dealing with this filth.

Too many teachers and others want to be 'friends' or think that bullies can be reasoned with. They can't and so many of these bullies are literal psychotics. Then of course there are the idiot parents who don't believe their little snowflake is capable of being so brutal.

In the real world this level of bullying would result in lawsuits and jail time. This sort of thing isn't reailty outside of a prison. I am sick of the sadistic cruelty and these days I don't blame someone if they start shooting the place up.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. Seriously. I would never do that.

And I can't think of many teachers who would just brush it off.

Believe it or not, this is a hot topic and we have had lots of professional development on bullying. So we can't claim it's better to ignore it.

[tonysam]

8. Yeah, it's all the teachers' fault. The KIDS need to start solving their own problems.

Guess what? Bullying happens in the real world, including the workplace. Are YOU that naive to think it doesn't happen in the workplace?

IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME, and very seldom can people sue. It's ESPECIALLY prevalent in public school districts by principals against teachers. I've been psychologically RAPED by a school district, and believe me, it's WORSE than some garden variety playground bullying.

[TwilightGardener]

11. Huh? Your post makes no sense. We're talking about kids here, not your shitty

work experiences.

[EFerrari]

14. The poster's point that bullying can happen throughout life is a good one

and re-enforces the OP that children need to learn how to get help with bullying.

[TwilightGardener]

16. No, the poster sounds like an adult who's having trouble delineating

personal/professional experiences AS AN ADULT from school/social experiences as kids. Kids do not have the means to cope with jerks and assholes, as adults do--they are much more peer-dependent, they aren't as secure in self, and they can't call the police when someone assaults them in the hallway.

[EFerrari]

17. Right. Children are more dependent on adults and later on peers.

And, because bullying does not stop when we leave school, it's important to teach children how to handle it.

[TwilightGardener]

18. I've never been "bullied" as an adult. Because the nature of adulthood is, you

have the maturity and means to deal with someone who acts like an ass, and it doesn't affect your self-worth to nearly the same extent. It's ridiculous to compare adult peer relations to child peer relations in an effort to argue that teachers can avoid dealing with bullying. That is what the poster is trying to do.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. I've been bullied as an adult more than I was as a child

Asshole bosses. Dickhead neighbors. Supposed friends.

It happens. Don't fool yourself.

[TwilightGardener]

28. Well, that's your perception. I've had other people be impolite, try to cheat me,

try to boss me around when they weren't my boss, etc.--but as a fellow adult, I have recourse.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. Didn't say I didn't have recourse

You claimed adults can't be bullied. I disagree.

[TwilightGardener]

31. They can if they're incapacitated, mentally unwell or mentally challenged, etc.

These people are certainly vulnerable to mistreatment. And if you want to term mistreatment by other adults "bullying", that is your choice. But whatever you call it, you cannot compare the adult experience of what you term "bullying" to a child's experience of bullying. Same as you can't compare an adult to a child in terms of sexual consent, crime, etc.

[wolfgangmo]

50. He didn't claim that.

He claimed that he had not been bullied. Big difference.

And the tools, maturity, and brain connection necessary to resist that sort of thing are at least potentially present in all adults wherein one cannot make that assumption about kids.

"No One Can Make You Feel Inferior Without Your Consent. Do what you feel in your heart to be right- for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't." --Eleanor Roosevelt

[EFerrari]

25. Really? I worked at a job where one of my colleagues was routinely bullied

by an older, more senior staffer. Part of the nature of adulthood is also recognizing that your experience is not everyone's.

[TwilightGardener]

30. As an adult, the employee has measures to stop another adult from

mistreating them--all the way up to quitting. This is in no way comparable to children being bullied in school.

[EFerrari]

32. In your opinion, which seems exclude an understanding of the nature of bullying.

[TwilightGardener]

33. I understand child bullying, and I understand being harrassed as an adult.

Two different things, with different solutions. A kid can't go get a restraining order. A kid can't go to HR. A kid isn't going to call the police when someone slams him into a locker. A kid isn't going to sue for defamation of character. A kid can't quit school, or move, unless the parents do this. A kid is trapped, because he is a KID. There is no comparison.

[EFerrari]

35. I see. n/t

[Catshrink]

36. Oh so since you've never been bullied as an adult it doesn't happen?

And where do you think people develop maturity to deal with someone who acts like an ass -- does it just magically materialize at age 18? Some people can't buy a clue.

[TwilightGardener]

37. So...you are saying that children in school who are being bullied by other students

should just learn to "deal with it themselves", to paraphrase the poster/teacher above, because adults are sometimes treated like crap as adults (notwithstanding the fact that adults can deal with mistreatment effectively by virtue of being adults)? Are there REALLY people on DU who think children are little adults? That they don't need protection and support in school when they are being bullied? This is a sick, sad place--and very indicative of why bullying happens in school, and why some kids are ruined for life and driven to kill themselves. These are TEACHERS saying this.

[Catshrink]

39. Don't put words in my mouth.

I said develop. No one expects kids to deal with this alone. While adults help the kids in the acute situation, they can also help the kids develop strategies of their own.

But really, when we are judged on how well we teach by test scores, do you think we have time for this? Under the Obama-Duncan education regime, it will get worse.

[TwilightGardener]

42. There are no "strategies" to develop--you are placing the burden of dealing

with bullies on the backs of the children who are bullied, which is why the problem exists and worsens. The burden of prevention is on parents, teachers, administrators, principals. They set the tone, they control the environment, and they dictate behavior. The burden is not on children, who act and think like children. I repeat, this is very sad.

[Catshrink]

43. Yes, there are strategies...

what to say, what to do, to whom to report.

[TwilightGardener]

44. Laughable, don't bullshit me, that's not how you meant "strategies of their own".

[Catshrink]

46. Again, don't put words in my mouth and don't insinuate meanings that aren't there.

You want to believe teachers are bad, horrible people. What happened? Your third grade teacher piss in your Cheerios?

Strategies of their own: helping kids learn how to deal with situations that will arise in school and in life. Sorry that's so hard for you to understand.

[TwilightGardener]

48. Yes, if you read all of my old posts, you will see where I believe

that teachers are bad, horrible people in general. :crazy:

[EFerrari]

40. Are there REALLY people on DU who are too obtuse to see the continuum

or that question learning how to deal with bullies early is a good thing? Or who don't know that at any age, someone who is being bullied needs support?

You betcha.

[TwilightGardener]

41. So...you agree with Tonysam, then, that children should learn how to solve

their own problems, and leave teachers unaccountable for what happens in their domain. Gotcha. I sure hope none of you ever have any contact with my children, ever. Y'all are a scary bunch.

[Catshrink]

45. You are purposely misinterpreting what we are saying.

Yes, there is a need for intervention in bullying. But there is also a need to help the bullied child learn strategies for dealing with it -- reporting, etc., but also the psychological processing that might prevent the child from developing a bullied self-view. That is what we are trying to explain but it seems to me that you'd rather find someone to blame and leave it at that. It seems we are advocating a multidimensional approach -- deal with the immediate problem and help the bullied child learn to better defend him/herself in the future.

But I guess understanding this isn't part of your agenda.

[TwilightGardener]

47. I'm curious as to why you all are arguing with me and not Tonysam.

You either agree with that poster, or you don't. I think the burden of keeping children safe and healthy and in a learning-conducive environment is on adults, not on children. Because adults create and control environments. Children are powerless compared to adults (which is why the adult-child comparisons above are silly and very revealing). While pep talks and advice and scolding to students might be helpful, and lend some kids some temporary relief or a sense of empowerment or empathy, the burden of creating a bully-free atmosphere is 100% on adults.

[wolfgangmo]

52. I think you are describing a concept called empowerment.

Yes?

[Catshrink]

54. Yeah... that's the word.

Thanks.

[wolfgangmo]

51. Calm down. I think we are all on the side of the kids.

There is more than one road to Damascus my friend.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wolfgangmo]

49. I agree, sort of.

" Too many teachers and others want to be 'friends' " I agree with you hear. My experience in 4 schools over 10 years is that too many teachers just want to be popular like they weren't in school.

Having said that many bullies can be reasoned with, but only if you approach them on the level they are at. Taking Maslow's hierarchy of needs - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs - one can craft an approach to bullies that can shift them to a higher level of ethics and reasoning. However, telling a kid to be better, to appeal to their non-existant better natures is a waste of time. If a bully won't listen to words then the words must contain some connection to a need that the bully has be it safety, love, belonging, etc.

By appealing to what they need, it is possible to nudge a bully along. However they also need to know that they have already blown 2 of their 3 chances with you and that the next one will see you making it your lifes work to make their life shitty.

[donco6]

56. Having grown up gay in a little town, I can tell you I'd NEVER do that.

Maybe I'm unusual, but I don't think so.

[Echo In Light]

4. k/r

[Gman2]

6. I was bullied all growing up. I have been in hundreds of fights.

Won every one. Tried to get outta them all. I had classses, I was advanced a grade, that I had two guys that would punch me. So, I told the fucking useless teacher, that I would leave fifeteen minutes early, to escape harm. I told vice principals, that I would continue to beat ass, till he did something. I NEVER got ANY help. My education was ruined, to say the least. I was left with a hardass DU attitude. I dont take squat from those that try to intimidate. Sure would have appreciated an adult with any balls at all. In fourth grade, my mother and I confronted the principal, about a 2 year older student, that had spit on me from the bus, and threw bricks at me. He actually said, sticks and stones etc.

Now, with zero tolerance, the bullied, is the bully as well. FUCK weak adults. FUCK THEM TO HELL.

[tonysam]

7. Then there are others who are habitual tattlers

There comes a time when kids need to resolve problems on their own; I am not referring to the rare extreme case.

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. We need to teach them the difference

But we can't do that if we aren't aware of the problem.

[davsand]

10. When my 6th grade daughter was being bullied I went to the school.

I went to the Principal when my daughter was being bullied in 6th grade. He chose to do nothing because (as he put it) the kids were only calling her a "geek" or a "nerd" and that didn't sound too bad to him.

To be fair, he had no control over the social stuff the parents let those kids do--like the parties where everyone was invited except her. He really can't be held responsible for all the "mean girl" crap that goes on, and I do get that. What he could have done, however, was protect her when she was in his care.

He could have had a chat with the teacher that told her IN CLASS to "speak English" because nobody understood the "big words" she used to answer questions. My kid tests out above grade level in vocab, and truth be told, I suspect she probably tests higher than that particular teacher. The Principal chose not to act.

He could have helped when my kid would be sitting at a lunchroom table and the "popular" girls would demand she move because they wanted to sit there with out "it" sitting there too. He chose not to act.

He might have helped her in her PE class when the girls would mess with her in the locker room or the kids would get physical with her in class, however he chose not to get involved in that either--until the day she clocked a kid who tried to slam her into the wall because he wanted the basketball she was holding. He got involved enough to call me that day, however I'm sure my response was less than satisfactory. (I asked if she'd broken the little bastard's nose.)

He also did get involved long enough to recommend she be put in remedial math at the Jr High rather than pre-algebra in spite of the fact that she tested out at the 95th percentile on the tests. I never did get any real explanation about that one, however I am proud to say that she has made honors or even high honors every quarter this year--while being in pre-algebra at our insistence.

I respect the fact that not every teacher is apathetic, and I realize that teaching is no bed of roses. I also realize full well on a very visceral level that some schools could give a shit about what happens to kids as long as it doesn't leave them liable for civil damages. Snitching is all well and good if anybody wants to hear it, but it also leaves kids open for even more trauma if they snitch and it gets held against them by the adults they trusted to help them.

YMMV.


Laura

[wolfgangmo]

53. 20 years in the bureaucratic treaches.

I speak from experience when I say that it is INCREDIBLY important to make sure that someone else is informed and involved EVERY TIME you deal with anyone in a place of power. Do this by complaining in writing and making sure that the superintendent, school board members, state department of education, local newspaper, state rep and senator, federal rep and senator, and Mr. Rogers. In schools just make sure that more than the teacher / principal are informed and involved.

It's a little concept I like to call transparency. If they know you are not alone they will be more thorough and responsible.

[TwilightGardener]

12. In my experience with my son, some teachers

happen to dislike the kids that are getting bullied, for the same reasons these children are shunned by their peers. Teachers tend to like good-looking, popular, personable students, and dislike the oddballs, the "tattlers" (see post above), the social misfits, the ones with bad grades, and the non-athletic. The other kids pick up on this as tacit permission to treat the kid like crap.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. That's not my experience at all

And if you suspect that is the case, you need to go to the principal. If that doesn't work, then go to the superintendent.

[TwilightGardener]

15. It's been both my experience, personally, as a student, and also my son's experience.

I have an older son who is a fairly popular honor student, and socially adept. He has never been bullied, and his teachers have always enjoyed having him in class and think he's just the bee's knees. My younger son, who has some attention problems, needed remedial/speech help, and is small and socially awkward, with the same exact teachers a couple years later--completely different treatment from a few of them (most are good and professional). I can certainly sense their dislike, or disinterest, when I deal with them at conferences, and my son has mentioned things that they've said to him in class that almost made me call the school in protest--though I don't like being a troublemaker and often just tell my son to behave and make good grades and learn how to deal with teachers who don't like you, because not everyone will like you in life and you have to get used to that. I don't expect him to be treated with love, but I do expect a professional to act professionally and not display personal attitudes toward children in class. Other kids DO sense this, and it doesn't help in the hallways and locker rooms--the bullies know what they can get away with when targeting certain kids.

[LWolf]

61. I see the opposite happening, fortunately.

For example, I have a young man in one of my classes; an 8th grader. He has developmental issues, learning and behavioral disabilities due to brain damage suffered as an infant. He's large, ungainly, has no social skills, and is a perfect target. When he began 6th grade, he'd never been in a public school classroom before, and he only came for one class a day. By 7th grade he was here most of the day, and in 8th grade he is here all day.

As a 6th grader, his peers wanted nothing to do with him. His social backwardness, along with hygiene and grooming issues, had them keeping a big distance. By the end of 6th grade, though, they were reaching out to him, and he was responding. At the beginning of 7th grade, one of his peers, a boy who is a natural leader but often leading people the wrong direction, took him under his wing. He mentored that boy all year, and, in the process, improved his own conduct and grades. Without adults ever doing anything at all. In 8th grade, this young man has been tutored in grooming and hygiene, taught how to throw and catch and kick a ball, included in social groups at lunch and recess, and is often requested as a partner when we do group work in class. The kids themselves did this without prompting. I DID, of course, let that 7th grade mentor know how much I admired and appreciated his efforts, but he did it all himself.

We set this boy up for success because our school climate is inclusive. Nobody is rejected. We teach it and model it in our classrooms, in the halls, and on the playground. Not just a few of the adults, but all of us. And the students "get" it. That doesn't mean that bullying doesn't happen; it does. Just not frequently, and certainly not with adult "permission." When it happens, it's addressed.

[bpj62]

19. Bullying

I have 3 elementary school age children and I have told all the exact same thing. Don't bully anyone and don't let anyone bully you. I have made it clear to my kids that if they are ever attacked it is okay to do whaterver it takes to defend themselves. If they get suspended for defending themselves I will appeal it. If I found out that a parent was allowing their child to bully other children I would confront them. Of course it helps that I am 6'5 and 245.

[Writer]

22. Once a couple of girls "snitched" on me, claiming that I had called one of them a name.

The truth is, I was the one being bullied. Meanly bullied by these girls. But they thought they'd have a little more fun at my expense, I guess.

The teacher pulled me outside the class and reprimanded me. No matter how much I told the teacher I didn't call the girl a name, she didn't believe me. I returned to my desk crying. The girls behind me laughed when they saw how upset I got.

I can't remember if the teacher ever got the hint. She was a rather bright, perceptive and experienced teacher, but I can't remember if she caught on that it was a lie.

But I spoke up the next year - and that teacher did intervene and was very angry at the girls in the class. This was the mid-1980's before social Darwinism had truly seeped into our culture.

[tigereye]

23. I always talk to my kid about this and I also do in my work

kudos for you for teaching values- the kids who bully need help almost as much, if not more, than the kids who are bullied. It's a terrible thing and I thought that more schools (at least in grade school or middle school) were addressing it as part of the curriculum, etc.


It's unfortunate that kids don't think it's ok to stand up for treating people right or the harrassment of others. I wonder if the "snitching" thing is related to people who are afraid to confront violence in their neighborhoods for fear of retribution...



I've given some folks I know the book Queen Bees and Wanna-bes- seems to help some and put things in perspective.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. Yes the no snitching thing started on the street

And it can be dangerous to snitch in some neighborhoods.

Have never heard of that book. I'll check it out. Thanks!

[Mariana]

24. Teachers need to tell the parents what's going on

and do it sooner rather than later. My kid started hitting and pushing other kids in first grade and it went on for MONTHS before the teacher called me about it. I had no idea it was going on. When I asked the teacher why she hadn't told me sooner, she told me she didn't want to "tattle".

Give me a break. I've never heard anything so stupid.

I reminded her that I was the parent and it was my responsibility to raise my kid to be a decent human being, and that she was actively hindering me from doing so by keeping important information from me.

I know lots of parents will refuse to do anything or to believe that their little angels are less than perfect, but the rest of us need to be told what's going on so we can help solve the problem - whether our kids are the bullies or the victims.

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. Actually we are encouraged to communicate with parents but also to solve our problems ourselves

More than once after calling a parent a principal has said to me "Don't give your power away like that"

I always call parents when I see bullying continue. The first time I talk to the kid and try to stop it and if it continues, I involve the parent. But since we are encouraged to take care of misbehavior without automatically involving the parent, not all teachers are good about keeping parents aware of problems.

Another sad reality.

[Mariana]

34. I wouldn't have minded

if she'd tried to handle it herself for a short time - two or three weeks maybe (it was happening almost daily). It's so much harder to correct bad behavior when it's gone on long enough to become a habit. I'd have been fine with your way of handling it.

At any rate, we did solve the problem and my kid is now a decent human being in high school. The only time I hear from her teachers is when they tell me how much they enjoy having her in their classes.

[wolfgangmo]

55. Not to be too obvious ...

But your principal was an idiot.

No one can take your "power" without your permission. Let me tell you a little story.

A father gave his boy a dollar one day. The boy was excited and ran out and spent the dollar. The next day the father told his boy that the next day the boy had to give him a dollar back. I gave it to you and now you have to give it back. The boy was very sad but went up to his room and found 4 quarters that he had been saving. The father told the boy that he would give him help him out but that he would have to trust the father and wait 2 days until he passed judgement. And so the father told his son an "original" idea. The boy was sceptical but remembered what his father told him. The next day the father told his son that the boy owed him an "original" idea. The boy went up to his room and thought and thought and later that day he ran excited down the stairs to tell his father his "original" idea.

The father then explained that if you give and take one dollar then you only have one dollar. Then the father asked the boy how many ideas he had. The boy thought for a moment and then said "TWO!" IF you share ideas you have your idea and the other idea and it doesn't cost a thing.


So your principal is an idiot. You didn't give away your "power" by sharing it. You doubled it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. Oh I know that

But you know what? - she's the boss :)

[AngryOldDem]

38. Good advice.

But then it's up to the school to do something about it. I'm glad that you do take these reports seriously. I could have used someone like you advocating for my kids when they were in elementary school.

[Robyn66]

58. With respect

You are a good teacher. Many kids don't have that benefit. I suggest you take a look at what my daughter went through in elementary school :)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8074311

[etherealtruth]

59. In response to a post about a member's child's bullying experience

... Dinger (a teacher) posted a very compassionate, insightful response. It is from the perspective of a teacher, a parent and a "former target of bullies" .... it is well worth the read.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8074311&mesg_id=8078043

[LWolf]

60. This is such an important topic.

We spend a great deal of time with our students talking about respect, and we make sure they treat each other well in our presence. We can't do anything, though, about problems we don't know about. Kids are masters at keeping their social issues "underground." I'm more likely to hear about a problem from a parent than from a kid; when I do, it's addressed immediately.

Fortunately, earlier this year, I had some students who DID come forward to report a situation being played out on myspace from home. It wasn't happening at school. One girl broke up with her boyfriend, started "going out" with his best friend, and trashed the first boyfriend horrifically on her myspace page. He started talking about suicide on his. THAT was when the kids came forward. Fortunately, before he'd gotten any further than cutting himself.

Bullying rarely happens within sight or hearing of adults. In this case, we can't punish someone for cyber-bullying off campus. We CAN, and did, speak to her parents, who applied consequences at home, speak to his parents, and have several classroom meetings and small group meetings with the counselor. We ARE keeping a close eye on those involved, and communicating regularly with the young man's parents.

I haven't read through all of the responses to this thread. I hope you are getting some support.