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Was McVeigh trying to make an anti-war statement?

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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 08:43 AM
Original message
Was McVeigh trying to make an anti-war statement?
The question has been running through my mind since watching the show.

How is bombing a building in Oklahoma City different from bombing a building in Baghdad? It isn't really in the larger sense other than geographic location and the nationality of the people in it. I wonder if that was in the back of McVeigh's mind or at least part of what he was trying to demonstrate.

He was such a contradiction, at once hating the government but embracing the military, resenting authority and yet thriving under strict discipline. He was a very smart guy, and seemed to be very clear in his motivations but also narcissistic and sociopathic enough to carefully orchestrate how he was ultimately perceived even in the face of such a horrific act. He lit the fuse and simply walked away, cold and remorseless, no different than the B52 crewman who commits the same act by pushing a button at 35,000 feet.

Thoughts?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
1. I don't get how it could possiby be seen as anti war.
and sorry, I do see it as different from the B52 crewman.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. Gee cali, how is it different?
Edited on Tue Apr-20-10 12:56 PM by arcadian
Horrible atrocity with people being blown up occur in both scenarios.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. gee, acadian, why am I surprised that you can't discern the difference?
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Ohh geee, I'm sorry.
One of them is wrapped in nationalism and patriotic fervor and the other one is against that. Carry on, cali.
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
2. No. His #1 concern was 'government taking guns away.'
He wanted to start wars at home, not end them abroad.

He was an egotistical proto-gunbagger. That's all.

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CBGLuthier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
3. No, he was making an I am a whiny, evil, shitfuck bastard statement
Edited on Tue Apr-20-10 08:53 AM by CBGLuthier
He succeeded.

Quit trying to understand evil. No excuses. No reasons. Just pure fucking evil to do what that miserable piece of shit did.

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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
4. No, he was committing suicide by cop and wanted to be remembered
He was a sociopathic fuckwit and the founding father of the tea party movement.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
5. He seemed to think the 'government' waged war in Waco and he raged about that
Somehow, the fight against adults participating in unlawful conduct (and using children as shields) in Waco justified (to McVeigh's mind) the attack on innocent people, including children, in OKC.
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Walk away Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
6. What has McVeigh ever said or written that would indicate that his act...
was an anti-war statement? You might just as well ask if he meant it to be a condemnation of ugly government architecture.

Although, I do agree with you that "Our Troops" are not the blameless heroes so many people make them out to be. It's possible you see a connection but I doubt he did.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
7. Post act justification
Be careful about reading too much into after the fact statements. What drives such people is complex, and probably beyond their own abilities to comprehend, much less determine. The basic roots of acts are most likely more driven by a touch of mental illness, creating a sense of isolation, and a lack of belonging. It was almost assuredly more an expression of angry despair than any ideologically driven act. The ideology is merely a rationalization.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
8. No. He was trying to murder a few hundred people.
To say anything else is ridiculous.
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
9. No. He saw it as an act of war, not an anti-war statement.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
10. He was following The Turner Diaries by bombing the FBI building
He sold and promoted the book at gun shows.

Read up on the book, geez
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Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
11. He was making the same statement Bin Laden was making..
Do it my way or die.. No anti war sentiment there at all..
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. delete
Edited on Tue Apr-20-10 12:35 PM by onenote
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
12. Seems incredibly unlikely
Edited on Tue Apr-20-10 09:37 AM by LeftishBrit
Firstly, although the Bosnia war took place at about that time, there was no long-running war involving America then as there is now. Moreover, McVeigh made explicit statements about why he committed this bombing, and nowhere did he say it was anti-war. If he wanted to make an anti-war statement, I think he'd have said so.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
13. No. PTSD combined with a persecution complex plus feelings of grandeur
is what he was about.

He wanted to be a "savior", nothing more. A "savior" of what, I don't know.

Plenty of psychopaths fit the same profile.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
14. how on earth did you come to that conclusion?
:crazy:
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Not a conclusion -- just a question that crossed my mind

Did you even watch the show?

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stanwyck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. I watched the show. I'm unclear how this crossed your mind.
The only conclusion I came to was this he was a sociopath. Our attempting to read meaning into what he did is overshadowed by his being a person who had absolutely no regard for other human beings, including children. I believe you're giving McVeigh more depth than he possessed.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
15. Watching the Maddow special last night I saw a lot of rationalizing,
but it seemed to me he was creating justifications.

I still think there was another, more significant player - John Doe #2 - who groomed him and aimed him at the Federal Building. That person was the one who - claiming ideology like that of the Montana Freemen - did not put plates on the getaway car, knowing that McVeigh would be picked up. McVeigh obviously hoped and expected to get away, but he was set up to be a martyr. It played to his vanity to become a martyr. Only later did he claim that not putting plates on the car was intentional, creating a 'suicide by cop'. Why would he fret about the getaway car not starting if he was trying to get caught? If he was trying to be a martyr, why did he not boast of his role and refuse to cooperate with the authorities? A true narcissist would have been more than eager to show the world how rational and clever he was.

His was the operational cell - him and Nichols and whatshisname, neither of whom knew or met his contact. He was intelligent enough to carry out the attack, but his social skills were so meager he couldn't control the people in his cell and the plot nearly fell apart.

He was covering for someone. He took all the blame to hide the larger conspiracy. He was anxious to be executed because he knew that was the way he could keep the secret of JD#2.

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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
16. No.
You're welcome.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
17. He was against Poppy's Gulf War I.
For what reasons I can't recall. Don't have a link handy but I'm sure there are others here who are up on this

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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
18. Millions of soldiers have come home from war, never to kill again
Most of them come home to live lives that seem unextraordinary. Some garner fame or power or glory but the majority of them get jobs, build families and become members of their communities. If they do it well, they come to realize that every human life is a hero's journey.

But I will give you credit for unintentionally citing McVeigh's true motive and that was infamy. He felt he was special and deserved the attention of the world. However he was lazy and unimaginative. Instead of doing the work and investing the time in authentically important endeavors he chose the cheater's way out and stole the lives of 168 innocent people.

He was just another punk without a soul.
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
19. Kinda sounds like Limbaugh-logic to me.
Probably something he will float in a day or two - "McVeigh was an anti-war leftist."

Don't tie yourself in knots over this. The guy was a right wing terrorist.
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bergie321 Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. He was a
"Left wing plant"...duh
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
23. nope. not even a eensy weensy little bit.
Frankly, I can't even begin to follow the "logic" that led you to raise such a question.
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
25. I really doubt it.
If anything, he was trying to incite war.
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MicaelS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
29. Hell no! He wanted to START a civil war / race war
He was big fan of The Turner Diaries. You can read a synopsis at Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Turner_Diaries

OR, you can read the entire thing as a PDF. It easily available online. I've read it, and it's a piece of racist trash. Hitler would have loved it.
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