Did Obama ruin his presidency by tackling health care?

[Alhena]

I'm afraid he did. He didn't please many on the left by accepting a water-downed health care bill. And many on the right are completely outraged that some money will be taken out of their pockets to make life a little easier for the have-nots.

And here's the thing: health care was ALWAYS going to get worse in coming years, without or without a bill. Our population is aging and our medicare deficit is skyrocketing. There will be more need than resources to pay for it. Now the Democrats have "bought" the issue of health care and the Republicans will be able to point to the huge problems that clearly will exist in coming years as all being the fault of the health care bill.

From a political point of view, by far the smartest thing would have been to avoid this issue altogether. I think Obama would have been much smarter to tackle the issue of fairness in taxation and making the rich pay more in taxes. That's an issue that is both good policy and good politics. The health care bill is mediocre, watered-down policy and simply awful politics.

[TexasObserver]

1. No, he ruined it by trying to placate the GOP at all costs.

Instead of using the election mandate to act forcefully, he got bogged down in playing the role of the "reasonable man," and that was his undoing.

He needs a lot more FDR/LBJ in his presidency, and a lot less community organizer.

[laughingliberal]

2. +1000 nt

[SammyWinstonJack]

5. Yep!

[young but wise]

9. When and where did he give in to the Republicans?

[TexasObserver]

12. If you don't know, get back to me when you do.

I'm not here to educate those who have not kept up the past 21 months, but to discuss these issues with those who are informed.

When you're informed, I won't need to explain to you what is obvious to anyone paying attention the past two years.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TexasObserver]

38. Then, I shouldn't have to enumerate the ways he has done so.

Health Care
Iraq War
Banking Regulation
Deficit Reduction
DADT

to name a few.

[JamesA1102]

59. What a cop out! nt

[TexasObserver]

62. Asked, and answered.

[JamesA1102]

78. Asked but not answered at all nt.

[TexasObserver]

89. Yes, I did. Just a few posts up from your posts claiming I didn't.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9466796&mesg_id=9467368

[JamesA1102]

94. No you didn't. That is just a cop out. nt

[TexasObserver]

95. You realize, don't you, that others can read the thread and see you're wrong?

Your retorts are reduced to "did not!"

Stop being petulant.

[JamesA1102]

101. Yes just keep repeating that to yourself if that makes you feel better.

But you didn't.

[Posteritatis]

69. I seem to recall a certain deeply watered-down health reform bill, for starters. (nt)

[TexasObserver]

72. Yep. Delete "single payer" and replace with "mandatory insurance."

When the industry that you're supposed to be regulating is running the process, that's called "an industry bill."

The whole concept was doctored until it became something to help health insurers and providers get paid from private sources, while somewhat helping some segments of the populace and leaving out entirely others.

[Mimosa]

81. ^Sad But True^ n/t

[tomm2thumbs]

60. exactly - bullies sense when they can roll you - and they did just that

the GOP slowed everything down
stopped the ball from moving

we played right into their 'let's compromise' trap

they know Democrats are easy target for finding consensus - and making the most of the game playing involved to pull out at the last minute

[TexasObserver]

63. The GOP is obstructionist. They're a sociopathic party.

You can't trust them. You can't believe anything they say.

[tomm2thumbs]

85. yup, they just vote opposite to get a rise - they care little about America, just themselves

plain and simple - they would let the country go under and would move away if it served their 'greater purpose' of winning the argument

[Mimosa]

112. The GOP is a sociopathic party: truer words were never posted. n/t

[Kablooie]

68. And now he'll try even harder to placate them. Making the same mistake.

[TexasObserver]

73. We should turn it around on them. The veto decides what passes.

This is where the president's timidity to act forcefully has hurt. With the senate on the fence, there will be bad bills coming out.

[Radical Activist]

75. Back here in the real world, it was conservative Senate DEMOCRATS Obama had to negotiate with.

That's who watered it down. There wasn't enough support within the Democratic Senate caucus for a more progressive bill. That's a political reality that there's no sense blaming Obama for. If Obama had the same Senate as LBJ then we would have seen a much better bill.

[Lugnut]

90. Absolutely. n/t

[LWolf]

92. + 1,000,000

[dennis4868]

3. As Rachel Maddow said the other day....

Obama worked on policy the last 2 years, not politics. This is what led to last night's results.

[Alhena]

11. Yes, but he worked on very watered- down policy

it's one thing to defend a great bill on its merits. It's another thing to go to the trenches defending a bill that was largely written by health insurance lobbyists.

[dennis4868]

25. That's your opinion....

he got more for progressives in connection with HCR than any other president in 50 years.....he took what he could get.....like Obama said, it's a start and he wants to improve it.....

[sandnsea]

43. THEY are calling it Socialist National Health Care

The people who voted DON'T CARE about your health insurance lobbyist propaganda. THEY believed RUSH LIMBAUGH. The LEFT was whacking at windmills that nobody else cared about. We needed you to be whacking at the RIGHT WING LIES, and told you that daily for the last two years.

[End Of The Road]

4. Not a great tackle, was it? nt

[IndyPragmatist]

20. the timing may have hurt...

Healthcare was the big issue in 2008 before the economic crisis was evident to the general public (Gas prices were probably #2). But when the economy collapsed that fall, a lot of priorities shifted.

There are many people with healthcare that supported the reform. However, things change when you lose your job. As much as you would like to help those without healthcare, you want a job first. So, for many people without a job, they viewed the healthcare bill as something that should go on the back burner. And as you all know, most people only understand the economy when it shows up on their paycheck.

It would have been more popular if the economy were improving more.

[End Of The Road]

29. Too much of the deal-making was behind closed doors,

and we might have come away with less than we could have because of it.

[Skinner]

6. If health care cost us the election, it was worth it.

That is the single most important piece of legislation since the Great Society. Presidencies come and go, but health care is here to stay. It will be his legacy.

[flamingdem]

8. +1000

[crazylikafox]

13. I think you're right.

If we let the Pubs gut this legislation in the next two years, it was be a generation (again) before anyone tries to do it again.
We have to protect our gains, and history will thank us for it!

[NJmaverick]

15. I hadn't looked at it that way, but you're right

makes me feel a bit better.

[jpgray]

17. A backdoor deal with Billy Tauzin is a lamentable legacy

Especially considering Obama excoriated Tauzin during the campaign, citing him as the exact symbol for the game-playing he was coming to Washington to stop. It sundered his promises for affordable care and drug price negotiation utterly, and prevents any importation of FDA approved drugs at drastically lower prices.

It was a sop, and history will reveal it as such. AHIP and PhRMA love it, and I suppose you do too.

[Skinner]

36. I'm reminded of the tagline on the movie poster for "Hoffa":

"He did what he had to do."

Yes, it sucks that Obama had to cut deals. But the proof is in the pudding. He accomplished what others did not. Hopefully some future congress, trying to cut spending, will repeal the sweetheart deal with PhRMA.

[jpgray]

45. If anyone can pull it off, it's Obama

I'm not so down on the guy that I can't see that. He has enormous ability and charisma. 2012 is our chance to return to him what he lost, hopefully better than he found it in '09.

[bullwinkle428]

66. GREAT point about the Tauzin deal.

:thumbsup:

[Pirate Smile]

31. + 10000000

[NYC Liberal]

35. Amen! What more needs to be said?

:bounce: :kick: :bounce:

[Hekate]

40. Yes.

Skinner, you're a good soul.

[sandnsea]

42. If we can keep it the way it is

If Republicans start chipping away at it, probably better to just scrap the whole thing than to stick people with required insurance and no help to pay for it.

I don't think health care cost us the election, I think the distortions about health care, and the stimulus, and TARP, and 100 other issues, cost us the election.

[demgrrrll]

44. I agree

[cynatnite]

48. Say it again and say it loud! n/t

[dansolo]

53. THAT is the problem

He was so focused on his legacy, that he was willing to make any concessions in order to get anything passed. He likes to trumpet all of the positive parts of the bill, but there is still thousands of pages of crap in it. I believe that the best parts of the bill could have easily been passed on their own.

[Art_from_Ark]

88. The way I understand it, Skinner, it isn't health *care*

but rather health insurance that's the bone of contention. Certainly this was the public perception in Arkansas, and I'm sure in lots of other states as well. Listening to my hometown radio, and talking to people on my travels back to the state, I got the distinct impression that people were pissed off about being forced to buy private health insurance with no discernible benefits compared to their present situation, and they would still be stuck with the crappy system of high deductibles, or negotiating with the insurance company to determine who paid what or even what, exactly, was covered.

[coti]

100. *slams head down on desk*

uggh.

[ibegurpard]

109. do we have a "facepalm" smilie?

[flamingdem]

7. Covering 30 million uninsured shows he cares about Americans more than Repuke power freaks nt

[court jester]

33. how does "Covering 30 million uninsured shows he cares"?

Did I miss something? Obama is going to be giving away the insurance policies that his law mandated the people buy from for profit companies?

Insurance Pixie Dust. It's always like these 30 million are getting the best thing in their lives when its really just a monumental ripoff. Never how the IRS will harass people that can't pay in the first place.

To top it off, it's fundamentally a Republican plan. Just goes to show all you have to do is change a letter.

[Skinner]

37. A fundamentally republican plan...

...that got zero republican votes.

[exboyfil]

41. Agree the Health Care Law is a steaming pile

He should have gone with a single payer plan and sold it with all his credibility. Not a Hillary Clinton zoo flow chart, but a simple plan which represented an extension of Medicare, Medicaid, Federal workers, military, state workers if they sign up, etc. 15% of your income (all income not just wages) and you are covered for life with only a modest copay and no deductible). I think he could have sold such a plan. The efficiencies would be achieved mostly by monopsony (drugs and medical services) - not some nebulous record keeping.

When you are young an invulnerable you don't want to pay to cover yourself and the elderly. When you are old you expect the young to cover you without you contributing to the process when you were young (that is what Medicare is now). The only thing that works is to carry your insurance for life in a common pool.

So long as those without insurance are treated for emergencies, we will never have a sane health insurance system. My libertarian friend at work was recently mugged by this realization. His son, who is out of college without insurance because he doesn't have a job that provides it or income to pay for it, had an appendectomy. He was treated and is sitting on a $20K bill which he will never pay.

[flamingdem]

49. His son would be covered under HRC nt

[exboyfil]

54. As strange as it sounds it is better for my coworker

that HCR did not cover his son. He had his problem in a narrow window between graduating and before our corporate insurance could cover him (a child now at 26 irrespective of being in college). My friend would have faced a $3300 liability on his deductible (he had about $1K so far this year so it would have been an additional $3300 out of pocket for my coworker). I am not sure if that is the parent's debt or the son's debt. I think it would be the son's debt.

The son being basically destitute except for a college education could probably declare bankruptcy if it comes to it. Actually he will work out something with the hospital that will be significantly less than the $20K cost.

If he had been able to hide his identity when he went into the emergency room, then he would not be on the hook for anything. That works all the time for certain segments in our society.

As our deductibles continue to rise under our insurance, the temptation to play dodge em with the hospital increases. Both our deductibles and our premiums are going up this year in part because of the covereage extended to those under 26.

Healthcare should not be linked to employment - it is a dangerous situation with COBRA being only a stopgap solution. Once you get insurance, you should have it for life and pay for it for life. The whole pool needs to be extended across all ages.

[court jester]

71. someone actually did a flow chart of the Health Insurance Ripoff & Serfdom act

(heh heh pix is named zero care)

--"So long as those without insurance are treated for emergencies, we will never have a sane health insurance system..."

We might if we started asking why an aspirin is $24.95. And by the way, do you even know if you ate all the essential vitamins and minerals and fats that you need daily? Our food is broken.

--" He was treated and is sitting on a $20K bill which he will never pay.


Count to 10- your government just blew $20,000 driving around Iraq and drone bombing our newest enemies, thereby providing a reason to drone more.

it's a breakdown

[jpgray]

10. Here's what voters wanted:

Did he even attempt to provide it?

[BeFree]

14. Gawd, not this again

HCR was a start that HAD to be done, and he did it. Ignoring problems and hoping they just go away is not good for the people.

If Obama failed at anything, it was a failure to not bust the balls of the people's enemies. He can begin by making sure the recovery plan works as intended and puts more people back to work.

[Naturyl]

16. He ruined it not by "tackling" health care, but by timidly poking it.

Health care wasn't tackled. It was playfully jostled slightly, with plenty of checks to make sure the Republican bullies were okay with everything.

[pacalo]

18. In regard to the health care bill, if not now, when? I'm proud of him for that.

It took courage & I think he wouldn't regret it for a moment.

It's the moderation that could hurt him. He's allowing his Democratic roots & principles to fall aside. He should know by now that the thugs want to do his presidency harm. The thugs are in perpetual campaigning mode, they don't know about governing, & their only cause for existence is to sling mud.

[tularetom]

19. Given the political realities it was the best deal he could have struck

However, many of us wish he could have reached this point by staking out a strong public option position and then backing off from it.

Instead of nearly giving away the entire store at the beginning and then having to fight like hell to preserve what was left.

[gulliver]

21. Not tackling it was not an option.

Bad as a few on the left think it is, not addressing it would have been perceived as worse. The real heroes don't assume that they are going to get out of a battle without scars. That's how you recognize them.

[upi402]

22. He ruined it by being corporatist, betraying the people

He helped banksters and stabbed his supporters in the back. He was an appeaser of sociopaths. He went middle- straight for the yellow lines and dead armadillos.

[Drale]

23. No he just didnt sell it enough

like saying that something like 80% of US debt is due to the lack of health care.

[Vinca]

24. The way he tackled it might have ruined his presidency.

He should have kept it simple: Medicare For All. People could buy into it or not buy into it, their choice.

[SammyWinstonJack]

27. +1

[Think82]

28. then we probably would have gotten nothing.

just saying

[exboyfil]

47. How would that have helped

If you are young and invulnerable, you don't buy in. You need the total pool (maintaining the same insurance for life) for this approach to be successful.

[Vinca]

91. Well . . . it seems the current enrollment is optional with a tax penalty

if you don't buy in, so there's no reason a program everyone is familiar with wouldn't have gone over better.

[Lance_Boyle]

26. He didn't 'tackle' health care. He chop-blocked it, breaking both its knees

and forcing it to drag its mangled body to his desk for a "triumphant" signing ceremony.

It should have been left to die with dignity.

[jaxx]

30. Part of the recovery is tied to health care reform.

Once is gets fully implemented it'll save money and it will ensure 95% have coverage. It was hard, it was contentious and it was done. No way could he have walked away without trying. Some days I have to laugh instead of running away screaming at the inconsistencies. He didn't do this and he didn't do that.....and one of big things he did now should be on hold? OMG

[Rambis]

32. We lost the health care battle 1993 (nm)

x

[taught_me_patience]

39. It was the filling of his staff with bankers and corporatists

then letting the banks off the hook for the damage they caused to the economy. He should have hit those fuckers hard.

[exboyfil]

46. Lots of ivory tower types and wall street types

but no manufacturing types or main street types.

[dansolo]

50. He should have limited the scope of his healthcare reform

Instead of pushing this monstrosity of a bill, he should have just focused on the few provisions that are popular and pushed them. The irony is that the least popular items in the bill are the ones that were inserted as concessions to the Republicans and the insurance lobbying groups. All of the provisions that people actually like could have easily passed on their own without being part of the larger bill, and they would have avoided the whole "socialized medicine" canard.

I can not understand why they don't just push forward individual bills that have a narrow focus. When you package a whole bunch of stuff into one bill, it becomes too easy to demonize what it does. You should be able to describe exactly what a bill does in one or two sentences.

[SoCalDem]

51. No. but he damaged it by not doing it correctly

He should have insisted that insurance companies had had a 45-50 year free ride, and it was time for them to get off the bus.

Medicare for all, with non-retired, paying realistically-priced premiums into medicare. Insurance companies could still issue coverage plans for the 20% not covered by Medicare.

Breaking the insurance company stranglehold was the most important part, and he skipped that part.

The wiggle words were his downfall:

accessible
affordable

[AtomicKitten]

52. Of course not! He kept his promise to Teddy Kennedy.

[elleng]

55. WTF b.s. is this? 'RUIN his Presidency?' This is DU, isn't it?

Join the team, please.

[Marr]

56. No, he ruined it by playing a corporate shell game with healthcare.

His mistake wasn't "tackling healthcare", which was something huge majorities wanted. His mistake was in maneuvering in political backrooms to morph the thing into an insurance industry bailout, and apparently assuming his supporters were just as stupid as Bush's.

[alsame]

57. If there was no intention of fundamentally changing the

structure of employer based insurance (ie, going to non-profit Public Option or Single Payer), then this should have been presented as INSURANCE reform.

All the good things in the bill - coverage for kids up to age 26, no denial for pre-existing conditions, no lifetime caps, etc. would likely have been embraced by the public. Being screwed by the insurance companies is something that crosses party lines and demographic groups.

I suspect there would have been much less resistance to something called insurance reform and it wouldn't have been as easy for the GOP to distort the bill. No charges of socialized medicine, death panels, etc. It would have been about reigning in abuses by the insurance company.

[leftstreet]

64. +1

Very well reasoned

[Uncle Joe]

67. I agree that's what prevented the Democrats from taking the moral high ground on this issue.

Without the moral high ground to serve as a strong emotional foundation to run on, their campaigns were built on shifting sand.

[GoCubsGo]

58. I didn't realize it was "ruined". n/t

[socialshockwave]

61. The bill is unpopular

Because the Right was allowed to walk all over it. They were able to sell their message of lies and deceit, saying that the bill will lead to rationing and death panels, along with deficit.

When none of those three are remotely true. The Democrats did NOTHING to combat that message. They didn't fight back hard enough. The Right, for all their faults, ran hard. They pushed and the Democrats simply fell down without much resistance.

In order to try to get the health care bill out to the American people and really show them what it means, The Democrats need to counter the lies.

Even more so, don't compromise. I'm angry enough at the Democrats for their compromises. At least now, even with a smaller caucus, it means less Blue Dogs. Things are looking up, my American friends -- just wait and see. :)

[bullwinkle428]

65. The first major thing he tackled was the Stimulus Bill!! Yeah, it wasn't

nearly big enough, but it's not like he blew everything off in favor of health care.

[blindpig]

70. He ruined it by fucking up health care.

Medicare for all would have hit the ball out of the park.

[alanquatermass]

74. "For Profit" health care is fucking immoral!!!

Obama's plan -- while a decent enough start -- did not go far enough, as far as I'm concerned.

It's actually very simple, folks: We need to cut private insurance out of the fucking picture, and make health care Public Option Only!

Good medical care is a fucking RIGHT, after all, not a privilege.

[area51]

99. +1, and welcome to DU.

Each day, 273 people die due to lack of health care in the U.S.; that's 100,000 deaths per year.

We need single-payer health care, not a welfare bailout for the serial-killer insurance agencies.

We don't need the GingrichCare of mandated, unregulated, for-profit insurance that is still too expensive, only pays parts of medical bills, denies claims, bankrupts and kills people.

Republinazi '93 plan:

"Subtitle F: Universal Coverage - Requires each citizen or lawful permanent resident to be covered under a qualified health plan or equivalent health care program by January 1, 2005."

"We will never have real reform until people's health stops being treated as a financial opportunity for corporations."

"Any proposal that sticks with our current dependence on for-profit private insurers ... will not be sustainable. And the new law will not get us to universal coverage ...." -- T.R. Reid, The Healing of America

[alanquatermass]

102. Hear, hear! Single payer, baby!

It's the only way to fly!!!

[alanquatermass]

103. Hear, hear! Single payer, baby!

It's the only way to fly!!!

[Rex]

76. No he fucked up by not going far enough on health care.

And the polls responded in kind.

[LawnLover]

77. If he did, I don't care

We needed healthcare reform and what he did was historic.

[Mimosa]

82. Historic but wrong.

I was denied health insurance policy I could afford 2 weeks ago. So what do i do? Wait until 2014?

The screwing around subservience to big health insurance and big pharma hurt Obama. But it hurt people more.

[LawnLover]

107. Tell that to millions of people

My son continued to GET health care under our policy even after he finished school. So maybe he cancels you out?

Health care reform was seriously needed, we've been trying for DECADES, and Obama did it. And just like Medicare and Social Security (which started as a program for widows and orphans only), health care reform will grow and become better over the years.

[Mimosa]

111. Are you nuts?

In what America do you live? Somebody getting health insurance 'cancels out' another citizen?

And you are totally wrong that Social Security -in the late 1930- started as a widows and orphans plan. What you're referring to is a Civil War veterans plan. You don't know what you're talking about and I dare not say what i think you are.

[LawnLover]

113. Lighten up. I was simply making a POINT

which was apparently completely lost on you.

And you're PARTIALLY right about social security -- mea culpa. HOWEVER, it started out as a limited form of what it is today and grew. Just like Medicare. So the argument still stands, despite my error.

And feel free to tell me what you think I am. Call me names if you have to. That doesn't change the fact that Obama's health care reform is a good thing that will only get better over the years.

[Exilednight]

79. He ruined his presidency by not taking on health care ......

He listened to lobbyists and cut backroom deals that should have never been made.

He allowed lobbyists to write the bill and in the process he sold out the public and those that helped get him elected.

Most of all, he failed to address the core problem of health insurance - THE RISING COST!

[MikeW]

80. Nope ...

He ruined it by not talking economy and jobs in a serious, direct way WITH SOLUTIONS!!

[David__77]

83. Partially ruined, by not pushing Medicare for all.

That is the ONLY solution. All this other Romney-schemes are just austerity measures.

[ScreamingMeemie]

84. No, because he didn't tackle health care. He tackled the people of America

and slammed them into the sidelines of paying for overpriced under coverage health insurance.

No sir, he did not tackle health care. Sorry. But...four years from now I still will not be able to afford health "care".

[Safetykitten]

86. Yes.

[readmoreoften]

87. No, he ruined it by making mincemeat out of it and letting it be corporate crap.

[DCBob]

93. Hindsight.. Obama & the Dems should have focused on the economy almost exclusively first 12 months..

Healthcare battle took alot wind out of the sails.. but kudos to them for trying and at least coming up with partial reform that will help some people.

[gkhouston]

96. And yet, I think it's going to be harder for the Republicans to uproot the extant

healthcare legislation, with all its imperfections, than it would have been for them to undo tax legislation. You can bamboozle people about tax cuts and and increases by making theoretical trickle-down arguments that can be difficult to attack if you don't have data at your fingertips. It's harder to tell someone that you're taking away recission or their ability to keep their kids on their insurance until they're 23 (or is it 25 now?) and convince them it's a Good Thing.

[Individualist]

97. No. His DLC agenda is what ruined his presidency.

[prodigals0n]

98. I don't belive health care was the reason because

The Republicans would have used any initiative the President came up with against him.

But to make matters worse, the Democrats and the compromise king refused to include single payer or even a public option so the health care insurance industry got far more of what it wanted than the people and the Republicans still get a nice political football to kick around.

President Obama didn't make a mistake with health care reform other than failing to go far enough and force the Republicans to publicly choose between real reform or the health care lobby. The Democrats let wackos like Palin talk about fictitious "death panels" all summer before even speaking. They reminded me once again of Kerry going on vacation in the middle of the 2004 campaign.

I'm beginning to wonder whether the Democratic Party leadership is inept or complicit.

[fascisthunter]

104. Tackle???? More like Touch

[spanone]

105. no , not by tackling it. not at all.

[deacon]

106. No. n/t

[ibegurpard]

108. no

but what he signed off on certainly didn't help

[VMI Dem]

110. Health insurance...not health care.