Republicans destroyed this economy - Obama saved it temporarily.

[kentuck]

The message is as simple as that. George W Bush and his Treasury Secretary, Hank Paulson, came before the American people in September of 2008 and grudgingly admitted failure. They needed $700 billion dollars immediately or the entire capitalist system could collapse. Jaws dropped.

Their supply-side, tax-cutting, military-spending, non-regulation economy had failed miserably. We were on the verge of collapse. Republicans, with the help of a few "Blue Dog" Democrats, had destroyed this economy. They had no solutions about how to fix it.

Whether we agree or disagree with the way Obama and Geithner and the Democrats handled the crisis, they saved our country from immediate collapse into a depression. Make no mistake, we were headed to another Hoover-like Depression.

Now that their heads are above water, the Republicans are preaching the same message that got us into such deep water. Taxcuts for the wealthy. Basically, that is all they have.

The Republicans got us into this terrible economy. It was not Barack Obama or his "socialist" policies. We can only hope the Democrats are able to communicate this truth to the American people.

(edited to add "temporarily" in the title)

[Better Today]

1. "...saved it." ???? Like past tense, like it's already saved? What planet do you live on?

[kentuck]

5. I agree that it can slide back down ...

if the President and the Democrats do not make the changes and the regulations necessary to prevent the collapse from happening again.

But I do believe we have come back from the edge. I agree it is a temporary stay. I think I live on Planet Earth?

[NotThisTime]

10. Did we bottom to the Great Depression? No we didn't, we might get better slowly but we sure as hell

didn't hit the bottom of the great depression, so yeh, he saved it... It'll take another 4 years to get out of this mess George Bush and his cronies made. It will be close to the lost decade by the end of it all. Obama did not himself create this mess. I don't disagree that many in Congress are complicit in this act, however....

[Aramchek]

24. yes, saved it. as in, we are not in the midst of a Great Depression right now.

[Better Today]

29. Well bankers aren't anyway, huh? The rest of us, the 16-18% unemployed

the small, really small businessmen that have run out of personal funds to float their businesses till the economy recovered (which it hasn't), the folks whose jobs have been cut back one way or another who are going to have to lose their homes because their income is no longer enough (regardless of whether they are underwater).

Sorry, but for many 100s of 1000s it is still a Great Depression. But hey, we are all so happy that bankers and executives are getting huge pay increases and hoarding company cash rather than hire anyone.

[Aramchek]

51. you don't put much weight in factuality, do you?

[Better Today]

52. Huh, like all the corrective fact listings you've used to rebut me?

[jody]

2. I wish it were that simple to place blame but IMO the majority of Senators and Congresspersons that

passed bills that contributed to our economic failure are to blame and that includes Democrats and Republicans.

[Cleita]

6. +1

[kentuck]

8. If you wish to give equal blame to the Democrats...

as you do to George W Bush and the Republican ideologues, then we have lost already.

[jody]

14. You distort my post by saying "equal blame to the Democrats". I clearly said every vote cast for a

bill that contributed to our failed economy was equally guilty. That limits blame to Republicans who voted for bad bills and Democrats who voted for bad bills.

Anyone who wishes to absolve those Dem voters while blaming Rep voters is disingenuous.

[kentuck]

16. And I think my post placed blame on some Democrats also?

Especially those that voted for the wars and the taxcuts and everything Bush proposed. Those Democrats certainly cannot escape responsibility.

[jody]

19. Then your subject should have said "Republicans & Democrats destroyed this economy". It also

remains to be proven whether Obama has saved anything because economic history clearly shows peaks and valleys as natural.

Those who believe in omnipotent, omniscient government for control of production and central planning need only learn from Russia and China's failure with those ideas.

[kentuck]

21. Because that would imply they are equally responsible...

and I do not accept that.

[jody]

25. My point is valid every SINGLE VOTE is equally responsible. n/t

[kentuck]

32. If Bush had not lied us into the war in Iraq...

many votes would not have been taken. Yes, they voted for it. But they, like the American people, were lied to. They cannot escape responsibility for their votes but the responsibility is not equally shared, in my opinion. Bill Clinton signed the bill to do away with the long-established banking regulations, so he cannot escape responsibility, even though most of his Party voted in the opposite manner. Republicans loved the bill.

[jody]

39. You and I can exchange special cases all day long and when the dust settles leaders from both

parties will be guilty because they represent We the Corporation and not We the People.

As long as corporatist can keep people like you and I divided and polarized they will move inexorably toward a complete corporate state with growing totalitarianism that is the ultimate product.

When only 16% of the people approve of congress and 80% disapprove that obviously means voters hold Dems and Reps responsible and I'm in that group.

[kentuck]

41. But..but...but...

We can't vote out people like Blanche Lincoln and other corporate stooges, otherwise we would be a permanent minority. How often do we hear that bullshit?

[jody]

48. Don't see that happening as long as we have two parties controlled by leaders at the national level

all feeding at the money trough of corporatists.

We need another Sam Adams to take on the corporatists and their divine right of corporations as he did with George III and the divine right of kings.

[kentuck]

49. Or another Teddy Roosevelt?

Who was not afraid of the politics of taking on the big banks and industrialists.

[jody]

50. Teddy said "'Behind the ostensible Government sits enthroned an invisible Government,

owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible Government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics, is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.... This country belongs to the people. Its resources, its business, its laws, its institutions, should be utilized, maintained, or altered in whatever manner will best promote the general interest.' This assertion is explicit. We say directly that 'the people' are absolutely to control in any way they see fit, the 'business' of the country."

[Go2Peace]

44. The Dot.com bust and the loss of our leadership and innovation was not Bush's fault!

Bush should be in jail, but the underpinnings of where we are was set before he entered office. Just look at the computer industry, which was almost completely homegrown and we **OWNED**, that should have sustained our economy and build a new era with a highly skilled and educated workforce. We completely screwed up that bounty and it was the policies and lack of proper oversight at the top that led us from there to where we are. And that includes administrations that were dominated by Democrats.

The Republicans have driven more than we, but we have "tag teamed" and continued, and at times even made important decisions about which way to turn.

[kentuck]

47. The stock market was playing games with people's lives even then.

I lost a bundle, at least to me, in the dot.com bust. The NAFTA bill hurt our country more than we will ever know, imo.

[Go2Peace]

30. They are *almost* equally responsible.

It is the neo-liberal ideology that is killing us. Which social programs we have and how much they entail ultimately has less to do with the fall of our nation than the neo-liberal "globalist" free market values that **both** parties still believe in.

True, the Republicans have drowned many voices, and we have more voices of sanity within our party, but the most powerful people in our party have FULLY participated in what is bringing the US down, and many of them ENRICHED themselves in the process.

It might feel good to put on those rose colored glasses, because then one can move along thinking "all will be ok" as long as our party is the majority. But then we are guilty of doing the same thing the Republicans do. Making hay of the other party when they are in power and ignoring our own parties part they play.

[kentuck]

35. You've convinced me.

I'm fucking joining the Tea Party.

[Go2Peace]

42. Well I am not

But I expect my leadership to be less compromising and value wisdom. Why in the world we should be happy with a "better than them" ideology is beyond me. We have history that shows we can do far better. We are not "progressing" at this time in history, we are only slowing down the falling. That just doesn't cut it for America.

[kentuck]

43. Democrats were "de-nutted" by Reagan...

and they all became corporate supporters. Either we change the Party or it will destroy us. If the Democratic Party is "pro-corporation", then who is for the people?? These are some hard realities to face.

[Go2Peace]

45. I totally agree.

[Go2Peace]

22. It is interesting how some here view everything as if it is a football game

We win some elections and make some temporary relief, but the rules are still the same. Who made them? ***BOTH*** parties. Sure, Republicans are the worst, but our own parties values are screwed up too and not sustainable. That means this is not a "party war", it is a fight to make **ourselves* and "our side" better.

[jody]

28. Gallup reports 16% approval for congress, 80% disapproval yet most incumbents will be reelected. n/t

[rcrush]

3. .

[leftstreet]

4. ...

:spray:

[Cleita]

7. He put it on life support. It's not saved yet, but I

hope we get there.

[leftstreet]

9. Well, he put Banksters and the MIC on life support, but not We the People

Apparently we're further down the list...somewhere after the BigMed bailout, coal bailout, who's next?

[Greyhound]

11. You have a very strange definition of the word 'saved'.

Returning things to the way it was just prior to the collapse by pouring untold trillions into the maw of the same pig, with no safeguards implemented, and expecting that the same thing will not happen again appears to be rather foolish, to be kind.

[kentuck]

15. "Saved"..

meaning keeping it from death. We still have a chance to create a healthy economy. I agree with most of the sentiments here but, we cannot let the Republicans blame everything on Barack Obama and let them escape all responsibility. That will surely put them back in charge.

[Greyhound]

34. I know, and it is frustrating in the extreme.

I never imagined that I could feel more disappointed in a Democratic President than I did with Clinton (I'd love to meet both Clinton & Shrub so I could spit on them both simultaneously), but Obama has me thinking that we might be better off just getting it over with.

We're following a path that leads to either indentured servitude or social collapse.
:grr:

[NNN0LHI]

12. Unfortunately tax cuts isn't all they have

If these assholes get back in power they will involve us in more war(s) so fucking fast our heads will be spinning.

Republicans don't have short memories like the average voter does. They remember how easy it was to get Bush's 90+ percent approval numbers. Just scare people and declare war and they fall right into line. Do you think a lot of those 90+ percent are now declaring themselves lifelong liberal Dems these days? I bet there's a boatload of them.

Remember back when we were one of the ten-percenters who didn't fall for the bullshit kentuck? Well, there aren't a lot of people like us.

Don

[Gman]

13. Good post

THat's pretty much how I describe it.

[Go2Peace]

17. works not near done. There have been ***no*** real reforms, only temporary measures

Our economy make come back but in 4 years what happens when the next bubble bursts? Nothing has been done yet to change the way our economy works. Nothing at all.

[kentuck]

18. I would agree with that.

It's like the drowning person has been dragged to shore but no one is willing to give him artificial respiration.

[Raineyb]

31. Then the word "saved" would be inappropriate would it not?

Merely getting a drowning person out of the water isn't going to save them of you don't get the water out of his lungs.

Just saying.

[kentuck]

36. Perhaps there is a better word?

Maybe I can edit it?

[Go2Peace]

38. I understand what Kentuck is saying

as long as we keep our long term perspective than hopefully we can do what we need to. Seems like we are on the same page, just different ways to express it.

I agree though, that if the Republicans would have won power we would be in a depression right now. We can thank Obama and the Dems for that. We just need to make sure they understand that we have to make the longer term reforms and soon. It is not acceptable to go through this again nor to become a second world nation.

[whatsthebuzz]

20. Why do

the GWB boot-lickers say that he did so much to save our economy and saved us from a recession, yet say that Clinton put us into one? I sadly hear shit like this every day.

[laughingliberal]

23. Oh yes, I feel saved

as I scrape the change out of the bottom of my purse to see if we can buy enough gas to get to our customer's house so we can earn some grocery money for next week.

I'm not convinced we aren't still headed into a Hoover like depression.

[kentuck]

26. We are headed into that depression unless...

we do something to avert it. However, in my opinion, we would already have been there if left to the devices of the Republican Party. We got a temporary stay. I'm not happy with the direction we are going but i certainly do not believe the Republicans are the ones to save us from the impending disaster. I don't know that anyone can?

[laughingliberal]

33. No, I don't think the Republicans will save us, either

I don't believe anyone can unless they find the courage to stand up to the banksters, Wall Street, and the oil companies. Here we sit with the barest signs of fragile recovery and oil hits $85 per barrel running gas prices here to almost $3 per gallon. And nobody stands up and threatens them with a windfall profit tax as they steal all the small gains we've made and then some? Hard to have hope when you see this.

[Go2Peace]

46. I see your point

You are right. Now is not the time to "drop out". It is the time to continue to fight.

[HughMoran]

59. Many Republicans won't believe in global warming until millions are displaced by rising oceans

:shrug:

[branders seine]

27. well, that is a half truth,

which is more than we usually get these days.

[Mithreal]

37. Obama is a Free Market guy.

[MadHound]

40. Oh, 'Pugs didn't wreck it all on their own

This has been an ongoing process covering decades. Clinton gave us NAFTA, welfare "reform" or deregulated the financial sector(including gutting Glas-Steagal), which started off this entire mess in the first place.

Meanwhile, with a total unemployment rate over twenty percent, and a looming crash in commercial real estate, I wouldn't say that this economy is saved by any stretch of the imagination.

One month's barely positive economic numbers simply doesn't equate saved, not by a long shot.

[gulliver]

53. True, and it should be repeated over and over.

There should be no letting up on this. Politics is war sometimes, and the GOP has decided that is what they want. So every time a Dem gets to a mike, we should hear some version of what you have posted. The country needs to hear it repeatedly. Call it a Big Truth. The results are in and we can judge the tree called the GOP by its fruits. It's a shit tree.

[kentuck]

54. Do you mean...?

...plant a seed of doubt in the minds of the "Tea-baggers", who have been led to believe that the huge deficits and the economic downturn are Obama's fault solely?? Maybe they can't handle the truth?

[gulliver]

55. I think the Big Lie concept applies to Big Truth too.

Mere repetition of the Big Truths we represent will refresh the memories of all who hear. It's not just Big Lies that work that way. Repetition is fundamental to learning. The GOP has that much right in their constant "harping" approach (on socialism, etc.). It accords well with the way the human brain learns things. Keep repeating that Obama is a socialist, and it will become "knowledge." Stupid can be learned.

Obama has planted the seed that the GOP caused our crisis and we fixed it. That seed needs to be watered repeatedly until its roots take a firm hold. Even the poor sad pinheads in the Tea Party will start to accept it then. But it has to be repeated over and over.

[Go2Peace]

57. There is more to it than that. Read books like Lakoff's. Repetition alone doesn't work

That is why the tea baggers still persist despite the obvious. Not because they have had repetitive talking points (which they have), but they have had stories reinforced in their minds until they are somewhat "locked".

Interestingly, the primary mechanism to reach most people is emotion, not "reason". And you have to follow neuron pathways that are already established. Thus, using metaphors and "stories" that reinforce.

Republicans are masters at this. We are still little children playing around the edges.

I think the talking point "party of no" is a better example. That follows an "authoritarian" story most of us have in our minds (through culture and family).

Digging deeper... We can't use "authoritarian" stories as a primary vehicle, because while this may make headway, it also reinforces the authoritarian "father model that we have been fighting for 30 years. We have to use the "nurturing" model which most of the population also identifies with (nurturing mother model) and start to move our society toward that model.

You can probably combine the two into a single point. This is probably not the best example, but something like "The Republican "party of no", is the party of selfishness" (poor example, but hopefully it is descriptive). The opposite of selfishness is caring for others, which appeals to the nurturing mother "story" in our minds. If you repeat that enough people will start to reject the authoritarian ideas.

Anyway, this may sound odd but if you learn linguistics and the sociology of the mind it will become much more clear.

The Republicans actually understand the mind better than us. Companies do too, they practice it all the time with mass marketing.

[kentuck]

58. But....

Doesn't it have to correlate somehow with the truth and reality?

Why is the "Big Lie" believed?

In my opinion, it is because there is not an equal response to it. Just because something is absurd or unbelievable does not mean some folks will not believe it. But once they have heard a more real version, the truth, their pea-sized brains have something to compare it to.

That is why we need to "frame" the issues in the most basic truths possible.

[Union Yes]

56. Yup, Supply side GOP/Reaganomics has bankrupted America.

Plenty of Dem enablers along the way but this is pure Reagan policy still gutting America.

Great post Kentuck.

The truth needs to be told and retold.



:kick: & rec