Euro descendant borders and lines through indigenous lands are what should be outlawed.

[Union Yes]

Who was here first? Not white people.

I'm a white person who is fed up with America's treatment of ALL indigenous people.

When will it fucking end?

When?

[Teaser]

1. Nothing ends, Adrian.

Nothing ever ends.

[zipplewrath]

2. Where does it start?

I understand the sentiment, but quite honestly, who do you think the "indigenous" people are? When do you become indigenous and stop being the invaders? Careful, because the druids are a bit concerned about your answer.

[foxfeet]

5. I luvs me some druids, but even the Celts

displaced/absorbed earlier people of Old Europe.

[ORDagnabbit]

3. you should start with being angry at the Romans for killing and taking over the indigenous people

of Europe which preceded the take over of the Americas?

[Teaser]

4. People called Romanes they go the house

http://www.richardpettinger.com/quotes/romanes_eut_domus

[dmallind]

6. ...who were themselevs rarely indigenous for very long

It seems like people with sentiments like this define "indigenous" as "what it was like in about 1400" for no reason I can gather.

Ancient Egyptians were not indigenous. Romans were not indigenous. The British Empire were not indigenous. The Spanish, Portuguese, French empires neither.

Not to mention the many vicious indigenous American disputes and shifting territories that took place for hundreds (and probably thousands) of years in between the migration from Asia and the coming of the Europeans. Should teh Lipan or the Comanche decide the borders or even the indigenous ownership of the Southern Great Plains for example?

[JCMach1]

7. When the Space Aliens arrive to drive us from our land...

At least that's what Stephen Hawking is thinking these days...

[Cleita]

8. Although Europe has a history of being overrun by various tribes over and over

through the millenniums, it seems the Americas were settled by people from northeast Asia. They didn't overrun other tribes but entered as the first settlers much as the Aborigines did in Australia. So I believe they have a stronger claim to these lands than any of the rest of us do.

[dmallind]

10. Which tribes though?

The idea that all the NA tribes just lived in peace and harmony and never stole land from each other by force much as the Europeans did is not historically accurate. How far back do we go to recognize a claim? If it's conquest that's the problem we'll have to go much further back than European invaders.

[Cleita]

11. I never said they lived in peace and harmony all the time. I said they were the first

humans here.

[dmallind]

12. But the topic was about borders. Which NA tribe sets those?

Why is it any different having a European invader who took the land by force set a boundary and having, again just as one example, a Comanche invader who took the land by force set a boundary?

The fact is the current US also has a (pre- and post-European) history of various tribes invading and taking over land.

[Cleita]

13. Native Americans didn't have borders as a rule. They just coopted

territories that could be fluid.

[dmallind]

16. Yes - fluid by violently expelling other tribes. What's the difference again?

[Cleita]

17. Why don't you tell me being you are such an expert.n/t

[dmallind]

18. I'm the one saying there is no substantive difference

I wouldn't care any more or any less if somebody expelling me from my home by force of arms was a pasty white Anglo mutt like me or an ebony-skinned Masai tribesman. Would you? Why? Would it matter if your great great great grandfather lived closer to the Masai or Middlesex? It wouldn't to me, but I'm not the one claiming (fairly fleeting on the scale of history) antecedence is a valid criteria for who should decide borders or social structure.

[Cleita]

19. The answer you want is in volumes of scholarly papers written on

the pre-columbian people of these continents and the impact of European contact on them and yet you want an answer here. It's all in the library if you really are interested.

[Cid_B]

9. So whats your year of perfect harmony?

[Silent3]

14. I'm not guilty of my father's sins, much less my great great great grandfather's

Nor do I claim that that which belonged to my great great great grandfather should have to be considered a rightful inheritance now belonging to me.

That kind of thinking is what keeps the Middle East and so many other areas of the world in so much turmoil.

When will it end? When people worry more about dealing with the status quo and more immediate history, trying to make everything better for everyone living now rather than worrying about who was someplace first long ago.

[Recovered Repug]

15. Oh yes.

The "I was here first" argument. If playground rules aren't in effect, anarchy will reign.