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ocpagu Donating Member (154 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 09:50 AM
Original message
Brazil's Rapidly Expanding Influence Worries Neighbors
LA PAZ, Bolivia — Sandal-clad indigenous protesters have excoriated their president, calling him a “lackey of Brazil.” Angry demonstrations in front of Brazil’s embassy here denounced its “imperialist” tendencies. Bolivian intellectuals lambasted the “São Paulo bourgeoisie,” likening them to the slave hunters who expanded the boundaries of colonial Brazil.

Such heated words used to be reserved for the United States, which has wielded extraordinary influence across Latin America. But as American dominance in the region recedes and Brazil increasingly flexes its newfound political and economic might, it has begun to experience the pitfalls of the role as well: a pushback against the hemisphere’s rising power.

“Power has shifted from one side of Avenida Arce to the other,” said Fernando Molina, a local newspaper columnist, referring to the street in La Paz where the Brazilian ambassador’s residence sits opposite the towering embassy of the United States.

Brazilian endeavors are being met with wariness in several countries. A proposal to build a road through Guyana’s jungles to its coast has stalled because of fears that Brazil could overwhelm its small neighbor with migration and trade.

In Argentina, officials suspended a large project by a Brazilian mining company, accusing it of failing to hire enough locals. Tension in Ecuador over a hydroelectric plant led to bitter legal battle, and protests by Asháninka Indians in Peru’s Amazon have put in doubt a Brazilian dam project.

Read more:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/05/world/americas/brazils-rapidly-expanding-influence-worries-neighbors.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

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I guess it's just natural that any Latin American country feels doubtful of any possible imperialist threats - even associated with Brazil. Unfortunately the Workers' Party still depends - and even works with - on right-wingers who see the current prosperity momment as perfect for making their plan of Brazil becoming "the United States of South America" work. The Brazilian elite's candidate, José Serra, openly advocated for the end of the Mercosur in the 2010 campaign, as well as for bilateral free trade agreements with developed economies, and also attacked Evo Morales, Hugo Chaves and Rafael Correa. It's a mistake to believe that the Brazilian right wing is no longer in power. They are too strong, Brazil still can not produce a true Hugo Chavez. But the Brazilian right wing's plans for South America are, for sure, much more obscure than the capitalist integration proposed by center-left Workers' Party so far. Serra's proposal was clear: undo all the achievements of regional integration obtained in the last 20 years.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 04:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. I was too late to recommend, but thank you for this info!
This is a VERY important matter--how Brazil, with its vast land base, vast resources, vast population and consequent inherent power--behaves in regard to other Latin American countries.

I was aware that Brazil's rightwing is stronger than that of most South American countries but I was NOT aware of how nakedly Brazil's rightwing is attacking the new and quite revolutionary spirit of cooperation among LatAm countries, a new spirit that is so extraordinarily important to the welfare and prosperity of the region, and that is such a palpable threat to the Corporate Rulers and their chief advocate, the U.S. government. This is very interesting. I could see that Lula da Silva--and likely his successor, Dilma Rouseff (his former chief of staff)--have been pivotal in promoting the "raise all boats" philosophy that started with Hugo Chavez and his government. I could also sense that da Silva/Rousseff have a much more powerful and difficult rightwing to contend with, and that the regional economic projects that da Silva/Rousseff have promoted could be misused and misappropriated to ill purposes. And that appears to be what you are saying: the rightwing does not support regional development to "raise all boats"; they are into domination; and they oppose cooperation and social justice for all, and instead follow the U.S. model of plunder and enslavement.

One key to understanding da Silva (and Rousseff) was their amazing backing of Mel Zelaya in Honduras, when he was ousted in a U.S.-backed coup d'etat. They even invited him to use the Brazilian embassy for refuge when he first returned to the country. This was extraordinary. You could think of it as Brazil rivaling the U.S.--that is, backing a small country's democracy that the U.S. was destroying, simply to make the point that Brazil is the power in the region now. Or you could think of it as these leftist leaders sincerely being pissed off at another U.S. coup and acting in solidarity with the anti-coup majority in Honduras. I NEVER felt that they had a bad or hidden motive in backing Zelaya. They had nothing to gain and much to lose--and, in fact, weren't successful in their immediate aim of restoring Honduran democracy. But I could well understand how Brazil's rightwing might have gone along with this for their own motives. I don't know if they did go along with it--overtly or covertly--but the problem is nevertheless clear: That even Brazil's good actions could end up merely enhancing Brazil's power, and, while a da Silva or Rousseff would use that power to benefit "the many," the rightwing and the Corporate Rulers in Brazil and elsewhere would misuse that power to loot and plunder and enrich the rich. (Just as an imaginary example, telecommunications in Honduras--which John McCain has an interest in, one of the hidden motives behind the coup--might have been a target of Brazilian corporatists. Da Silva/Rousseff help fend off the U.S. takeover, then Brazilian corporatists move in.)

I would like to learn much more about Brazilian politics. Da Silva did many truly extraordinary things--he did in fact help stop the U.S. backed coup in Bolivia in 2008, and was adamant in his friendship for, and backing of, Hugo Chavez, against the many attacks by the U.S. He is the one who led the famous 20-country walkout at the WTO in Cancun. He has used Brazil's clout to aid Bolivia's and Paraguay's leftist governments. He's done and said many amazing things--and none of them have struck me as Brazilian power-mongering or maneuvering for power. I think they were based on his own strong political and ethical beliefs. He believes in peace and cooperation and region-wide, collective strength--and I think that is true also of Rousseff.

But da Silva also made what I consider mistakes--for instance, his wretched biofuels deal with the Bushwhacks. But his main mistake is the mistake of ALL of the new leftist leaders in LatAm--with the possible exception of Evo Morales: that is, believing in the industrial model as opposed to creating a NEW, earth-friendly model for social and economic improvement. The industrial model is destroying the planet--and we don't have much time (50 years, according to the World Wildlife Fund, 'til the death of planet earth from pollution and over-consumption!). Morales and much of his Bolivian support have tried to articulate and implement a different, more sustainable vision--but Morales has also gotten trapped in the industrial model for immediate relief of dire poverty. That is what the conflict with the Indigenous is about in Bolivia, and also in Ecuador and Peru: that a truly sustainable, environmental model is very, VERY difficult to achieve. Thus, Morales welcomed Brazil's help with connecting Bolivia to the new superhighway from Brazil to the Pacific, for instance.

One thing I would like to know is who wrote this article for the New York Slimes. It has the smell of Simon Romero, but I have never doubted that his slime and the New York Slimes' slime were one and the same. I don't click on NY Slimes' article--just a tiny little thing of mine, in protest--but I'd like to know if there is yet another slimebag 'journalist' at work on LatAm at that fallen and disreputable journalistic ikon.

I suspect that a Corporate Ruler strategy is at work. They can't stop the leftist revolution in South America--and probably can't stop it in Central America--so they've devised a new strategy of "divide and conquer." Any conflict that comes along, they will exaggerate and push to the max. And they particularly slaver over conflicts among leftists. It's even possible that the CIA is busy in leftist groups and is behind some of the protests against development projects. I won't say that they are--though we know damn well that that's what they do--but there are also a lot of natural and inherent conflicts between leftist leaders who want to create jobs and infrastructure and wealth to benefit all, and environmentalists and the Indigenous, who want to protect the earth, our only home, and develop a sustainable economic model, so difficult to do. In Ecuador, these two forces have been bitterly clashing for some time, and one of Rafael Correa's points has been that Ecuador's resources belong to ALL Ecuadorans, not just to the Indigenous. It is a searing conflict for leftists. The biggest Indigenous group in Ecuador even sat on their hands during the recent rightwing coup attempt against Correa--apparently willing to see a leftist government go down, over their environmental conflicts with Correa.

I remember when California was at the height of its most frenzied development, in the 1950s and 1960s. I strongly supported the Democratic politicians who led that development and were pro-labor and pro-people. It took me some decades to learn of the cost to the environment--the utter devastation of California's unique ancient redwood forest, for instance. I don't know if I would support them today, and I've found the more recent Democratic Party leadership's environmental policies to be appalling, but poverty is also appalling--and poverty in LatAm is huge and wretched.

So, I'm not saying that the New York Slimes are inventing a conflict that doesn't exist, although they are capable of it. (They invented a whole terrible war that needn't have been, the bastards!) But why focus on this? There are so many things that they HAVEN'T focused on, about LatAm's leftist democracy revolution--haven't EVER even mentioned! For instance, the Chavez's government's awesome reductions in poverty, and vast improvement in public participation and clean elections. These HUGE achievements have NEVER BEEN MENTIONED by the Slimes or any of the Corporate propaganda sheets. Not. One. Word.

Another example is the accord between Chavez and da Silva--one of the most important keys to understanding what has happened in South America over the last decade. Not. One. Word.

But smell a conflict that the Corporate Rulers can exploit, and they are on it like the sharks smelling blood. In truth, they would like to rip the leftist democracy movement's throat and stomp on its face. They would assassinate all of its leaders if they could--which is what the U.S. has tried to do in Colombia and now in Honduras. We are not talking nice, democratic, well-meaning people, at the Slimes--or anywhere in the Corporate News, including the BBCons. They don't publish articles like this FOR NO REASON, nor to inform, nor to educate, nor to improve the American peoples' understanding of the world They publish carefully, carefully crafted articles, designed to serve the monstrous transglobal corporations and war profiteers who rule over us.

It's a big mistake to take them at face value. Remember Judith Miller! Never forget what they did. Never!

And what are they doing NOW?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. What would it take for the corporate media to operate honestly?
Probably nothing short of a revolution.

You know the subject well, it is scum-sucking, congenitally morally twisted Simon Romero.

Maybe it's a case of colossal alchoholism which has destroyed his "moral compass," looks like good old-fashioned ambition, like knowing the power people will smill upon him for being a "good boy" and helping them maintain the ancient evil lie, that anyone who doesn't bow to the will of power is to be destroyed, while those who aid and abet will be royally rewarded for their sins here on earth.

Romero's record remains intact: still dirty.



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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-11 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. The Brazilian right wing is dead
Edited on Mon Nov-21-11 10:18 PM by Meshuga
Thank god they have no power whatsoever. The last time they had power it was because they imposed it by force but the Brazilian people had enough of them after a long (and not forgotten) dictatorship. But in today's politics, calling either major party coalition left or right is nothing but a myth espoused by the party faithful.

The complaints by its neighbors that Brazil acts as an imperialistic power in South America is unfortunately not new. Lula and Rousseff should get credit for Brazil's good fortune but also for the embarrassing stuff since Rousseff is in power. Serra is not. Serra did not win the election so I am not even sure why his name is being mentioned in this thread. And Serra did not "openly advocated" the end of Mercosul. He criticized Mercosur (a known gaffe) but Serra explicitly claimed that he did not want to end it. Regardless, Serra does not have any power in Brazil and his opinion has no influence except to show that he is a buffoon. People who dislike Serra always try to fit him with the right but he does not fit.

Again, the left versus right dynamic does not really apply to Brazilian politics. There is the party coalition in power and the opposition that complaints on the other side. That's it. In Brazil, both parties are very much alike in practice but differ in their rhetoric in the political theater so their faithful can bash each other. Choosing sides in Brazilian politics is like choosing a soccer team to root for and then hating the opposition. To Petistas, PSDB an evil "right-wing" organization (when in truth PSDB is to the left of the US Democratic party). To the PSDB Tucanos, PT is a party of power hungry incompetent demagogues. The name calling goes on and both sides keep on hating each other. But again, in the end, they both govern in the same way.

The truth is that Brazil has been a center-left country with either PSDB or PT is in the executive. Dilma Rousseff approval ratings is going through the roof as she has surpassed both Lula and Fernando Henrique Cardoso when they were in their first year of their presidencies. And she is gaining ground with the middle class that tend to be centrists. And I see her governing in the same way as her predecessors. Except that she is tougher then them regarding corruption and I think she is smarter and more capable. In short, Brazil is in good hands. They just need to adopt a better "good neighbor policy" and act as an example rather than be the imperialists that they criticize of others while doing it themselves.
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Hey! I think many need to see the world as their own country
They need an extreme-right and/or a hardcore neoliberal party
With a white Tea Party movement
And a racist "racially" non-mixed majority

It's because they never put a foot out of their town :-(

Nice to see you around
:hi:
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. It's nice seeing you as well
:hi:
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ocpagu Donating Member (154 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. I really have to disagree with you about that.
Edited on Thu Nov-24-11 12:14 AM by ocpagu
I believe your ideas are pretty much a stereotypical repetition of Brazilian media speech.

The Brazilian right wing is alive and kicking. They have a huge power. In fact, the military junta's party (ARENA, Aliança Renovadora Nacional) still exists: it just changed its name to DEM (short for "Democrats"...LOL). Not only it still exists: it's bigger than the Worker's Party in number of affilates, they control many state governments (as well as many newspapers, radios and TV networks), they have a huge number of congressmen. And, they share a political alliance with PSDB which is - José Serra's party. They've governed the State of São Paulo and the 3 states of Southern Brazil (the richest part of Brazil) for the last 2 decades.

PSDB PRETENDS to be a left wing party - because being a right wing party is reason enough to lose votes in Brazil. They were a left wing at their start. With the victory of the Worker's Party they've progressively leaned toward the right wing, chasing for greater political support and votes.

Serra and his party advocate for neoliberalism in its most savage form. They advocate for minimal state and they try to achieve this goal. They are in action.

If you do believe that a country with a GDP of some US$ trillions which still has one of the world's worst inequality records and 1/3 of its people living slums is free of a powerful rightwing, I'm sorry to say, my friend, but you're being naive.

The Brazilian right wing is alive, always were and, unfortunately, always will be. They're just hiding under the diguise of "centrists" because it's necessary for them to keep ALSO the political power. The economical power is still all theirs.
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ocpagu Donating Member (154 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Now...
Edited on Thu Nov-24-11 12:32 AM by ocpagu
... if you still have doubts about it and you're able to read Portuguese, I recommend you reading this report:

http://ultimosegundo.ig.com.br/politica/extrema-direita-universitaria-se-alia-a-skinheads/n1597226175495.html

"University extreme-right-wingers make alliance with skinheads"

As you can read in this report, a branch of Jose Serra's party (PSDB) devoted to gathering young militants is trying to make a political alliance with SKINHEADS to gain control of University of São Paulo's students union. You also can read that one of their leaders' goals is capital punishment to citizens who profess communist ideology.

How leftist does that sound to you?
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. It's funny that you accept the article at face value without questioning its bias
And then you complain that the media that does not buy into the "left-versus-right" world view must be a sell out to the Brazilian right-wing. :eyes:

The same article you provided has a link to a response by Olavo de Carvalho who points out the fact that the article was structured in a way to make it seem like the quotes from militant students of the UCC were quotes from skinheads instead. Hence, the vagueness supports the title. I do not ideologically agree with Olavo de Carvalho but I can see his complaint that the article intentionally tries to make it seem like he was inspiring skinheads.

In short, your attempt to link Serra to skinheads with this article fails. It only shows your bias and exaggeration to keep whatever you wish to believe as the "truth."

Do you want to attack Serra? It is easy. He is a schmuck. All you have to do is use his words against him. He is a dick who would say anything (and sell his soul) to get elected. But he has no link to skinheads no matter how easily you are willing to accept it just so you can keep the "torcida de futebol" style of politics that you subscribe to from collapsing.
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ocpagu Donating Member (154 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. ...
"I do not ideologically agree with Olavo de Carvalho but I can see his complaint that the article intentionally tries to make it seem like he was inspiring skinheads."

If there's a Brazilian author inspiring skinheads, this author is Olavo de Carvalho. I can understand he doesn't admit that. I don't expect criminals to confess their crimes.

"In short, your attempt to link Serra to skinheads with this article fails."

Why? A branch of his party is trying to make an alliance with a group connected to skinheads. That's a link.

"But he has no link to skinheads no matter how easily you are willing to accept it just so you can keep the "torcida de futebol" style of politics that you subscribe to from collapsing."

You don't know me at all. You don't know who I support. So don't pretend to be an expert on the subject of what I am willing to do. Keep you arguments on the subject, not on me.

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Thank you for your comments, ocpagu. Very helpful for those of us trying to overcome
all the misinformation we've been given by our own political system, and its whores in the corporate media.

Do know you are doing many of us a great favor. As we learn more, we will be able to start gaining the ability more quickly of distinguishing pure crap from the honest, decent truth.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-teWaK7A1amY/TfkEanfMh2I/AAAAAAAATiM/6OOGr571v_c/s1600/brasil+nunca+mais.jpg





Parrot's Perch, a torture method used by the right-wing Brazilian government.


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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. If fighting misinformation is the case...
Edited on Fri Nov-25-11 12:33 PM by Meshuga
...then why not question every article that comes in? I mean, even the ones that says what you want to hear and comes from a supposedly trustworthy source?
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. .
Edited on Fri Nov-25-11 02:25 PM by ChangoLoa
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Sorry we will have to disagree
Yes, Brazil slums exist and there are a lot of people still living in misery in Brazil but you cannot be serious when you claim that these conditions still exist because Brazil still has a "right-wing" with power. That is a silly oversimplification of Brazil's very complex problems.

If you want to find reasons that there are so many people in need in Brazil you have to turn to its history going far back to before the whole concept of left versus right even existed. Of course that the incompetence of right-wing regimes (when they actually held on to power) contributed. No one is denying that. But it is ridiculous to oversimplify the situation in Brazil as "Brazil has a right-wing problem and that is why the slums and poverty still exist."

Brazil's problems won't go away overnight even if we have a sensible left wing party holding on to power for decades. Brazil has a problem that will take several generations to solve and the country does not need a "left-right" bickering for this process to take place. Instead, Brazil needs vision and competence.

But of course, if anyone goes against the "right-left" construct (that keeps the political demagogues going and provides an easy to digest scenario where it is easy to take sides) the person is automatically considered sheep to media bias. It's the old, "if you are not with us then you are with the enemy" bullshit.

Of course there is biased media in Brazil (i.e., Revista Veja is sickingly biased in favor of conservatives) but the media outlet that is biased likes the left-versus-right bickering because it serves their purposes. If there is any media that recognizes that Brazil's problems are not so simplistic as to call it right-vs-left then the media outlet is hardly doing the bid of the right or the left.

The Democratas (DEM) are indeed to the right of center but they are hardly right-wing. In the same way that the worker's party is hardly left wing.

And PSDB does not pretend to be a left wing party. Unfortunately they pretend to be conservative when they are in fact centrists.

The Workers Party is the one that pretends to be left wing but are centrists in practice. Both parties only fool the idiots who fall in the war of ideologies that ended with the fall of the dictatorship.

Regardless, Brazil is a country that has policies that fall to the center left no matter who is in power. And that is a good thing.
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ocpagu Donating Member (154 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Here we go...
Edited on Fri Nov-25-11 10:15 PM by ocpagu
You started your first reply to my post claiming that "The Brazilian right wing is dead" and "Thank god they have no power whatsoever."

Now... do you really believe in what you said? If you do, I'm sorry, but you're extremely naive or unbelievebly uninformed. Really. I've read several opinions on this subject, from respected right-wingers to respected left-wingers. The only person so far I've seen defending a similar opinion to yours is Olavo de Carvalho. Olavo de Carvalho is widely known in Brazil for being nothing but a lunatic extreme right-winger.

"Nothing is created, nothing is lost, everything is transforming". If you do believe that "there is no right wing in Brazil" PLEASE explain to me what the heck happened to all the social structure, the elite, the businessmen, media companies, militaries, policemen, politicians, judges, militants that supported the military junta for two decades. Explain to me how a country that has gone through 4 military coups and being ruled for almost two centuries by conservative forces simply get rid of these forces by... an election of a left wing party.

You see, the incapacity that Olavo de Carvalho shows in answering this same question is basically the reason why everybody calls him a lunatic. And they are right for doing so.

I'm talking about REALITY. You are talking about semantics.

And this:

"The Democratas (DEM) are indeed to the right of center but they are hardly right-wing."

Really makes me wonder what you're doing in DU. DEM is the heir of ARENA, Aliança Renovadora Nacional, THE FACIST party of the MILITARY JUNTA responsible for killing and torturing hundreds of citizens. Will you DENY that? You're calling this people "hardly right-wing"?

I'm sorry. I'm over with you.
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. You are not talking REALITY (as you claim) you are talking LABELS
You are merely using labels instead of current empirical data in the way the groups govern and their proposed policies to categorize them.

It is funny that you are now trying to pin me with Olavo de Carvalho whom you see as someone who inspires skinheads. Nice! Thanks for smearing me. :eyes:

You can try to smear me all you want just because I disagree with you but I never said that I was in favor of Olavo de Carvalho, ARENA, DEM, etc. The only reason anyone would come to the conclusion that I am "right-wing" and not fit to post in DU is either because the person is being malicious or did not read (or was unable to comprehend) my posts.

You say that I am playing a game of semantics when all I am saying is that the binary political environment that you envision and present here does not exist in Brazil. It only exist for those who call themselves "left" or "right" in order to call each other names and create a simplistic picture for something that is more complex than they can ever comprehend.

I'm sorry but the picture in Brazil is much more complex than you present. If you come to the conclusion that I am a "right-winger" just for saying what I have said so far then I have to just sit in amazement.

In political science you have to use empirical data before you can categorize a group. And one can observe and see that DEM has been conservative to the center (and very close to the center) when governing which is not anything like the right wing from the dictatorship. That does not exist today except for fringe assholes who have no real say in how things should be run. The fact is that all the past administrations from the 1990's until now have governed in a way that brings stability to Brazil (all center-progressive presidencies) and they have been successful even though there is a lot to be fixed in Brazil.

In your oversimplification of Brazilian politics you use labels to tie groups together and use it as an excuse not to look deeper. This way you miss that ARENA of the 1960's and 1970's is not anything like the DEM of today.
Do you really think that a right wing candidate for president would win the election in Brazil? I don't think so. Therefore I stick with my original claim. The Brazilian right is DEAD! The "right versus left" struggle obviously existed at the time of the dictatorship but it is now a thing of the past.

Brazil has now PSDB and PT as the two major forces at least in the elections for the executive. Both parties have coalitions that include conservatives and progressives. Regardless of the smears that one side uses against the other, they both are very similar when in power.
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ocpagu Donating Member (154 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. And you insist.
I didn't see you using empirical data to prove that "the Brazilian right wing is dead". We have indigenous leaders being massacred in Brazil, ruralist congressmen trying (and being well-succeeded) to alter the Constitution to exploit the Amazon, mayors advocating in favor of mass deportation of poor migrants from the Northeast, deputies and senators like Jair Bolsonaro being elected, a massive mediatic campaign attacking the credibility of the Worker's Party, etc. I could go on and on, but I think that it would be useless. I asked a question to you, and you just ignored it. I'll repeat that question: what happened to the social structure that supported the military dictactorship in Brazil? What happened to the conservative forces that ruled Brazil for two centuries? They just became left-wingers after Lula was elected? Is that what you're claiming?

As for Olavo de Carvalho, I'm not trying to "smear you". I'm being 100% honest: among the well-known political scientists of Brazil, Olavo de Carvalho is the only one that endorses your argument ("there's no right wing in Brazil"). The difference is that Carvalho considers that to be a catastrophic event and you seem to be pleased about it. But your argument and his is the same.

"You say that I am playing a game of semantics when all I am saying is that the binary political environment that you envision and present here does not exist in Brazil."

I'm not presenting a "binary political environment" of Brazil. That's just how you chose to understand what I wrote. I'm saying that there is still a STRONG right wing in Brazil and this right wing is operating whithin every party. There are right wingers inside of Workers Party, for example. And PSDB, though keeping their speech of being "left-wing" are becoming progressively a right-wing party, and that there is already an extreme-right wing branch inside that party. It's NONSENSE to believe that any country is free of conservative forces, because there is NO COUNTRY free of a powerful conservative elite! If they're arranged through a formal, legally established right-wing party or acting through covert ways inside of other parties is a SECONDARY issue. I'm sorry, I thought that was pretty obvious. Why did Lula presented the "Carta ao Povo Brasileiro" after being elected? Why did he have to make a political alliance with PMDB to achieve governability? If there was no right wing, no powerful conservativa forces in Brazil, why would Lula be forced to move his party from left to center-left?

"This way you miss that ARENA of the 1960's and 1970's is not anything like the DEM of today."

They don't kill and don't torture any more (well, some of them still do). Their ideology is the same.

"Regardless of the smears that one side uses against the other, they both are very similar when in power."

That's bullshit. It's just another stereotypical repetition of Brazilian media speech: "Lula surfed in the wave of FHC". The objective is trying to make Brazilians believe that both governments had the same impact in Brazil's development in recent years, and that's absolutely false.

FHC was a puppet of the corporate-government in Washington, he almost sold his entire country to please his neoliberal masters. He never had the intention of making Brazil anything than a corporate-friendly ally of Washington (another Colombia). Even the army didn't like him for finding him too submissive.

Lula, on the other hand, was a statesman.
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. PSDB is very much at the left of your dem party. Wouldn't you agree with that?
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ocpagu Donating Member (154 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. DEM is the heir of a facist party.
so, what's so impressive about their ALLIES, PSDB, being at their left and still being a right-wing party?
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